[gentoo-user] Basic queries regarding installation from an outsider looking in

[gentoo-user] Basic queries regarding installation from an outsider looking in

[AG]

Hi all

Thanks for the responses to my earlier query regarding co-location of 
Debian and Gentoo on the same HDD.

I still have a few questions regarding an installation before I take the 
plunge:

(1)  Looking through the background docs, it occurs to me that if I 
wanted to install Gentoo on my system, I would need access to a second 
machine that is running all of the on-line docs that guide one through 
the installation process.  Is this correct?  If not, how does one refer 
to the (seemingly quite comprehensive) guidelines whilst in the middle 
of an installation?

(2)  When Gentoo installs its libraries, does this duplicate the 
libraries already on my machine?  For instance - if I have OOo and KDE 
and Xfce4 loaded as part of my Debian Squeeze system, will Gentoo also 
install its own version of OOo, KDE and Xfce4 alongside the Deb files?  
I was thinking that this would have a number of implications in terms of 
space and (potentially) in how the drive is partitioned for the Gentoo 
installation ... unless I'm missing the point?

(3)  What differences would I likely experience between running my 
Debian installation and the Gentoo installation?  After all, up to a 
certain point GNU/Linux is GNU/Linux, and if I configured all the bells 
and whistles the same way as I have currently got them set up (i.e. 
preferred WM, desktop settings, applications, email and Net preferences, 
etc.), I'm not sure there would be any ostensible distinction between 
the two.  Hence, my question refers really to the more subtle 
differences between the two systems which one only picks up on after a 
while of using it.  For example, the last time I used Mandriva (when it 
was still called Mandrake), it was chunky and locked down, a FOSS 
version of Windows really, but the same applications were in use as were 
on my ol' trusty workhorse Slackware 8.1 through 10.1.  It was just in 
the latter that nothing would happen in Slack without my having been 
involved directly or indirectly in making it happen.  I appreciate that 
many distros tend to not have the bare bones approach that Slack does, 
but this is really just to try to illustrate what I am getting at: the 
subtleties experienced by a user of the system.

Any installation commitment will have to wait for a couple of weeks yet 
though: I'm in the process of completing my MSc thesis and need to keep 
a stable environment for the time being, so will look at taking this on 
in a few weeks.  This is thus background research - a bit of a 
reconnaissance mission, so to speak.  Any thoughts/ shared experiences 
would be welcome ... unless there is another, more appropriate forum for 
these kinds of experiences to be shared/ discussed.

Many thanks all.

Best wishes

AG

Re: [gentoo-user] Basic queries regarding installation from an outsider looking in

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 12:02:50 +0100, AG wrote:

> (1)  Looking through the background docs, it occurs to me that if I 
> wanted to install Gentoo on my system, I would need access to a second 
> machine that is running all of the on-line docs that guide one through 
> the installation process.  Is this correct?  If not, how does one refer 
> to the (seemingly quite comprehensive) guidelines whilst in the middle 
> of an installation?

Look at the alternate install docs. Although these relate to using a live
CD like Knoppix, you can also use an already installed system for this.
So you can install Gentoo from a chroot in your existing Debian system
(you will may a live CD to repartition). That way you can not only read
the docs, you can read your email, browse the web or play games while the
installation proceeds.

> (2)  When Gentoo installs its libraries, does this duplicate the 
> libraries already on my machine?  For instance - if I have OOo and KDE 
> and Xfce4 loaded as part of my Debian Squeeze system, will Gentoo also 
> install its own version of OOo, KDE and Xfce4 alongside the Deb files?  
> I was thinking that this would have a number of implications in terms
> of space and (potentially) in how the drive is partitioned for the
> Gentoo installation ... unless I'm missing the point?

Your Gentoo and Debian systems would, and should, be totally separate,
apart from shared user data.

> (3)  What differences would I likely experience between running my 
> Debian installation and the Gentoo installation?  After all, up to a 
> certain point GNU/Linux is GNU/Linux, and if I configured all the bells 
> and whistles the same way as I have currently got them set up (i.e. 
> preferred WM, desktop settings, applications, email and Net
> preferences, etc.), I'm not sure there would be any ostensible
> distinction between the two.

From a user perspective, you are right, Linux is Linux and different
distros tend to be different ways of arriving at a similar point. The
main difference is in the system administration.

> Any installation commitment will have to wait for a couple of weeks yet 
> though: I'm in the process of completing my MSc thesis and need to keep 
> a stable environment for the time being, so will look at taking this on 
> in a few weeks.  This is thus background research - a bit of a 
> reconnaissance mission, so to speak.  Any thoughts/ shared experiences 
> would be welcome ... unless there is another, more appropriate forum
> for these kinds of experiences to be shared/ discussed.

