[gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Paul Hartman]

Hi,

I normally do "emerge -uDvN @world" (or in other words "emerge
--update --deep --verbose --newuse @world"). Right now, it tells me
this:

Total: 0 packages, Size of downloads: 0 kB

I also --depclean on a regular basis to remove any unneeded packages.
Right now, it tells me this:

No packages selected for removal by depclean

Based on those two commands, I'm led to believe I have a fully updated
system. So, then, I am curious why when I do "emerge -e @world" it
tells me this:

Total: 1432 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 14 new, 1407
reinstalls, 1 interactive), Size of downloads: 76,235 kB

How is that possible? Where do those upgrades, downgrades and new
packages come from? What is missing from my traditional "-uDvN"
command that is causing me to miss some of those updates?

Thanks,
Paul

[gentoo-user] Re: 'emerge -e world' question

[Paul Hartman]

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Paul Hartman
<paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I normally do "emerge -uDvN @world" (or in other words "emerge
> --update --deep --verbose --newuse @world"). Right now, it tells me
> this:
>
> Total: 0 packages, Size of downloads: 0 kB
>
> I also --depclean on a regular basis to remove any unneeded packages.
> Right now, it tells me this:
>
> No packages selected for removal by depclean
>
> Based on those two commands, I'm led to believe I have a fully updated
> system. So, then, I am curious why when I do "emerge -e @world" it
> tells me this:
>
> Total: 1432 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 14 new, 1407
> reinstalls, 1 interactive), Size of downloads: 76,235 kB
>
> How is that possible? Where do those upgrades, downgrades and new
> packages come from? What is missing from my traditional "-uDvN"
> command that is causing me to miss some of those updates?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul

Before anyone responds I will throw in my theory :)

I'm using ~amd64 and I suppose perhaps the ebuilds have changed since
I installed them, but have not had a version increase. So, the
foobar-0.10 installed on my box has different dependencies than the
foobar-0.10 currently in portage, and portage doesn't check for
same-version changes unless you re-emerge it.

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 13 January 2009 17:44:37 Paul Hartman wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I normally do "emerge -uDvN @world" (or in other words "emerge
> --update --deep --verbose --newuse @world"). Right now, it tells me
> this:
>
> Total: 0 packages, Size of downloads: 0 kB
>
> I also --depclean on a regular basis to remove any unneeded packages.
> Right now, it tells me this:
>
> No packages selected for removal by depclean
>
> Based on those two commands, I'm led to believe I have a fully updated
> system. So, then, I am curious why when I do "emerge -e @world" it
> tells me this:
>
> Total: 1432 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 14 new, 1407
> reinstalls, 1 interactive), Size of downloads: 76,235 kB
>
> How is that possible? Where do those upgrades, downgrades and new
> packages come from? What is missing from my traditional "-uDvN"
> command that is causing me to miss some of those updates?

read the man page.

Especially the bit about bdeps - these are usually not included 
in 'emerge -uND world' but will be included when you use -e


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Albert Hopkins]

On Tue, 2009-01-13 at 09:44 -0600, Paul Hartman wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I normally do "emerge -uDvN @world" (or in other words "emerge
> --update --deep --verbose --newuse @world"). Right now, it tells me
> this:
> 
> Total: 0 packages, Size of downloads: 0 kB
> 
> I also --depclean on a regular basis to remove any unneeded packages.
> Right now, it tells me this:
> 
> No packages selected for removal by depclean
> 
> Based on those two commands, I'm led to believe I have a fully updated
> system. So, then, I am curious why when I do "emerge -e @world" it
> tells me this:
> 
> Total: 1432 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 14 new, 1407
> reinstalls, 1 interactive), Size of downloads: 76,235 kB
> 
> How is that possible? Where do those upgrades, downgrades and new
> packages come from? What is missing from my traditional "-uDvN"
> command that is causing me to miss some of those updates?

Well for one "emerge -e" will pull in build-time dependencies which
"emerge -u" won't (unless it's necessary for an upgrade). So
hypothetically let's say you have firefox in your world file, and you
have the latest so "emerge -u @world" doesn't pick it up, but say you
"emerge -e @world" and firefox needs "=automake-1.6.*" to build, but you
don't have that version anymore because, say --depclean or something
else cleared it out or you have automake-1.6.1 installed but it's no
longer in portage but 1.6.3 is, then automake-1.6.3 might show up as New
or Upgrade or even Downgrade (since it's slotted).

-a

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Mike Kazantsev]

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On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:52:05 +0200
Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> read the man page.
> 
> Especially the bit about bdeps - these are usually not included 
> in 'emerge -uND world' but will be included when you use -e

I'd also suggest checking out the @installed set.

-- 
Mike Kazantsev // fraggod.net

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Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Paul Hartman]

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday 13 January 2009 17:44:37 Paul Hartman wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I normally do "emerge -uDvN @world" (or in other words "emerge
>> --update --deep --verbose --newuse @world"). Right now, it tells me
>> this:
>>
>> Total: 0 packages, Size of downloads: 0 kB
>>
>> I also --depclean on a regular basis to remove any unneeded packages.
>> Right now, it tells me this:
>>
>> No packages selected for removal by depclean
>>
>> Based on those two commands, I'm led to believe I have a fully updated
>> system. So, then, I am curious why when I do "emerge -e @world" it
>> tells me this:
>>
>> Total: 1432 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 14 new, 1407
>> reinstalls, 1 interactive), Size of downloads: 76,235 kB
>>
>> How is that possible? Where do those upgrades, downgrades and new
>> packages come from? What is missing from my traditional "-uDvN"
>> command that is causing me to miss some of those updates?
>
> read the man page.
>
> Especially the bit about bdeps - these are usually not included
> in 'emerge -uND world' but will be included when you use -e

Well, I've read about that before and am using the default bdep
behavior but I guess I don't understand it entirely.

