[gentoo-user] KDE-4.1.3 + KDE-3.5.9 = messed up KDEDIRS ?

[gentoo-user] KDE-4.1.3 + KDE-3.5.9 = messed up KDEDIRS ?

[Dmitry S. Makovey]

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Hi everybody,

I've just updated to 4.1.3 (slotted alongside with 3.5.9) and all of sudden 
konqueror and akregator (didn't test much more, but I'm sure something else 
was broke too) stopped launching hinting that there is a CSS version 
mistmatch blah-blah-blah. Path to CSS suggested that 4.1.3 was using CSS from 
3.5.9 which was bizzare since it was working before. 

so I checked my KDEDIRS environment variable and found out that kde-3.5 was 
listed there (no traces of kde-4.1) and to work around it I just applied 
little script that rewrites KDEDIRS to something more usefull (?) placing it 
under ~/.kde-4.1/env/kde4-kdedirs.sh:

#!/bin/sh
export KDEDIRS=/usr:/usr/local

and this fixed it. Now my question is: is it something about my setup or it's 
happening to others too? Is there a "more proper" way to fix it?

-- 
Dmitry Makovey
Web Systems Administrator
Athabasca University
(780) 675-6245

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Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1.3 + KDE-3.5.9 = messed up KDEDIRS ?

[Peter Alfredsen]

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On Wednesday 12 November 2008, Dmitry S. Makovey wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> I've just updated to 4.1.3 (slotted alongside with 3.5.9) and all of
> sudden konqueror and akregator (didn't test much more, but I'm sure
> something else was broke too) stopped launching hinting that there is
> a CSS version mistmatch blah-blah-blah. Path to CSS suggested that
> 4.1.3 was using CSS from 3.5.9 which was bizzare since it was working
> before.

You need to go fully ~arch on KDE for them to co-exist in a nicer way.



-- 
/PA

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Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1.3 + KDE-3.5.9 = messed up KDEDIRS ?

[Dmitry S. Makovey]

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On November 12, 2008, Peter Alfredsen wrote:
> On Wednesday 12 November 2008, Dmitry S. Makovey wrote:
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > I've just updated to 4.1.3 (slotted alongside with 3.5.9) and all of
> > sudden konqueror and akregator (didn't test much more, but I'm sure
> > something else was broke too) stopped launching hinting that there is
> > a CSS version mistmatch blah-blah-blah. Path to CSS suggested that
> > 4.1.3 was using CSS from 3.5.9 which was bizzare since it was working
> > before.
>
> You need to go fully ~arch on KDE for them to co-exist in a nicer way.

looking at BGO I somehow don't feel too encouraged to go fully ~arch ;)

http://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=3.5.10

most of bugs listed above suggest that things break when moving in 3.5.10 
direction. I'm not really prepeared to part with 1 stable platform in favor 
of using 2 unstable ones ;)

I'll have to live with workarounds for a while I think, since I really depend 
on 3.5.x (i.e. fully functional KDE) and 4.1.3 is more of sneak-peek and an 
attempt to adjust/get used to the "new way" ahead of time :)

Another silly question that bothers me now: KDE3 menu displayes "double" 
entires for most KDE applications whereas KDE4 doesn't. Did anybody try to 
solve this one (even as a workaround)? This behavior was there ever since I 
first tried KDE-4.0.x.

-- 
Dmitry Makovey
Web Systems Administrator
Athabasca University
(780) 675-6245

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Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1.3 + KDE-3.5.9 = messed up KDEDIRS ?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 12 November 2008 18:31:41 Dmitry S. Makovey wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> I've just updated to 4.1.3 (slotted alongside with 3.5.9) and all of sudden
> konqueror and akregator (didn't test much more, but I'm sure something else
> was broke too) stopped launching hinting that there is a CSS version
> mistmatch blah-blah-blah. Path to CSS suggested that 4.1.3 was using CSS
> from 3.5.9 which was bizzare since it was working before.
>
> so I checked my KDEDIRS environment variable and found out that kde-3.5 was
> listed there (no traces of kde-4.1) and to work around it I just applied
> little script that rewrites KDEDIRS to something more usefull (?) placing
> it under ~/.kde-4.1/env/kde4-kdedirs.sh:
>
> #!/bin/sh
> export KDEDIRS=/usr:/usr/local
>
> and this fixed it. Now my question is: is it something about my setup or
> it's happening to others too? Is there a "more proper" way to fix it?