Installing from within your existing system means you can fit the Gentoo
installation process in around your other computer usage.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WinErr 018: Unrecoverable error - System has been destroyed. Buy a new
one. Old Windows licence is not valid anymore.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Basic queries regarding installation from an outsider looking in

[AG]

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Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 12:02:50 +0100, AG wrote:
>
>   
>> (1)  Looking through the background docs, it occurs to me that if I 
>> wanted to install Gentoo on my system, I would need access to a second 
>> machine that is running all of the on-line docs that guide one through 
>> the installation process.  Is this correct?  If not, how does one refer 
>> to the (seemingly quite comprehensive) guidelines whilst in the middle 
>> of an installation?
>>     
>
> Look at the alternate install docs. Although these relate to using a live
> CD like Knoppix, you can also use an already installed system for this.
> So you can install Gentoo from a chroot in your existing Debian system
> (you will may a live CD to repartition). That way you can not only read
> the docs, you can read your email, browse the web or play games while the
> installation proceeds.
>
>   
Hmm ... it looks like I need to beef up my chroot know-how.  My /home 
partition is large enough to partition a dedicated area without problems 
I'd imagine.  That sounds a reasonably painless way forward, but not for 
now.
>> (2)  When Gentoo installs its libraries, does this duplicate the 
>> libraries already on my machine?  For instance - if I have OOo and KDE 
>> and Xfce4 loaded as part of my Debian Squeeze system, will Gentoo also 
>> install its own version of OOo, KDE and Xfce4 alongside the Deb files?  
>> I was thinking that this would have a number of implications in terms
>> of space and (potentially) in how the drive is partitioned for the
>> Gentoo installation ... unless I'm missing the point?
>>     
>
> Your Gentoo and Debian systems would, and should, be totally separate,
> apart from shared user data.
>
>   
So ... changes to user documents, etc. in Gentoo would be reflected at 
the next Debian login?  Is this what you mean?
>> (3)  What differences would I likely experience between running my 
>> Debian installation and the Gentoo installation?  After all, up to a 
>> certain point GNU/Linux is GNU/Linux, and if I configured all the bells 
>> and whistles the same way as I have currently got them set up (i.e. 
>> preferred WM, desktop settings, applications, email and Net
>> preferences, etc.), I'm not sure there would be any ostensible
>> distinction between the two.
>>     
>
> From a user perspective, you are right, Linux is Linux and different
> distros tend to be different ways of arriving at a similar point. The
> main difference is in the system administration.
>
>   
Well put. 
>> Any installation commitment will have to wait for a couple of weeks yet 
>> though: I'm in the process of completing my MSc thesis and need to keep 
>> a stable environment for the time being, so will look at taking this on 
>> in a few weeks.  This is thus background research - a bit of a 
>> reconnaissance mission, so to speak.  Any thoughts/ shared experiences 
>> would be welcome ... unless there is another, more appropriate forum
>> for these kinds of experiences to be shared/ discussed.
>>     
>
> Installing from within your existing system means you can fit the Gentoo
> installation process in around your other computer usage.
>
>
>   
This sounds all the more doable.  Clearly more reading is required, so 
this will be parked for a while longer until time permits.  Then with 
back-ups and good docs, it sounds like it might be an interesting winter 
project to take on.

Thanks.

AG

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Re: [gentoo-user] Basic queries regarding installation from an outsider looking in

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:06:04 +0100, AG wrote:

> > Look at the alternate install docs. Although these relate to using a
> > live CD like Knoppix, you can also use an already installed system
> > for this. So you can install Gentoo from a chroot in your existing
> > Debian system (you will may a live CD to repartition). That way you
> > can not only read the docs, you can read your email, browse the web
> > or play games while the installation proceeds.

> Hmm ... it looks like I need to beef up my chroot know-how.  My /home 
> partition is large enough to partition a dedicated area without
> problems I'd imagine.  That sounds a reasonably painless way forward,
> but not for now.

I think you nay mis-understand the standard install process. it's done in
a chroot anyway. The only difference is that the system from which you
enter the chroot is your existing distro and not a live CD. That's
exactly how I installed Gentoo on this computer.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants;
and the other is getting it. - Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)

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Re: [gentoo-user] Basic queries regarding installation from an outsider looking in

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 14 June 2009 13:02:50 AG wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Thanks for the responses to my earlier query regarding co-location of
> Debian and Gentoo on the same HDD.
>
> I still have a few questions regarding an installation before I take the
> plunge:
>
> (1)  Looking through the background docs, it occurs to me that if I
> wanted to install Gentoo on my system, I would need access to a second
> machine that is running all of the on-line docs that guide one through
> the installation process.  Is this correct?  If not, how does one refer
> to the (seemingly quite comprehensive) guidelines whilst in the middle
> of an installation?

With links or link2 or lynx - it's on the stage 3.