I've isolated basically all of the new/changed packages down to
openoffice-3.0.0 -- if I do "emerge -vtp openoffice" it shows me this:

[ebuild   R   ] app-office/openoffice-3.0.0  USE="binfilter cups dbus
gtk java kde ldap mono nsplugin opengl pam -debug -eds -gnome
-gstreamer -odk -templates" LINGUAS="en en_US -af -ar -as_IN -be_BY
-bg -bn -br -bs -ca -cs -cy -da -de -dz -el -en_GB -en_ZA -eo -es -et
-fa -fi -fr -ga -gl -gu_IN -he -hi_IN -hr -hu -it -ja -km -ko -ku -lt
-lv -mk -ml_IN -mr_IN -nb -ne -nl -nn -nr -ns -or_IN -pa_IN -pl -pt
-pt_BR -ru -rw -sh -sk -sl -sr -ss -st -sv -sw_TZ -ta_IN -te_IN -tg
-th -ti_ER -tn -tr -ts -uk -ur_IN -ve -vi -xh -zh_CN -zh_TW -zu"
10,552 kB

So, apparently openoffice has ~10 megabytes of unfetched files even
though I have not deleted any openoffice distfiles since I emerged it
in November. That would make me think maybe the ebuild has changed
without a version number change. Checking the date on the ebuild it is
January 11 2009.  However, the date on
/var/db/pkg/app-office/openoffice-3.0.0/openoffice-3.0.0.ebuild is
November 3 2008. A diff of the files shows some material changes
(downloading newer builds from go-oo.org etc). So in this particular
case I think my suspicion about the ebuild changing without a version
number revision might be right.

When I do "emerge -Dtp openoffice" it shows this:

Calculating dependencies ... done!
[ebuild   R   ] app-office/openoffice-3.0.0
[nomerge      ]  dev-perl/Archive-Zip-1.26
[ebuild     UD]   virtual/perl-File-Spec-3.29 [3.2701]
[ebuild     UD]    perl-core/File-Spec-3.29 [3.2701]
[nomerge      ] dev-perl/Archive-Zip-1.26
[nomerge      ]  perl-core/File-Spec-3.29 [3.2701]
[nomerge      ]   perl-core/Module-Build-0.31
[ebuild  N    ]    virtual/perl-ExtUtils-ParseXS-2.19
[ebuild  N    ]     perl-core/ExtUtils-ParseXS-2.19
[ebuild  N    ]      virtual/perl-Module-Build-0.31
[ebuild  N    ]       perl-core/Module-Build-0.31
[ebuild  N    ]        virtual/perl-Archive-Tar-1.42
[ebuild  N    ]         perl-core/Archive-Tar-1.42  USE="bzip2"
[ebuild  N    ]          dev-perl/IO-Compress-Bzip2-2.015
[ebuild  N    ]           dev-perl/Compress-Raw-Bzip2-2.015  USE="-test"
[ebuild  N    ]          perl-core/Package-Constants-0.02
[ebuild  N    ]          dev-perl/IO-String-1.08
[ebuild  N    ]          virtual/perl-IO-Zlib-1.09
[ebuild  N    ]        dev-perl/yaml-0.68
[nomerge      ] virtual/perl-IO-Zlib-1.09
[ebuild  N    ]  perl-core/IO-Zlib-1.09
[nomerge      ] perl-core/File-Spec-3.29 [3.2701]
[ebuild  N    ]  virtual/perl-ExtUtils-CBuilder-0.24

I'm still not entirely clear on why those appear with --deep
openoffice but not --deep world. If they are build-time deps, wouldn't
they be included when I emerge openofifce without --deep? If they are
related to dev-perl/Archive-Zip-1.26 (as it appears), which is
installed, why don't they get touched by @world? Maybe I just can't
wrap my brain around how it works, please have patience with me.
thanks :)

Paul

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Paul Hartman]

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Mike Kazantsev
<mike_kazantsev@fraggod.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:52:05 +0200
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> read the man page.
>>
>> Especially the bit about bdeps - these are usually not included
>> in 'emerge -uND world' but will be included when you use -e
>
> I'd also suggest checking out the @installed set.

Thanks, I haven't tried that before... emerge -up @installed gives me
quite a surprising result:

Total: 290 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 122 new, 157 in new
slots), Size of downloads: 190,301 kB
Conflict: 3 blocks (3 unsatisfied)

It seems to want to install all of KDE4 (which I'm not using... not
sure why that is?), aside from that, though, there are a handful of
non-KDE packages that do show up for upgrades/downgrades.

