[gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Alan E. Davis]

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I'm a little reluctant to say this, but it's been a couple of months now
since I switched back to Gentoo, and I want to shout out my pleasure that
this system has been performing admirably well this time around, in
comparison with earlier installations.  None of the earlier installations
were unacceptable, in fact, Gentoo remained my favorite.  I moved to Ubuntu
because maintainance of the Gentoo boxes was much more time consuming.

I've watched Gentoo plummet in the popularity ratings, for example at
distrowatch.  I've watched as the best documentation EVER on gentoo wiki has
fallen off the edge of the world---indeed, I am grief-stricken and perplexed
about that.  I had to debate with myself about whether to go back to
Gentoo.  Ubuntu had played to many tricks on me, at great personal cost.  I
finally made the leap, and it was a soft landing indeed.

I scoffed at the email from this list saying that   emerge -uDva world and
revdep-rebuild problems were not normal!  I had posted that I had NEVER (in
a couple of years or more of Gentoo use) gotten all the way through a
maintainance cycle of emerge -uDva --newuse world, revdep-rebuild, and
emerge --depclean.  I never had (or perhaps very, very seldom), and I spent
a lot of time working on it.  Still the system more or less worked.

Now, however, I have not had any such problem, or maybe I should say, the
one or two times I have it was easy to fiigure things out.  This is a major
turnaround.

Is it because I'm more experienced, or perhaps more cautious?  I am running
~amd64, and have several overlays installed under layman.  I don't know, but
I tend to think the distribution is more mature.

Perhaps this isn't the best place to put a word of thanks.  It's the best I
will do for now.  Thank you to all the developers and all the list people
who have consistently given the highest and most professional level of
assistance to a rather clueless user.  And never a cranky wine, like on
other lists, never any complaint.  This is typical, and always has been with
Gentoo's community.

I hope that at some point I can help with at least the documentation,
although I surely don't wish to pollute the space of the best docs (IMHO) in
the linux community.

Go figure: the popularity figures plunge, but the distro just gets better
and better.  Viva Gentoo...

Now I can go and get lost in the upgrade of gcc.

Alan Davis


Alan Davis

You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world,  but when
you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird...
So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing---that's what counts.

   ----Richard Feynman

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 15:13:18 +1000, Alan E. Davis wrote:

> I've watched Gentoo plummet in the popularity ratings, for example at
> distrowatch.

Distrowatch isn't really an indicator of popularity. You'll notice that
distros rise up the rankings when a new release is due, because people
are checking to see if it's out yet. Gentoo has no such release cycles,
so once installed you have no need to visit Distrowatch.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Did you hear about the blind prostitute? You have to hand it to her.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 15:13:18 +1000, Alan E. Davis wrote:
>
>   
>> I've watched Gentoo plummet in the popularity ratings, for example at
>> distrowatch.
>>     
>
> Distrowatch isn't really an indicator of popularity. You'll notice that
> distros rise up the rankings when a new release is due, because people
> are checking to see if it's out yet. Gentoo has no such release cycles,
> so once installed you have no need to visit Distrowatch.
>
>
>   

Yep, I haven't looked at distrowatch in ages.  I forgot it was even there. 

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Philip Webb]

090812 Alan E. Davis wrote:
> I'm a little reluctant to say this, but it's been a couple of months now
> since I switched back to Gentoo, and I want to shout out my pleasure
> that this system has been performing admirably well this time around,
> in comparison with earlier installations.  None of the earlier installations
> were unacceptable, in fact, Gentoo remained my favorite.  I moved to Ubuntu
> because maintainance of the Gentoo boxes was much more time consuming.

Yes, that seems to be the usual reason users leave Gentoo:
like owning a dog, you have to find time to maintain/exercise it.
However, unlike a dog, you can catch up after a long absence:
I've just finished updating the system in my stand-by box,
which had hardly been touched since 0809, but everything's ok now.

> I've watched Gentoo plummet in the popularity ratings, eg at distrowatch.

It got a lot of attention from the neophiles c 2002 ,
but as with everything they soon moved on to the next latest fad.
Gentoo is not for everyone: compare 'Financial Times',
one of the World's best newspapers, but it takes 3 days to read 1 issue.

> I've watched as the best documentation EVER on Gentoo wiki
> as fallen off the edge of the world.

Admin got neglected awhile, but my impression is that lessons were learned
& the basic running of the distro is now well-managed.

> Now, however, I have not had any such problem, or maybe I should say,
> the one or two times I have it was easy to figure things out.
> Is it because I'm more experienced, or perhaps more cautious?
> I don't know, but I tend to think the distribution is more mature.

