* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 5:14 ` Philip Webb
@ 2009-12-05 6:47 ` Dale
2009-12-05 13:31 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2009-12-05 6:47 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Philip Webb wrote:
> The defective version of 'patch' had got into 'testing',
> where the only remaining problems are supposed to be in the ebuild;
> in fact in this case, there was still a serious problem upstream
> & that version of 'patch' has been re-masked (I believe).
>
> Anyway, don't do testing on the machine you use for everyday computing.
> If you want to get into testing, use a dedicated machine for it.
>
> It's late Friday, so let me stick my neck out again
> (grins, sighs & gets another beer out of the fridge).
>
> At least once/month, if not once/week, someone reports on Gentoo User:
> "I did an emerge sync, installed the latest blahblah-1.2.3,
> did 'emerge world' & something dreadful has happened to my system".
>
> I've been using Gentoo for more than 6 years & it's never happened to me.
> I believe the reason is that I follow my own advice as above:
> I do install 'testing' versions of non-vital pkgs (eg 'eix')
> & items which are well-supported upstream (eg KDE, kernel),
> but I am very cautious about installing testing versions of system pkgs
> whose collapse would do real damage to my everyday activities.
> Even when stuff is well-supported upstream, I give it a few weeks
> to see if there are reports anywhere of bad things happening.
>
> Eg I have not moved upto the testing 'eix-0.18.3',
> because it requires that I replace 'lzma-utils' with 'xz-utils':
> it's not worth the risk of doing real damage elsewhere
> simply to get the latest version of 'eix', which is useful but non-essential.
> When 'xz-utils' reaches 'stable' (and has a less frightening version number),
> I will happily make the upgrade.
>
> Also, I never do a bald 'emerge world'. I look thro' the output of 'eix-sync',
> write -- with a pencil+paper -- a list of installed pkgs which have changed,
> run 'emerge -Dup world' to see what order of emerging is recommended,
> then individually 'emerge -pv <pkg>' & -- if all looks well -- 'emerge <pkg>'.
> Yes, it takes a bit longer for my weekly update session (tomorrow Sat),
> but I don't risk the nightmare of reducing my system to chaos
> with all the extra frantic labor which would result.
>
> Again, I've been doing this for 6 years with Gentoo on 2 machines
> & haven't run into any major setbacks.
>
> By all means, ignore my advice & do it your own ways (smile).
>
>
I do somewhat similar to you. I just use the -a option instead and I
don't write things down. I just do a emerge -uvDNa world and give it
all a once over, USE flags, what gets updated and if I want it etc etc.
I also run latest on eix, portage and some of its utils. I try to stay
away from unstable system packages as it seems you do as well. I'm
still on baselayout 1 and not planning on the openrc thingy yet either.
May want to get ready tho, it is coming.
I did my first install from a Gentoo 1.4 CD. That was quite a while ago.
Dale
:-) :-)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 5:14 ` Philip Webb
2009-12-05 6:47 ` Dale
@ 2009-12-05 13:31 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2009-12-05 14:10 ` Dale
` (2 more replies)
2009-12-05 16:05 ` daid kahl
2009-12-05 16:26 ` [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug, " Peter Humphrey
3 siblings, 3 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Volker Armin Hemmann @ 2009-12-05 13:31 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Samstag 05 Dezember 2009, Philip Webb wrote:
>
> Also, I never do a bald 'emerge world'. I look thro' the output of
> 'eix-sync', write -- with a pencil+paper -- a list of installed pkgs which
> have changed, run 'emerge -Dup world' to see what order of emerging is
> recommended, then individually 'emerge -pv <pkg>' & -- if all looks well
> -- 'emerge <pkg>'. Yes, it takes a bit longer for my weekly update session
> (tomorrow Sat), but I don't risk the nightmare of reducing my system to
> chaos
> with all the extra frantic labor which would result.
which f*cks up world and is a very bad idea. Really, emmerging every single
package? 'world' is useless for you and cleaning unused deps a nightmare.
Congratulation, you crippled your system.
The easy way to avoid problems are BINPKGs. Use it and a downgrade in case of
problems only takes seconds.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 13:31 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
@ 2009-12-05 14:10 ` Dale
2009-12-05 17:24 ` Neil Bothwick
2009-12-05 15:08 ` Neil Bothwick
2009-12-05 19:09 ` Philip Webb
2 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2009-12-05 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Samstag 05 Dezember 2009, Philip Webb wrote:
>
>
>> Also, I never do a bald 'emerge world'. I look thro' the output of
>> 'eix-sync', write -- with a pencil+paper -- a list of installed pkgs which
>> have changed, run 'emerge -Dup world' to see what order of emerging is
>> recommended, then individually 'emerge -pv <pkg>' & -- if all looks well
>> -- 'emerge <pkg>'. Yes, it takes a bit longer for my weekly update session
>> (tomorrow Sat), but I don't risk the nightmare of reducing my system to
>> chaos
>> with all the extra frantic labor which would result.