Thanks,
Paul

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Paul Hartman]

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Paul Hartman
<paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday 13 January 2009 17:44:37 Paul Hartman wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I normally do "emerge -uDvN @world" (or in other words "emerge
>>> --update --deep --verbose --newuse @world"). Right now, it tells me
>>> this:
>>>
>>> Total: 0 packages, Size of downloads: 0 kB
>>>
>>> I also --depclean on a regular basis to remove any unneeded packages.
>>> Right now, it tells me this:
>>>
>>> No packages selected for removal by depclean
>>>
>>> Based on those two commands, I'm led to believe I have a fully updated
>>> system. So, then, I am curious why when I do "emerge -e @world" it
>>> tells me this:
>>>
>>> Total: 1432 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 14 new, 1407
>>> reinstalls, 1 interactive), Size of downloads: 76,235 kB
>>>
>>> How is that possible? Where do those upgrades, downgrades and new
>>> packages come from? What is missing from my traditional "-uDvN"
>>> command that is causing me to miss some of those updates?
>>
>> read the man page.
>>
>> Especially the bit about bdeps - these are usually not included
>> in 'emerge -uND world' but will be included when you use -e
>
> Well, I've read about that before and am using the default bdep
> behavior but I guess I don't understand it entirely.
>
> I've isolated basically all of the new/changed packages down to
> openoffice-3.0.0 -- if I do "emerge -vtp openoffice" it shows me this:
>
> [ebuild   R   ] app-office/openoffice-3.0.0  USE="binfilter cups dbus
> gtk java kde ldap mono nsplugin opengl pam -debug -eds -gnome
> -gstreamer -odk -templates" LINGUAS="en en_US -af -ar -as_IN -be_BY
> -bg -bn -br -bs -ca -cs -cy -da -de -dz -el -en_GB -en_ZA -eo -es -et
> -fa -fi -fr -ga -gl -gu_IN -he -hi_IN -hr -hu -it -ja -km -ko -ku -lt
> -lv -mk -ml_IN -mr_IN -nb -ne -nl -nn -nr -ns -or_IN -pa_IN -pl -pt
> -pt_BR -ru -rw -sh -sk -sl -sr -ss -st -sv -sw_TZ -ta_IN -te_IN -tg
> -th -ti_ER -tn -tr -ts -uk -ur_IN -ve -vi -xh -zh_CN -zh_TW -zu"
> 10,552 kB
>
> So, apparently openoffice has ~10 megabytes of unfetched files even
> though I have not deleted any openoffice distfiles since I emerged it
> in November. That would make me think maybe the ebuild has changed
> without a version number change. Checking the date on the ebuild it is
> January 11 2009.  However, the date on
> /var/db/pkg/app-office/openoffice-3.0.0/openoffice-3.0.0.ebuild is
> November 3 2008. A diff of the files shows some material changes
> (downloading newer builds from go-oo.org etc). So in this particular
> case I think my suspicion about the ebuild changing without a version
> number revision might be right.
>
> When I do "emerge -Dtp openoffice" it shows this:
>
> Calculating dependencies ... done!
> [ebuild   R   ] app-office/openoffice-3.0.0
> [nomerge      ]  dev-perl/Archive-Zip-1.26
> [ebuild     UD]   virtual/perl-File-Spec-3.29 [3.2701]
> [ebuild     UD]    perl-core/File-Spec-3.29 [3.2701]
> [nomerge      ] dev-perl/Archive-Zip-1.26
> [nomerge      ]  perl-core/File-Spec-3.29 [3.2701]
> [nomerge      ]   perl-core/Module-Build-0.31
> [ebuild  N    ]    virtual/perl-ExtUtils-ParseXS-2.19
> [ebuild  N    ]     perl-core/ExtUtils-ParseXS-2.19
> [ebuild  N    ]      virtual/perl-Module-Build-0.31
> [ebuild  N    ]       perl-core/Module-Build-0.31
> [ebuild  N    ]        virtual/perl-Archive-Tar-1.42
> [ebuild  N    ]         perl-core/Archive-Tar-1.42  USE="bzip2"
> [ebuild  N    ]          dev-perl/IO-Compress-Bzip2-2.015
> [ebuild  N    ]           dev-perl/Compress-Raw-Bzip2-2.015  USE="-test"
> [ebuild  N    ]          perl-core/Package-Constants-0.02
> [ebuild  N    ]          dev-perl/IO-String-1.08
> [ebuild  N    ]          virtual/perl-IO-Zlib-1.09
> [ebuild  N    ]        dev-perl/yaml-0.68
> [nomerge      ] virtual/perl-IO-Zlib-1.09
> [ebuild  N    ]  perl-core/IO-Zlib-1.09
> [nomerge      ] perl-core/File-Spec-3.29 [3.2701]
> [ebuild  N    ]  virtual/perl-ExtUtils-CBuilder-0.24
>
> I'm still not entirely clear on why those appear with --deep
> openoffice but not --deep world. If they are build-time deps, wouldn't
> they be included when I emerge openofifce without --deep? If they are
> related to dev-perl/Archive-Zip-1.26 (as it appears), which is
> installed, why don't they get touched by @world? Maybe I just can't
> wrap my brain around how it works, please have patience with me.
> thanks :)
>
> Paul
>

I've found that emerge -vtp @downgrade presents me with almost the
same list (sans openoffice):

