[gentoo-user] KDE-4.1 apps render slowly

[gentoo-user] KDE-4.1 apps render slowly

[Alan McKinnon]

Hi all,

This post might be a bit vague, sorry about that, I'm not sure where to start 
or how to explain it.

New laptop with nVidia GeForce 8600. Arch ~amd64, emerged kde-meta-4.1, but it 
renders exceptionally slowly on the screen when scrolling. The effect is as if 
something is keeping the system very busy while input actions occur:

It can take 30 secs to scroll slashdot's front page from top to bottom.
Any web page displayed in akregator inside kontact is even slower.
When kwallet pops up asking for the master password, it misses keystrokes when 
typing at normal speed.
Scrolling through a long mail in kmail is slightly slower than normal, but 
scrolling the same mail in a reply window is full speed.
Konqueror in split-window mode takes a few seconds to react when navigating 
through directories.

Firefox works normally. I use e17 as the window manager, so I'm seeing this 
just using KDE apps, not the whole DE. top, krells and other regular tools 
show the system running normally, no apparent spikes or busyness.

Can anyone point me in the direction of a nice howto or the correct tools to 
figure out what's going on here?

emerge --info:
Portage 2.2_rc6 (default/linux/amd64/2008.0/desktop, gcc-4.3.1, 
glibc-2.8_p20080602-r0, 2.6.25-gentoo-r7 x86_64)                                                                                                        
=================================================================                                           
System uname: Linux-2.6.25-gentoo-r7-x86_64-Intel-R-_Core-
TM-2_Duo_CPU_T9300_@_2.50GHz-with-glibc2.2.5      
Timestamp of tree: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:33:01 +0000                                                          
app-shells/bash:     3.2_p39                                                                                
dev-java/java-config: 1.3.7, 2.1.6-r1                                                                       
dev-lang/python:     2.5.2-r7
sys-apps/baselayout: 2.0.0
sys-apps/openrc:     0.2.5
sys-apps/sandbox:    1.2.18.1-r3
sys-devel/autoconf:  2.13, 2.62-r1
sys-devel/automake:  1.5, 1.7.9-r1, 1.8.5-r3, 1.9.6-r2, 1.10.1-r1
sys-devel/binutils:  2.18-r3
sys-devel/gcc-config: 1.4.0-r4
sys-devel/libtool:   2.2.4
virtual/os-headers:  2.6.25-r4
ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="amd64 ~amd64"
CBUILD="x86_64-pc-linux-gnu"
CFLAGS="-march=native -O2 -pipe"
CHOST="x86_64-pc-linux-gnu"
CONFIG_PROTECT="/etc /usr/kde/4.1/env /usr/kde/4.1/share/config 
/usr/kde/4.1/shutdown /usr/share/config"
CONFIG_PROTECT_MASK="/etc/ca-certificates.conf /etc/env.d /etc/env.d/java/ 
/etc/eselect/postgresql /etc/fonts/fonts.conf /etc/gconf /etc/gentoo-release 
/etc/php/apache2-php5/ext-active/ /etc/php/cgi-php5/ext-active//etc/php/cli-
php5/ext-active/ /etc/revdep-rebuild /etc/terminfo /etc/udev/rules.d"
CXXFLAGS="-march=native -O2 -pipe"
DISTDIR="/var/distfiles"
FEATURES="distlocks metadata-transfer parallel-fetch preserve-libs sandbox 
sfperms strict unmerge-orphans userfetch userpriv usersandbox"
GENTOO_MIRRORS="/mnt/distfiles/ ftp://ftp.is.co.za/mirror/gentoo.org/ 
http://distfiles.gentoo.org 
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/gentoo"
LDFLAGS="-Wl,-O1"
LINGUAS="en_US"
MAKEOPTS="-j3"
PKGDIR="/var/packages"
PORTAGE_RSYNC_OPTS="--recursive --links --safe-links --perms --times --
compress --force --whole-file --delete --stats --timeout=180 --
exclude=/distfiles --exclude=/local --exclude=/packages"
PORTAGE_TMPDIR="/var/tmp"
PORTDIR="/var/portage"
PORTDIR_OVERLAY="/var/portage/local/layman/enlightenment 
/var/portage/local/layman/ecomp /var/portage/local/layman/sunrise 
/var/portage/local/layman/mozilla /var/portage/local/layman/desktop-effects 
/var/portage/local/layman/kdesvn-portage /var/portage/local/alan"
SYNC="rsync://rsync.gentoo.org/gentoo-portage"
USE="X a52 aac aalib acl acpi adns aiglx alsa amd64 ao apache2 audiofile bash-
completion berkdb bluetooth branding bzip2 cairo cdaudio cdr cli cracklib 
crypt cups curl curlwrappers cvs dbus dbx dga dri dts dv dvb dvd dvdr dvdread 
encode etk evo ewl exif expat fam ffmpeg firefox flac foomaticdb freetds ftp 
gd gdbm gif gimpglitz gnutls gpm gtk hal iconv id3tag imagemagick imap imlib 
ipod irda irmc jabber javascript jbig jce jpegjpeg2k kde keyring lcms ldap 
lesstif libc_glibc libcaca libg++ libnotify libsamplerate libsndfile libwww 
lm_sensors mad maildir matroska mbox mcal midi mikmod milter mime mmx mng mp3 
mp3tunes mp4 mpeg mplayer mtp mudflap multilib mysql mysqli ncurses netboot 
nfs nptl nsplugin ntp odbc offensive ogg openal opengl openmp pam pango pcre 
pdf perl php plotutils pmu png posix postgres ppds pppd profile python qt-
static qt3support qt4quicktime readline realmedia reflection samba sasl 
scanner sdl session slp sms spell spl sqlite sqlite3 ssesse2 ssl ssse3 
startup-notification subversion svg sysfs sysvipc tcl tcltk tcpd tetex theora 
threads tidy tiff tk truetype udev unicode usb utempter vcd vim-syntax vorbis 
wavpack wifi wmf wxwindows x264 xattr xcomposite xine xinetd xml xorg xosd xpm 
xulrunner xv xvid xvmc zeroconf zlib" ALSA_CARDS="ali5451 als4000 atiixp 
atiixp-modem bt87x ca0106 cmipci emu10k1x ens1370 ens1371 es1938 es1968 fm801 
hda-intel intel8x0 intel8x0m maestro3 trident usb-audio via82xx via82xx-modem 
ymfpci" ALSA_PCM_PLUGINS="adpcm alaw asym copy dmix dshare dsnoop empty 
extplug file hooks iec958 ioplug ladspa lfloat linear meter mmap_emul mulaw 
multi null plug rateroute share shm softvol" APACHE2_MODULES="actions alias 
auth_basic auth_digest authn_anon authn_dbd authn_dbm authn_default authn_file 
authz_dbm authz_default authz_groupfile authz_host authz_owner authz_user 
autoindex cache dav dav_fs dav_lock dbd deflate dir disk_cache env expires 
ext_filter file_cache filter headers ident imagemap include info log_config 
logio mem_cache mime mime_magic negotiation proxy proxy_ajp proxy_balancer 
proxy_connect proxy_http rewrite setenvif so speling status unique_id userdir 
usertrack vhost_alias " ELIBC="glibc" INPUT_DEVICES="keyboard mouse evdev" 
KERNEL="linux" LCD_DEVICES="bayrad cfontz cfontz633 glk hd44780 lb216 lcdm001 
mtxorb ncurses text" LINGUAS="en_US" USERLAND="GNU" VIDEO_CARDS="nv nvidia 
vesa vga"
Unset:  CPPFLAGS, CTARGET, EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS, INSTALL_MASK, LANG, LC_ALL, 
PORTAGE_COMPRESS, PORTAGE_COMPRESS_FLAGS, PORTAGE_RSYNC_EXTRA_OPTS