>>
>
> which f*cks up world and is a very bad idea. Really, emmerging every single
> package? 'world' is useless for you and cleaning unused deps a nightmare.
>
> Congratulation, you crippled your system.
>
> The easy way to avoid problems are BINPKGs. Use it and a downgrade in case of
> problems only takes seconds.
>
Good catch Volker. I didn't notice that part. He needs to become very
familiar with the -1 option but even that is not good in every case. If
it is a package that needs to be in world, then that option shouldn't be
used either otherwise a --depclean would remove it.
Dale
:-) :-)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 14:10 ` Dale
@ 2009-12-05 17:24 ` Neil Bothwick
2009-12-06 1:15 ` Dale
0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2009-12-05 17:24 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Sat, 05 Dec 2009 08:10:15 -0600, Dale wrote:
> Good catch Volker. I didn't notice that part. He needs to become very
> familiar with the -1 option but even that is not good in every case.
> If it is a package that needs to be in world, then that option
> shouldn't be used either otherwise a --depclean would remove it.
He's updating, so packages that need to be in world are already there.
--
Neil Bothwick
I don't have any solution, but I certainly admire the problem.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 17:24 ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2009-12-06 1:15 ` Dale
2009-12-06 2:21 ` Philip Webb
2009-12-07 10:48 ` Neil Bothwick
0 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2009-12-06 1:15 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Dec 2009 08:10:15 -0600, Dale wrote:
>
>
>> Good catch Volker. I didn't notice that part. He needs to become very
>> familiar with the -1 option but even that is not good in every case.
>> If it is a package that needs to be in world, then that option
>> shouldn't be used either otherwise a --depclean would remove it.
>>
>
> He's updating, so packages that need to be in world are already there.
>
>
If he is using the command he typed in, his world file is going to be
huge. Read what he wrote again. He is doing the updates individually
without a -u or a -1 or anything else. That means every time he
updates, that package goes into the world file.
I'm hoping he typed that in wrong.
Dale
:-) :-)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-06 1:15 ` Dale
@ 2009-12-06 2:21 ` Philip Webb
2009-12-06 2:53 ` daid kahl
2009-12-07 10:48 ` Neil Bothwick
1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread
From: Philip Webb @ 2009-12-06 2:21 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
091205 Dale wrote:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> He's updating, so packages that need to be in world are already there.
> If he is using the command he typed in, his world file is going to be huge.
> He is doing the updates individually without a -u or a -1 or anything else.
> That means every time he updates, that package goes into the world file.
> I'm hoping he typed that in wrong.
I could take a whole day typing in exactly what I do,
but I assumed the otherwise intelligent subscribers to the list
would realise that I add '-1' to those pkgs which are not in 'world'.
My 'world' file contains 112 entries, incl 28 'sys' + 35 'kde'.
Really, does something like that need spelling out (tries to smile) ?
--
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-06 2:21 ` Philip Webb
@ 2009-12-06 2:53 ` daid kahl
2009-12-06 9:06 ` Dale
2009-12-07 10:46 ` Neil Bothwick
0 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: daid kahl @ 2009-12-06 2:53 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
> I could take a whole day typing in exactly what I do,
> but I assumed the otherwise intelligent subscribers to the list
> would realise that I add '-1' to those pkgs which are not in 'world'.
> My 'world' file contains 112 entries, incl 28 'sys' + 35 'kde'.
>
> Really, does something like that need spelling out (tries to smile) ?
It probably doesn't, but since this thread has gotten slightly hot,
I'll only insult myself here.
I forget to add 1 a lot more than I should, and as a result my world
file is probably full of pollution. This isn't to say I don't clean
it out from time to time, but in theory people are just posting
reminders to be sure you weren't forgetting yourself -- I know I'm
guilty of it sometimes.
On that note, I'd like to ask a question I was going to post or email
about. Can I comment the world file. More interestingly, is there a
way to pass portage a comment to stick in world above the package?
This would be really damn useful.
For example, sometimes I'm testing things, and I really do mean to
install a package without oneshot. But I might be installing a bunch
of things to try to get some third-party dependencies resolved, and
later I don't need all them (or I'd like to know why I put it
there!!).
Thoughts?
Regards,
daid
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-06 2:53 ` daid kahl
@ 2009-12-06 9:06 ` Dale
2009-12-07 10:46 ` Neil Bothwick
1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2009-12-06 9:06 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
daid kahl wrote:
>> I could take a whole day typing in exactly what I do,
>> but I assumed the otherwise intelligent subscribers to the list
>> would realise that I add '-1' to those pkgs which are not in 'world'.
>> My 'world' file contains 112 entries, incl 28 'sys' + 35 'kde'.
>>
>> Really, does something like that need spelling out (tries to smile) ?