[ebuild     UD] virtual/perl-File-Spec-3.29 [3.2701] 0 kB
[ebuild     UD]  perl-core/File-Spec-3.29 [3.2701] 128 kB
[nomerge      ] perl-core/File-Spec-3.29 [3.2701]
[nomerge      ]  perl-core/Module-Build-0.31
[ebuild  N    ]   virtual/perl-ExtUtils-ParseXS-2.19  0 kB
[ebuild  N    ]    perl-core/ExtUtils-ParseXS-2.19  0 kB
[ebuild  N    ]     virtual/perl-Module-Build-0.31  0 kB
[ebuild  N    ]      perl-core/Module-Build-0.31  204 kB
[ebuild  N    ]       virtual/perl-Archive-Tar-1.42  0 kB
[ebuild  N    ]        perl-core/Archive-Tar-1.42  USE="bzip2" 48 kB
[ebuild  N    ]         dev-perl/IO-Compress-Bzip2-2.015  74 kB
[ebuild  N    ]          dev-perl/Compress-Raw-Bzip2-2.015  USE="-test" 138 kB
[ebuild  N    ]         perl-core/Package-Constants-0.02  3 kB
[ebuild  N    ]         dev-perl/IO-String-1.08  0 kB
[ebuild  N    ]         virtual/perl-IO-Zlib-1.09  0 kB
[ebuild  N    ]       dev-perl/yaml-0.68  91 kB
[nomerge      ] virtual/perl-IO-Zlib-1.09
[ebuild  N    ]  perl-core/IO-Zlib-1.09  0 kB
[nomerge      ] perl-core/File-Spec-3.29 [3.2701]
[ebuild  N    ]  virtual/perl-ExtUtils-CBuilder-0.24  0 kB

I think File-Spec-3.29 is really an upgrade from 3.2701 (which is
really 3.27.01) but portage sees 29 < 2701 so that's why it never got
included in my updates.

Things are becoming clearer :)

Thanks,
Paul

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Willie Wong]

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:20:19AM -0600, Paul Hartman wrote:
> >> I normally do "emerge -uDvN @world" (or in other words "emerge
> >> --update --deep --verbose --newuse @world"). Right now, it tells me
> >> this:

<snip>

> > read the man page.
> >
> > Especially the bit about bdeps - these are usually not included
> > in 'emerge -uND world' but will be included when you use -e

<snip>

> When I do "emerge -Dtp openoffice" it shows this:
> 
<snip>

> I'm still not entirely clear on why those appear with --deep
> openoffice but not --deep world. If they are build-time deps, wouldn't
> they be included when I emerge openofifce without --deep? If they are
> related to dev-perl/Archive-Zip-1.26 (as it appears), which is
> installed, why don't they get touched by @world? Maybe I just can't
> wrap my brain around how it works, please have patience with me.
> thanks :)

The problem with this last one is not --deep. It is --update. 

When you issued emerge --update --deep world, it found that according
to the installed ebuild portage kept, that 

  a) OpenOffice does not need rebuilding-- since there is no update
according to version number.
  b) none of the dependencies installed by openoffice needs
rebuilding, since there is no update.

But when you issued emerge --deep openoffice, you asked for portage to
consider rebuilding openoffice, which now looks at the ebuild in the
tree, which, as you noted, is different from the ebuild that you
emerged months ago. As such, any new dependencies that differs between
the two ebuilds and any build-time dependencies will need to be
satisfied. 

And my suggestion would be to just ignore this little thing with
openoffice. If open office runs, and that the ebuild change is minor
enough to not get a new release number, then you can probably wait
until the next release of openoffice to worry about updates. 

W
-- 
Willie W. Wong                                      wwong@math.princeton.edu
408 Fine Hall,  Department of Mathematics,  Princeton University,  Princeton
A mathematician's reputation rests on the number of bad proofs he has given.

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Albert Hopkins]

On Tue, 2009-01-13 at 10:25 -0600, Paul Hartman wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Mike Kazantsev
> <mike_kazantsev@fraggod.net> wrote:
> > On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:52:05 +0200
> > Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> read the man page.
> >>
> >> Especially the bit about bdeps - these are usually not included
> >> in 'emerge -uND world' but will be included when you use -e
> >
> > I'd also suggest checking out the @installed set.
> 
> Thanks, I haven't tried that before... emerge -up @installed gives me
> quite a surprising result:
> 
> Total: 290 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 122 new, 157 in new
> slots), Size of downloads: 190,301 kB
> Conflict: 3 blocks (3 unsatisfied)
> 
> It seems to want to install all of KDE4 (which I'm not using... not
> sure why that is?), aside from that, though, there are a handful of
> non-KDE packages that do show up for upgrades/downgrades.

My guess is that you are using KDE3?  If that's the case then what
'emerge -up @installed' *is likely* doing is:

for each package in @installed:
    emerge -u package

So, e.g. if you have kopete-3 installed then it will want to upgrade to
kopeted-4.  It's doing what you tell it to, though not exactly what you
expected.  The "handful of non-KDE packages" is are likely dependencies
(whether build-time or run-time) of said packages.

I myself don't see any reason to use "-u @installed".  For example on my
system it wants to upgrade musicbrainz to 3.0.2, but musicbrainz is not
in my world file and I don't have anything that depends on 3.0.2 (only
2.1.*) so it's an unnecessary upgrade.  My guess is that a subsequent
--depclean will unmerge it anyway.

-a

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Willie Wong]

Hum, I seem to have made an erroneous assumption.

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 11:38:05AM -0500, Willie Wong wrote:
> The problem with this last one is not --deep. It is --update. 