If you insist on being at the cutting edge, sometimes you hurt your fingers.
I haven't had a serious problem with Gentoo since installing it 2003
& again in my latest machine 2007 .  Just last week,
after Mozilla made sound the default setting for Xulrunner + Firefox,
I entered a bug -- I don't want sound software in my machine --
& got a very prompt fix from the dev involved (thanks again).

> And never a cranky whine, like on other lists, never any complaint.

There was a silly troll last week, but everyone ignored it:
yes, that's a sign of maturity.

> Thank you to all the developers and all the list people
> who have consistently given the highest and most professional level
> of assistance to a rather clueless user.
> This is typical, and always has been with Gentoo's community.

The devs do need to get regular thanks for their unpaid work.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[bn]

Philip Webb ha scritto:
> 090812 Alan E. Davis wrote:
>> I'm a little reluctant to say this, but it's been a couple of months now
>> since I switched back to Gentoo, and I want to shout out my pleasure
>> that this system has been performing admirably well this time around,
>> in comparison with earlier installations.  None of the earlier installations
>> were unacceptable, in fact, Gentoo remained my favorite.  I moved to Ubuntu
>> because maintainance of the Gentoo boxes was much more time consuming.
> 
> Yes, that seems to be the usual reason users leave Gentoo:
> like owning a dog, you have to find time to maintain/exercise it.

I am starting to be in trouble using Gentoo for this very reason. Once I
used it on my desktop system, which was OK to be "under repair" once in
a while, since I had my workstation at work. Now I moved abroad and I
only have my laptop to use for all -home and work. If it is hosed, I am
lost (I have the OS X partition but it is basically useless for my job).

So I am becoming very reluctant in updating critical components -one
example is my kernel, which is basically untouched since I installed, in
late 2007. I know it's counterproductive, because the more I wait, the
worse it is, but it's always a matter of time, and I don't have that
time -not to update per se, which I have, but to face problems in case
critical updates don't go smooth.

Any advice on this kind of situation? I would rather not buy a "backup
laptop".

> However, unlike a dog, you can catch up after a long absence:

Heh, I hope so!

m.

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[William Kenworthy]

> worse it is, but it's always a matter of time, and I don't have that
> time -not to update per se, which I have, but to face problems in case
> critical updates don't go smooth.
> 
> Any advice on this kind of situation? I would rather not buy a "backup
> laptop".
> 
> > However, unlike a dog, you can catch up after a long absence:
> 
> Heh, I hope so!
> 
> m.

I get around this by leaving a relatively small partition on the hard
disk and install a minimal gentoo with rescue tools and essential
applications.  Every few months I update it by creating a chroot for it
on the running system.  I am a "serial upgrader" and have some quite
ancient gentoo systems around - one can be traced back to 1.1B (I think,
circa 1999) - all of which at times suffer severe breakage (remember
gcc2.95, or the glibc upgrades anyone? - interesting times :)

Along with a few other "strategies, it covers most things except
hardware failure - I use gnome, but have fluxbox installed as a backup,
kernels are upgraded manually, and the last couple are kept around "just
in case" (i.e., avoid genkernel), as well as openoffice in which I do
most work, I have abiword to type docs etc, when I have a really
"critical" presentation coming up, I make sure an up to date pdf is
around for backup - saved my bacon a couple of times now as you can grab
it from backup (you do up to date backups dont you :) and display it on
a borrowed doze laptop.

Think what you need to keep operating for a reasonable time when it all
goes sour, and you will be able to plan accordingly.

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

On Wednesday 12 August 2009 12:43:27 bn wrote:

> So I am becoming very reluctant in updating critical components -one
> example is my kernel, which is basically untouched since I installed, in
> late 2007. I know it's counterproductive, because the more I wait, the
> worse it is, but it's always a matter of time, and I don't have that
> time -not to update per se, which I have, but to face problems in case
> critical updates don't go smooth.
>
> Any advice on this kind of situation? I would rather not buy a "backup
> laptop".

Keeping the previous (working) kernel, and having a rescue disk around usually 
is enough to fix most kinds of breakages. Also building binary packages is 
useful for quickly restored broken packages (FEATURES=buildpkg or something 
like that in make.conf).

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Ward Poelmans]

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 14:28, Etaoin Shrdlu<shrdlu@unlimitedmail.org> wrote:
>> Any advice on this kind of situation? I would rather not buy a "backup
>> laptop".
>
> Keeping the previous (working) kernel, and having a rescue disk around usually
> is enough to fix most kinds of breakages. Also building binary packages is
> useful for quickly restored broken packages (FEATURES=buildpkg or something
> like that in make.conf).