>>
>
> It probably doesn't, but since this thread has gotten slightly hot,
> I'll only insult myself here.
>
> I forget to add 1 a lot more than I should, and as a result my world
> file is probably full of pollution. This isn't to say I don't clean
> it out from time to time, but in theory people are just posting
> reminders to be sure you weren't forgetting yourself -- I know I'm
> guilty of it sometimes.
>
> On that note, I'd like to ask a question I was going to post or email
> about. Can I comment the world file. More interestingly, is there a
> way to pass portage a comment to stick in world above the package?
> This would be really damn useful.
>
> For example, sometimes I'm testing things, and I really do mean to
> install a package without oneshot. But I might be installing a bunch
> of things to try to get some third-party dependencies resolved, and
> later I don't need all them (or I'd like to know why I put it
> there!!).
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Regards,
> daid
>
I think there was a time when there was no -1 option. At least I didn't
use it at first. Anyway, glad to hear you are using the option
correctly, most of the time anyway. ;-) You have about the same size
world file as me.
Packages installed: 1205
Packages in world: 106
Packages in system: 50
Required packages: 1205
I haven't cleaned mine out in a while tho. It's possible a couple could
have slipped in there.
I to would like to know if comments are permitted in the world file.
The only thing is, some geek has portage putting things in alphabetical
order. I'm not sure how that would work. Would portage put them all in
order or would they even be able to stay with the package the comment
goes with?
Interesting.
Dale
:-) :-)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-06 2:53 ` daid kahl
2009-12-06 9:06 ` Dale
@ 2009-12-07 10:46 ` Neil Bothwick
1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2009-12-07 10:46 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 11:53:41 +0900, daid kahl wrote:
> On that note, I'd like to ask a question I was going to post or email
> about. Can I comment the world file. More interestingly, is there a
> way to pass portage a comment to stick in world above the package?
> This would be really damn useful.
>
> For example, sometimes I'm testing things, and I really do mean to
> install a package without oneshot. But I might be installing a bunch
> of things to try to get some third-party dependencies resolved, and
> later I don't need all them (or I'd like to know why I put it
> there!!).
I use sets for that. Create a file in /etc/portage/sets containing the
atom of the package(s) you want to install. You can either add comments to
this file or give it an explanatory name (or both), then emerge @setname.
I used to use --oneshot for testing, but testing something with a lot of
dependencies made --depclean useless, so I use temporary sets now.
--
Neil Bothwick
I am Barry Norman of the Borg - you will be assimilated - and why not?
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-06 1:15 ` Dale
2009-12-06 2:21 ` Philip Webb
@ 2009-12-07 10:48 ` Neil Bothwick
2009-12-07 11:18 ` Dale
1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2009-12-07 10:48 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Sat, 05 Dec 2009 19:15:29 -0600, Dale wrote:
> >> Good catch Volker. I didn't notice that part. He needs to become
> >> very familiar with the -1 option but even that is not good in every
> >> case. If it is a package that needs to be in world, then that option
> >> shouldn't be used either otherwise a --depclean would remove it.
> > He's updating, so packages that need to be in world are already there.
> If he is using the command he typed in, his world file is going to be
> huge. Read what he wrote again. He is doing the updates individually
> without a -u or a -1 or anything else. That means every time he
> updates, that package goes into the world file.
I read, and understood, what he wrote, even if it turned out to be not
wheat he meant. I was responding to your "If it is a package that needs
to be in world, then that option shouldn't be used either otherwise a
--depclean would remove it." which is not true if the package is already
in world.
--
Neil Bothwick
If Microsoft made cars:
"The airbag system would ask "are you sure?" before deploying."
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-07 10:48 ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2009-12-07 11:18 ` Dale
0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2009-12-07 11:18 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Dec 2009 19:15:29 -0600, Dale wrote:
>
>
>>>> Good catch Volker. I didn't notice that part. He needs to become
>>>> very familiar with the -1 option but even that is not good in every
>>>> case. If it is a package that needs to be in world, then that option
>>>> shouldn't be used either otherwise a --depclean would remove it.
>>>>
>
>
>>> He's updating, so packages that need to be in world are already there.
>>>
>
>
>> If he is using the command he typed in, his world file is going to be
>> huge. Read what he wrote again. He is doing the updates individually
>> without a -u or a -1 or anything else. That means every time he
>> updates, that package goes into the world file.
>>
>
> I read, and understood, what he wrote, even if it turned out to be not
> wheat he meant. I was responding to your "If it is a package that needs
> to be in world, then that option shouldn't be used either otherwise a
> --depclean would remove it." which is not true if the package is already
> in world.
>
I was making the point tho that if it is a new emerge and needs to be in
world, then the -1 option would not add it. If a person them runs
--depclean, it would them remove the package and its dependencies. I
know for me at least, I rarely re-emerge the same package twice by
hand. If I change the USE flags, I let -n catch that. If it is a
update, I let -u catch that.