Nevermind, I looked at the changelogs for openoffice and
dev-perl/Archive-Zip, and frankly, I am pretty sure what I said was
completely wrong in this situation. And also, frankly, I am becoming
as confused as you are about your problem. 

W
-- 
Willie W. Wong                                      wwong@math.princeton.edu
408 Fine Hall,  Department of Mathematics,  Princeton University,  Princeton
A mathematician's reputation rests on the number of bad proofs he has given.

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Paul Hartman]

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Willie Wong <wwong@princeton.edu> wrote:
> Hum, I seem to have made an erroneous assumption.
>
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 11:38:05AM -0500, Willie Wong wrote:
>> The problem with this last one is not --deep. It is --update.
>
> Nevermind, I looked at the changelogs for openoffice and
> dev-perl/Archive-Zip, and frankly, I am pretty sure what I said was
> completely wrong in this situation. And also, frankly, I am becoming
> as confused as you are about your problem.

I "downgraded" to File-Spec-3.29 (actually an upgrade) which in turn
emerged/updated the rest of that bunch of perl-related packages. Now
I'm re-emerging openoffice-3.0.0 since it appears to be using a newer
set of the go-oo.org patches (despite the lack of version number
change). Plus it is always fun to see how long it takes to build one
of the biggest packages there is. I have emerged it twice in the past,
the first was 1hr33m the second was 1hr55m, so I hope this one won't
exceed 2h.

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Willie Wong]

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 11:10:44AM -0600, Paul Hartman wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Willie Wong <wwong@princeton.edu> wrote:
> > Hum, I seem to have made an erroneous assumption.
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 11:38:05AM -0500, Willie Wong wrote:
> >> The problem with this last one is not --deep. It is --update.
> >
> > Nevermind, I looked at the changelogs for openoffice and
> > dev-perl/Archive-Zip, and frankly, I am pretty sure what I said was
> > completely wrong in this situation. And also, frankly, I am becoming
> > as confused as you are about your problem.
> 
> I "downgraded" to File-Spec-3.29 (actually an upgrade) which in turn
> emerged/updated the rest of that bunch of perl-related packages. Now
> I'm re-emerging openoffice-3.0.0 since it appears to be using a newer
> set of the go-oo.org patches (despite the lack of version number
> change). Plus it is always fun to see how long it takes to build one
> of the biggest packages there is. I have emerged it twice in the past,
> the first was 1hr33m the second was 1hr55m, so I hope this one won't
> exceed 2h.

I don't find that explanation satisfactory. (The one about upgrade vs
downgrades.) -u expands to --update means to install the *best
available version*, not the *highest version number available*. If an
ebuild goes from x86 to being hardmasked, --update should downgrade.
If an ebuild of insanely high version number gets removed, --update
should downgrade. 

I can explain why emerge openoffice and emerge --deep openoffice are
different. emerge --deep openoffice basically does something similar
to emerge --oneshot <everything openoffice has in its dependency>.
So every package in the dependency tree will be considered, and if not
at the *best* version it will be updated. Compare to emerge openoffice
where only if a change of ebuild in openoffice changes the dependency
will trigger installation of new or updated versions of dependencies.
(Basically, you already have a version of whatever perl class it
wants, and the ebuild specifies >= some really low version, so the
dependency is satisfied and won't be considered in the emerge.)

What I can't explain is why emerge --update --deep world misses the
update! dev-perl/Archive-Zip is (correct me if I am wrong: I didn't
see it mentioned in the changelogs so I assume it was not changed) in
the dependency tree of both the Nov 3 and the January versions of
openoffice. So --deep should traverse down there and find that one of
its dependencies requires an update. At least that's what I expect
based on "man emerge". 

Best, 

W
-- 
Willie W. Wong                                      wwong@math.princeton.edu
408 Fine Hall,  Department of Mathematics,  Princeton University,  Princeton
A mathematician's reputation rests on the number of bad proofs he has given.

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Paul Hartman]

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Willie Wong <wwong@princeton.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 11:10:44AM -0600, Paul Hartman wrote:
>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Willie Wong <wwong@princeton.edu> wrote:
>> > Hum, I seem to have made an erroneous assumption.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 11:38:05AM -0500, Willie Wong wrote:
>> >> The problem with this last one is not --deep. It is --update.
>> >
>> > Nevermind, I looked at the changelogs for openoffice and
>> > dev-perl/Archive-Zip, and frankly, I am pretty sure what I said was
>> > completely wrong in this situation. And also, frankly, I am becoming
>> > as confused as you are about your problem.
>>
>> I "downgraded" to File-Spec-3.29 (actually an upgrade) which in turn
>> emerged/updated the rest of that bunch of perl-related packages. Now
>> I'm re-emerging openoffice-3.0.0 since it appears to be using a newer
>> set of the go-oo.org patches (despite the lack of version number
>> change). Plus it is always fun to see how long it takes to build one
>> of the biggest packages there is. I have emerged it twice in the past,
>> the first was 1hr33m the second was 1hr55m, so I hope this one won't
>> exceed 2h.
>
> I don't find that explanation satisfactory. (The one about upgrade vs
> downgrades.) -u expands to --update means to install the *best
> available version*, not the *highest version number available*. If an
> ebuild goes from x86 to being hardmasked, --update should downgrade.
> If an ebuild of insanely high version number gets removed, --update
> should downgrade.
>
> I can explain why emerge openoffice and emerge --deep openoffice are
> different. emerge --deep openoffice basically does something similar
> to emerge --oneshot <everything openoffice has in its dependency>.
> So every package in the dependency tree will be considered, and if not
> at the *best* version it will be updated. Compare to emerge openoffice
> where only if a change of ebuild in openoffice changes the dependency
> will trigger installation of new or updated versions of dependencies.
> (Basically, you already have a version of whatever perl class it
> wants, and the ebuild specifies >= some really low version, so the
> dependency is satisfied and won't be considered in the emerge.)
>
> What I can't explain is why emerge --update --deep world misses the
> update! dev-perl/Archive-Zip is (correct me if I am wrong: I didn't
> see it mentioned in the changelogs so I assume it was not changed) in
> the dependency tree of both the Nov 3 and the January versions of
> openoffice. So --deep should traverse down there and find that one of
> its dependencies requires an update. At least that's what I expect
> based on "man emerge".

