[gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Mick]

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I should know how to do this ...

It isn't as simple as commenting out vc7 in /etc/securetty, right?  The 
persistent offenders would try to start another X session on a different vc.

Is there a trick I could add in /etc/pam.d/login or one of the /etc/pam.d/gdm* 
files perhaps?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Dirk Heinrichs]

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Am Donnerstag 12 November 2009 21:01:45 schrieb Mick:

> Is there a trick I could add in /etc/pam.d/login or one of the
>  /etc/pam.d/gdm* files perhaps?

Use kdm and set "AllowRootLogin=false" in /usr/share/config/kdm/kdmrc.

HTH...

	Dirk

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Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Mick]

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On Thursday 12 November 2009 20:39:41 Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> Am Donnerstag 12 November 2009 21:01:45 schrieb Mick:
> > Is there a trick I could add in /etc/pam.d/login or one of the
> >  /etc/pam.d/gdm* files perhaps?
> 
> Use kdm and set "AllowRootLogin=false" in /usr/share/config/kdm/kdmrc.

Thanks, but the box in question is running Gnome.  What would be its 
equivalent file?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Dirk Heinrichs]

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Am Donnerstag 12 November 2009 21:56:48 schrieb Mick:

> Thanks, but the box in question is running Gnome.

So what? Nothing stops you from starting a gnome session via kdm.

Bye...

	Dirk

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Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Paul Hartman]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> I should know how to do this ...
>
> It isn't as simple as commenting out vc7 in /etc/securetty, right?  The
> persistent offenders would try to start another X session on a different vc.
>
> Is there a trick I could add in /etc/pam.d/login or one of the /etc/pam.d/gdm*
> files perhaps?

How do you start X? Do you use xdm/kdm/gdm or do you just "startx" or
use some other method?

Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Mick]

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On Thursday 12 November 2009 21:34:24 Paul Hartman wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I should know how to do this ...
> >
> > It isn't as simple as commenting out vc7 in /etc/securetty, right?  The
> > persistent offenders would try to start another X session on a different
> > vc.
> >
> > Is there a trick I could add in /etc/pam.d/login or one of the
> > /etc/pam.d/gdm* files perhaps?
> 
> How do you start X? Do you use xdm/kdm/gdm or do you just "startx" or
> use some other method?

This box is configured to start X with gdm and it does not have kdm installed.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thursday 12 November 2009 23:46:27 Mick wrote:
> On Thursday 12 November 2009 21:34:24 Paul Hartman wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I should know how to do this ...
> > >
> > > It isn't as simple as commenting out vc7 in /etc/securetty, right?  The
> > > persistent offenders would try to start another X session on a
> > > different vc.
> > >
> > > Is there a trick I could add in /etc/pam.d/login or one of the
> > > /etc/pam.d/gdm* files perhaps?
> >
> > How do you start X? Do you use xdm/kdm/gdm or do you just "startx" or
> > use some other method?
> 
> This box is configured to start X with gdm and it does not have kdm
>  installed.
> 


http://www.google.com/search?q=block+root+login+gdm&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Hits #1, 2 and 3

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Alan McKinnon]

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Gdm itself has a config option to disallow root logins

On Nov 12, 2009 10:02 PM, "Mick" <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:

I should know how to do this ...

It isn't as simple as commenting out vc7 in /etc/securetty, right?  The
persistent offenders would try to start another X session on a different vc.

