[gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Mick]

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Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my memory!)

What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off line?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Samstag 15 November 2008, Mick wrote:
> Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my
> memory!)
>
> What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off line?

tar

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 15 November 2008 21:45:04 Mick wrote:
> Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my
> memory!)
>
> What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off line?

rsync

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Jerry McBride]

On Saturday 15 November 2008 02:45:04 pm Mick wrote:
> Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my
> memory!)
>
> What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off line?

What's wrong with gentoo-wiki.info?

As for backup.... yes tar is good, but how about rsync?

-- 

*****************************************************************************
                                       
                             From the desk of:
                             Jerome D. McBride
                                       
   15:28:45 up 20 days,  4:03,  2 users,  load average: 1.18, 1.05, 1.03
 
*****************************************************************************

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
> Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my memory!)
>
> What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off line?
>   

I keep mine simple, cp -auv paths/you/want/to/backup back/up/to  It has
works so far.  Thought about doing a cron job but that complicates
things.  :/

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Mick]

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On Saturday 15 November 2008, Dale wrote:
> Mick wrote:
> > Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my
> > memory!)
> >
> > What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off
> > line?
>
> I keep mine simple, cp -auv paths/you/want/to/backup back/up/to  It has
> works so far.  Thought about doing a cron job but that complicates
> things.  :/

Thank you all for the suggestions and for the link to the wiki!  I've got some 
reading to do.  ;-)

Whenever I have used tar to back up a whole OS I used it with a LiveCD.  This 
was to make sure that files and their metadata were not being changed while I 
was tar'ing them.

Are you saying that I can actually fire up tar/rsync and back up in real time?

I was gravitating towards using LVM snapshot and then tar'ing that to an 
external USB drive.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
> On Saturday 15 November 2008, Dale wrote:
>   
>> Mick wrote:
>>     
>>> Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my
>>> memory!)
>>>
>>> What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off
>>> line?
>>>       
>> I keep mine simple, cp -auv paths/you/want/to/backup back/up/to  It has
>> works so far.  Thought about doing a cron job but that complicates
>> things.  :/
>>     
>
> Thank you all for the suggestions and for the link to the wiki!  I've got some 
> reading to do.  ;-)
>
> Whenever I have used tar to back up a whole OS I used it with a LiveCD.  This 
> was to make sure that files and their metadata were not being changed while I 
> was tar'ing them.
>
> Are you saying that I can actually fire up tar/rsync and back up in real time?
>
> I was gravitating towards using LVM snapshot and then tar'ing that to an 
> external USB drive.
>   

I have read that you can use tar while the system is running.  I
wouldn't do that during say a emerge or something tho.  I would try to
keep the system somewhat idle as far as changing files.

My cp command works fine on a running system with the same advice as
above on the system being idle tho.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Jerry McBride]

On Saturday 15 November 2008 07:08:42 pm Mick wrote:
> On Saturday 15 November 2008, Dale wrote:
> > Mick wrote:
> > > Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my
> > > memory!)
> > >
> > > What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off
> > > line?
> >
> > I keep mine simple, cp -auv paths/you/want/to/backup back/up/to  It has
> > works so far.  Thought about doing a cron job but that complicates
> > things.  :/
>
> Thank you all for the suggestions and for the link to the wiki!  I've got
> some reading to do.  ;-)
>
> Whenever I have used tar to back up a whole OS I used it with a LiveCD. 
> This was to make sure that files and their metadata were not being changed
> while I was tar'ing them.
>
> Are you saying that I can actually fire up tar/rsync and back up in real
> time?
>
> I was gravitating towards using LVM snapshot and then tar'ing that to an
> external USB drive.


If you need to guarantee a backup without the data being changed during the 
process... you gotta take the server down. The easiest way is to init 1 to 
single user mode , make your backup, then init x back to what ever runlevel 
you were in...