Ubuntu on a USB drive is very helpfull in all kinds of situations ;-)
And it's a lot cheaper then a backup laptop.

Ward

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch 12 August 2009, Ward Poelmans wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 14:28, Etaoin Shrdlu<shrdlu@unlimitedmail.org> 
wrote:
> >> Any advice on this kind of situation? I would rather not buy a "backup
> >> laptop".
> >
> > Keeping the previous (working) kernel, and having a rescue disk around
> > usually is enough to fix most kinds of breakages. Also building binary
> > packages is useful for quickly restored broken packages
> > (FEATURES=buildpkg or something like that in make.conf).
>
> Ubuntu on a USB drive is very helpfull in all kinds of situations ;-)
> And it's a lot cheaper then a backup laptop.
>
> Ward

systemrescuecd is even more helpfull

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Ward Poelmans]

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 14:51, Volker Armin
Hemmann<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> systemrescuecd is even more helpfull

Yes, but a ubuntu (or any distro) on an usb drive is more usefull
IMHO. An usb drive is smaller and less fragile then a cd so it's a
better choice when you are very mobile. It also has the advantage of
having a writeable home directory. You can easily add or remove
programs, download drivers (on another pc if nessecary). You can even
use FAT so you can add files on a windows machine.

I always have an usb drive with Ubuntu with me for when my or any
other pc fails. With it, you can preform miracles ;-)

Ward

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch 12 August 2009, Ward Poelmans wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 14:51, Volker Armin
>
> Hemmann<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > systemrescuecd is even more helpfull
>
> Yes, but a ubuntu (or any distro) on an usb drive is more usefull
> IMHO. An usb drive is smaller and less fragile then a cd so it's a
> better choice when you are very mobile. It also has the advantage of
> having a writeable home directory. You can easily add or remove
> programs, download drivers (on another pc if nessecary). You can even
> use FAT so you can add files on a windows machine.
>
> I always have an usb drive with Ubuntu with me for when my or any
> other pc fails. With it, you can preform miracles ;-)
>
> Ward

you can put systemrescuecd on an usb stick. There is an easy howto. Short 
version: just use the script. Long version: mount the iso and copy the stuff. 
Edit a file. You are done.

Really, systemrescuecd is the best choice. It is based on gentoo, it is small, 
so there is a lot of room for other stuff, it has support for a wide range of 
filesystems and all the apps you need. Even working X and firefox.

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[bn]

Ward Poelmans ha scritto:
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 14:28, Etaoin Shrdlu<shrdlu@unlimitedmail.org> wrote:
>>> Any advice on this kind of situation? I would rather not buy a "backup
>>> laptop".
>> Keeping the previous (working) kernel, and having a rescue disk around usually
>> is enough to fix most kinds of breakages. Also building binary packages is
>> useful for quickly restored broken packages (FEATURES=buildpkg or something
>> like that in make.conf).
> 
> Ubuntu on a USB drive is very helpfull in all kinds of situations ;-)
> And it's a lot cheaper then a backup laptop.

This is an extremly clever idea! thanks!!

m.

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Dale]

bn wrote:
> Philip Webb ha scritto:
>   
>> 090812 Alan E. Davis wrote:
>>     
>>> I'm a little reluctant to say this, but it's been a couple of months now
>>> since I switched back to Gentoo, and I want to shout out my pleasure
>>> that this system has been performing admirably well this time around,
>>> in comparison with earlier installations.  None of the earlier installations
>>> were unacceptable, in fact, Gentoo remained my favorite.  I moved to Ubuntu
>>> because maintainance of the Gentoo boxes was much more time consuming.
>>>       
>> Yes, that seems to be the usual reason users leave Gentoo:
>> like owning a dog, you have to find time to maintain/exercise it.
>>     
>
> I am starting to be in trouble using Gentoo for this very reason. Once I
> used it on my desktop system, which was OK to be "under repair" once in
> a while, since I had my workstation at work. Now I moved abroad and I
> only have my laptop to use for all -home and work. If it is hosed, I am
> lost (I have the OS X partition but it is basically useless for my job).
>
> So I am becoming very reluctant in updating critical components -one
> example is my kernel, which is basically untouched since I installed, in
> late 2007. I know it's counterproductive, because the more I wait, the
> worse it is, but it's always a matter of time, and I don't have that
> time -not to update per se, which I have, but to face problems in case
> critical updates don't go smooth.
>
> Any advice on this kind of situation? I would rather not buy a "backup
> laptop".
>
>   
>> However, unlike a dog, you can catch up after a long absence:
>>     
>
> Heh, I hope so!
>
> m.
>
>
>   

I do it this way.  I keep at least two working kernels in /boot.  If I
need to, I can edit the grub boot line to boot the old kernel if the new
one doesn't work.  I do NOT use the make install thing.  I do mine
manually and name them in my own little way to know what kernel version
it is and what version it is locally.  It is usually something like
bzImage-<kernel version>-<local version>.  For local version a simple -1
or -2 works fine.  I also copy the .config over with the same name.