Get network up and running, view docs in text mode

> (2)  When Gentoo installs its libraries, does this duplicate the
> libraries already on my machine?  For instance - if I have OOo and KDE
> and Xfce4 loaded as part of my Debian Squeeze system, will Gentoo also
> install its own version of OOo, KDE and Xfce4 alongside the Deb files?
> I was thinking that this would have a number of implications in terms of
> space and (potentially) in how the drive is partitioned for the Gentoo
> installation ... unless I'm missing the point?

Yes. You have two complete operating systems, and they share very little, if 
anything. Don't try and be tempted to share binaries - that way does madness 
lie.

> (3)  What differences would I likely experience between running my
> Debian installation and the Gentoo installation?

That's not a question that anyone except you can answer - it's like asking me 
what different experience will you have between your ex-wife and current 
girlfriend. I have no idea, nor any way to find out.

They will be different, that much is true. Gentoo will work the way you set it 
up, I can't even warn you about sudo instead of su a la Ubuntu as Gentoo let's 
you do it either way. If you use Gnome, you will get Gnome's default theme (a 
blue one?) instead of say Ubuntu's Human theme. Changing that is a simple 
emerge and a few mouse clicks.

What you will do is spend an insane amount of time trying to figure out what a 
certain USE flag actually does an if you want it. Debian doesn't give you that 
choice.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Basic queries regarding installation from an outsider looking in

[AG]

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Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Sunday 14 June 2009 13:02:50 AG wrote:
>   
>> Hi all
>>
>> Thanks for the responses to my earlier query regarding co-location of
>> Debian and Gentoo on the same HDD.
>>
>> I still have a few questions regarding an installation before I take the
>> plunge:
>>
>> (1)  Looking through the background docs, it occurs to me that if I
>> wanted to install Gentoo on my system, I would need access to a second
>> machine that is running all of the on-line docs that guide one through
>> the installation process.  Is this correct?  If not, how does one refer
>> to the (seemingly quite comprehensive) guidelines whilst in the middle
>> of an installation?
>>     
>
> With links or link2 or lynx - it's on the stage 3.
>
> Get network up and running, view docs in text mode
>
>   
It looks like an installation in a chroot space on my current machine 
will be the way I'll go on this one.  If I can find the parts, I might 
even go so far as patching together an older box and dedicating it to 
the great take-on Gentoo project!  In which case, this would be an 
interesting route to pursue. But, for now, I'm likely to go the chroot way.
>> (2)  When Gentoo installs its libraries, does this duplicate the
>> libraries already on my machine?  For instance - if I have OOo and KDE
>> and Xfce4 loaded as part of my Debian Squeeze system, will Gentoo also
>> install its own version of OOo, KDE and Xfce4 alongside the Deb files?
>> I was thinking that this would have a number of implications in terms of
>> space and (potentially) in how the drive is partitioned for the Gentoo
>> installation ... unless I'm missing the point?
>>     
>
> Yes. You have two complete operating systems, and they share very little, if 
> anything. Don't try and be tempted to share binaries - that way does madness 
> lie.
>
>   
Thanks for the heads' up!  I'm beginning to get a clearer picture of how 
this would actually work now. 

>> (3)  What differences would I likely experience between running my
>> Debian installation and the Gentoo installation?
>>     
>
> That's not a question that anyone except you can answer - it's like asking me 
> what different experience will you have between your ex-wife and current 
> girlfriend. I have no idea, nor any way to find out.
>
>   
Interesting analogy, but your point is taken.  It was a bit of an unfair 
question really. 
> They will be different, that much is true. Gentoo will work the way you set it 
> up, I can't even warn you about sudo instead of su a la Ubuntu as Gentoo let's 
> you do it either way. If you use Gnome, you will get Gnome's default theme (a 
> blue one?) instead of say Ubuntu's Human theme. Changing that is a simple 
> emerge and a few mouse clicks.
>   
I don't know *buntu.  I'm on Squeeze (testing) and am having a good time 
with it.  After Slackware's rock-climbing experience of system 
maintenance, I feel quite spoilt having a tool like apt at my 
fingertips.  Debian does have some interesting policy implementations 
with renaming Firefox, etc., but these are minor and aside from my 
inclination to call apps by their given name there is no inconvenience. 
> What you will do is spend an insane amount of time trying to figure out what a 
> certain USE flag actually does an if you want it. Debian doesn't give you that 
> choice.
>
>   
Is this an example of that infinite adaptability of Gentoo as a metadistro?

Thanks.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Basic queries regarding installation from an outsider looking in

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 14 June 2009 15:24:24 AG wrote:
> What you will do is spend an insane amount of time trying to figure out
> what a certain USE flag actually does an if you want it. Debian doesn't
> give you that choice.
>
>
>  Is this an example of that infinite adaptability of Gentoo as a
> metadistro?

Yes. In fact, this is Gentoo's major strength - the ability to have a 
customized installation that does exactly what you want with no additional 
junk, an do it in an automated sane fashion that can be maintained.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com