-- 

*****************************************************************************
                                       
                             From the desk of:
                             Jerome D. McBride
                                       
        21:54:45 up  5:40,  4 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00
 
*****************************************************************************

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[jaeyoung lee]

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rsync is nice way

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 3:45 AM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:

> Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my
> memory!)
>
> What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off line?
> --
> Regards,
> Mick
>



-- 
Only freebsd openbsd gentoo-linux windows2008

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Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[William Kenworthy]

dirvish is in portage.

tar/rsync/cp are not really backups but manual copies.  If you want true
backup you need scripts to handle the extra functionality for things
like versioning, archive management and the all important restore.

Dirvish is excellent on all but restore.

BillK

On Sat, 2008-11-15 at 19:45 +0000, Mick wrote:
> Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my memory!)
> 
> What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off line?
-- 
William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au>
Home in Perth!

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Sonntag 16 November 2008, William Kenworthy wrote:
> dirvish is in portage.
>
> tar/rsync/cp are not really backups but manual copies.  If you want true
> backup you need scripts to handle the extra functionality for things
> like versioning, archive management and the all important restore.

archives are managed by my tapelib, thank you very much. Restore is as easy as 
backup with tar.

And if you start depending on something complex, you will be screwed at some 
point. Every system and every livecd has tar. amanda? mondo? devilish? not.

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 16 November 2008 02:08:42 Mick wrote:
> On Saturday 15 November 2008, Dale wrote:
> > Mick wrote:
> > > Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my
> > > memory!)
> > >
> > > What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off
> > > line?
> >
> > I keep mine simple, cp -auv paths/you/want/to/backup back/up/to  It has
> > works so far.  Thought about doing a cron job but that complicates
> > things.  :/
>
> Thank you all for the suggestions and for the link to the wiki!  I've got
> some reading to do.  ;-)
>
> Whenever I have used tar to back up a whole OS I used it with a LiveCD. 
> This was to make sure that files and their metadata were not being changed
> while I was tar'ing them.
>
> Are you saying that I can actually fire up tar/rsync and back up in real
> time?

Yes. Unix does some RealSmartThings(tm) when using files. The name is just a 
pointer to the actual file, represented by an inode. Once you have an inode 
open, it stays open until everything using it closes it. So you can 
add/delete/copy/move files by name with impunity as you then just move names 
around. Contrast this with other inferior systems, like say Windows for 
example, which has a built-in self-destruct button when you try this...

> I was gravitating towards using LVM snapshot and then tar'ing that to an
> external USB drive.

This is the preferred way, as you get a consistent snapshot frozen at a point 
in time. This deals nicely with inconsistencies caused by files changing 
while you are backing up other ones.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 16 November 2008 11:04:41 William Kenworthy wrote:
> dirvish is in portage.
>
> tar/rsync/cp are not really backups but manual copies.  If you want true
> backup you need scripts to handle the extra functionality for things
> like versioning, archive management and the all important restore.
>
> Dirvish is excellent on all but restore.

Which raises the question:

What's the point of it then?

OTOH, it has to be better than legato. Nothing could be worse than legato.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[William Kenworthy]

It actually does a very fast, space efficient backup management.

As for restore, each backup is effectively an uncompressed fully
accessible mirror image so you can manually copy/tar/... etc back for
the full system, or individual files.  The developers basically say we
have a working backup system where you can restore using standard tools
if needed, but we'll make it easier when we can get around to it.

Having versioned backups can be REALLY handy at times.  Space efficiency
typically stabilises at 2x archive size depending on delta.

Downside it can hammer a disk - reiserfs is fine but ext2/3 was flaky.

moriah ~ # esearch dirvish
[ Results for search key : dirvish ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]

*  app-backup/dirvish
      Latest version available: 1.2.1
      Latest version installed: 1.2.1
      Size of downloaded files: [no/bad digest]
      Homepage:    http://www.dirvish.org/
      Description: Dirvish is a fast, disk based, rotating network
backup system.
      License:     OSL-2.0

Its worth a read on how its done - using smarts rather than brute force!