When I upgrade and get a known good kernel where everything works well,
I then do some house cleaning with regard to the older kernels.  As
mentioned earlier, I keep at least two working kernels, the one I am
using and a backup.  Looks something like this:

root@smoker / # ls -al /boot/bzImage-2.6.2*
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2460088 Jan  2  2009 /boot/bzImage-2.6.23-r8-7
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2463768 Apr 16 17:10 /boot/bzImage-2.6.23-r8-8
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2370876 May 27 11:01 /boot/bzImage-2.6.25-r9-4
root@smoker / #

The config files look similar as well. 

As far as packages, just use the buildpkg in make.conf and then you have
a binary backup that can be restored in just a few minutes for even a
large package. 

Backups are also nice.  Just in case.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 08:37:44 -0500, Dale wrote:

> I do it this way.  I keep at least two working kernels in /boot.  If I
> need to, I can edit the grub boot line to boot the old kernel if the new
> one doesn't work.  I do NOT use the make install thing.  I do mine
> manually and name them in my own little way to know what kernel version
> it is and what version it is locally.

maske install does that for you, it also sets up the vmlinuz and
vmlinuz.old symlinks so you don't need to mess with your GRUB config.

>  also copy the .config over with the same name.

It does that for you too :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

OK, I'm confused. More than usual, that is.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 08:37:44 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>   
>> I do it this way.  I keep at least two working kernels in /boot.  If I
>> need to, I can edit the grub boot line to boot the old kernel if the new
>> one doesn't work.  I do NOT use the make install thing.  I do mine
>> manually and name them in my own little way to know what kernel version
>> it is and what version it is locally.
>>     
>
> maske install does that for you, it also sets up the vmlinuz and
> vmlinuz.old symlinks so you don't need to mess with your GRUB config.
>
>   
>>  also copy the .config over with the same name.
>>     
>
> It does that for you too :)
>
>
>   

But it doesn't do it the way that I do.  I have used it a few times but
it didn't work like I do manually.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 09:20:34 -0500, Dale wrote:

> >> I do it this way.  I keep at least two working kernels in /boot.  If
> >> I need to, I can edit the grub boot line to boot the old kernel if
> >> the new one doesn't work.  I do NOT use the make install thing.  I
> >> do mine manually and name them in my own little way to know what
> >> kernel version it is and what version it is locally.
> >
> > make install does that for you, it also sets up the vmlinuz and
> > vmlinuz.old symlinks so you don't need to mess with your GRUB config.
> 
> But it doesn't do it the way that I do.  I have used it a few times but
> it didn't work like I do manually.

It sounds like you don't have a suitable LOCALVERSION setting in your
config. Here it names each kernel vmlinuz-version-localversion.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 21: "Now, then ..."

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Stroller]

On 12 Aug 2009, at 15:20, Dale wrote:
>> ...
>> maske install does that for you, it also sets up the vmlinuz and
>> vmlinuz.old symlinks so you don't need to mess with your GRUB config.
>
> But it doesn't do it the way that I do.  I have used it a few times  
> but
> it didn't work like I do manually.

+1

I don't know why anyone would choose to compile & install the kernel  
any way other than manually. It's only a handful of commands, after all.

(I do admit, however, to being an old dog).

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:19:41 +0100, Stroller wrote:

> I don't know why anyone would choose to compile & install the kernel  
> any way other than manually. It's only a handful of commands, after all.

So you trust make to supervise the building of a couple of million lines
of source code, but not to copy two files and set a symlink? :P


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WinErr 00A: Promotional literature overflow - Mailbox full

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:19:41 +0100, Stroller wrote:
>
>   
>> I don't know why anyone would choose to compile & install the kernel  
>> any way other than manually. It's only a handful of commands, after all.
>>     
>
> So you trust make to supervise the building of a couple of million lines
> of source code, but not to copy two files and set a symlink? :P
>
>
>   

Yep.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Mike Edenfield]

On 8/12/2009 4:19 PM, Stroller wrote:
>
> On 12 Aug 2009, at 15:20, Dale wrote:
>>> ...
>>> maske install does that for you, it also sets up the vmlinuz and
>>> vmlinuz.old symlinks so you don't need to mess with your GRUB config.
>>
>> But it doesn't do it the way that I do. I have used it a few times but
>> it didn't work like I do manually.
>
> +1
>
> I don't know why anyone would choose to compile & install the kernel any
> way other than manually. It's only a handful of commands, after all.