Is there a trick I could add in /etc/pam.d/login or one of the
/etc/pam.d/gdm*
files perhaps?
--
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Mick]

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On Thursday 12 November 2009 21:56:00 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Thursday 12 November 2009 23:46:27 Mick wrote:
> > On Thursday 12 November 2009 21:34:24 Paul Hartman wrote:
> > > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I should know how to do this ...
> > > >
> > > > It isn't as simple as commenting out vc7 in /etc/securetty, right? 
> > > > The persistent offenders would try to start another X session on a
> > > > different vc.
> > > >
> > > > Is there a trick I could add in /etc/pam.d/login or one of the
> > > > /etc/pam.d/gdm* files perhaps?
> > >
> > > How do you start X? Do you use xdm/kdm/gdm or do you just "startx" or
> > > use some other method?
> >
> > This box is configured to start X with gdm and it does not have kdm
> >  installed.
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?q=block+root+login+gdm&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
> 
> Hits #1, 2 and 3

Thank you Alan, hadn't seen #1 which aligns with #3.  It seems legit so I will 
try this in /etc/pam.d/gdm:

auth required pam_succeed_if.so user != root quiet

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Mick]

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On Thursday 12 November 2009 22:09:01 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Gdm itself has a config option to disallow root logins

Ahh, unfortunately I can only access it remotely via ssh at this stage.  
Hopefully the pam method will work fine.

Thanks again.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Iain Buchanan]

On Thu, 2009-11-12 at 22:18 +0000, Mick wrote:
> On Thursday 12 November 2009 22:09:01 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Gdm itself has a config option to disallow root logins
> 
> Ahh, unfortunately I can only access it remotely via ssh at this stage.  
> Hopefully the pam method will work fine.

You don't need anything more to configure gdm than ssh access - this is
Linux after all & a good program has text based configurations :)

Edit /etc/X11/gdm/custom.conf

In the section [security] add:
AllowRoot=false

You may then have to restart xdm.

However, if someone has the root password to log in to X, then what's to
stop them changing anything you do now?

-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

BOFH Excuse #112:

The monitor is plugged into the serial port

Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Zeerak Waseem]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:08:18 +0100, Iain Buchanan <iaindb@netspace.net.au>  
wrote:

> However, if someone has the root password to log in to X, then what's to
> stop them changing anything you do now?
>

I've been wondering about the very same thing... Perhaps it's just to only  
have a root shell and not an entire DE running as root. That's my only  
(read: only useful) suggestion as to why. Because like you Iain, if  
someone has the password, they could just undo the changes :-)

-- 
Zeerak

Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Paul Hartman]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday 12 November 2009 21:34:24 Paul Hartman wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I should know how to do this ...
>> >
>> > It isn't as simple as commenting out vc7 in /etc/securetty, right?  The
>> > persistent offenders would try to start another X session on a different
>> > vc.
>> >
>> > Is there a trick I could add in /etc/pam.d/login or one of the
>> > /etc/pam.d/gdm* files perhaps?
>>
>> How do you start X? Do you use xdm/kdm/gdm or do you just "startx" or
>> use some other method?
>
> This box is configured to start X with gdm and it does not have kdm installed.

From what I've read, root logins are disabled by default in gdm.

Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Mick]

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On Thursday 12 November 2009 23:08:18 Iain Buchanan wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-11-12 at 22:18 +0000, Mick wrote:
> > On Thursday 12 November 2009 22:09:01 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > Gdm itself has a config option to disallow root logins
> >
> > Ahh, unfortunately I can only access it remotely via ssh at this stage.
> > Hopefully the pam method will work fine.
> 
> You don't need anything more to configure gdm than ssh access - this is
> Linux after all & a good program has text based configurations :)
> 
> Edit /etc/X11/gdm/custom.conf
> 
> In the section [security] add:
> AllowRoot=false

Thanks for this!  :-)

> You may then have to restart xdm.
> 
> However, if someone has the root password to log in to X, then what's to
> stop them changing anything you do now?