BillK

On Sun, 2008-11-16 at 11:58 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Sunday 16 November 2008 11:04:41 William Kenworthy wrote:
> > dirvish is in portage.
> >
> > tar/rsync/cp are not really backups but manual copies.  If you want true
> > backup you need scripts to handle the extra functionality for things
> > like versioning, archive management and the all important restore.
> >
> > Dirvish is excellent on all but restore.
> 
> Which raises the question:
> 
> What's the point of it then?
> 
> OTOH, it has to be better than legato. Nothing could be worse than legato.
> 
> 
-- 
William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au>
Home in Perth!

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Dirk Heinrichs]

Am Samstag, 15. November 2008 20:45:04 schrieb Mick:

> Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my
> memory!)
>
> What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off line?

I guess I would use rsnapshot to backup to another disk/machine if I had only 
a small number of machines to backup.

If the server is rather critical, or there more than a handfull of machines to 
backup, I would think about a full featured backup suite like bacula.

Both can eventually combined with using LVM snapshots.

Bye...

	Dirk

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 16 November 2008 12:31:16 William Kenworthy wrote:
> *  app-backup/dirvish
>       Latest version available: 1.2.1
>       Latest version installed: 1.2.1
>       Size of downloaded files: [no/bad digest]
>       Homepage:    http://www.dirvish.org/
>       Description: Dirvish is a fast, disk based, rotating network
> backup system.
>       License:     OSL-2.0
>
> Its worth a read on how its done - using smarts rather than brute force!

So the basic premise is that backups are done frequently and need to be 
efficient, whereas restores are only done in the event of a mistake. Less 
efficient restores is then a fair trade?

I see people get this wrong all the time at work. They assume that backups are 
some sort of rapid shared storage system. Which of course it isn't.
-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Mick]

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On Sunday 16 November 2008, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Sunday 16 November 2008 02:08:42 Mick wrote:
> > On Saturday 15 November 2008, Dale wrote:
> > > Mick wrote:
> > > > Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my
> > > > memory!)
> > > >
> > > > What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off
> > > > line?
> > >
> > > I keep mine simple, cp -auv paths/you/want/to/backup back/up/to  It has
> > > works so far.  Thought about doing a cron job but that complicates
> > > things.  :/
> >
> > Thank you all for the suggestions and for the link to the wiki!  I've got
> > some reading to do.  ;-)
> >
> > Whenever I have used tar to back up a whole OS I used it with a LiveCD.
> > This was to make sure that files and their metadata were not being
> > changed while I was tar'ing them.
> >
> > Are you saying that I can actually fire up tar/rsync and back up in real
> > time?
>
> Yes. Unix does some RealSmartThings(tm) when using files. The name is just
> a pointer to the actual file, represented by an inode. Once you have an
> inode open, it stays open until everything using it closes it. So you can
> add/delete/copy/move files by name with impunity as you then just move
> names around. Contrast this with other inferior systems, like say Windows
> for example, which has a built-in self-destruct button when you try this...

Sure, but isn't there a problem with atime mtime metadata when you carry out a 
backup in real time and then restore from it?

> > I was gravitating towards using LVM snapshot and then tar'ing that to an
> > external USB drive.
>
> This is the preferred way, as you get a consistent snapshot frozen at a
> point in time. This deals nicely with inconsistencies caused by files
> changing while you are backing up other ones.

Right, that's what I was thinking too.  What does restoring from a backed up 
snapshot involve?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[William Kenworthy]

On Sun, 2008-11-16 at 12:39 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Sunday 16 November 2008 12:31:16 William Kenworthy wrote:
> > *  app-backup/dirvish
> >       Latest version available: 1.2.1
> >       Latest version installed: 1.2.1
> >       Size of downloaded files: [no/bad digest]
> >       Homepage:    http://www.dirvish.org/
> >       Description: Dirvish is a fast, disk based, rotating network
> > backup system.
> >       License:     OSL-2.0
> >
> > Its worth a read on how its done - using smarts rather than brute force!
> 
> So the basic premise is that backups are done frequently and need to be 
> efficient, whereas restores are only done in the event of a mistake. Less 
> efficient restores is then a fair trade?
> 
> I see people get this wrong all the time at work. They assume that backups are 
> some sort of rapid shared storage system. Which of course it isn't.