I had something similar on my first try:

kde-4 went into /usr
kde-3 went into /usr/kde/3.5

And bizarre weird errors kept happening. I remerged all of kde-4 with 
USE="kdeprefix" to put it back into /usr/kde/4.1 and all the weirdness went 
away

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1.3 + KDE-3.5.9 = messed up KDEDIRS ?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch 12 November 2008, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Wednesday 12 November 2008 18:31:41 Dmitry S. Makovey wrote:
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > I've just updated to 4.1.3 (slotted alongside with 3.5.9) and all of
> > sudden konqueror and akregator (didn't test much more, but I'm sure
> > something else was broke too) stopped launching hinting that there is a
> > CSS version mistmatch blah-blah-blah. Path to CSS suggested that 4.1.3
> > was using CSS from 3.5.9 which was bizzare since it was working before.
> >
> > so I checked my KDEDIRS environment variable and found out that kde-3.5
> > was listed there (no traces of kde-4.1) and to work around it I just
> > applied little script that rewrites KDEDIRS to something more usefull (?)
> > placing it under ~/.kde-4.1/env/kde4-kdedirs.sh:
> >
> > #!/bin/sh
> > export KDEDIRS=/usr:/usr/local
> >
> > and this fixed it. Now my question is: is it something about my setup or
> > it's happening to others too? Is there a "more proper" way to fix it?
>
> I had something similar on my first try:
>
> kde-4 went into /usr
> kde-3 went into /usr/kde/3.5
>
> And bizarre weird errors kept happening. I remerged all of kde-4 with
> USE="kdeprefix" to put it back into /usr/kde/4.1 and all the weirdness went
> away

in my opinion installing kde straight into /usr and changing the default 
behaviour is the most stupid thing gentoo devs have done in the last couple of 
years.

Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1.3 + KDE-3.5.9 = messed up KDEDIRS ?

[Dmitry S. Makovey]

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On November 12, 2008, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Wednesday 12 November 2008 18:31:41 Dmitry S. Makovey wrote:
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > I've just updated to 4.1.3 (slotted alongside with 3.5.9) and all of
> > sudden konqueror and akregator (didn't test much more, but I'm sure
> > something else was broke too) stopped launching hinting that there is a
> > CSS version mistmatch blah-blah-blah. Path to CSS suggested that 4.1.3
> > was using CSS from 3.5.9 which was bizzare since it was working before.
> >
> > so I checked my KDEDIRS environment variable and found out that kde-3.5
> > was listed there (no traces of kde-4.1) and to work around it I just
> > applied little script that rewrites KDEDIRS to something more usefull (?)
> > placing it under ~/.kde-4.1/env/kde4-kdedirs.sh:
> >
> > #!/bin/sh
> > export KDEDIRS=/usr:/usr/local
> >
> > and this fixed it. Now my question is: is it something about my setup or
> > it's happening to others too? Is there a "more proper" way to fix it?
>
> I had something similar on my first try:
>
> kde-4 went into /usr
> kde-3 went into /usr/kde/3.5
>
> And bizarre weird errors kept happening. I remerged all of kde-4 with
> USE="kdeprefix" to put it back into /usr/kde/4.1 and all the weirdness went
> away

I've dealt with this in the past too.

I'm pretty sure I have enabled "kdeprefix" before 4.1.3 merge. I know it's 
there now and emerge -uDNp world doesn't show anything to be rebuilt due to 
useflag change. :(

-- 
Dmitry Makovey
Web Systems Administrator
Athabasca University
(780) 675-6245

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Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1.3 + KDE-3.5.9 = messed up KDEDIRS ?

[Dmitry S. Makovey]

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On November 12, 2008, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > I had something similar on my first try:
> >
> > kde-4 went into /usr
> > kde-3 went into /usr/kde/3.5
> >
> > And bizarre weird errors kept happening. I remerged all of kde-4 with
> > USE="kdeprefix" to put it back into /usr/kde/4.1 and all the weirdness
> > went away
>
> in my opinion installing kde straight into /usr and changing the default
> behaviour is the most stupid thing gentoo devs have done in the last couple
> of years.

wouldn't call it stupid though. FHS compliance is a good thing (I'm a sysadmin 
so I really appreciate when things can be easily located universaly). I think 
what failed is communication on that change. In developers defense I'd say 
that we're dealing with ~arch packages here so we've been warned they'll be 
somewhat not-so-stable. What I think needs to happen is gentoo users have to 
be warned in big red letters everywhere possible when upgrading from KDE3 to 
KDE4 to make firm decision whether to use "kdeprefix" or not.