Dale
:-) :-)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 13:31 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2009-12-05 14:10 ` Dale
@ 2009-12-05 15:08 ` Neil Bothwick
2009-12-05 16:10 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2009-12-05 19:09 ` Philip Webb
2 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2009-12-05 15:08 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 14:31:16 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> The easy way to avoid problems are BINPKGs. Use it and a downgrade in
> case of problems only takes seconds.
Install demerge too and you can roll back to pre-breakage very easily.
--
Neil Bothwick
Old hitchhikers never die-they just throw in the towel.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 15:08 ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2009-12-05 16:10 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Volker Armin Hemmann @ 2009-12-05 16:10 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Samstag 05 Dezember 2009, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 14:31:16 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > The easy way to avoid problems are BINPKGs. Use it and a downgrade in
> > case of problems only takes seconds.
>
> Install demerge too and you can roll back to pre-breakage very easily.
>
of course
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 13:31 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2009-12-05 14:10 ` Dale
2009-12-05 15:08 ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2009-12-05 19:09 ` Philip Webb
2009-12-05 20:14 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2009-12-06 6:19 ` Alan McKinnon
2 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Philip Webb @ 2009-12-05 19:09 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
091205 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Samstag 05 Dezember 2009, Philip Webb wrote:
>> Also, I never do a bald 'emerge world'. I look thro' the output of
>> 'eix-sync', write -- with a pencil+paper -- a list of installed pkgs which
>> have changed, run 'emerge -Dup world' to see what order of emerging is
>> recommended, then individually 'emerge -pv <pkg>' & -- if all looks well
>> -- 'emerge <pkg>'. Yes, it takes a bit longer for my weekly update session
>> (tomorrow Sat), but I don't risk the nightmare of reducing my system to
>> chaos with all the extra frantic labor which would result.
> which f*cks up world and is a very bad idea.
> Really, emerging every single package?
> 'world' is useless for you and cleaning unused deps a nightmare.
Please read what I said & hopefully think briefly before responding.
If the pkg is already in 'world', it's 'emerge <pkg>';
if not -- the more frequent case -- , it's 'emerge -1 <pkg>'.
That keeps everything in order (yes, you have to watch what you do).
> The easy way to avoid problems are BINPKGs.
> Use it and a downgrade in case of problems only takes seconds.
Yes, I do have 'FEATURES="buildsyspkg"' in 'make.conf', of course,
but I've never needed to make use of those emergency files.
My general point is that Gentoo is about managing your own system
rather than relying on someone out there to do it for you;
IMO binary distros are closer to using M$ or Apple than they are to Gentoo
& relying on 'emerge world' is closer to binary distros than to true Gentoo.
'world' is a less important part of Gentoo than many users believe:
IIRC it was imitated from FreeBSD by Gentoo's founder in the early days.
My recommendation is to put a bit more time into regular updates
& thereby reduce the chance that you'll need to fix a major breakdown;
also as said, if you want to do real testing, use a dedicated system
on another partition or (safest) another machine altogether.
Otherwise, thanks for the thoughtful comments by others.
--
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 19:09 ` Philip Webb
@ 2009-12-05 20:14 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2009-12-06 6:20 ` Alan McKinnon
2009-12-06 6:19 ` Alan McKinnon
1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread
From: Volker Armin Hemmann @ 2009-12-05 20:14 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Samstag 05 Dezember 2009, Philip Webb wrote:
> 091205 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Samstag 05 Dezember 2009, Philip Webb wrote:
> >> Also, I never do a bald 'emerge world'. I look thro' the output of
> >> 'eix-sync', write -- with a pencil+paper -- a list of installed pkgs
> >> which have changed, run 'emerge -Dup world' to see what order of
> >> emerging is recommended, then individually 'emerge -pv <pkg>' & -- if
> >> all looks well -- 'emerge <pkg>'. Yes, it takes a bit longer for my
> >> weekly update session (tomorrow Sat), but I don't risk the nightmare of
> >> reducing my system to chaos with all the extra frantic labor which would
> >> result.
> >
> > which f*cks up world and is a very bad idea.
> > Really, emerging every single package?
> > 'world' is useless for you and cleaning unused deps a nightmare.
>
> Please read what I said & hopefully think briefly before responding.
> If the pkg is already in 'world', it's 'emerge <pkg>';
> if not -- the more frequent case -- , it's 'emerge -1 <pkg>'.
> That keeps everything in order (yes, you have to watch what you do).
no, it isn't.
you are adding deps to world file. Deps aren't there until you emerge them
manually.
Look up how world works.
> Yes, I do have 'FEATURES="buildsyspkg"' in 'make.conf', of course,
> but I've never needed to make use of those emergency files.
buildsyspkg is not enough.