I wouldnt call it fair trade, rather "its working now and we'll make it
better it eventually."

I agree, backups should be just that - protection from mistakes/lost
data.  However this is from someone who has the archives mounted via nfs
and can browse via filemanager an retrieve files that way via a desktop.
Currently I have my freeruner mobile phone, mythtv critical files and a
number of systems such as laptops backed up this way and its been very
reliable and useful, both as automatic/unattended and manually run.

Its neat in that you only need rsync and ssh (though its possible to use
rsh and the like) on the client.  You only need dirvish on the server.

Starting to sound like a salesman for it! - but I have been very happy
with it. I used to use custom rsync scripts, different backup managers
and even tivoli backup at work.  Dirvish is best for my usage.

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 16 November 2008 13:51:23 Mick wrote:
> > Yes. Unix does some RealSmartThings(tm) when using files. The name is
> > just a pointer to the actual file, represented by an inode. Once you have
> > an inode open, it stays open until everything using it closes it. So you
> > can add/delete/copy/move files by name with impunity as you then just
> > move names around. Contrast this with other inferior systems, like say
> > Windows for example, which has a built-in self-destruct button when you
> > try this...
>
> Sure, but isn't there a problem with atime mtime metadata when you carry
> out a backup in real time and then restore from it?

With a restore, you have really just two options:

- consider the file being restored to be a new file and set the *time to now
- consider it a full restore and set them the same as what's in the backup

root or the file's owner is permitted to do the latter

There's a third option which makes little sense: set the *time of the restored 
file to be the same as whatever file it is repalcing on disk. But this is 
mostly silly as the file data is now inconsistent with the recorded times

> > > I was gravitating towards using LVM snapshot and then tar'ing that to
> > > an external USB drive.
> >
> > This is the preferred way, as you get a consistent snapshot frozen at a
> > point in time. This deals nicely with inconsistencies caused by files
> > changing while you are backing up other ones.
>
> Right, that's what I was thinking too.  What does restoring from a backed
> up snapshot involve?

The backup is just a backup, the fact that it was made from a frozen disk 
snapshot is irrelevant. So you would restore it in the usual manner for the 
backup format/method in use

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 16 November 2008 14:36:22 William Kenworthy wrote:
> I wouldnt call it fair trade, rather "its working now and we'll make it
> better it eventually."
>
> I agree, backups should be just that - protection from mistakes/lost
> data.  However this is from someone who has the archives mounted via nfs
> and can browse via filemanager an retrieve files that way via a desktop.
> Currently I have my freeruner mobile phone, mythtv critical files and a
> number of systems such as laptops backed up this way and its been very
> reliable and useful, both as automatic/unattended and manually run.

OK I see where you are coming from.

When you say backup/restore to me, I think in terms of what I'm used to - 
massive tape archives holding many multi-TB of data for thousands of hosts. 
What you are describing is indeed a backup, but in my world I'd probably call 
it something else.

Perhaps I should have been more explicit and said "Disaster Recovery Archival 
Backup" instead of "backup"... :-)

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Jorge Peixoto de Morais Neto]

On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:08 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday 15 November 2008, Dale wrote:
>> Mick wrote:
>> > Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my
>> > memory!)
>> >
>> > What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off
>> > line?
>>
>> I keep mine simple, cp -auv paths/you/want/to/backup back/up/to  It has
>> works so far.  Thought about doing a cron job but that complicates
>> things.  :/
>
> Thank you all for the suggestions and for the link to the wiki!  I've got some
> reading to do.  ;-)
>
> Whenever I have used tar to back up a whole OS I used it with a LiveCD.  This
> was to make sure that files and their metadata were not being changed while I
> was tar'ing them.
>
> Are you saying that I can actually fire up tar/rsync and back up in real time?
>

Please read tar's texinfo manual, at least the section
5  Performing Backups and Restoring Files
It is short, and nicely divided in subsections making it is easy to
select you need/want to read. Not like a man page, which for me is
useful as a reference but horrible at teaching how to use the program
(unless the program is quite simple).