Enforcing proper FS layout is a good thing IMO. Just needs clear communication 
before marked as stable :)

-- 
Dmitry Makovey
Web Systems Administrator
Athabasca University
(780) 675-6245

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Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1.3 + KDE-3.5.9 = messed up KDEDIRS ?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 12 November 2008 22:31:52 Dmitry S. Makovey wrote:
> On November 12, 2008, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > > I had something similar on my first try:
> > >
> > > kde-4 went into /usr
> > > kde-3 went into /usr/kde/3.5
> > >
> > > And bizarre weird errors kept happening. I remerged all of kde-4 with
> > > USE="kdeprefix" to put it back into /usr/kde/4.1 and all the weirdness
> > > went away
> >
> > in my opinion installing kde straight into /usr and changing the default
> > behaviour is the most stupid thing gentoo devs have done in the last
> > couple of years.
>
> wouldn't call it stupid though. FHS compliance is a good thing (I'm a
> sysadmin so I really appreciate when things can be easily located
> universaly). I think what failed is communication on that change. In
> developers defense I'd say that we're dealing with ~arch packages here so
> we've been warned they'll be somewhat not-so-stable. What I think needs to
> happen is gentoo users have to be warned in big red letters everywhere
> possible when upgrading from KDE3 to KDE4 to make firm decision whether to
> use "kdeprefix" or not.
>
> Enforcing proper FS layout is a good thing IMO. Just needs clear
> communication before marked as stable :)

Essentially what we have with this (the five miles out view) is that portage 
considers there is a SLOT and the rest of the system does not. So as far as 
every other utility on the box is concerned (including KDE-3), the kde-3 SLOT 
simply does not exist, regardless of how nicely portage take care to put 
stuff in it's own little SLOT. You cannot possibly take /usr out of the 
various *PATH dirs, and whereas a funky env script might make kde-3 work, it 
certainly will not work in any other environment.

You either have every version of a SLOT package in a SLOT or you do not. So, I 
like the idea of a non-SLOTted kde-4, but the devs really need to make the 
rules clear. It all boils down to these two:

If you have kde-3 on the same system, you SHALL set USE="kdeprefix"
If you do not have kde-3 on the system you SHALL NOT set USE="kdeprefix"

To hell with choice in this regard. These are the rules that make stuff work. 
There is no choice.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1.3 + KDE-3.5.9 = messed up KDEDIRS ?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch 12 November 2008, Dmitry S. Makovey wrote:
> On November 12, 2008, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > > I had something similar on my first try:
> > >
> > > kde-4 went into /usr
> > > kde-3 went into /usr/kde/3.5
> > >
> > > And bizarre weird errors kept happening. I remerged all of kde-4 with
> > > USE="kdeprefix" to put it back into /usr/kde/4.1 and all the weirdness
> > > went away
> >
> > in my opinion installing kde straight into /usr and changing the default
> > behaviour is the most stupid thing gentoo devs have done in the last
> > couple of years.
>
> wouldn't call it stupid though. FHS compliance is a good thing (I'm a
> sysadmin so I really appreciate when things can be easily located
> universaly). 

why? the FHS is a stupid standard. Why is following stupid standards a good 
thing? What next? LSB compliance - because it is great to be broken by 
definition?

> I think what failed is communication on that change. In
> developers defense I'd say that we're dealing with ~arch packages here so
> we've been warned they'll be somewhat not-so-stable. What I think needs to
> happen is gentoo users have to be warned in big red letters everywhere
> possible when upgrading from KDE3 to KDE4 to make firm decision whether to
> use "kdeprefix" or not.
>
it would have been better to NOT introduce that kdeprefix flag and instead 
introducing a FHS flag - which should have been off by default. The current 
way - kdeprefix to get sane behaviour, that turned off, changing the default 
behaviour is either stupid or evil.