>
> My general point is that Gentoo is about managing your own system
> rather than relying on someone out there to do it for you;
there are smart ways to do so and there are stupid ways.
> IMO binary distros are closer to using M$ or Apple than they are to Gentoo
> & relying on 'emerge world' is closer to binary distros than to true
> Gentoo. 'world' is a less important part of Gentoo than many users
> believe
wrong in all counts. Gentoo is about 'giving good tools to get the desired
result'. You are not using the tools. Instead you are working against the
tools and make your life and the work of the tools a lot harder.
And world is important. world is the difference between 'installed manually'
and 'just a dependency'. What you are doing fucks this up. Result:
portage can not figure which package was installed because you want it and
which one is just a dependency that can be removed by depclean.
> : IIRC it was imitated from FreeBSD by Gentoo's founder in the
> early days. My recommendation is to put a bit more time into regular
> updates
no, your advise is to do something stupid that results in a lot more work for
no (!) reward. You gain nothing doing it your way. You just screw up your
system.
> & thereby reduce the chance that you'll need to fix a major breakdown;
no.
You don't reduce anything. In fact, your way increases the chances of an epic
fuckup.
I hope nobody is following your advise.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 20:14 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
@ 2009-12-06 6:20 ` Alan McKinnon
0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2009-12-06 6:20 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Saturday 05 December 2009 22:14:48 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> And world is important. world is the difference between 'installed
> manually' and 'just a dependency'. What you are doing fucks this up.
> Result: portage can not figure which package was installed because you
> want it and which one is just a dependency that can be removed by
> depclean.
>
It also removes portage's ability to manually resolve b blockers
--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 19:09 ` Philip Webb
2009-12-05 20:14 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
@ 2009-12-06 6:19 ` Alan McKinnon
2009-12-06 19:49 ` Philip Webb
1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2009-12-06 6:19 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Saturday 05 December 2009 21:09:50 Philip Webb wrote:
> Please read what I said & hopefully think briefly before responding.
> If the pkg is already in 'world', it's 'emerge <pkg>';
> if not -- the more frequent case -- , it's 'emerge -1 <pkg>'.
> That keeps everything in order (yes, you have to watch what you do).
>
Rather *always* use -1, then you don't have to keep track in your head what is
and isn't in world. You will likely finish your update session with
-p --depclean anyway, so anything that should have gone into world can be
fixed with a quick -n followed by a --depclean for real
Much easier than trying to keep world in your head and avoids world pollution
when you will inevitably get it wrong, which requires you to examine all 128
entries in world and hand-edit the file.
Some things in this world humans are exceptionally bad at and computers are
exceptionally good at. Let portage do what portage does best.
--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-06 6:19 ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2009-12-06 19:49 ` Philip Webb
2009-12-07 11:01 ` Neil Bothwick
0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread
From: Philip Webb @ 2009-12-06 19:49 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
091206 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Saturday 05 December 2009 21:09:50 Philip Webb wrote:
>> Please read what I said & hopefully think briefly before responding.
>> If the pkg is already in 'world', it's 'emerge <pkg>';
>> if not -- the more frequent case -- , it's 'emerge -1 <pkg>'.
>> That keeps everything in order (yes, you have to watch what you do).
> Rather *always* use -1,
> then you don't have to keep track in your head what is and isn't in world.
I know that from my home-made list of pkgs which I have installed,
where they are marked with 'W' & system pkgs with 'S'.
Yes, I do have to keep it upto-date as I do emerges.
One of the major deficiencies of Gentoo is
that it doesn't provide such a file automatically.
> You will likely finish your update session with -p --depclean anyway,
I have never used 'depclean' for anything: reports suggest it's unreliable.
I do regularly use 'equery d <pkg>' & remove pkgs which are not required.
I always move the entry to the 'removed' list in my installed-pkg index,
where I can check for recent removals, if there is a problem (rare).
> Much easier than trying to keep world in your head
> and avoids world pollution when you will inevitably get it wrong,
> which requires you to examine all 128 entries in world & hand-edit it.
As I've tried to make clear, I'm careful when I do my weekly update.
Also, 'eix-sync' output & 'emerge -Dup' show world pkgs in bold type.
> Some things humans are exceptionally bad at and computers are
> exceptionally good at. Let portage do what portage does best.
Portage has improved a lot, but it's still far from perfect.
Machines are servants, humans remain their masters.
As I've said twice already, I've been doing all this for 6 years
& have never run into the problems which are regularly reported by others.
--
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-06 19:49 ` Philip Webb
@ 2009-12-07 11:01 ` Neil Bothwick
2009-12-07 22:46 ` Philip Webb
0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2009-12-07 11:01 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 14:49:44 -0500, Philip Webb wrote:
> I know that from my home-made list of pkgs which I have installed,
> where they are marked with 'W' & system pkgs with 'S'.
> Yes, I do have to keep it upto-date as I do emerges.
