[gentoo-user] Gentoo Installer and Handbook (Was: Re: Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?)

[gentoo-user] Gentoo Installer and Handbook (Was: Re: Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?)

[Mark David Dumlao]

On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:27 AM, Sebastian Günther
<samson@guenther-roetgen.de> wrote:
> * Nikos Chantziaras (realnc@arcor.de) [05.02.09 09:12]:
>>
>> Than I'll rephrase my statement: Gentoo would need a non-bugged GUI
>> installer ;)
>>
> No, Gentoo needs no GUI or CLI installer. It is very good, that if you
> install Gentoo for the first time, you must actually read the
> documentation, because it introduces you in the whole managing Gentoo
> stuff. What is important in the Handbook are not the commandline
> examples, but the surrunding text.

A student of the path heard about Ubuntu, and wanted to try it, and
learn about it. He asked his friend, a Linux guru, about it.

"Where can I find an installer of Ubuntu?", he asked.

Rummaging about his stuff, his friend replied: "Here, I have an extra
Ubuntu CD for you.". After thanking his friend, he got about his
business and went to install Ubuntu on a spare machine.

After a while, he wanted to install other applications on his Ubuntu
machine, but he didn't know how to do it. He quickly called up his
friend and asked about it.

"Where can I find the official documentation for Ubuntu?", he asked.

"Read the documentation and manuals at these links," said his friend,
who pointed at the site containing the offiicial documentation. After
thanking his friend, he got about his business and learned a bit about
his Ubuntu machine.

Several months later, at the Ubuntu forums, he notices several users
mentioning Gentoo over and over again. He quickly decides to give this
Gentoo a try, and asks his friend where to get an installer.

"Read the documentation and manuals at these links," said his friend,
who pointed at the site containing the official documentation.

This answer confused the student, and after skimming the pages for a
while, he notices that the documentation is too huge for him to read
in a single sitting. He then asks his friend if he has a copy of the
documentation for reference when he gets home.

Rummaging about his stuff, his friend replied: "Here, I have an extra
Gentoo CD for you."

The student was even more confused. "Why is it that when I asked you
for an installer, you pointed me to the documentation, but when I
asked you for the documentation, you gave me a CD? Why didn't you give
me a CD installer the first time around?"

To which the guru replied: "If you just want a CD installer, then you
can have this.", and he gave the student another Ubuntu CD.

At this point the student was enlightened.

RE: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Installer and Handbook (Was: Re: Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?)

[James Homuth]

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark David Dumlao [mailto:madumlao@gmail.com] 
Sent: February 21, 2009 1:12 PM
To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Installer and Handbook (Was: Re: Gentoo's
advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?)

To which the guru replied: "If you just want a CD installer, then you can
have this.", and he gave the student another Ubuntu CD.

At this point the student was enlightened.

I think you just outlined the exact kind of "help" that keeps most people
from switching to Gentoo. If that had been, for example, you and I having
that particular conversation, I'd of probably smacked you with the CD and
got my answers from somewhere else. Since most people, particularly most
people new to linux, assume CD == installer. Also, while I like the general
do it yourself attitude Gentoo takes right from instalation, there's nothing
accessible about it. Which means, even though I know all the information's
right there on the CD, I still won't actually be able to do it (can't see
the screen, after all). So yes, there are still areas wherein the use of an
installer, or even just the provision of better software on the CD, would
probably make it easier for people to get into it.

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Installer and Handbook (Was: Re: Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?)

[William Hubbs]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi James,

On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 01:29:18PM -0500, James Homuth wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark David Dumlao [mailto:madumlao@gmail.com] 
> Sent: February 21, 2009 1:12 PM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Installer and Handbook (Was: Re: Gentoo's
> advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?)
> 
> To which the guru replied: "If you just want a CD installer, then you can
> have this.", and he gave the student another Ubuntu CD.
> 
> At this point the student was enlightened.
> 
> I think you just outlined the exact kind of "help" that keeps most people
> from switching to Gentoo. If that had been, for example, you and I having
> that particular conversation, I'd of probably smacked you with the CD and
> got my answers from somewhere else. Since most people, particularly most
> people new to linux, assume CD == installer. Also, while I like the general
> do it yourself attitude Gentoo takes right from instalation, there's nothing
> accessible about it. Which means, even though I know all the information's
> right there on the CD, I still won't actually be able to do it (can't see
> the screen, after all). So yes, there are still areas wherein the use of an
> installer, or even just the provision of better software on the CD, would
> probably make it easier for people to get into it.
 
