From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([69.77.167.62] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LVYEG-0004lj-A7 for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Fri, 06 Feb 2009 21:27:16 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E8592E039B; Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:27:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.9]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87540E039B for ; Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:27:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([92.50.83.196]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu8) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0ML31I-1LVYED18pd-0000tf; Fri, 06 Feb 2009 22:27:13 +0100 Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 22:27:12 +0100 From: Sebastian =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FCnther?= To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh? Message-ID: <20090206212712.GC9780@marvin.heimnetz.local> References: <200902042224.55289.alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> <1233779854.4596.41.camel@silversword> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/Uq4LBwYP4y1W6pO" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19bpwbuGcjz3LSq8hP2BsQrFvH391EqOv3ijJ1 mvKgycAIW9YTS1qwFeSENXCUpXQEmaxzKUrUPhuYoB50BMpFj0 q6200Ahd6Ntcgbn5arRkA== X-Archives-Salt: 3f2178e9-7030-4b2c-9d67-60385085a97b X-Archives-Hash: 783a380a1231e4e9bcf38561f65e1227 --/Uq4LBwYP4y1W6pO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Nikos Chantziaras (realnc@arcor.de) [05.02.09 09:12]: > > Than I'll rephrase my statement: Gentoo would need a non-bugged GUI=20 > installer ;) > No, Gentoo needs no GUI or CLI installer. It is very good, that if you=20 install Gentoo for the first time, you must actually read the=20 documentation, because it introduces you in the whole managing Gentoo=20 stuff. What is important in the Handbook are not the commandline=20 examples, but the surrunding text. Also you cannot just click away any=20 defaults: Gentoo is about choise and YOU have to make the choices even=20 when you are just installing. And you can only make good choices, when=20 you read about them. BTW: Most of the choices have no meaningful=20 default. What would make things easier is a fully automated installer, that just=20 duplicates/repeat your well-thought-out choices on reinstalls or=20 multiple installs. Something like: Her is an xml file, eat this and see=20 you tomorrow at lunch time with a smiling SLiM. > >> Then they ran away yelling how bad this gentoo crap is that >> doesn't work at all unless you do a lot of black magic on the >> command line! "Because I want full control over my system, but >> only clicking next. The OS should read my mind!" > > I don't think anyone should care about that. Installation and maintenanc= e=20 > are two different things. A good GUI installer would pretty much allow y= ou=20 > to do the same things as the CLI installer. It's just a different=20 > interface. And besides, installation is much more "standardized" than=20 > actual maintenance. There's no reason why a GUI installer can't do the= =20 > same things as the CLI one. You'll just have GUI widgets instead of=20 > text-mode characters, maybe with a lot of automation and safe defaults=20 > thrown in. > Well, there isn't even a CLI installer. And on Gentoo I have to=20 disagree on the fact that that installation is always the same, the very=20 fact of kernel configuration makes it impossible to standardize=20 anything. And Genkernel is so Un-Gentoo: If you don't know how to configure your=20 kernel, you have chosen the wrong way at the very beginning. > Personally, even though I'm an old fart (I installed Slackware when it=20 > first came out, used it for years), I prefer GUI installers. Installation= =20 > is *boring*. I need to do the steps manually even though they're pretty= =20 > much the same every time you install. You don't need a GUI: you need an automatic installer.=20 > I'm OK with CLI maintenance. But for the installer I really prefer GUI. > > >> If we clear that from the beginning so everyone knows what to >> expect from gentoo AND WHAT GENTOO EXPECTS FROM YOU then that >> problem is gone. > > You don't need to make such a statement through the installer. There are= =20 > other, more suitable places for this. Like in the docs, website, or a=20 > notice in the... installer :) > > Also, Gentoo isn't really black magic. There's no good reason why emerge= =20 > for example isn't GUI based. Or revdep-rebuild. Or layman. Or... I hop= e=20 > you get the point ;) Yes, those things need a lot of work and there are = no=20 > people willing to do the task. But I'm just trying to make a point here:= =20 > the way you do maintenance in Gentoo isn't based on the traditional Unix= =20 > tools. That means, you could have GUIs for all of them. > Well, you have to have CLI, because X is not mandatory.