$ make && make modules_install
$ cp arch/x86/boot/bzImage /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4
$ cp .config /boot/config-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4
$ cp System.map /boot/System.map-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4
$ cd /boot
$ mv vmlinuz vmlinuz.old
$ mv System.map System.map.old
$ mv config config.old
$ ln -sf vmlinuz-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4 vmlinuz
$ ln -sf config-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4 config
$ ln -sf System.map-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4 System.map

vs.

$ make && make modules_install && make install

I can't see any reason *not* to use make install, especially when its 
just doing exactly the same thing you are doing manually with about 100 
times as much typing.

--K

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch 12 August 2009, Mike Edenfield wrote:
> On 8/12/2009 4:19 PM, Stroller wrote:
> > On 12 Aug 2009, at 15:20, Dale wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>> maske install does that for you, it also sets up the vmlinuz and
> >>> vmlinuz.old symlinks so you don't need to mess with your GRUB config.
> >>
> >> But it doesn't do it the way that I do. I have used it a few times but
> >> it didn't work like I do manually.
> >
> > +1
> >
> > I don't know why anyone would choose to compile & install the kernel any
> > way other than manually. It's only a handful of commands, after all.
>
> $ make && make modules_install
> $ cp arch/x86/boot/bzImage /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4
> $ cp .config /boot/config-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4
> $ cp System.map /boot/System.map-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4
> $ cd /boot
> $ mv vmlinuz vmlinuz.old
> $ mv System.map System.map.old
> $ mv config config.old
> $ ln -sf vmlinuz-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4 vmlinuz
> $ ln -sf config-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4 config
> $ ln -sf System.map-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4 System.map
>
> vs.
>
> $ make && make modules_install && make install

too much to type.
make all modules_install install

is much better.

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Mike Edenfield]

On 8/12/2009 5:08 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Mittwoch 12 August 2009, Mike Edenfield wrote:

>> $ make&&  make modules_install&&  make install
>
> too much to type.
> make all modules_install install
>
> is much better.

I always forget that the 'all' target (typically) does the same thing as 
just typing 'make'.

--K

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[BRM]

> From: Mike Edenfield <kutulu@kutulu.org>
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 4:58:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood
> 
On 8/12/2009 4:19 PM, Stroller wrote:
> > On 12 Aug 2009, at 15:20, Dale wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>> maske install does that for you, it also sets up the vmlinuz and
> >>> vmlinuz.old symlinks so you don't need to mess with your GRUB config.
> >>
> >> But it doesn't do it the way that I do. I have used it a few times but
> >> it didn't work like I do manually.
> > +1
> > I don't know why anyone would choose to compile & install the kernel any
> > way other than manually. It's only a handful of commands, after all.
> $ make && make modules_install
> $ cp arch/x86/boot/bzImage /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4
> $ cp .config /boot/config-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4
> $ cp System.map /boot/System.map-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4
> $ cd /boot
> $ mv vmlinuz vmlinuz.old
> $ mv System.map System.map.old
> $ mv config config.old
> $ ln -sf vmlinuz-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4 vmlinuz
> $ ln -sf config-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4 config
> $ ln -sf System.map-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4 System.map
> vs.
> $ make && make modules_install && make install
> I can't see any reason *not* to use make install, especially when its 
> just doing exactly the same thing you are doing manually with about 100 
> times as much typing.

$ make install

supposes you are installing to the standard location.
I forget why off hand - probably due to the conversion to gentoo on the machine a while back - but I'm installing to /boot/grub, not /boot.
So far as I am aware (I could be wrong), your method doesn't support that.

Ben

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 14:46:16 -0700 (PDT), BRM wrote:

> $ make install
> 
> supposes you are installing to the standard location.
> I forget why off hand - probably due to the conversion to gentoo on the
> machine a while back - but I'm installing to /boot/grub, not /boot. So
> far as I am aware (I could be wrong), your method doesn't support that.

I question the wisdom of installing kernels in a directory intended for
bootloader files, but if you really must...