Know how?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Joshua Murphy]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday 12 November 2009 23:08:18 Iain Buchanan wrote:
>> On Thu, 2009-11-12 at 22:18 +0000, Mick wrote:
>> > On Thursday 12 November 2009 22:09:01 Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> > > Gdm itself has a config option to disallow root logins
>> >
>> > Ahh, unfortunately I can only access it remotely via ssh at this stage.
>> > Hopefully the pam method will work fine.
>>
>> You don't need anything more to configure gdm than ssh access - this is
>> Linux after all & a good program has text based configurations :)
>>
>> Edit /etc/X11/gdm/custom.conf
>>
>> In the section [security] add:
>> AllowRoot=false
>
> Thanks for this!  :-)
>
>> You may then have to restart xdm.
>>
>> However, if someone has the root password to log in to X, then what's to
>> stop them changing anything you do now?
>
> Know how?
> --
> Regards,
> Mick

Approach security a little more sanely and don't give untrusted users
root access? If you have to take steps to restrict the root account,
you need to rethink who has use of it. Preventing damage in the event
that the system *does* get compromised is one thing, but trying to
control someone who is *given* access to root on the software side is
the wrong approach, in my incredibly non-humble opinion.

-- 
Poison [BLX]
Joshua M. Murphy

Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Joshua Murphy]

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 2:01 AM, Joshua Murphy <poisonbl@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday 12 November 2009 23:08:18 Iain Buchanan wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2009-11-12 at 22:18 +0000, Mick wrote:
>>> > On Thursday 12 November 2009 22:09:01 Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>> > > Gdm itself has a config option to disallow root logins
>>> >
>>> > Ahh, unfortunately I can only access it remotely via ssh at this stage.
>>> > Hopefully the pam method will work fine.
>>>
>>> You don't need anything more to configure gdm than ssh access - this is
>>> Linux after all & a good program has text based configurations :)
>>>
>>> Edit /etc/X11/gdm/custom.conf
>>>
>>> In the section [security] add:
>>> AllowRoot=false
>>
>> Thanks for this!  :-)
>>
>>> You may then have to restart xdm.
>>>
>>> However, if someone has the root password to log in to X, then what's to
>>> stop them changing anything you do now?
>>
>> Know how?
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Mick
>
> Approach security a little more sanely and don't give untrusted users
> root access? If you have to take steps to restrict the root account,
> you need to rethink who has use of it. Preventing damage in the event
> that the system *does* get compromised is one thing, but trying to
> control someone who is *given* access to root on the software side is
> the wrong approach, in my incredibly non-humble opinion.
>
> --
> Poison [BLX]
> Joshua M. Murphy

And, a quick note on the case that the intent is to prevent the level
of damage in the event of a compromised root account, give this a
quick read over and google any terms you're not certain of the meaning
of:

Linux.com :: Securing Linux with Mandatory Access Controls
http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/113941

-- 
Poison [BLX]
Joshua M. Murphy

[gentoo-user] Re: Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 11/12/2009 10:01 PM, Mick wrote:
> I should know how to do this ...
>
> It isn't as simple as commenting out vc7 in /etc/securetty, right?  The
> persistent offenders would try to start another X session on a different vc.
>
> Is there a trick I could add in /etc/pam.d/login or one of the /etc/pam.d/gdm*
> files perhaps?

You cannot impose any restrictions to the root user.  root is 
unrestricted by definition.  It's useless to even start thinking about 
trying.  What you *can* do, is give them a VPS inside of which they are 
root.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Dirk Heinrichs]

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Am Samstag 14 November 2009 10:21:35 schrieb Nikos Chantziaras:

> You cannot impose any restrictions to the root user.  root is 
> unrestricted by definition.  It's useless to even start thinking about 
> trying.

Ever heard about SELinux?

Bye...

	Dirk

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[gentoo-user] Re: Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 11/14/2009 12:12 PM, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> Am Samstag 14 November 2009 10:21:35 schrieb Nikos Chantziaras:
>
>> You cannot impose any restrictions to the root user.  root is
>> unrestricted by definition.  It's useless to even start thinking about
>> trying.
>
> Ever heard about SELinux?
>
> Bye...

Ever heard about make menuconfig?

Bye...