=20 Besides: If you want GUI, write it. It is not that hard to write a=20 wrapper around those tools, which uses gtk or qt or whatever gui=20 toolkit. > But I'm drifting. The installer is pretty much separated from all this. = =20 > After all, "all" it needs to do is set up stage3 and tweak the settings. > > > > GUIs for the simple things is good. Maybe CLI for the hairy stuff. > I hate GUIs. Clicking is for Apple Users... > >> Someone would argue that's too hard to start, but that's why >> we have excellent docs, mailing lists, forums and irc, with >> a very high traffic and lots of friendly people giving away >> their time for free to help you. So, whomever can't find a >> way is either too lazy or too shy to talk to the people around. >> Gentoo was never meant to win a popularity price. I prefer to >> stay without nothing at all that to have the lot of problems >> that the installer has been creating during 3 years of existence. >> It harmed the gentoo popularity (if you like that argument) >> much more than the lack of a installer. > > But popularity is good for the project. It ensures that it stays healthy= ,=20 > supported and can draw in new devs. If popularity gows down, devs leave,= =20 > more bugs show up that don't get fixed, etc. > But Gentoo is for nerds. For those who know what they are doing. For the=20 ones that what to learn what is really going on and the ones that only=20 want those things they need, not what a maintainer thought would be=20 useful to have. Gentoo does not need the usual computer user nor can it serve them:=20 There is too less knowledge to make appropiate choices. This does not disclose people who have the faintest idea what a kernel conf= ig=20 =66rom using it, but from maintaining and installing it.=20 Gentoo can be your first Linux, but usually it isn't; you come here=20 because you don't get what you want from the other distros: insight and=20 control. We need to be the better Linux for nerds. We are cool, because we let=20 you roll^^^^emerge your own. BTW: I came because of performance: Could not watch an .avi in X on my=20 pentium III (666 Mhz iirc) with debian. Took days for the stage 1=20 install, but then: like a rocket... > >> Besides that, there's no easy way that you will understand Gentoo >> if you are not going to read the handbook. And even then, it takes >> time to become familiar with the way that USE flags truly work >> (and I mean to understand it, and not just do -qt -kde +gnome +gtk >> blindly that most users do (or the other way around) without >> even knowing what's behind the scene and how USE flags and ebuilds >> relate to each other. > > Now this is actually a pro-GUI argument. Why? In a GUI interface, you c= an=20 > simply throw the truth at the user's face in an elegant way. "Well dude,= =20 > those USE flags you see here actually control the way we are going to bui= ld=20 > the sources. Click here to get a description of what the gtk flag means f= or=20 > this package." > > The user learns. The user will *never* click here. They click OK. > > >> Let's assume it: you are building a distro. It's easy enough as it >> is. Usability is good, but the only way that Gentoo could get >> easier is just by taking features away and lowering the degree of >> control that the users have. > > Gentoo is easy as it is. How easier could it get? GUI tools don't reall= y=20 > result in less features. They're only there to deal with the most common= =20 > of them. > That why no one cares: I want to have full control, and this=20 obfustication does not help. And a Gui with all options and the man page=20 as tooltips is as hellish as any Windows GUI can get. > >> There are enough easy-to-use distros. Let us, "masochists", live in >> peace. We love pain, why do people care so much about what we do >> with our privacy? :P [it's a joke, in case anyone didn't notice] > > You would still be free to use the CLI. Hell, even I would for many=20 > things. But an nice tray icon that goes like "Gentoo Updates are=20 > available" wouldn't hurt me either. I click it, the emerge GUI shows up = ;) > First of all: There are enough Gentoo installs without X arround the=20 world. Second: Writing GUIs btw is far more boring than installing... Third: There are *always* updates for gentoo. so put eix-sync in a=20 cronjob. Last not least: Well, the panel plugin for arbitrary command execution=20 exists (eg. diff-eix /var/cache/eix.previous) , and it shouldn't be hard=20 to add a starter with xterm emerge -DuN @world... > >> There have been several attempts to make a decent installer. They >> all failed miserably and got abandoned. Why? Because to tell the >> truth, no one has an authentic interest in the matter. The simple >> answer is most probably the right one. > > And that's because Gentoo is not really popular. :P > The really problem is, that it seems that Ubuntu is sometimes more up to=20 date than Gentoo... So the problem is what Steve Ballmer said: Developers, developers,=20 developers! Notice self: I should really think about getting more involved... > >> By the way, did I already said that anyone that can read can also >> install Gentoo? Lost of people with no experience with linux did >> it with very little or no help. > > GUIs have fonts. You can read those too ;) > > But noone will read it. Did you ever read anything the Windows Installer=20 stated to you when there only was OK and Abort? Sebastian --=20 " Religion ist das Opium des Volkes. " Karl Marx SEB@STI@N G=DCNTHER mailto:samson@guenther-roetgen.de --/Uq4LBwYP4y1W6pO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmMqzAACgkQ4zavaU1MGbS/hACdHwR3CFDzrJ6ZkLULARuL2L1K 2eQAn1+/JtMjOxPdc8Ol35Sejy93kJxH =ZCU4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/Uq4LBwYP4y1W6pO--