> Enforcing proper FS layout is a good thing IMO. Just needs clear
> communication before marked as stable :)

Like making kde update interactive? Require a 'yes, I know about kdeprefix' 
dialog box?
kde has always been in its own directory tree. /opt back in the suse days for 
example. Elderly kde documentation told people to install kde in its own sub 
tree - and I loved that. I always hated gnome for cluttering /usr with its 
garbage. Having a big project like kde in its own tree has a bazillion of 
advantages. 

Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1.3 + KDE-3.5.9 = messed up KDEDIRS ?

[Alan McKinnon]

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On Wednesday 12 November 2008 23:11:35 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> why? the FHS is a stupid standard. Why is following stupid standards a good
> thing? What next? LSB compliance - because it is great to be broken by
> definition?

Why is FHS stupid? I haven't read it fully since 2006 but at the time it was completely sensible to me. Stuff ends up in predictable sensible places that you can rely on.

The one thing it did not mention explicitly was funky things like gentoo SLOTs or /usr/kde/

But, FHS itself already tells you how to do it conceptually: just follow the lead of /usr/local/ and do the exact same thing somwhere else.

The most impressive part was laying out exactly what kind of things you should expect to find in

/usr
/usr/local
/opt
~/bin

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

                                                 

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Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1.3 + KDE-3.5.9 = messed up KDEDIRS ?

[Dmitry S. Makovey]

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On November 12, 2008, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > wouldn't call it stupid though. FHS compliance is a good thing (I'm a
> > sysadmin so I really appreciate when things can be easily located
> > universaly).
>
> why? the FHS is a stupid standard. Why is following stupid standards a good
> thing? What next? LSB compliance - because it is great to be broken by
> definition?

any consistency on a system is a good thing. when you deal with N systems you 
really appreciate when things are easily located and could be deducted easily 
even if you don't know where they are. Any standard could easily be 
called "stupid" but in absense of better alternatives I'd rather 
have "stupid" standard than none. 

> > I think what failed is communication on that change. In
> > developers defense I'd say that we're dealing with ~arch packages here so
> > we've been warned they'll be somewhat not-so-stable. What I think needs
> > to happen is gentoo users have to be warned in big red letters everywhere
> > possible when upgrading from KDE3 to KDE4 to make firm decision whether
> > to use "kdeprefix" or not.
>
> it would have been better to NOT introduce that kdeprefix flag and instead
> introducing a FHS flag - which should have been off by default. The current
> way - kdeprefix to get sane behaviour, that turned off, changing the
> default behaviour is either stupid or evil.

see, that depends on your perspective and long term goal. Like Alan mentioned 
in his post: if long-term strategy is to have gentoo more FHS-friendly (for 
whatever reasons) then default compliance is a good thing, if long-term 
solution is to keep doing things in non-FHS-way (a.k.a. gentoo-way ;) ) then 
your suggestion is a more viable one. So the real question you want to 
ask: "Is gentoo as a whole intends to be FHS compliant in the future? What 
are the reasons for that? Can I opt-out?". For myself I think I know answers 
for the last two, but for you, I guess you'd have to find out yourself. What 
would be interesting to know for the entire group is the answer to the first 
question: "Is gentoo as a whole intends to be FHS compliant in the future?". 
Does anybody know the answer?

> > Enforcing proper FS layout is a good thing IMO. Just needs clear
> > communication before marked as stable :)
>
> Like making kde update interactive? Require a 'yes, I know about kdeprefix'
> dialog box?

no. there are simplier alternatives. Read Alan's post, and as an alternative 
here's my take: you can fail building any kde build if state of "kdeprefix" 
is undefined in /etc/make.conf. So you'd have to have that either explicitely 
enable or disable there. Not sure if that'd be easy to implement with current 
portage EAPI (not flaming - just don't know ;) )

> kde has always been in its own directory tree. /opt back in the suse days
> for example. Elderly kde documentation told people to install kde in its
> own sub tree - and I loved that. I always hated gnome for cluttering /usr
> with its garbage. Having a big project like kde in its own tree has a
> bazillion of advantages.

I can list quite a few disadvantages as well. So it boils down to the matter 
of personal preference and the direction that gentoo dev team chose for the 
future. 

-- 
Dmitry Makovey
Web Systems Administrator
Athabasca University
(780) 675-6245

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