INSTALL_PATH=/boot/grub make install


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Virtue is it's own punishment.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Mike Kazantsev]

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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 22:59:53 +0100
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 14:46:16 -0700 (PDT), BRM wrote:
> 
> > $ make install
> > 
> > supposes you are installing to the standard location.
> > I forget why off hand - probably due to the conversion to gentoo on
> > the machine a while back - but I'm installing to /boot/grub,
> > not /boot. So far as I am aware (I could be wrong), your method
> > doesn't support that.
> 
> I question the wisdom of installing kernels in a directory intended
> for bootloader files, but if you really must...
> 
> INSTALL_PATH=/boot/grub make install

I'd also add that you can always look at /sbin/installkernel and make
it "support" anything you want - it's just a few lines of bash, after
all.

-- 
Mike Kazantsev // fraggod.net

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:46:24 +0600, Mike Kazantsev wrote:

> > I question the wisdom of installing kernels in a directory intended
> > for bootloader files, but if you really must...
> > 
> > INSTALL_PATH=/boot/grub make install  
> 
> I'd also add that you can always look at /sbin/installkernel and make
> it "support" anything you want - it's just a few lines of bash, after
> all.

I did, it is passed the install directory as an argument, so I looked at
the kernel makefile and found it uses INSTALL_PATH to determine this. I
originally thought about modifying installkernel, but it's good that that
isn't needed because an update to debianutils, like we had this week,
would undo your changes.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The Borg assimilated my race & all I got was this T shirt.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Mike Kazantsev]

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On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 08:31:31 +0100
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> I did, it is passed the install directory as an argument, so I looked
> at the kernel makefile and found it uses INSTALL_PATH to determine
> this. I originally thought about modifying installkernel, but it's
> good that that isn't needed because an update to debianutils, like we
> had this week, would undo your changes.

AFAIR, there's etc-update for that, but I might've added it to
config-protect by hand.

I had to modify it at some point when it insisted on cat-ing new
kernels instead of symlinks or hardlinks in my setup, which seemed
quite a waste to me, but at some point that was fixed and now I'm happy
with vanilla version as well.

-- 
Mike Kazantsev // fraggod.net

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:41:55 +0600, Mike Kazantsev wrote:

> > I did, it is passed the install directory as an argument, so I looked
> > at the kernel makefile and found it uses INSTALL_PATH to determine
> > this. I originally thought about modifying installkernel, but it's
> > good that that isn't needed because an update to debianutils, like we
> > had this week, would undo your changes.  
> 
> AFAIR, there's etc-update for that, but I might've added it to
> config-protect by hand.

I imagine you did, /sbin is not config-protected by default.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If I save time, when do I get it back?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Stroller]

On 12 Aug 2009, at 21:58, Mike Edenfield wrote:
>> ....
>> I don't know why anyone would choose to compile & install the  
>> kernel any
>> way other than manually. It's only a handful of commands, after all.
>
> $ make && make modules_install
> $ cp arch/x86/boot/bzImage /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4
> $ cp .config /boot/config-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4
> $ cp System.map /boot/System.map-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4
> $ cd /boot
> $ mv vmlinuz vmlinuz.old
> $ mv System.map System.map.old
> $ mv config config.old
> $ ln -sf vmlinuz-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4 vmlinuz
> $ ln -sf config-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4 config
> $ ln -sf System.map-2.6.28-hardened-r1-wombat-4 System.map
>
> vs.
>
> $ make && make modules_install && make install
>
> I can't see any reason *not* to use make install, especially when  
> its just doing exactly the same thing you are doing manually with  
> about 100 times as much typing.


Why does everyone replying to my post snip the part in which I said  
that I'm an old dog?

Surely you can infer from that that I'm familiar with doing it my  
current way, and have no interest in learning new tricks, just for  
your entertainment.

I have no interest in learning why you mess around with System.map, or  
allow software to clutter your /boot with it.It is not a matter of  
"trust", Neil, merely what I've learned already & am comfortable with.

After trying Ubuntu I have no idea why anyone would choose to use  
that, either, but Ubuntu users should not consider that a personal  
affront.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:07:22 +0100, Stroller wrote:

> Why does everyone replying to my post snip the part in which I said  
> that I'm an old dog?

We were bing polite :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Never argue with an idiot. First, they bring you down to their level.
Then they beat you with experience.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Philip Webb]

090812 Dale replied to bn :
>> I am becoming very reluctant in updating critical components -
>> eg my kernel, which is basically untouched since I installed late 2007.
> I keep at least two working kernels in /boot.
> I do mine manually and name them in my own way,
> something like bzImage-<kernel version>-<local version>.
> When I upgrade and get a known good kernel where everything works well,
> I then do some house cleaning with regard to the older kernels.
> As far as packages, just use 'buildpkg' in 'make.conf'
> and then you have a binary backup that can be restored in a few minutes
> Backups are also nice.  Just in case.