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1 apps render slowly

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Samstag, 9. August 2008, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> This post might be a bit vague, sorry about that, I'm not sure where to
> start or how to explain it.
>
> New laptop with nVidia GeForce 8600. Arch ~amd64, emerged kde-meta-4.1, but
> it renders exceptionally slowly on the screen when scrolling.

*lol* sorry but - yeah, this is a known problem with the nvidia 8XXX and 9XXX 
series. Their drivers is broken.
KDE has a big article about it in their techbase. Also:
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=115916 
(nVidia 8000/9000 Series Performance Issues)

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=117043
(Please stop that bashing...)

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=109990
(KDE4 almost unuseable)


> The effect is
> as if something is keeping the system very busy while input actions occur:
>
> It can take 30 secs to scroll slashdot's front page from top to bottom.

yepp

> Any web page displayed in akregator inside kontact is even slower.

yepp

> When kwallet pops up asking for the master password, it misses keystrokes
> when typing at normal speed.

oh yes.

> Scrolling through a long mail in kmail is slightly slower than normal, but
> scrolling the same mail in a reply window is full speed.

mhm

> Konqueror in split-window mode takes a few seconds to react when navigating
> through directories.

yepp. 

>
> Can anyone point me in the direction of a nice howto or the correct tools
> to figure out what's going on here?
>

and typing something into a forum has several seconds of lag, desktop menu 
takes seconds to appear and more seconds to react to input, ....

see the links above. In short, you are screwed. There is no real remedy until 
Nvidia fixes their broken drivers. Some stuff might help a bit - but most of 
the time one thing gets slightly better and another one a lot worse. The only 
good news: there is nothing wrong with your system.