-- 
Software is like sex: it is better when it is free - Linus Torvalds

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Joerg Schilling]

William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au> wrote:

> dirvish is in portage.
>
> tar/rsync/cp are not really backups but manual copies.  If you want true
> backup you need scripts to handle the extra functionality for things
> like versioning, archive management and the all important restore.

star has everything you need for backups and it is based on the standard 
archive format.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
       schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de     (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Mark Somerville]

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On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 07:45:04PM +0000, Mick wrote:
> Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my memory!)
> 
> What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off line?

I like rdiff-backup, which gives incremental backups over rsync.

Mark

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[gentoo-user] Re: Back up a server in real-time

[Harry Putnam]

Mark Somerville <mark@scottishclimbs.com> writes:

> On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 07:45:04PM +0000, Mick wrote:
>> Without gentoo-wiki my knowledge level is rather poor (just like my memory!)
>> 
>> What would you use to back up a running server without taking it off line?
>
> I like rdiff-backup, which gives incremental backups over rsync.

I just started playing with rdiff-backup.  If you are familiar with
rsnapshot maybe you'll know if rdiff-backup is better in some way.

I've been using rsnapshot for quite a while but haven't had to do a
serious restore (knock on wood).

The small scale restores I've needed seemed to be something of a pita.

I guess you have to search the rsnapshot created hardlinks for the
version you want manually.  At least that is what I ended up doing.

There may be better ways but rsnapshot doesn't supply any help in that
regard far as I know.  Other than the biggest part of having created
the file you need that is.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Back up a server in real-time

[Dirk Heinrichs]

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Am Mittwoch 19 November 2008 18:15:01 schrieb ext Harry Putnam:

> I guess you have to search the rsnapshot created hardlinks for the
> version you want manually.  At least that is what I ended up doing.

Yes, that's true. But although it may be a pain to search through it, it's 
already a good step forward to even have that capability. AFAIK no traditional 
backup system has content search capabilities. One can usually only tell it to 
restore a set of files as of a specific date. You have to restore first, then 
check the content and iterate that until you finally found the version you 
want.

Now, with those rsync based backup tools, you get a plain copy of your data 
somewhere, so you can reverse that process. You can search through it using 
find/grep/awk/whatever (or even use one of those desktop search engines to 
index the whole backup like you would do for your home directory) and then 
restore exactly the version you want.

Bye...

	Dirk
-- 
Dirk Heinrichs          | Tel:  +49 (0)162 234 3408
Configuration Manager   | Fax:  +49 (0)211 47068 111
Capgemini Deutschland   | Mail: dirk.heinrichs@capgemini.com
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Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Mick]

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On Monday 17 November 2008, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > dirvish is in portage.
> >
> > tar/rsync/cp are not really backups but manual copies.  If you want true
> > backup you need scripts to handle the extra functionality for things
> > like versioning, archive management and the all important restore.
>
> star has everything you need for backups and it is based on the standard
> archive format.

Thanks Joerg, I have just had a quick look at star.  Would you know if there 
is a LiveCD that has star - or will I be able to restore a fs from an archive 
created with star, but using tar to do it as it comes in e.g. Knoppix?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Back up a server in real-time

[Joerg Schilling]

Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday 17 November 2008, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > > dirvish is in portage.
> > >
> > > tar/rsync/cp are not really backups but manual copies.  If you want true
> > > backup you need scripts to handle the extra functionality for things
> > > like versioning, archive management and the all important restore.
> >
> > star has everything you need for backups and it is based on the standard
> > archive format.
>
> Thanks Joerg, I have just had a quick look at star.  Would you know if there 
> is a LiveCD that has star - or will I be able to restore a fs from an archive 
> created with star, but using tar to do it as it comes in e.g. Knoppix?

Did you check grml?

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
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