 Are you on the gentoo-accessibility mailing list?  You might want to
 subscribe there.  There are a couple of things that still need to
 happen (like getting espeakup and speakup to go stable) before we can
 get them put on the live cd, but that is being worked on.

 For now, the last live cd with speakup on it was 2007.0, so you have to
 install from that cd.

For now, it is possible with the 2008.0 live cd to install over an ssh
connection if you can get to the box that way.

- -- 
William Hubbs
gentoo accessibility team lead
williamh@gentoo.org
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RE: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Installer and Handbook (Was: Re: Gentoo'sadvantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?)

[James Homuth]

 

-----Original Message-----
From: William Hubbs [mailto:williamh@gentoo.org] 
Sent: February 21, 2009 2:21 PM
To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Installer and Handbook (Was: Re:
Gentoo'sadvantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?)

 Are you on the gentoo-accessibility mailing list?  You might want to
subscribe there.  There are a couple of things that still need to  happen
(like getting espeakup and speakup to go stable) before we can  get them put
on the live cd, but that is being worked on.

I am, yes. Though admittedly not for very long.

 For now, the last live cd with speakup on it was 2007.0, so you have to
install from that cd.

 Can you run speakup etc with software speech off the 2007.0 CD?

For now, it is possible with the 2008.0 live cd to install over an ssh
connection if you can get to the box that way.

I was thinking of possibly doing that, too. Hopefully it'll play nice with
the box's hardware (it's a 5-year-old HP laptop).

[gentoo-user] Installing gentoo (was gentoo installer and handbook)

[William Hubbs]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi again James,

I am moving this thread to gentoo-accessibility, so can we continue
discussion there?

On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 02:27:13PM -0500, James Homuth wrote:
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Hubbs [mailto:williamh@gentoo.org] 
> Sent: February 21, 2009 2:21 PM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Installer and Handbook (Was: Re:
> Gentoo'sadvantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?)
> 
>  Are you on the gentoo-accessibility mailing list?  You might want to
> subscribe there.  There are a couple of things that still need to  happen
> (like getting espeakup and speakup to go stable) before we can  get them put
> on the live cd, but that is being worked on.
> 
> I am, yes. Though admittedly not for very long.
> 
>  For now, the last live cd with speakup on it was 2007.0, so you have to
> install from that cd.
> 
>  Can you run speakup etc with software speech off the 2007.0 CD?
 
 No, software speech is not supported on that cd.  You will need a
 hardware synthesizer.

> For now, it is possible with the 2008.0 live cd to install over an ssh
> connection if you can get to the box that way.
> 
> I was thinking of possibly doing that, too. Hopefully it'll play nice with
> the box's hardware (it's a 5-year-old HP laptop).

To make sshd start up automatically on the 2008.0 live cd, type
something like this at the boot prompt:

gentoo dosshd passwd=somepassword

That will start sshd.  Also, I would suggest using the minimal cd so you
don't get an x environment.

- ---
William Hubbs
gentoo accessibility team lead
williamh@gentoo.org
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Installer and Handbook (Was: Re: Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?)

[Mark David Dumlao]

On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 2:29 AM, James Homuth <james@the-jdh.com> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark David Dumlao [mailto:madumlao@gmail.com]
> Sent: February 21, 2009 1:12 PM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Installer and Handbook (Was: Re: Gentoo's
> advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?)
>
> I think you just outlined the exact kind of "help" that keeps most people
> from switching to Gentoo. If that had been, for example, you and I having
> that particular conversation, I'd of probably smacked you with the CD and
> got my answers from somewhere else.

You don't like my koan? Originally I wanted it to be an LFS koan, but
then I figured it wouldn't be half as subtle.

RE: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Installer and Handbook (Was: Re: Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?)

[Jesús Guerrero]

El Sab, 21 de Febrero de 2009, 19:29, James Homuth escribió:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark David Dumlao [mailto:madumlao@gmail.com]
> Sent: February 21, 2009 1:12 PM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Installer and Handbook (Was: Re: Gentoo's
> advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?)
>
>
> To which the guru replied: "If you just want a CD installer, then you can
>  have this.", and he gave the student another Ubuntu CD.
>
> At this point the student was enlightened.
>
>
> I think you just outlined the exact kind of "help" that keeps most people
>  from switching to Gentoo. If that had been, for example, you and I
> having that particular conversation, I'd of probably smacked you with the
> CD and

Assume it: Gentoo is not for most people. If you lack the ability
to read a manual, use the Ubuntu installer or whatever else.

Why do the people keep wanting to convert Gentoo in yet another
Ubuntu? If you don't like it don't use it, and let us live with
what we are happy.

-- 
Jesús Guerrero