[gentoo-user] Re: KDE-4.1 apps render slowly

[Nikos Chantziaras]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> New laptop with nVidia GeForce 8600. Arch ~amd64, emerged kde-meta-4.1, but it 
> renders exceptionally slowly on the screen when scrolling. The effect is as if 
> something is keeping the system very busy while input actions occur

Volker already mentioned the driver problem.  If you wonder *why* the 
drivers are broken:

GeForce 8xxx and 9xxx series almost completely lack 2D acceleration 
hardware.  The 3D engine of the hardware must be used to render 2D stuff 
(including video).  NVidia has not really implemented this for their 
Linux drivers yet.  Right now, GeForce 5, 6 and 7 series is much faster 
with 2D on linux than GeForce 8 and 9.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: KDE-4.1 apps render slowly

[Filipe Sousa]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 725 bytes --]

Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
> Volker already mentioned the driver problem.  If you wonder *why* the 
> drivers are broken:
> 
> GeForce 8xxx and 9xxx series almost completely lack 2D acceleration 
> hardware.  The 3D engine of the hardware must be used to render 2D stuff 
> (including video).  NVidia has not really implemented this for their 
> Linux drivers yet.  Right now, GeForce 5, 6 and 7 series is much faster 
> with 2D on linux than GeForce 8 and 9.

I have one 8800gt and 7300 and the 7300 it's not faster than 8800. Using 
xrender is slow and the opengl render is not better. The ATI on my 
laptop isn't any better.

Both kde 4 and qt 4 are terribly slow with graphics.


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 260 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: KDE-4.1 apps render slowly

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Samstag, 9. August 2008, Filipe Sousa wrote:
> Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> > Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >
> > Volker already mentioned the driver problem.  If you wonder *why* the
> > drivers are broken:
> >
> > GeForce 8xxx and 9xxx series almost completely lack 2D acceleration
> > hardware.  The 3D engine of the hardware must be used to render 2D stuff
> > (including video).  NVidia has not really implemented this for their
> > Linux drivers yet.  Right now, GeForce 5, 6 and 7 series is much faster
> > with 2D on linux than GeForce 8 and 9.
>
> I have one 8800gt and 7300 and the 7300 it's not faster than 8800. Using
> xrender is slow and the opengl render is not better. The ATI on my
> laptop isn't any better.
>
> Both kde 4 and qt 4 are terribly slow with graphics.

from the threads I posted it should be clear that kde4/qt4 are not the only 
ones affected. gtk is slow too. So is firefox. On Intel integrated graphics, 
qt4/kde4 is fast and fluid. That should give someone food for thought.

I bought an Ati because I was fed up - and while it is not perfect, it is so 
much better that I am glad that I did the jump. Using xshm instead of xv for 
video is a small price, for not having to wait several seconds until the 
desktop reacts on a right mouse click or have krunner work as soon as it is 
open.

Also the 7300 is a bad example - it is a very slow card. And the big 8 and 9 
cards hide some of the slowness because they are so powerfull that it makes up 
for some of the shitty drivers.

The worst part - Nvidia knows about this for ages - and nothing happend.

Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1 apps render slowly

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 09 August 2008 10:54:15 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Samstag, 9. August 2008, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > This post might be a bit vague, sorry about that, I'm not sure where to
> > start or how to explain it.
> >
> > New laptop with nVidia GeForce 8600. Arch ~amd64, emerged kde-meta-4.1,
> > but it renders exceptionally slowly on the screen when scrolling.
>
> *lol* sorry but - yeah, this is a known problem with the nvidia 8XXX and
> 9XXX series. Their drivers is broken.

So in other words, the short version:

up creek, no paddle

<sigh>

[snip]

> see the links above. In short, you are screwed. There is no real remedy
> until Nvidia fixes their broken drivers. Some stuff might help a bit - but
> most of the time one thing gets slightly better and another one a lot
> worse. The only good news: there is nothing wrong with your system.

Well that's good to know at least. The bummer is that I speced this laptop 
based on what I knew about nvidia's stuff. Nothing wrong in that, I was just 
18 months out of date!

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

[gentoo-user] Re: KDE-4.1 apps render slowly

[Nikos Chantziaras]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Also the 7300 is a bad example - it is a very slow card.

Not really.  It's at least 5 times as powerful as my old Matrox Mystique 
from the year 1995 (I think).  But the Matrox is faster with 2D.

It's not the hardware that is slow.  Quire the contrary.  It's the 
drivers that are totally borked.  All I can say is stop buying NVidia 
and ATI junk.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: KDE-4.1 apps render slowly

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 09 August 2008 20:40:20 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > Also the 7300 is a bad example - it is a very slow card.
>
> Not really.  It's at least 5 times as powerful as my old Matrox Mystique
> from the year 1995 (I think).  But the Matrox is faster with 2D.
>
> It's not the hardware that is slow.  Quire the contrary.  It's the
> drivers that are totally borked.  All I can say is stop buying NVidia
> and ATI junk.