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 14 November 2009 17:13:04 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 11/14/2009 12:12 PM, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> > Am Samstag 14 November 2009 10:21:35 schrieb Nikos Chantziaras:
> >> You cannot impose any restrictions to the root user.  root is
> >> unrestricted by definition.  It's useless to even start thinking about
> >> trying.
> >
> > Ever heard about SELinux?
> >
> > Bye...
> 
> Ever heard about make menuconfig?

Or:

Ever heard about keyboard, power switch, terminal and the ability to touch all 
three?

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Mick]

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On Saturday 14 November 2009 07:01:19 Joshua Murphy wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday 12 November 2009 23:08:18 Iain Buchanan wrote:
> >> On Thu, 2009-11-12 at 22:18 +0000, Mick wrote:
> >> > On Thursday 12 November 2009 22:09:01 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >> > > Gdm itself has a config option to disallow root logins
> >> >
> >> > Ahh, unfortunately I can only access it remotely via ssh at this
> >> > stage. Hopefully the pam method will work fine.
> >>
> >> You don't need anything more to configure gdm than ssh access - this is
> >> Linux after all & a good program has text based configurations :)
> >>
> >> Edit /etc/X11/gdm/custom.conf
> >>
> >> In the section [security] add:
> >> AllowRoot=false
> >
> > Thanks for this!  :-)
> >
> >> You may then have to restart xdm.
> >>
> >> However, if someone has the root password to log in to X, then what's to
> >> stop them changing anything you do now?
> >
> > Know how?
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Mick
> 
> Approach security a little more sanely and don't give untrusted users
> root access? If you have to take steps to restrict the root account,
> you need to rethink who has use of it. Preventing damage in the event
> that the system *does* get compromised is one thing, but trying to
> control someone who is *given* access to root on the software side is
> the wrong approach, in my incredibly non-humble opinion.

You are right of course, but in this particular case the guy who *pays* wants 
to have root access.  So, I'm just trying to find an easy way to protect him 
from himself.  Initially I implemented SELinux, but had to pull that back 
because I couldn't in any quick way get Nagios cgi working with it.  One day I 
may find some time to get back to it.

Thanks again.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Dirk Heinrichs]

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Am Samstag 14 November 2009 16:13:04 schrieb Nikos Chantziaras:

> Ever heard about make menuconfig?

???

Bye...

	Dirk

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Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 14 November 2009 21:32:39 Mick wrote:
> > Approach security a little more sanely and don't give untrusted users
> > root access? If you have to take steps to restrict the root account,
> > you need to rethink who has use of it. Preventing damage in the event
> > that the system does get compromised is one thing, but trying to
> > control someone who is given access to root on the software side is
> > the wrong approach, in my incredibly non-humble opinion.
> 
> You are right of course, but in this particular case the guy who pays
>  wants  to have root access.

And you agreed to work like that?

So when he fucks things up good royal and proper, will he gladly accept his 
shafting and pay you more to undo it? Or will he do the usual customer stunt 
and blame you?

I only work under one of two conditions:

I am root and the customer is not.
The customer is root and I am not.

>  So, I'm just trying to find an easy way to
>  protect him from himself.  Initially I implemented SELinux, but had to
>  pull that back because I couldn't in any quick way get Nagios cgi working
>  with it.  One day I may find some time to get back to it.
 

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 14 November 2009 22:46:18 Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> Am Samstag 14 November 2009 16:13:04 schrieb Nikos Chantziaras:
> > Ever heard about make menuconfig?
> 
> ???

The account foolishly being "prevented" from bypassing SELinux is root.

So, configure a new kernel, disable SELinux, build, install, reboot.

Voila! No SELinux.

Or,

Edit grub.conf, reboot.

Voila! No SELinux.

Or, (as SELinux can be used to prevent access to grub.conf)

Just hit the damn power button and edit the kernel options in the grub command 
line.

Voila! No SELinux.