> One of the major deficiencies of Gentoo is
> that it doesn't provide such a file automatically.
emerge -p @system
emerge -p @world
--
Neil Bothwick
Velilind's Laws of Experimentation:
1. If reproducibility may be a problem, conduct the test only once.
2. If a straight line fit is required, obtain only two data points.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-07 11:01 ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2009-12-07 22:46 ` Philip Webb
2009-12-07 23:04 ` Alan McKinnon
2009-12-08 1:04 ` Neil Bothwick
0 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Philip Webb @ 2009-12-07 22:46 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
091207 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 14:49:44 -0500, Philip Webb wrote:
>> I know that from my home-made list of pkgs which I have installed,
>> where they are marked with 'W' & system pkgs with 'S'.
>> Yes, I do have to keep it upto-date as I do emerges.
>> One of the major deficiencies of Gentoo is
>> that it doesn't provide such a file automatically.
> emerge -p @system
> emerge -p @world
root:501 ~> emerge -p @system
!!! '@system' is not a valid package atom.
!!! Please check ebuild(5) for full details.
root:502 ~> emerge -p @world
!!! '@world' is not a valid package atom.
!!! Please check ebuild(5) for full details.
'man 5 ebuild' has nothing relevant to '@' 'system' 'world' '-p'.
I'm using the latest stable Portage-2.1.6.3 .
Any further advice ?
Let me emphasise yet again: the way I do things has been successful
on 2 machines for more than 6 years; it's others who have problems
doing it their way & regularly seek advice on this list as a result.
--
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-07 22:46 ` Philip Webb
@ 2009-12-07 23:04 ` Alan McKinnon
2009-12-08 0:17 ` Dale
2009-12-08 11:19 ` Arttu V.
2009-12-08 1:04 ` Neil Bothwick
1 sibling, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2009-12-07 23:04 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Tuesday 08 December 2009 00:46:18 Philip Webb wrote:
> 091207 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 14:49:44 -0500, Philip Webb wrote:
> >> I know that from my home-made list of pkgs which I have installed,
> >> where they are marked with 'W' & system pkgs with 'S'.
> >> Yes, I do have to keep it upto-date as I do emerges.
> >> One of the major deficiencies of Gentoo is
> >> that it doesn't provide such a file automatically.
> >
> > emerge -p @system
> > emerge -p @world
>
> root:501 ~> emerge -p @system
> !!! '@system' is not a valid package atom.
> !!! Please check ebuild(5) for full details.
> root:502 ~> emerge -p @world
> !!! '@world' is not a valid package atom.
> !!! Please check ebuild(5) for full details.
>
> 'man 5 ebuild' has nothing relevant to '@' 'system' 'world' '-p'.
> I'm using the latest stable Portage-2.1.6.3 .
Your version of portage does not support sets.
> Any further advice ?
>
> Let me emphasise yet again: the way I do things has been successful
> on 2 machines for more than 6 years; it's others who have problems
> doing it their way & regularly seek advice on this list as a result.
Let me correct you there:
The experienced old hands here almost uniformly do not have such problems.
It's the n00bs who don't grok portage just yet, or don't know to look inside
ebuilds when the ebuild goes wonky, who have such problems. The classic cause
of problems is mixing stable and testing
--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-07 23:04 ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2009-12-08 0:17 ` Dale
2009-12-08 11:19 ` Arttu V.
1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2009-12-08 0:17 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Tuesday 08 December 2009 00:46:18 Philip Webb wrote:
>
>> 091207 Neil Bothwick wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 14:49:44 -0500, Philip Webb wrote:
>>>
>>>> I know that from my home-made list of pkgs which I have installed,
>>>> where they are marked with 'W' & system pkgs with 'S'.
>>>> Yes, I do have to keep it upto-date as I do emerges.
>>>> One of the major deficiencies of Gentoo is
>>>> that it doesn't provide such a file automatically.
>>>>
>>> emerge -p @system
>>> emerge -p @world
>>>
>> root:501 ~> emerge -p @system
>> !!! '@system' is not a valid package atom.
>> !!! Please check ebuild(5) for full details.
>> root:502 ~> emerge -p @world
>> !!! '@world' is not a valid package atom.
>> !!! Please check ebuild(5) for full details.
>>
>> 'man 5 ebuild' has nothing relevant to '@' 'system' 'world' '-p'.
>> I'm using the latest stable Portage-2.1.6.3 .
>>
>
> Your version of portage does not support sets.
>
>
>> Any further advice ?
>>
>> Let me emphasise yet again: the way I do things has been successful
>> on 2 machines for more than 6 years; it's others who have problems
>> doing it their way & regularly seek advice on this list as a result.
>>
>
> Let me correct you there:
>
> The experienced old hands here almost uniformly do not have such problems.