I wanted to do that. Until I looked at my options:

Onboard Intel
1280X800

My last Dell D830 at my last job had that. It drove me psychotic. So I had a 
tough choice:

Be mostly free
Be mostly insane

No-brainer really...

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1 apps render slowly

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Samstag, 9. August 2008, Alan McKinnon wrote:

>
> > see the links above. In short, you are screwed. There is no real remedy
> > until Nvidia fixes their broken drivers. Some stuff might help a bit -
> > but most of the time one thing gets slightly better and another one a lot
> > worse. The only good news: there is nothing wrong with your system.
>
> Well that's good to know at least. The bummer is that I speced this laptop
> based on what I knew about nvidia's stuff. Nothing wrong in that, I was
> just 18 months out of date!

so you don't know about the 'nvidia mobile gpus dying like flies' problem?


http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/07/31/hp-pays-half-nvidia-
problems

just read the links in the text and below. Maybe you can still get a different 
one...?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: KDE-4.1 apps render slowly

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Samstag, 9. August 2008, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > Also the 7300 is a bad example - it is a very slow card.
>
> Not really.  It's at least 5 times as powerful as my old Matrox Mystique
> from the year 1995 (I think).  But the Matrox is faster with 2D.
>
> It's not the hardware that is slow.  Quire the contrary.  It's the
> drivers that are totally borked.  All I can say is stop buying NVidia
> and ATI junk.

and what do you propose to buy? Which vendor is selling graphic cards with 
good 3d performance apart from the two?

With ati you can choose between three drivers - and all of them are improving 
a lot.

Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1 apps render slowly

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 09 August 2008 21:03:37 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Samstag, 9. August 2008, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > see the links above. In short, you are screwed. There is no real remedy
> > > until Nvidia fixes their broken drivers. Some stuff might help a bit -
> > > but most of the time one thing gets slightly better and another one a
> > > lot worse. The only good news: there is nothing wrong with your system.
> >
> > Well that's good to know at least. The bummer is that I speced this
> > laptop based on what I knew about nvidia's stuff. Nothing wrong in that,
> > I was just 18 months out of date!
>
> so you don't know about the 'nvidia mobile gpus dying like flies' problem?

You nasty horrible terrible man you. Did you have to remind me of that? :-)

Notebook was delivered 10 days ago on a Friday. That night I read the post 
about it on slashdot. I'm so pissed about this card that I'm tending to ignore 
it and hope the problems will go away (which they won't...)

> http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/07/31/hp-pays-half-nvidia-
> problems
>
> just read the links in the text and below. Maybe you can still get a
> different one...?

It's a mobo :-(   That means a motherboard replacement and I don't know what 
Dell SA's position is on this. I'll have to check with the company account 
manager, but I think my only recourse is going to be a "Keep the customer 
happy!" internal POV. That and the fact that we buy truckloads of their 
servers, and a standard 40% discount across the board on all Dell products. 
Wish me luck


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: KDE-4.1 apps render slowly

[Filipe Sousa]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 834 bytes --]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Samstag, 9. August 2008, Filipe Sousa wrote:
> 
> from the threads I posted it should be clear that kde4/qt4 are not the only 
> ones affected. gtk is slow too. So is firefox. On Intel integrated graphics, 
> qt4/kde4 is fast and fluid. That should give someone food for thought.
> 
> I bought an Ati because I was fed up - and while it is not perfect, it is so 

The ati (9700) that I have on my laptop is freezing most of the time.

> much better that I am glad that I did the jump. Using xshm instead of xv for 

I have ubuntu on my laptop and I must say that gnome and compiz are 
pretty smooth. I can't say the same for kde 4.1.

> Also the 7300 is a bad example - it is a very slow card. And the big 8 and 9 

The 7300 (gt with 250M) should enough for today desktops.





[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 260 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] KDE-4.1 apps render slowly

[Dirk Uys]

On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 9:14 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You nasty horrible terrible man you. Did you have to remind me of that? :-)
>
> Notebook was delivered 10 days ago on a Friday. That night I read the post
> about it on slashdot. I'm so pissed about this card that I'm tending to ignore
> it and hope the problems will go away (which they won't...)
>
>
> It's a mobo :-(   That means a motherboard replacement and I don't know what
> Dell SA's position is on this. I'll have to check with the company account
> manager, but I think my only recourse is going to be a "Keep the customer
> happy!" internal POV. That and the fact that we buy truckloads of their
> servers, and a standard 40% discount across the board on all Dell products.
> Wish me luck
>
>
> --
> alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
>
>

You always have the option to keep using KDE 3.5.x until your driver
problems are resolved. KDE4.1 is nice, but not a must have to get work
done in most cases.

Good luck in any case!

Dirk