Well, Archive-Zip had File-Spec as a dep, which was a downgrade. If
you check the Changelog in perl-core/File-Spec you can see where they
renamed the version number from 3.2701 to 3.27.01.

Apparently I had installed it under the "old" version number, 3.2701
which later got renamed to 3.27.01 and was superseded by 3.29. Since
2701 wasn't masked, it just disappeared from portage and stayed
happily in my system installed packages cache, and emerge saw my
current version 2701 as a higher version number than 27.01 or 29 so it
never "upgraded" me to the newer version. That's my guess, anyway.

Would those packages which are installed but no longer in my portage
tree or one of its overlays be identified by a [?] in "emerge -evp
world" output?

Along that same line of thought, it might be interesting to make a
script to compare the cached ebuilds of installed packages against the
same version ebuilds in the portage tree to see if there were any
"stealth" updates other than openoffice.

Paul

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Dale]

Paul Hartman wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I normally do "emerge -uDvN @world" (or in other words "emerge
> --update --deep --verbose --newuse @world"). Right now, it tells me
> this:
>
> Total: 0 packages, Size of downloads: 0 kB
>
> I also --depclean on a regular basis to remove any unneeded packages.
> Right now, it tells me this:
>
> No packages selected for removal by depclean
>
> Based on those two commands, I'm led to believe I have a fully updated
> system. So, then, I am curious why when I do "emerge -e @world" it
> tells me this:
>
> Total: 1432 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 14 new, 1407
> reinstalls, 1 interactive), Size of downloads: 76,235 kB
>
> How is that possible? Where do those upgrades, downgrades and new
> packages come from? What is missing from my traditional "-uDvN"
> command that is causing me to miss some of those updates?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
>
>   


Read a few of the other posts, make sure that @world is including the
system set.  Either just use world with no @ or do a @system and @world.

--depclean should have mentioned that when you ran it too.  It does here
but you may be on a different version than I am.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Paul Hartman]

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Paul Hartman wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I normally do "emerge -uDvN @world" (or in other words "emerge
>> --update --deep --verbose --newuse @world"). Right now, it tells me
>> this:
>>
>> Total: 0 packages, Size of downloads: 0 kB
>>
>> I also --depclean on a regular basis to remove any unneeded packages.
>> Right now, it tells me this:
>>
>> No packages selected for removal by depclean
>>
>> Based on those two commands, I'm led to believe I have a fully updated
>> system. So, then, I am curious why when I do "emerge -e @world" it
>> tells me this:
>>
>> Total: 1432 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 14 new, 1407
>> reinstalls, 1 interactive), Size of downloads: 76,235 kB
>>
>> How is that possible? Where do those upgrades, downgrades and new
>> packages come from? What is missing from my traditional "-uDvN"
>> command that is causing me to miss some of those updates?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Read a few of the other posts, make sure that @world is including the
> system set.  Either just use world with no @ or do a @system and @world.
>
> --depclean should have mentioned that when you ran it too.  It does here
> but you may be on a different version than I am.

Thanks for that, I didn't realize there was a difference between
"@world" and "world". I've looked at the sets.conf file but honestly
it is over my head. My "world_sets" file does include @system, though,
so hopefully there was nothing wrong in that regard.

Thanks,
Paul

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Dale]

Paul Hartman wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Paul Hartman wrote:
>>     
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I normally do "emerge -uDvN @world" (or in other words "emerge
>>> --update --deep --verbose --newuse @world"). Right now, it tells me
>>> this:
>>>
>>> Total: 0 packages, Size of downloads: 0 kB
>>>
>>> I also --depclean on a regular basis to remove any unneeded packages.
>>> Right now, it tells me this:
>>>
>>> No packages selected for removal by depclean
>>>
>>> Based on those two commands, I'm led to believe I have a fully updated
>>> system. So, then, I am curious why when I do "emerge -e @world" it
>>> tells me this:
>>>
>>> Total: 1432 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 14 new, 1407
>>> reinstalls, 1 interactive), Size of downloads: 76,235 kB
>>>
>>> How is that possible? Where do those upgrades, downgrades and new
>>> packages come from? What is missing from my traditional "-uDvN"
>>> command that is causing me to miss some of those updates?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> Read a few of the other posts, make sure that @world is including the
>> system set.  Either just use world with no @ or do a @system and @world.
>>
>> --depclean should have mentioned that when you ran it too.  It does here
>> but you may be on a different version than I am.
>>     
>
> Thanks for that, I didn't realize there was a difference between
> "@world" and "world". I've looked at the sets.conf file but honestly
> it is over my head. My "world_sets" file does include @system, though,
> so hopefully there was nothing wrong in that regard.
>
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
>
>   