> It's the n00bs who don't grok portage just yet, or don't know to look inside
> ebuilds when the ebuild goes wonky, who have such problems. The classic cause
> of problems is mixing stable and testing
>
>
OP,
And I would like to mention that portage has changed a LOT in the last
six years. The way you do things apparently has not. That alone could
lead to problems. As software changes, we have to change the way we do
things in order to react to those changes. If we don't, then we could
run into problems. I first installed Gentoo from a 1.4 CD so I been
around about the same amount of time you have. Portage has changed a
whole lot since then. The way I do things has changed as well. I don't
think revdep-rebuild even existed back then. I use it regularly now.
Portage has a lot of options now that it didn't have back then. They
are there because they are needed and useful in certain situations.
Using Gentoo basically requires you to stay up to date. Getting behind
can come back to bite you. That can be said about a lot of situations
with Gentoo, both in updating the OS and updating ourselves as well.
Dale
:-) :-)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-07 23:04 ` Alan McKinnon
2009-12-08 0:17 ` Dale
@ 2009-12-08 11:19 ` Arttu V.
1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Arttu V. @ 2009-12-08 11:19 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 12/8/09, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Let me emphasise yet again: the way I do things has been successful
>> on 2 machines for more than 6 years; it's others who have problems
>> doing it their way & regularly seek advice on this list as a result.
>
> Let me correct you there:
>
> The experienced old hands here almost uniformly do not have such problems.
> It's the n00bs who don't grok portage just yet, or don't know to look inside
> ebuilds when the ebuild goes wonky, who have such problems. The classic
> cause of problems is mixing stable and testing
I think Mr. Webb might be running his gentoo systems like they were
some Slackware boxes. I sure run mine like they were Windows/Red
Hat/Ubuntu mongrels. Praise the FSM and his noodly appendages for live
cds, for times when installs go bad! :)
"Dependency management is left up to the sysadmin, and that's the way
we like it." [1]
[1] http://www.slackbook.org/html/package-management.html
Habits learned on other systems (Red Hat, Slackware, Ubuntu, OS X, MS
Windows etc) are hard to "un-learn" if they don't break anything in
your current system. You just keep on trucking like before.
--
Arttu V.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-07 22:46 ` Philip Webb
2009-12-07 23:04 ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2009-12-08 1:04 ` Neil Bothwick
1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2009-12-08 1:04 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1500 bytes --]
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:46:18 -0500, Philip Webb wrote:
> >> One of the major deficiencies of Gentoo is
> >> that it doesn't provide such a file automatically.
> > emerge -p @system
> > emerge -p @world
>
> root:501 ~> emerge -p @system
> !!! '@system' is not a valid package atom.
> !!! Please check ebuild(5) for full details.
> root:502 ~> emerge -p @world
> !!! '@world' is not a valid package atom.
> !!! Please check ebuild(5) for full details.
>
> 'man 5 ebuild' has nothing relevant to '@' 'system' 'world' '-p'.
> I'm using the latest stable Portage-2.1.6.3 .
>
> Any further advice ?
Sets are not available in stable portage but have been working well in
testing for over a year.
> Let me emphasise yet again: the way I do things has been successful
> on 2 machines for more than 6 years; it's others who have problems
> doing it their way & regularly seek advice on this list as a result.
That doesn't mean it would work for others, especially if they followed
your advice and messed up their world file. Your way basically consists
of treating portage with a great deal of mistrust and keeping paper
records of everything you permit it to do, after laboriously checking
what it tells you it wants to do.
Plenty of people let portage get on with the job it is supposed to do
without any significant breakage.
--
Neil Bothwick
You are about to give someone a piece of your mind,
something you can ill afford...
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 5:14 ` Philip Webb
2009-12-05 6:47 ` Dale
2009-12-05 13:31 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
@ 2009-12-05 16:05 ` daid kahl
2009-12-05 16:26 ` [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug, " Peter Humphrey
3 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: daid kahl @ 2009-12-05 16:05 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
>>> 2 pieces of advice to avoid such problems:
>>> (1) never use the 'testing' versions of system pkgs;
>>> (2) never run 'emerge world' without the '-p' flag.
>> I kindly disagree.
>
>> ~[arch] is testing for Gentoo ebuild. It's considered stable upstream.
>> This was an upstream bug, not a Gentoo bug.
>
> Yes, my comments didn't respond exactly to the problem reported,
> but offered more general advice which might help avoid such problems.
>
>> someone's got to be testing stuff and filing reports upstream.
>> It doesn't mean you want to do it, but I really think
>> considering ~ as a test of upstream is rather silly.
>
> The defective version of 'patch' had got into 'testing',
> where the only remaining problems are supposed to be in the ebuild;
> in fact in this case, there was still a serious problem upstream
> & that version of 'patch' has been re-masked (I believe).
>
> Anyway, don't do testing on the machine you use for everyday computing.
> If you want to get into testing, use a dedicated machine for it.