Lessons learned:

Trying to prevent root from doing $STUFF on a pc is utterly and completely 
pointless and simply will not succeed, ever. There is hardware where this can 
be done, but it's not a PC, has no Intel designs in it and is often truly 
secured with armed guards.

trying to prevent root from doing $STUFF on Unix is utterly and completely 
pointless and simply will not succeed, ever. There are OSes where this can be 
done, but they are not Unix. By definition, on Unix root can do anything, 
including bypassing systems to prevent root from doing anything.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Stroller]

On 14 Nov 2009, at 20:46, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> ...
>> You are right of course, but in this particular case the guy who pays
>> wants  to have root access.
>
> And you agreed to work like that?
>
> So when he fucks things up good royal and proper, will he gladly  
> accept his
> shafting and pay you more to undo it? Or will he do the usual  
> customer stunt
> and blame you?

My typical experience is that the customer will take it completely on  
the chin and pay me to fix the problems. That doesn't make foul-ups  
due to such unnecessary meddling any less frustrating, though.

> I only work under one of two conditions:
>
> I am root and the customer is not.
> The customer is root and I am not.

This is clearly the "right" way to operate, however it can be  
extremely difficult to walk away from your largest-paying contract,  
just because the owner sees this particular issue differently.

One has to hope, really, that the client only wants the root password  
as insurance in case you get run over by a bus, and won't use it to  
arbitrarily mess about on the system.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Dale]

Stroller wrote:
>
> On 14 Nov 2009, at 20:46, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>> ...
>>> You are right of course, but in this particular case the guy who pays
>>> wants  to have root access.
>>
>> And you agreed to work like that?
>>
>> So when he fucks things up good royal and proper, will he gladly 
>> accept his
>> shafting and pay you more to undo it? Or will he do the usual 
>> customer stunt
>> and blame you?
>
> My typical experience is that the customer will take it completely on 
> the chin and pay me to fix the problems. That doesn't make foul-ups 
> due to such unnecessary meddling any less frustrating, though.
>
>> I only work under one of two conditions:
>>
>> I am root and the customer is not.
>> The customer is root and I am not.
>
> This is clearly the "right" way to operate, however it can be 
> extremely difficult to walk away from your largest-paying contract, 
> just because the owner sees this particular issue differently.
>
> One has to hope, really, that the client only wants the root password 
> as insurance in case you get run over by a bus, and won't use it to 
> arbitrarily mess about on the system.
>
> Stroller.
>
>
>

I would do one thing and take it as often as possible, a large CYA 
pill.  I had this situation with a friend once a few years ago, trust 
me, it's a lot easier to blame someone else than yourself.  System logs 
saved me since they pointed to him instead of me. 

That pill should contain logs, notes and anything else that can be used 
to protect yourself.  When a scapegoat is needed, you're it.  That said, 
I sort of think you see this already. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 15 November 2009 07:15:43 Stroller wrote:
> On 14 Nov 2009, at 20:46, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >> ...
> >> You are right of course, but in this particular case the guy who pays
> >> wants  to have root access.
> >
> > And you agreed to work like that?
> >
> > So when he fucks things up good royal and proper, will he gladly
> > accept his
> > shafting and pay you more to undo it? Or will he do the usual
> > customer stunt
> > and blame you?
> 
> My typical experience is that the customer will take it completely on
> the chin and pay me to fix the problems. That doesn't make foul-ups
> due to such unnecessary meddling any less frustrating, though.

My experience has been completely the opposite, same with just about everyone 
else I work with. But, this is a third-world country pretending to be a first-
world country, and the cowboy attitude is very prevalent here.

> One has to hope, really, that the client only wants the root password
> as insurance in case you get run over by a bus, and won't use it to
> arbitrarily mess about on the system.

I find the root password in a sealed envelope in the safe is the ideal 
insurance for that.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:15:43 +0000, Stroller wrote:

> > So when he fucks things up good royal and proper, will he gladly  
> > accept his
> > shafting and pay you more to undo it? Or will he do the usual  
> > customer stunt
> > and blame you?  
> 
> My typical experience is that the customer will take it completely on  
> the chin and pay me to fix the problems. That doesn't make foul-ups  
> due to such unnecessary meddling any less frustrating, though.