I think most installs have the system set included in world for now but
that may change in the future.  As I have posted on -dev, I see the
serious need for the sets but I wish to continue using the plain world
and it update all the packages that need updating.  I think the plain
world will be around for a while.  There were others that agreed with
that thought.  As I pointed out, if it has a @ in front, you are in the
sets section.  If not, then it is the old way.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Paul Hartman]

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Paul Hartman wrote:
>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Paul Hartman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I normally do "emerge -uDvN @world" (or in other words "emerge
>>>> --update --deep --verbose --newuse @world"). Right now, it tells me
>>>> this:
>>>>
>>>> Total: 0 packages, Size of downloads: 0 kB
>>>>
>>>> I also --depclean on a regular basis to remove any unneeded packages.
>>>> Right now, it tells me this:
>>>>
>>>> No packages selected for removal by depclean
>>>>
>>>> Based on those two commands, I'm led to believe I have a fully updated
>>>> system. So, then, I am curious why when I do "emerge -e @world" it
>>>> tells me this:
>>>>
>>>> Total: 1432 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 14 new, 1407
>>>> reinstalls, 1 interactive), Size of downloads: 76,235 kB
>>>>
>>>> How is that possible? Where do those upgrades, downgrades and new
>>>> packages come from? What is missing from my traditional "-uDvN"
>>>> command that is causing me to miss some of those updates?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Read a few of the other posts, make sure that @world is including the
>>> system set.  Either just use world with no @ or do a @system and @world.
>>>
>>> --depclean should have mentioned that when you ran it too.  It does here
>>> but you may be on a different version than I am.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for that, I didn't realize there was a difference between
>> "@world" and "world". I've looked at the sets.conf file but honestly
>> it is over my head. My "world_sets" file does include @system, though,
>> so hopefully there was nothing wrong in that regard.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>
> I think most installs have the system set included in world for now but
> that may change in the future.  As I have posted on -dev, I see the
> serious need for the sets but I wish to continue using the plain world
> and it update all the packages that need updating.  I think the plain
> world will be around for a while.  There were others that agreed with
> that thought.  As I pointed out, if it has a @ in front, you are in the
> sets section.  If not, then it is the old way.

Good point. I think I'll go back to using "world" instead of "@world",
since when I say "world" I mean "everything" and "@world" does not (or
may not) necessarily mean that.

Paul

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 579 bytes --]

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:02:48 -0600, Dale wrote:

> I think most installs have the system set included in world for now but
> that may change in the future.  As I have posted on -dev, I see the
> serious need for the sets but I wish to continue using the plain world
> and it update all the packages that need updating.  I think the plain
> world will be around for a while.

As long as you have @system in world_sets, @world behaves exactly the same
as the old world.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If you can smile when things go wrong, you have someone in mind to blame.

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] 'emerge -e world' question

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:02:48 -0600, Dale wrote:
>
>   
>> I think most installs have the system set included in world for now but
>> that may change in the future.  As I have posted on -dev, I see the
>> serious need for the sets but I wish to continue using the plain world
>> and it update all the packages that need updating.  I think the plain
>> world will be around for a while.
>>     
>
> As long as you have @system in world_sets, @world behaves exactly the same
> as the old world.
>
>
>   

It should do just that.  Since mine has that and I didn't add it, I
think portage did so I would think it would be the same on everyone
else's unless they removed it.

I think the reason for the OPs problem is the --with-bdeps y option.  I
think that was mentioned in another post tho.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: 'emerge -e world' question

[b.n.]

Paul Hartman ha scritto:
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Paul Hartman
> <paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I normally do "emerge -uDvN @world" (or in other words "emerge
>> --update --deep --verbose --newuse @world"). Right now, it tells me
>> this:
>>
>> Total: 0 packages, Size of downloads: 0 kB
>>
>> I also --depclean on a regular basis to remove any unneeded packages.
>> Right now, it tells me this:
>>
>> No packages selected for removal by depclean
>>
>> Based on those two commands, I'm led to believe I have a fully updated
>> system. So, then, I am curious why when I do "emerge -e @world" it
>> tells me this:
>>
>> Total: 1432 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 14 new, 1407
>> reinstalls, 1 interactive), Size of downloads: 76,235 kB
>>
>> How is that possible? Where do those upgrades, downgrades and new
>> packages come from? What is missing from my traditional "-uDvN"
>> command that is causing me to miss some of those updates?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Paul
> 
> Before anyone responds I will throw in my theory :)
> 
> I'm using ~amd64 and I suppose perhaps the ebuilds have changed since
> I installed them, but have not had a version increase.