Exactly what I was going to advise !  It's worth mentioning 'make oldconfig'
to help configure the new kernel ('?' gives you help on each new item).
Someone else already mentioned System Rescue CD (based on Gentoo).

The tools are all there in Gentoo: you just have to find & use them.
Perhaps someone should write a doc 'Gentoo for the Time-Challenged'.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Dale]

Philip Webb wrote:
> 090812 Dale replied to bn :
>   
>>> I am becoming very reluctant in updating critical components -
>>> eg my kernel, which is basically untouched since I installed late 2007.
>>>       
>> I keep at least two working kernels in /boot.
>> I do mine manually and name them in my own way,
>> something like bzImage-<kernel version>-<local version>.
>> When I upgrade and get a known good kernel where everything works well,
>> I then do some house cleaning with regard to the older kernels.
>> As far as packages, just use 'buildpkg' in 'make.conf'
>> and then you have a binary backup that can be restored in a few minutes
>> Backups are also nice.  Just in case.
>>     
>
> Exactly what I was going to advise !  It's worth mentioning 'make oldconfig'
> to help configure the new kernel ('?' gives you help on each new item).
> Someone else already mentioned System Rescue CD (based on Gentoo).
>
> The tools are all there in Gentoo: you just have to find & use them.
> Perhaps someone should write a doc 'Gentoo for the Time-Challenged'.
>
>   

Yep, I only had trouble with make oldconfig once.  Apparently that made
some huge changes to something and I started from scratch that one
time.  Staying reasonably up to date is the best way tho.

Speaking of, I need to update mine too.  I'm in the process of switching
from dial-up to DSL.   :-D   :-D

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Dan Farrell]

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 09:22:31 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm in the process of switching
> from dial-up to DSL.   :-D   :-D

Running gentoo on dialup for so long, you must be the most patient
person in existence.  

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Dale]

Dan Farrell wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 09:22:31 -0500
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> I'm in the process of switching
>> from dial-up to DSL.   :-D   :-D
>>     
>
> Running gentoo on dialup for so long, you must be the most patient
> person in existence.  
>
>
>   

Weeeellllll, they are testing my patience again.  I signed up, got my
modem from the local AT&T store, got everything done except for the user
name and password.  They said they can't give me a user name and
password until it gets out of "transition" or some crap like that. 
Expected date, *9-9-2009*.  :-@ 

I was planning to test DSL on this little update.

Total: 26 packages (8 upgrades, 1 downgrade, 2 new, 15 reinstalls), Size
of downloads: 142,546 kB

Now it is a >15 hour download.  I'm starting to picture my 3/4 ton
pick-up on top of that DSL box.  It's starting to look pretty darn good
too.  Would sort of miss the ole truck tho. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Dan Farrell]

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 18:54:52 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm starting to picture my 3/4 ton
> pick-up on top of that DSL box.  It's starting to look pretty darn
> good too.  Would sort of miss the ole truck tho. 
> 

But then you'll be back to dialup indefinitely.... 


... i wonder if you could get high speed in prison ...

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Dale]

Dan Farrell wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 18:54:52 -0500
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> I'm starting to picture my 3/4 ton
>> pick-up on top of that DSL box.  It's starting to look pretty darn
>> good too.  Would sort of miss the ole truck tho. 
>>
>>     
>
> But then you'll be back to dialup indefinitely.... 
>
>
> ... i wonder if you could get high speed in prison ...
>
>
>   

Knowing how they cater to the crooks around here, I would most likely
have a T3 line or a dedicated fiber line, JUST FOR ME.

Still no DSL.  I got two lights on my little modem, power and ethernet. 
I would like to see the others on too, especially the activity light.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Paul Hartman]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dan Farrell wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 18:54:52 -0500
>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I'm starting to picture my 3/4 ton
>>> pick-up on top of that DSL box.  It's starting to look pretty darn
>>> good too.  Would sort of miss the ole truck tho.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> But then you'll be back to dialup indefinitely....
>>
>>
>> ... i wonder if you could get high speed in prison ...
>>
>>
>>
>
> Knowing how they cater to the crooks around here, I would most likely
> have a T3 line or a dedicated fiber line, JUST FOR ME.
>
> Still no DSL.  I got two lights on my little modem, power and ethernet.
> I would like to see the others on too, especially the activity light.
>
> Dale

I'm pretty sure the US federal prisons have high speed internet. There
are even websites where current inmates can make pen-pals (no pun
intended).