Why not use sudo to give the customer's account almost full root access?
Not only does this allow you to restrict which damaging commands he can
run but sudo logs each command it runs, so you have CYA insurance.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Dirk Heinrichs]

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Am Samstag 14 November 2009 23:50:42 schrieb Alan McKinnon:

> On Saturday 14 November 2009 22:46:18 Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> > Am Samstag 14 November 2009 16:13:04 schrieb Nikos Chantziaras:
> > > Ever heard about make menuconfig?
> >
> > ???
> 
> The account foolishly being "prevented" from bypassing SELinux is root.
> 
> So, configure a new kernel, disable SELinux, build, install, reboot.
> 
> Voila! No SELinux.
> 
> Or,
> 
> Edit grub.conf, reboot.
> 
> Voila! No SELinux.
> 
> Or, (as SELinux can be used to prevent access to grub.conf)
> 
> Just hit the damn power button and edit the kernel options in the grub
>  command line.

Compile in kernel options, configure the kernel not to accept additional ones. 
Damn power button rendered useless.

> Trying to prevent root from doing $STUFF on a pc is utterly and completely
> pointless and simply will not succeed, ever. There is hardware where this
>  can be done, but it's not a PC, has no Intel designs in it and is often
>  truly secured with armed guards.

This all implies physical access to the machine, right?

> trying to prevent root from doing $STUFF on Unix is utterly and completely
> pointless and simply will not succeed, ever. There are OSes where this can
>  be done, but they are not Unix. By definition, on Unix root can do
>  anything, including bypassing systems to prevent root from doing anything.

SELinux allows to spread the tasks root needs to do or can do accross several 
roles. Of course, if only one single person has root access to the system this 
doesn't make sense. But we're talking about cases where several people (incl. 
the malicious attacker) have root access. So you can very well configure a 
(SE-)Linux system so that "root" can't do everything.

Bye...

	Dirk

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Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 15 November 2009 10:52:51 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:15:43 +0000, Stroller wrote:
> > > So when he fucks things up good royal and proper, will he gladly
> > > accept his
> > > shafting and pay you more to undo it? Or will he do the usual
> > > customer stunt
> > > and blame you?
> >
> > My typical experience is that the customer will take it completely on
> > the chin and pay me to fix the problems. That doesn't make foul-ups
> > due to such unnecessary meddling any less frustrating, though.
> 
> Why not use sudo to give the customer's account almost full root access?
> Not only does this allow you to restrict which damaging commands he can
> run but sudo logs each command it runs, so you have CYA insurance.

Double CYA insurance:

Send all logs to a remote syslog server. The user with sudo permissions can 
still disable logging, but you have untouchable evidence that he did :-)
 

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Stroller]

On 15 Nov 2009, at 08:26, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> ...
>> My typical experience is that the customer will take it completely on
>> the chin and pay me to fix the problems. That doesn't make foul-ups
>> due to such unnecessary meddling any less frustrating, though.
>
> My experience has been completely the opposite, same with just about  
> everyone
> else I work with. But, this is a third-world country pretending to  
> be a first-
> world country, and the cowboy attitude is very prevalent here.

I certainly have had some customers like that, but generally they're a  
minority here. Definitely preferable is to spot them early and _follow  
your instinct_ to  ditch them. The longer you entertain this rubbish  
the more of a headache it becomes.

>> One has to hope, really, that the client only wants the root password
>> as insurance in case you get run over by a bus, and won't use it to
>> arbitrarily mess about on the system.
>
> I find the root password in a sealed envelope in the safe is the ideal
> insurance for that.

Totally agree.