It's 4 years I'm using Gentoo and I can still be surprised by it. :)
This doesn't look right. Why do devs upgrade ebuilds and do not increase
the -rX versioning?

m.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: 'emerge -e world' question

[Paul Hartman]

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 5:55 PM, b.n. <brullonulla@gmail.com> wrote:
> Paul Hartman ha scritto:
>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Paul Hartman
>> <paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I normally do "emerge -uDvN @world" (or in other words "emerge
>>> --update --deep --verbose --newuse @world"). Right now, it tells me
>>> this:
>>>
>>> Total: 0 packages, Size of downloads: 0 kB
>>>
>>> I also --depclean on a regular basis to remove any unneeded packages.
>>> Right now, it tells me this:
>>>
>>> No packages selected for removal by depclean
>>>
>>> Based on those two commands, I'm led to believe I have a fully updated
>>> system. So, then, I am curious why when I do "emerge -e @world" it
>>> tells me this:
>>>
>>> Total: 1432 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 14 new, 1407
>>> reinstalls, 1 interactive), Size of downloads: 76,235 kB
>>>
>>> How is that possible? Where do those upgrades, downgrades and new
>>> packages come from? What is missing from my traditional "-uDvN"
>>> command that is causing me to miss some of those updates?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Paul
>>
>> Before anyone responds I will throw in my theory :)
>>
>> I'm using ~amd64 and I suppose perhaps the ebuilds have changed since
>> I installed them, but have not had a version increase.
>
> It's 4 years I'm using Gentoo and I can still be surprised by it. :)
> This doesn't look right. Why do devs upgrade ebuilds and do not increase
> the -rX versioning?
>
> m.
>
>

Good question. If you look at the ChangeLog from openoffice-3.0.0 you
can see it was marked stable on x86 & amd64 in 18 Oct 2008 but the
ebuild has had some dramatic changes in the time since then, including
bug fixes, patches, etc.

My /guess/ is that since OpenOffice is such a huge package, if they
bump the -r1 -r2 -r3 very often and people have 9 hours of compiling
each time, it will annoy the gentoo population. So, instead, they use
the idea that if nothing is gained by someone with a working
openoffice, no reason to fix it (but if someone had a problem they can
just "re-emerge openoffice and see if it works now").

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: 'emerge -e world' question

[Willie Wong]

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 12:55:02AM +0100, Penguin Lover b.n. squawked:
> It's 4 years I'm using Gentoo and I can still be surprised by it. :)
> This doesn't look right. Why do devs upgrade ebuilds and do not increase
> the -rX versioning?

Look at the Gentoo Developer Handbook
  http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=3&chap=1

Specifically the section on "Versioning and revision bumps". I quote:

 "If you make an internal, stylistic change to the ebuild that does
 not change any of the installed files, then there is no need to bump
 the revision number. Likewise, if you fix a compilation problem in
 the ebuild that was affecting some users, there is no need to bump
 the revision number, since those for whom it worked perfectly would
 see no benefit in installing a new revision, and those who
 experienced the problem do not have the package installed (since
 compilation failed) and thus have no need for the new revision number
 to force an upgrade. A revision bump is also not necessary if a
 minority of users will be affected and the package has a nontrivial
 average compilation time; use your best judgement in these
 circumstances. "

The changes made to OpenOffice in this case are minor (example: a
virtual is added for some perl package, and the dependency is changed
from depending on the explicit package to the virtual), and should not
effect already working installations; furthermore, considering how 
much memory and time one needs to compile OpenOffice, I say the gentoo 
policy is quite sane about not forcing a revision bump.  

W

-- 
The police recently arrested a man selling "secret formula" tablets he claimed 
gave eternal youth. When going through their files they noticed it was the 
fifth time he was caught for committing this same criminal medical fraud. He 
had earlier bookings from 1794, 1856, 1928 and 1983....
Sortir en Pantoufles: up 767 days, 22:53

[gentoo-user] Re: 'emerge -e world' question

[»Q«]

In <496D29D6.7030004@gmail.com>,
"b.n." <brullonulla@gmail.com> wrote:

> Paul Hartman ha scritto:
> > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Paul Hartman
> > <paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I normally do "emerge -uDvN @world" (or in other words "emerge
> >> --update --deep --verbose --newuse @world"). Right now, it tells me
> >> this:
> >>
> >> Total: 0 packages, Size of downloads: 0 kB
> >>
> >> I also --depclean on a regular basis to remove any unneeded
> >> packages. Right now, it tells me this:
> >>
> >> No packages selected for removal by depclean
> >>
> >> Based on those two commands, I'm led to believe I have a fully
> >> updated system. So, then, I am curious why when I do "emerge -e
> >> @world" it tells me this:
> >>
> >> Total: 1432 packages (9 upgrades, 2 downgrades, 14 new, 1407
> >> reinstalls, 1 interactive), Size of downloads: 76,235 kB
> >>
> >> How is that possible? Where do those upgrades, downgrades and new
> >> packages come from? What is missing from my traditional "-uDvN"
> >> command that is causing me to miss some of those updates?
> >
> > Before anyone responds I will throw in my theory :)
> > 
> > I'm using ~amd64 and I suppose perhaps the ebuilds have changed
> > since I installed them, but have not had a version increase.
> 
> It's 4 years I'm using Gentoo and I can still be surprised by it. :)
> This doesn't look right. Why do devs upgrade ebuilds and do not
> increase the -rX versioning?

The policy is that they should increment the revision if the ebuild has
changed enough that users of the package would want to recompile.
There are some example cases mentioned in the policy, but largely it's
a judgment call on the part of the maintainer.

<http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=3&chap=1#doc_chap3_sect2>.

-- 
»Q«
     Kleeneness is next to Gödelness.