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Stroller]

On 12 Aug 2009, at 12:43, bn wrote:
>> ...
>> Yes, that seems to be the usual reason users leave Gentoo:
>> like owning a dog, you have to find time to maintain/exercise it.
>
> I am starting to be in trouble using Gentoo for this very reason. ...
>
> So I am becoming very reluctant in updating critical components -one
> example is my kernel, which is basically untouched since I  
> installed, in
> late 2007. I know it's counterproductive, because the more I wait, the
> worse it is, but it's always a matter of time, and I don't have that
> time -not to update per se, which I have, but to face problems in case
> critical updates don't go smooth.
>
> Any advice on this kind of situation? I would rather not buy a "backup
> laptop".

Don't worry. After you've *once* fallen behind far enough, you won't  
make this mistake again!

The kernel is the *easiest* part to keep up to date, IMO. You can  
easily reboot & go back to the old one. For me, it's other software  
packages which can become the problem.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[bn]

Stroller ha scritto:
> 
> On 12 Aug 2009, at 12:43, bn wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Yes, that seems to be the usual reason users leave Gentoo:
>>> like owning a dog, you have to find time to maintain/exercise it.
>>
>> I am starting to be in trouble using Gentoo for this very reason. ...
>>
>> So I am becoming very reluctant in updating critical components -one
>> example is my kernel, which is basically untouched since I installed, in
>> late 2007. I know it's counterproductive, because the more I wait, the
>> worse it is, but it's always a matter of time, and I don't have that
>> time -not to update per se, which I have, but to face problems in case
>> critical updates don't go smooth.
>>
>> Any advice on this kind of situation? I would rather not buy a "backup
>> laptop".
> 
> Don't worry. After you've *once* fallen behind far enough, you won't
> make this mistake again!

LOL, you're scaring me.

> The kernel is the *easiest* part to keep up to date, IMO. You can easily
> reboot & go back to the old one. For me, it's other software packages
> which can become the problem.

Oh no, other packages I more or less regularly update -now I'm just
behind with Xorg 1.5 because of all the horror stories I've heard on
this list.

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Dale]

bn wrote:
>
> Oh no, other packages I more or less regularly update -now I'm just
> behind with Xorg 1.5 because of all the horror stories I've heard on
> this list.
>
>
>   

Oh lets not even start on xorg-server-1.5.  I already have a bug up my
butt about AT&T and DSL. 

I think I mentioned, -hal in package.use for xorg-server and let it
update.  Works like it always has.  I had not one single issue when hal
is not invited to the party.

That'll teach hal to tell me it "can't do that".  You know, that
computer show where he locks the people out in space and won't let them
in.  We don't want hal in here either.  :-p

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Paul Hartman]

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:13 AM, Alan E. Davis<lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is it because I'm more experienced, or perhaps more cautious?  I am running
> ~amd64, and have several overlays installed under layman.  I don't know, but
> I tend to think the distribution is more mature.

Welcome back! :)

I seem to feel that it's more mature, too. I haven't stopped using it,
but in the last 5 years that I've been using it, it has definitely
gotten much easier and more manageable thanks to the hard work of so
many people. In particular some of the newest versions of portage have
greatly improved handling of things like blockers, depclean hasn't
burned me, and the whole @preserved-rebuild thing has virtually
eliminated the need to ever run revdep-rebuild. The established
overlays and layman have really helped dealing with the major things
like new releases of KDE with no  big headaches, and ebuilds for
nearly everything are available either in portage or in an overlay.
There are still many, many bug reports on b.g.o every day (which I
consider a good thing in this case) so it seems like while there isn't
the "buzz" in the linux world about it anymore, the Gentoo community
is still alive and active.

Re: [gentoo-user] Knock on wood

[Keith Dart]

=== On Wed, 08/12, Paul Hartman wrote: ===
> I seem to feel that it's more mature, too. I haven't stopped using it,
> but in the last 5 years that I've been using it, it has definitely
> gotten much easier and more manageable thanks to the hard work of so
> many people. 
===

Oh, yes. It seems the portage build system is "smarter" now, and takes
care of more things for you. Then there are the useful tools such as
revdep-rebuild and eix. And openrc is just wonderful (thanks Roy!) 

The only problem with Gentoo is the constant, rolling updates you simply
MUST do from time to time. And if you have several Gentoo systems,
well, it starts to become a little burdensome... 

Each Gentoo system is unique in the world. 


-- Keith Dart

-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================