My biggest customer, unfortunately, has taken on a large investment of  
capital recently, resulting in a new director who's really pretty  
clueless. Basically, his dad bought him a job. He has insisted on  
Domain Administrator rights because he "just wants to do the simple  
stuff" himself; the first program he wanted to upgrade he needed my  
help with because the installer is a piece of junk. I know that he's  
going to mess things up and cost himself more money (create more  
hassles for me) in the long term, but he won't hear it and I can't  
just walk away; this is not only because I have a great relationship  
with the other owner and also because they're currently a significant  
proportion of my annual income.

He's totally a nice bloke otherwise, he just feels that I shouldn't be  
"locking him out" of his own computers, and I can kinda see his point  
- as an admin it's easy for me to feel "territorial" because I'm  
pretty good at the job, so the chances are that anyone else isn't  
going to meet my standard. Obviously it's important for me to put that  
to one side.

>>> So when he fucks things up good royal and proper, will he gladly  
>>> accept his shafting and pay you more to undo it? Or will he do the  
>>> usualcustomer stuntand blame you?

This is actually much easier for those of us who are mere  
"consultants" and who charge by the hour - we can simply reply "it was  
working when i left, guv". If it's been working fine for months then  
there is obviously nothing wrong with our previous work. Clearly there  
is room for contention if they muck about with things right after  
you've left.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:52:41 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > Why not use sudo to give the customer's account almost full root
> > access? Not only does this allow you to restrict which damaging
> > commands he can run but sudo logs each command it runs, so you have
> > CYA insurance.  
> 
> Double CYA insurance:
> 
> Send all logs to a remote syslog server. The user with sudo permissions
> can still disable logging, but you have untouchable evidence that he
> did :-) 

That's one approach. The other is to give sudo access only for what he
needs, which doesn't include disabling logging or many other things.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 39: Almost exactly

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[gentoo-user] Re: Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 11/15/2009 11:22 AM, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
>
> SELinux allows to spread the tasks root needs to do or can do accross several
> roles. Of course, if only one single person has root access to the system this
> doesn't make sense. But we're talking about cases where several people (incl.
> the malicious attacker) have root access. So you can very well configure a
> (SE-)Linux system so that "root" can't do everything.

So how do you get your machine back if you forbid yourself to change its 
configuration then?

Re: [gentoo-user] Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 15 November 2009 14:47:14 Stroller wrote:
> > I find the root password in a sealed envelope in the safe is the ideal
> > insurance for that.
> 
> Totally agree.
> 
> My biggest customer, unfortunately, has taken on a large investment of  
> capital recently, resulting in a new director who's really pretty  
> clueless. Basically, his dad bought him a job. He has insisted on  
> Domain Administrator rights because he "just wants to do the simple  
> stuff" himself; the first program he wanted to upgrade he needed my  
> help with because the installer is a piece of junk. I know that he's  
> going to mess things up and cost himself more money (create more  
> hassles for me) in the long term, but he won't hear it and I can't  
> just walk away; this is not only because I have a great relationship  
> with the other owner and also because they're currently a significant  
> proportion of my annual income.
> 

And you think being a "Company Director" carries any weight at all?

Tut, tut, young fellow. You have a lot to learn :-)

Tell him you will give him administrator rights if, and only if, he can 
successfully solve a problem you set up. Make it something fair ( you are not 
unreasonable after all).

If he fails at this, then you reduce his rights so that he can do the mundane 
stuff which apparently is what he wants to be doing.

The most useful skill I ever learned in all of technology was how to tell 
someone straight up and down that they don't know much, without actually 
offending them.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Block root user from login on xorg GUI

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 15 November 2009 16:40:48 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 11/15/2009 11:22 AM, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> > SELinux allows to spread the tasks root needs to do or can do accross
> > several roles. Of course, if only one single person has root access to
> > the system this doesn't make sense. But we're talking about cases where
> > several people (incl. the malicious attacker) have root access. So you
> > can very well configure a (SE-)Linux system so that "root" can't do
> > everything.
> 
> So how do you get your machine back if you forbid yourself to change its
> configuration then?


reboot|power down|pull power plug out|whatever and edit kernel config line to 
not laod selinux

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com