My point is that using things out of portage, stable or unstable,
shouldn't be considered as testing, as they are upstream stable
releases. Doing testing is getting the latest stuff out of git, etc.
Of course, there will be bugs in upstream stable code as well, but
that's life I suppose.
> I've been using Gentoo for more than 6 years & it's never happened to me.
> I believe the reason is that I follow my own advice as above:
> I do install 'testing' versions of non-vital pkgs (eg 'eix')
> & items which are well-supported upstream (eg KDE, kernel),
> but I am very cautious about installing testing versions of system pkgs
> whose collapse would do real damage to my everyday activities.
> Even when stuff is well-supported upstream, I give it a few weeks
> to see if there are reports anywhere of bad things happening.
There's nothing wrong with running stable gentoo, but as others have
commented, one ought to be careful about mixing and matching, for
example, ~x86 and x86. Running a stable base system with unstable
packages can also lead to a lot of problems, since the code is never
really considered to run together on the same system.
Although I've only been at Gentoo about half the amount of time, I've
run full stable and unstable systems, and I can't say there is much
difference in my experience. If I had to generalize, I'd say that on
unstable I might hit more bugs, but figuring out what to do to fix the
problem is usually much faster. I was planning to switch back soon,
actually.
One can think of ~arch as either bad because it's so-called unstable,
or good because you don't wait 6 months to get something like Firefox
3.5.
I use a similar approach to you, and run EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--ask --verbose"
If anything looks suspicious, not only will I take note with paper,
but I'll likely be sure to get a fresh system backup first as well
before proceeding.
Regards,
daid
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug, Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 5:14 ` Philip Webb
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2009-12-05 16:05 ` daid kahl
@ 2009-12-05 16:26 ` Peter Humphrey
2009-12-06 10:59 ` Peter Humphrey
2009-12-06 14:11 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
3 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Peter Humphrey @ 2009-12-05 16:26 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user, gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
On 5/12/2009, "Philip Webb" <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:
>Anyway, don't do testing on the machine you use for everyday computing.
>If you want to get into testing, use a dedicated machine for it.
I've been using a separate partition on an existing machine to run a
~amd64 system for evaluation, and yesterday I got my comeuppance. I
wanted to go back to an earlier backup of the test system*, so I took a
backup of my home directory with its e-mail history, wiped the partition
and restored the old backup followed by the home directory. Wrong. I'd
mixed the home directories of the two systems and so I lost the last
five weeks' worth of e-mails.
And no, I hadn't been drinking or getting over-tired. Just goes to show
- you can't be too careful.
* The current test system had a series of KDE-4 problems, which I thought
must have been caused by the patch bug, but simply remerging everything
installed since then hadn't fixed them.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 16:26 ` [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug, " Peter Humphrey
@ 2009-12-06 10:59 ` Peter Humphrey
2009-12-06 14:11 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Peter Humphrey @ 2009-12-06 10:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Saturday 05 December 2009 16:26:48 I wrote:
> * The current test system had a series of KDE-4 problems, which I thought
> must have been caused by the patch bug, but simply remerging everything
> installed since then hadn't fixed them.
Not only has it not fixed the earlier problems - now I have no keyboard or
mouse, and yes I did reinstall all the X drivers. So yesterday's nine hours
of emerging is all for nothing. I think that whole system is going in the bin
and I'll revert to my kde-sunset system.
--
Rgds
Peter
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug
2009-12-05 16:26 ` [gentoo-user] Re: Heads up: Your system might be broken and/or insecure due to serious patch-2.6 bug, " Peter Humphrey
2009-12-06 10:59 ` Peter Humphrey
@ 2009-12-06 14:11 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread
From: Volker Armin Hemmann @ 2009-12-06 14:11 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Samstag 05 Dezember 2009, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On 5/12/2009, "Philip Webb" <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:
> >Anyway, don't do testing on the machine you use for everyday computing.
> >If you want to get into testing, use a dedicated machine for it.
>
> I've been using a separate partition on an existing machine to run a
> ~amd64 system for evaluation, and yesterday I got my comeuppance. I
> wanted to go back to an earlier backup of the test system*, so I took a
> backup of my home directory with its e-mail history, wiped the partition
> and restored the old backup followed by the home directory. Wrong. I'd
> mixed the home directories of the two systems and so I lost the last
> five weeks' worth of e-mails.
>
> And no, I hadn't been drinking or getting over-tired. Just goes to show
> - you can't be too careful.
>
> * The current test system had a series of KDE-4 problems, which I thought
> must have been caused by the patch bug, but simply remerging everything
> installed since then hadn't fixed them.
>
well, I had (1!) problem after updating to KDE 4.3.4. Konsole's fonts looked
ugly and the cursor was misplaced to the right by one 'space'.
Rebuilding everything emerged after patch-2.6 (which included kde, qt and a
lot of other stuff), solved that problem.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread