[gentoo-user] back up gentoo system

[gentoo-user] back up gentoo system

[David]

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 Hi,

   I was thinking on making regular backup of my gentoo partition. I'm not
 interested in incremental backups, just a mirror image of the root
 filesystem. I've prepared some scripts using dd for the first copy and
 rsync to keep it updated. How do you make your backups?
 Any improvements?.

 Thanks in advance

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Re: [gentoo-user] back up gentoo system

[Andrew MacKenzie]

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+++ David [gentoo-user] [Tue, May 06, 2008 at 11:44:46PM +0200]:
> 
>  Hi,
> 
>    I was thinking on making regular backup of my gentoo partition. I'm not
>  interested in incremental backups, just a mirror image of the root
>  filesystem. I've prepared some scripts using dd for the first copy and
>  rsync to keep it updated. How do you make your backups?
>  Any improvements?.
I've used bacula in the past to do backups.  It's very full featured but
also rather complicated for simple backups.

These days I use an rsync-based backup script I wrote called 'yarbs' (yet
another rsync backup system).

It uses rsync and hard links to keep X days of backups.  Easy to use, easy
to recover from, easy to setup.  I can make it available if anyone's
interested.

If you're using 'dd' does that mean you're copying the entire filesystem
and not just the files?  I believe that can run you into some issues if the
FS isn't read-only...

-- 
// Andrew MacKenzie  |  http://www.edespot.com
// GPG public key: http://www.edespot.com/~amackenz/public.key
// Some programming languages manage to absorb change, but withstand
// progress.
//     - Alan Perlis

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Re: [gentoo-user] back up gentoo system

[Mark Knecht]

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:44 PM, David <dcorraly@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>  Hi,
>
>   I was thinking on making regular backup of my gentoo partition. I'm not
>  interested in incremental backups, just a mirror image of the root
>  filesystem. I've prepared some scripts using dd for the first copy and
>  rsync to keep it updated. How do you make your backups?
>  Any improvements?.
>
>  Thanks in advance
>

See my recent (over the weekend) thread entitled "tar a brand new
Gentoo install to a USB drive for safe keeping?"

about using tar to save a brand new system.

In that thread one person pointed me toward this page:

http://blinkeye.ch/mediawiki/index.php/GNU/Linux_System_Backup_Script_(stage4)

which I tried out. It seemed to work OK for me. I had to edit jsut a
coupl eof lines to work with my setup
but other than that I got a number of backups created. Not too difficult.

- Mark
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Re: [gentoo-user] back up gentoo system

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Dienstag, 6. Mai 2008, David wrote:
>  Hi,
>
>    I was thinking on making regular backup of my gentoo partition. I'm not
>  interested in incremental backups, just a mirror image of the root
>  filesystem. I've prepared some scripts using dd for the first copy and
>  rsync to keep it updated. How do you make your backups?
>  Any improvements?.
>
>  Thanks in advance


tar -c -b 128 / --exclude=/proc --exclude=/dev --exclude=/sys | mbuffer -m 
800M -p 95 -s 65536 -D 32G -A "mtx -f /dev/sg2 next" -f -o /dev/st0
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Re: [gentoo-user] back up gentoo system

[David]

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On Tuesday 06 May 2008 23:54:08 Andrew MacKenzie wrote:
> +++ David [gentoo-user] [Tue, May 06, 2008 at 11:44:46PM +0200]:
> >  Hi,
> >
> >    I was thinking on making regular backup of my gentoo partition. I'm
> > not interested in incremental backups, just a mirror image of the root
> > filesystem. I've prepared some scripts using dd for the first copy and
> > rsync to keep it updated. How do you make your backups?
> >  Any improvements?.
>
> I've used bacula in the past to do backups.  It's very full featured but
> also rather complicated for simple backups.
>
> These days I use an rsync-based backup script I wrote called 'yarbs' (yet
> another rsync backup system).
>
> It uses rsync and hard links to keep X days of backups.  Easy to use, easy
> to recover from, easy to setup.  I can make it available if anyone's
> interested.
>
> If you're using 'dd' does that mean you're copying the entire filesystem
> and not just the files?  I believe that can run you into some issues if the
> FS isn't read-only...

What kind of issues? The idea is to copy the whole filesystem to another disk 
and keep it sync. And in case of "crisis" use dd from the backup to the 
original disk. 

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Re: [gentoo-user] back up gentoo system

[Andrew MacKenzie]

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+++ David [gentoo-user] [Wed, May 07, 2008 at 12:18:58AM +0200]:
> On Tuesday 06 May 2008 23:54:08 Andrew MacKenzie wrote:
> > If you're using 'dd' does that mean you're copying the entire filesystem
> > and not just the files?  I believe that can run you into some issues if the
> > FS isn't read-only...
> What kind of issues? The idea is to copy the whole filesystem to another disk 
> and keep it sync. And in case of "crisis" use dd from the backup to the 
> original disk. 
There is the possibility that something changes on disk and you've already
copied the 'references' to it in the journal or index.  Thus making your
image inconsistent or corrupted.  You also have files cached in memory not
yet written to disk, etc.  It's also very inefficient copying all the empty
parts of your file system as well.

At the least you'll want to mount your file system read-only if you're
going to use dd to make a copy.  


-- 
// Andrew MacKenzie  |  http://www.edespot.com
// GPG public key: http://www.edespot.com/~amackenz/public.key
// You have acquired a scroll entitled 'irk gleknow mizk'(n).--More--
// 
// This is an IBM Manual scroll.--More--
// 
// You are permanently confused.
// -- Dave Decot       

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Re: [gentoo-user] back up gentoo system

[Andrew MacKenzie]

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+++ David [gentoo-user] [Wed, May 07, 2008 at 12:18:58AM +0200]:
> What kind of issues? The idea is to copy the whole filesystem to another disk 
> and keep it sync. And in case of "crisis" use dd from the backup to the 
> original disk. 
I should note I'm assuming you're backing up a mounted filesystem.  If not
then there's nothing wrong with dd.

-- 
// Andrew MacKenzie  |  http://www.edespot.com
// GPG public key: http://www.edespot.com/~amackenz/public.key
// Whoever has lived long enough to find out what life is, knows how deep a debt
// of gratitude we owe to Adam, the first great benefactor of our race.  He
// brought death into the world.
//                 -- Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar"

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Re: [gentoo-user] back up gentoo system

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch, 7. Mai 2008, David wrote:
> On Tuesday 06 May 2008 23:54:08 Andrew MacKenzie wrote:
> > +++ David [gentoo-user] [Tue, May 06, 2008 at 11:44:46PM +0200]:
> > >  Hi,
> > >
> > >    I was thinking on making regular backup of my gentoo partition. I'm
> > > not interested in incremental backups, just a mirror image of the root
> > > filesystem. I've prepared some scripts using dd for the first copy and
> > > rsync to keep it updated. How do you make your backups?
> > >  Any improvements?.
> >
> > I've used bacula in the past to do backups.  It's very full featured but
> > also rather complicated for simple backups.
> >
> > These days I use an rsync-based backup script I wrote called 'yarbs' (yet
> > another rsync backup system).
> >
> > It uses rsync and hard links to keep X days of backups.  Easy to use,
> > easy to recover from, easy to setup.  I can make it available if anyone's
> > interested.
> >
> > If you're using 'dd' does that mean you're copying the entire filesystem
> > and not just the files?  I believe that can run you into some issues if
> > the FS isn't read-only...
>
> What kind of issues? The idea is to copy the whole filesystem to another
> disk and keep it sync. And in case of "crisis" use dd from the backup to
> the original disk.

Andrew has a point. dd is not a good choice. FS don't like it if some parts of 
them are in a different state than others.

Also, with dd, everytime you restore, you also restore fragmentation - oh and 
a bigger partition? Can be tricky.

There is nothing wrong with tar. In fact tar is great for this job. dd not.
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[gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Michael Schmarck]

David <dcorraly@googlemail.com> wrote:

> 
>  Hi,
> 
>    I was thinking on making regular backup of my gentoo partition. I'm not
>  interested in incremental backups, just a mirror image of the root
>  filesystem. I've prepared some scripts using dd for the first copy and
>  rsync to keep it updated. How do you make your backups?

I wouldn't do DD images. Too inflexible.

I do backups using rsnapshot, which basically just makes a copy with
rsync of all the files on all the filesystems.

>  Any improvements?.

Dump dd.

Michael

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[gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Michael Schmarck]

David <dcorraly@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday 06 May 2008 23:54:08 Andrew MacKenzie wrote:

>> If you're using 'dd' does that mean you're copying the entire filesystem
>> and not just the files?  I believe that can run you into some issues if
>> the FS isn't read-only...
> 
> What kind of issues?

If the fs is mounted read/write, it can very easily happen, that the
filesystem isn't "consistent"; ie. you start to read from the source
and when you get to the end, stuff has changed.

If you really must use dd (why?), I would *VERY* much urge to use LVM
snapshots.

But in reality, I'd rather use rsync to keep the two discs in sync.

> The idea is to copy the whole filesystem to another 
> disk and keep it sync. And in case of "crisis" use dd from the backup to
> the original disk.

And why dd? What do you think you gain by using dd, compared to the
more traditional way of copying just all the files (be it with tar,
be it with rsync or even with plain cp)?

Michael

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[gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Michael Schmarck]

Volker Armin Hemmann <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:

> There is nothing wrong with tar. In fact tar is great for this job. dd
> not.

Depends. If you backup to tape, like you do, then the Tape Archiver 
commonly called "tar" is the tool to use.

But if a backup to disk is done, tar is still a good tool for the job,
but IMO not the best tool available. Instead I'd suggest to use rsync.
Reason: It's easier to restore just a single file.

It's of course possible to restore single files from tar-balls as well,
but it's more complicated. Especially, if you're using incrementals. I'm
not saying that's impossible, but just, that it's harder than with rsync.

Best regards,

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch, 7. Mai 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:
> > There is nothing wrong with tar. In fact tar is great for this job. dd
> > not.
>
> Depends. If you backup to tape, like you do, then the Tape Archiver
> commonly called "tar" is the tool to use.
>
> But if a backup to disk is done, tar is still a good tool for the job,
> but IMO not the best tool available. Instead I'd suggest to use rsync.
> Reason: It's easier to restore just a single file.
>
> It's of course possible to restore single files from tar-balls as well,
> but it's more complicated. Especially, if you're using incrementals. I'm
> not saying that's impossible, but just, that it's harder than with rsync.

it is a matter of taste - but anyway everything is better than dd ;)
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 07 May 2008 08:09:57 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> But if a backup to disk is done, tar is still a good tool for the job,
> but IMO not the best tool available. Instead I'd suggest to use rsync.
> Reason: It's easier to restore just a single file.

rsync is good, but has its own disadvantages, notably the lack of
compression and the reliance on the destination filesystem to preserve
permissions. Dar is a good compromise, being tar-like but intended for
disk use. Restoration of individual files, while not as simple as with
rsync, is far more straightforward than with tar.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

A man wrapped up in himself makes a very small package.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Dirk Heinrichs]

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Am Mittwoch, 7. Mai 2008 schrieb ext Neil Bothwick:

> rsync is good, but has its own disadvantages, notably the lack of
> compression and the reliance on the destination filesystem to preserve
> permissions.

Can you elaborate more on the latter, please? What exactly is rsync relying 
on and which fs wouldn't meet the requirements.

Reg. compression, I believe there's a stackable compressing (fuse) fs one 
could use.

Thanks...

	Dirk
-- 
Dirk Heinrichs          | Tel:  +49 (0)162 234 3408
Configuration Manager   | Fax:  +49 (0)211 47068 111
Capgemini Deutschland   | Mail: dirk.heinrichs@capgemini.com
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 7 May 2008 09:57:02 +0200, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:

> > rsync is good, but has its own disadvantages, notably the lack of
> > compression and the reliance on the destination filesystem to preserve
> > permissions.  
> 
> Can you elaborate more on the latter, please? What exactly is rsync
> relying on and which fs wouldn't meet the requirements.

FAT on an external drive, or some of the online backup systems.

> Reg. compression, I believe there's a stackable compressing (fuse) fs
> one could use.

What is that? I was looking for such a beast a while ago, but could only
find read-only filesystems with compression, like squashfs.

Don't get me wrong, I like rsync and use it a lot, but, like anything
else, it has its limitations.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

For Sale: Positronic Brain-Found near S.F.-Needs Work

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Dirk Heinrichs]

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Am Mittwoch, 7. Mai 2008 schrieb ext Neil Bothwick:
> On Wed, 7 May 2008 09:57:02 +0200, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> > > rsync is good, but has its own disadvantages, notably the lack of
> > > compression and the reliance on the destination filesystem to
> > > preserve permissions.
> >
> > Can you elaborate more on the latter, please? What exactly is rsync
> > relying on and which fs wouldn't meet the requirements.
>
> FAT on an external drive, or some of the online backup systems.

Yeah, FAT was the only one I could imagine, just wanted to be sure. So 
nothing to worry about ;-) It would never come to my mind to backup a 
_UNIX_ fs to a _DOS_, ahem, fs.

> > Reg. compression, I believe there's a stackable compressing (fuse) fs
> > one could use.
>
> What is that? I was looking for such a beast a while ago, but could only
> find read-only filesystems with compression, like squashfs.

http://fuse.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/CompressedFileSystems

> Don't get me wrong, I like rsync and use it a lot, but, like anything
> else, it has its limitations.

The first one can be solved with fuse, the second one is a not an issue (at 
least for me).

Bye...

	Dirk
-- 
Dirk Heinrichs          | Tel:  +49 (0)162 234 3408
Configuration Manager   | Fax:  +49 (0)211 47068 111
Capgemini Deutschland   | Mail: dirk.heinrichs@capgemini.com
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 7 May 2008 11:34:35 +0200, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:

> > What is that? I was looking for such a beast a while ago, but could
> > only find read-only filesystems with compression, like squashfs.  
> 
> http://fuse.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/CompressedFileSystems

A couple of those look interesting, thanks.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 39: Almost exactly

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch, 7. Mai 2008, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 7 May 2008 11:34:35 +0200, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> > > What is that? I was looking for such a beast a while ago, but could
> > > only find read-only filesystems with compression, like squashfs.
> >
> > http://fuse.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/CompressedFileSystems
>
> A couple of those look interesting, thanks.

or you can try reiser4 with either gzip or lzo.
Advantage: it does not try to compress incompressible files...
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 7 May 2008 13:30:40 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> or you can try reiser4 with either gzip or lzo.
> Advantage: it does not try to compress incompressible files...

Disadvantage: An experimental filesystem is not the best place to keep
important backups :(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch, 7. Mai 2008, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 7 May 2008 13:30:40 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > or you can try reiser4 with either gzip or lzo.
> > Advantage: it does not try to compress incompressible files...
>
> Disadvantage: An experimental filesystem is not the best place to keep
> important backups :(

and the fuse-stuff is not experimental?
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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Michael Schmarck]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 7 May 2008 09:57:02 +0200, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> 
>> > rsync is good, but has its own disadvantages, notably the lack of
>> > compression and the reliance on the destination filesystem to preserve
>> > permissions.
>> 
>> Can you elaborate more on the latter, please? What exactly is rsync
>> relying on and which fs wouldn't meet the requirements.
> 
> FAT on an external drive,

Why not put ext* or reiserfs or whatever on such a drive?

> or some of the online backup systems. 

That's really a problem, yes. But I was talking about backup-to-disk.
While it might be, that you can mount some of the online backup systems
as a fs, it mustn't be so.

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 7 May 2008 15:39:03 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> > Disadvantage: An experimental filesystem is not the best place to keep
> > important backups :(  
> 
> and the fuse-stuff is not experimental?

Yes it is, which is why I decided not to use it after reading the web
sites.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

No wanna work. Wanna bang on keyboard.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 07 May 2008 16:41:17 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> >> Can you elaborate more on the latter, please? What exactly is rsync
> >> relying on and which fs wouldn't meet the requirements.  
> > 
> > FAT on an external drive,  
> 
> Why not put ext* or reiserfs or whatever on such a drive?

Because you need to access it from Windows too? Installing the Windows
ext2/3 drivers isn't always an option.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate. *
Wright

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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Michael Schmarck]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 07 May 2008 16:41:17 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
>> >> Can you elaborate more on the latter, please? What exactly is rsync
>> >> relying on and which fs wouldn't meet the requirements.
>> > 
>> > FAT on an external drive,
>> 
>> Why not put ext* or reiserfs or whatever on such a drive?
> 
> Because you need to access it from Windows too?

To a backup device? Why?

Well. Strange use case, but i suppose that even such a case might exist
in reality.

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] back up gentoo system

[Steven Lembark]

>> If you're using 'dd' does that mean you're copying the entire filesystem
>> and not just the files?  I believe that can run you into some issues
if the
>> FS isn't read-only...
>
> What kind of issues? The idea is to copy the whole filesystem to
another disk
> and keep it sync. And in case of "crisis" use dd from the backup to the
> original disk.

dd does no error checking and is not usually
suitable for backups of any kind unless you
validate the output. find / -xdev | cpio -ov,
*dump, or mkisofs -R would all be better ways
to store recovery data than dd.


-- 
Steven Lembark                                            85-09 90th St.
Workhorse Computing                                 Woodhaven, NY, 11421
lembark@wrkhors.com                                      +1 888 359 3508
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 07 May 2008 17:16:01 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> >> Why not put ext* or reiserfs or whatever on such a drive?  
> > 
> > Because you need to access it from Windows too?  
> 
> To a backup device? Why?

Don't Windows users need to backup?


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 07 May 2008 17:16:01 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>
>  > >> Why not put ext* or reiserfs or whatever on such a drive?
>  > >
>  > > Because you need to access it from Windows too?
>  >
>  > To a backup device? Why?
>
>  Don't Windows users need to backup?
>
>
>  --
>  Neil Bothwick

Funny you should bring this up. Last week I was trying to get Gentoo
onto my laptop but it wasn't stable. Problems in the kernel that
aren't fixed earlier than 2.6.25 so I did a 'stage4' backup to save my
work. It now resides on a USB disk.

The machine itself had seemed somewhat unstable under Windows.
Possibly it was the memory I bought from Crucial a couple of months
ago. They've  so I've just today done a complete restore of Win Vista
from the HP Recovery Disk. (This is the firs full restore. In the
middle I tried to get XP on the machine but there aren't any XP
drivers for some of the hardware in the system, etc., so I gave up.)
Anyway, I now have a Win Vista Home Premium install, clean when it
finishes virus scan.

I'm thinking I might as well treat data like data and just back up the
windows partition just like I back up the Gentoo partitions, using
Stage4 to do that and creating something I can reinstall using Gentoo
quite easily.

The only risky portion might be the quality of a Linux-based NTFS
reinstall from the tar file but it seems I have little to lose by
doing this.

Any comments?

- Mark
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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Michael Schmarck]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 07 May 2008 17:16:01 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
>> >> Why not put ext* or reiserfs or whatever on such a drive?
>> > 
>> > Because you need to access it from Windows too?
>> 
>> To a backup device? Why?
> 
> Don't Windows users need to backup?

No. Not to a drive used for backups of Linux machines.

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 08 May 2008 09:55:50 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> >> To a backup device? Why?  
> > 
> > Don't Windows users need to backup?  
> 
> No. Not to a drive used for backups of Linux machines.

Why? You could equally be saying that Linux users don't need to backup to
a drive used for Windows machines. My partner has to use Windows for
work, are you saying we are not allowed to share a backup device?


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I am Ken Dodd of the Borg... What a fine day to be assimilated missus!!

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Re: [gentoo-user] back up gentoo system

[András Csányi]

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2008/5/6 David <dcorraly@googlemail.com>:
>
>   Hi,
>
>    I was thinking on making regular backup of my gentoo partition. I'm not
>   interested in incremental backups, just a mirror image of the root
>   filesystem. I've prepared some scripts using dd for the first copy and
>   rsync to keep it updated. How do you make your backups?
>   Any improvements?.
>
>   Thanks in advance

Hi,
I use rdiff-backup.
small, maybe fast, usable.
I suggest to you look this site:

http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Backup

András

-- 
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-- Csanyi Andras -- http://sayusi.hu -- Sayusi Ando
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag, 8. Mai 2008, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 08 May 2008 09:55:50 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> > >> To a backup device? Why?
> > >
> > > Don't Windows users need to backup?
> >
> > No. Not to a drive used for backups of Linux machines.
>
> Why? You could equally be saying that Linux users don't need to backup to
> a drive used for Windows machines. My partner has to use Windows for
> work, are you saying we are not allowed to share a backup device?

uuh. Are you sharing your toothbrush too?

;()
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 8 May 2008 13:21:28 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> uuh. Are you sharing your toothbrush too?

Only when the battery goes flat in mine and I can't be bothered looking
for more, and only then when she isn't looking :)

On the other hand, sharing storage space makes a lot of sense.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Pepperami. Its a bit of an animal.
What animal & what bit?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag, 8. Mai 2008, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 8 May 2008 13:21:28 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > uuh. Are you sharing your toothbrush too?
>
> Only when the battery goes flat in mine and I can't be bothered looking
> for more, and only then when she isn't looking :)
>
> On the other hand, sharing storage space makes a lot of sense.

until someone accidentally deletes an important backup from the other one ;)

btw, made backups yesterday.

tar -c -b 128 /home | mbuffer -m 400M -p 95 -s 65536 -D 
32G -A "mtx -f /dev/sg2 next" -f -o /dev/st0

my tapelib has a 35/70gb dlt built in. After 10(!) mb mtx signaled to switch 
tapes. 

After one hour of hunting (updating mbuffer, re-emerging mtx and playing 
around with different options) I made an ls -lhtr of /dev to see if all nodes 
are there. There weren't. And st0 had a size of 10M. WTF? mknod'ed the node - 
didn't help. On turning on the lib, udev made three nodes. sg2, the 10mb st0 
and tape/by-id/blabla. Reloading the modules created a lot more nodes - and 
solved the problems. 

Sometimes life is a lot easier with less automation.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 8 May 2008 16:00:49 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> > On the other hand, sharing storage space makes a lot of sense.  
> 
> until someone accidentally deletes an important backup from the other
> one ;)

You don't think I'd trust anyone else with the backups, do you? ;-)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Michael Schmarck]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, 08 May 2008 09:55:50 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
>> >> To a backup device? Why?
>> > 
>> > Don't Windows users need to backup?
>> 
>> No. Not to a drive used for backups of Linux machines.
> 
> Why?

Different OS.

> You could equally be saying that Linux users don't need to backup to 
> a drive used for Windows machines. 

Yes, I would say so.

But more interesting: Why should they even be able to backup to the
same drive (or better: to the same filesystem)?

> My partner has to use Windows for 
> work, are you saying we are not allowed to share a backup device?

It just doesn't make sense.

Michael

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[gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Michael Schmarck]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On the other hand, sharing storage space makes a lot of sense.

No, it does not· Not for such important and specialized things as 
backups.

For general usage: Yes, it makes a whole lot of sense. But we're 
not talking general usage here.

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Mark Knecht]

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 6:40 AM, Michael Schmarck
<michael.schmarck@habmalnefrage.de> wrote:
> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, sharing storage space makes a lot of sense.
>
> No, it does not· Not for such important and specialized things as
> backups.
>
> For general usage: Yes, it makes a whole lot of sense. But we're
> not talking general usage here.
>
> Michael

I don't understand why it doesn't make sense. (Full disclosure - I
keep backups for both Windows and Linux on the same pair of drives.)

In my case I have two external drives. I do my backups and when they
are complete I move the images for both Windows and Gentoo to the same
drive. The next week I swap and use the second drive doing the same
thing. If one drive fails I have the second backup drive. Both drives
have Windows and Gentoo backups. Why is it a problem?

- Mark
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 09 May 2008 15:38:51 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> >> No. Not to a drive used for backups of Linux machines.  
> > 
> > Why?  
> 
> Different OS.

So. We can use the same web pages, read the same email, why not share
hardware?

> > My partner has to use Windows for 
> > work, are you saying we are not allowed to share a backup device?  
> 
> It just doesn't make sense.

So if I have a Linux box, a Windows box and a Mac and want to backup to
an external drive, you say I must buy three drives when one will do?
Should I buy a fourth drive for my Palm Treo?

Do I need separate rsync.net accounts too?

A backup device is just a storage appliance, if should not be parochial
about the origin of the data it stores.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Grow your own dope, plant a politician!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Ian Hilt]

On Fri, 9 May 2008 at 10:51pm +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote:

> A backup device is just a storage appliance, if should not be parochial
> about the origin of the data it stores.

hmmm ... parochial


#include <wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn>

main()
{
 	printf("%s", parochial);
}

$ gcc parochial.c -o parochial
$ ./parochial
$ narrowly restricted in outlook or scope

Ah, got it.

-- 
Ian Hilt
ian.hilt (at) gmail.com
GnuPG key: 0x4AFC1EE3
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[gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Michael Schmarck]

· Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>:

> On Fri, 09 May 2008 15:38:51 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
>> >> No. Not to a drive used for backups of Linux machines.  
>> > 
>> > Why?  
>> 
>> Different OS.
> 
> So. We can use the same web pages, read the same email, why not share
> hardware?

Because it doesn't make sense, to share the same filesystem for 
backing up Windows and Linux?

Why should the same filesystem be used to hold backups for Windows
and Linux? What's the point in making things more dangerous than they
need to be?

>> > My partner has to use Windows for 
>> > work, are you saying we are not allowed to share a backup device?  
>> 
>> It just doesn't make sense.
> 
> So if I have a Linux box, a Windows box and a Mac and want to backup to
> an external drive, you say I must buy three drives when one will do?

I did not say that. I said: 

| But more interesting: Why should they even be able to backup to the
| same drive (or better: to the same filesystem)?

And that's more to the point: Why backup to the same filesystem?

It's a simple matter of keeping different things seperated. What's
the point in mixing up backups of Linux and Windows?

> Should I buy a fourth drive for my Palm Treo?

Yes, I also think that what you're saying is rather stupid.

> Do I need separate rsync.net accounts too?

At least I wouldn't store everything in the same directory. It would
of course be a good idea to seperate things. 

> A backup device is just a storage appliance, if should not be parochial
> about the origin of the data it stores.

But because there are different requirements (features of the 
filesystems), what you're saying is not correct.

And why do you make such a fuss about such a natural thing? There's
just no reason in sharing such a device/filesystem/"storage endpoint"
between different operating systems.

Michael Schmarck
-- 
        "What was the worst thing you've ever done?"
        "I won't tell you that, but I'll tell you the worst thing that
ever happened to me... the most dreadful thing."
                -- Peter Straub, "Ghost Story"


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Alan McKinnon]

On Friday 09 May 2008, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> A backup device is just a storage appliance, if should not be
> parochial about the origin of the data it stores.

Agreed. I have gentoo boxes out there that contain backups for 
themselves, other gentoo machines, tens of various Windows machines and 
even the odd Mac or two. Oh yeah, some Ubuntu servers too.

All backup clients write to different directories, based on their 
hostname/IP address. No collisions.

One thing I won't do is backup a Linux machine to a Windows machine as I 
can't easily extract file metadata that way. Windows to Linux is easy 
as Windows is virtually unusable unless the average user does the 
equivalent of this after a restore:

chmod -R 777 /path/to/restored/directory/

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 10 May 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> > A backup device is just a storage appliance, if should not be
> > parochial about the origin of the data it stores.
>
> But because there are different requirements (features of the
> filesystems), what you're saying is not correct.

No, what YOU should be saying is:

YOUR requirements for backups do not meet the same criteria as Neil's. 
So in YOUR case it is not correct but in Neil's it very well may be.

You are conflating your specific case with the general case.

> And why do you make such a fuss about such a natural thing? 

Because it is natural from his point of view?

Your point of view may differ, and you are free to work according to 
that (and should) but that doesn't mean that your case is universally 
applicable. Claiming that is illogical in the extreme.

> There's 
> just no reason in sharing such a device/filesystem/"storage endpoint"
> between different operating systems.

Yes, in your case that is true. But please at least acknowledge the 
following:

1. You never touch Neil's data
2. You do not maintain his systems
3. His mistakes and successes do not impact you in any significant way
4. Neil is free to do with his data whatever he likes
5. If you don't like how he does things, that's tough
6. If you are entitled to tell other people the one correct way to do 
action X, then they are just as entitled to tell you how to perform 
action Y the correct way. And to be consistent, you will have to follow 
their assessment whether you agree with it or not.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Stroller]

On 10 May 2008, at 07:07, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>>
>> So. We can use the same web pages, read the same email, why not share
>> hardware?
>
> Because it doesn't make sense, to share the same filesystem for
> backing up Windows and Linux?

You keep saying this like it's obvious, but don't provide any good  
reason for it.

There's no reason why I shouldn't have a singe external drive  
containing three directories: "My Mac", "Ann's Linux Box", "Bee's  
Windows PC".

I can only assume that you find it inelegant to store files on a  
filesystem which will not handle their metadata - ownership, group,  
permissions in the case of Linux, or the more sophisticated ACLs used  
by Windows XP Pro & 2003.

Just because YOU find it inelegant, doesn't mean that anyone else  
cares. A file is a file, and when recovering from backups most of us  
can drag & drop "My Photos" to the new filesystem and then take  
ownership of the files.

Stroller.
  
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Samstag, 10. Mai 2008, Stroller wrote:
> On 10 May 2008, at 07:07, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> >> So. We can use the same web pages, read the same email, why not share
> >> hardware?
> >
> > Because it doesn't make sense, to share the same filesystem for
> > backing up Windows and Linux?
>
> You keep saying this like it's obvious, but don't provide any good
> reason for it.
>
> There's no reason why I shouldn't have a singe external drive
> containing three directories: "My Mac", "Ann's Linux Box", "Bee's
> Windows PC".
>
> I can only assume that you find it inelegant to store files on a
> filesystem which will not handle their metadata - ownership, group,
> permissions in the case of Linux, or the more sophisticated ACLs used
> by Windows XP Pro & 2003.
>
> Just because YOU find it inelegant, doesn't mean that anyone else
> cares. A file is a file, and when recovering from backups most of us
> can drag & drop "My Photos" to the new filesystem and then take
> ownership of the files.
>
> Stroller.

if you tar 'em up you don't even need to worry about the file permission 
capabilities of the underlying fs. Just don't forget the -p switch on 
extraction ;)
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 10 May 2008 21:02:21 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> if you tar 'em up you don't even need to worry about the file
> permission capabilities of the underlying fs.

Isn't that exactly what I said three wrong turns and four red herrings
ago? ;-)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"Ubuntu" is an ancient African word, meaning "I can't configure
Slackware".

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 10 May 2008 08:07:25 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> At least I wouldn't store everything in the same directory. It would
> of course be a good idea to seperate things. 

<sigh> When did I ever mention using a single directory to mix up all
backups?

All I did was answer a question with an example of when different OSes
may need to share a backup medium and you decided to get all evangelical
about it. If you live and work in a heterogeneous environment, sometimes
you have to find heterogeneous solutions.


> > A backup device is just a storage appliance, if should not be
> > parochial about the origin of the data it stores.  
> 
> But because there are different requirements (features of the 
> filesystems), what you're saying is not correct.

Read back to what I first said. Because of the different requirements
and features of filesystems, what /i first said is absolutely correct,
that backup methods that rely on the underlying filesystem have their
limitations.

> And why do you make such a fuss about such a natural thing? There's
> just no reason in sharing such a device/filesystem/"storage endpoint"
> between different operating systems.

Where did I state that a storage endpoint should be shared? Different
archive formats in different directories do not constitute a shared
endpoint.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 12: Plastic glasses

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Samstag, 10. Mai 2008, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 10 May 2008 21:02:21 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > if you tar 'em up you don't even need to worry about the file
> > permission capabilities of the underlying fs.
>
> Isn't that exactly what I said three wrong turns and four red herrings
> ago? ;-)

maybe - the whole thread is way too long. It went past its shelf life two days 
ago ;)
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 11 May 2008 01:02:24 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> > Isn't that exactly what I said three wrong turns and four red herrings
> > ago? ;-)  
> 
> maybe - the whole thread is way too long. It went past its shelf life
> two days ago ;)

It's not long, it's infinite; having met itself and become a loop :(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Any given program will expand to fill available memory.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Michael Schmarck]

· Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>:

> On Sat, 10 May 2008 08:07:25 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
>> At least I wouldn't store everything in the same directory. It would
>> of course be a good idea to seperate things. 
> 
> <sigh> When did I ever mention using a single directory to mix up all
> backups?

Never. And when did I say something like that?

> All I did was answer a question with an example of when different OSes
> may need to share a backup medium 

Correct. However you said, that "you need to access it (Linux backup
directories) from Windows too". And that's the main point and the point
that hasn't been answered yet: Why do you think, that such a need 
exists?

On the contrary, I think that such a need absolutely does not exist
and should be very much avoided. Reasons:

- "DOS Filesystems" (fat, ntfs) don't allow to store all the metadata
you find on Linux.
- "Linux filesystems" (ext*, reiser, ...) don't allow to store all
the metadata you find on Windows.
- Sharing backup space means, that it get's used more often. This
makes the risk larger, that something bad happens.

And last, but not least: Why should backup directories be shared in
the first place?

>> And why do you make such a fuss about such a natural thing? There's
>> just no reason in sharing such a device/filesystem/"storage endpoint"
>> between different operating systems.
> 
> Where did I state that a storage endpoint should be shared?

<20080507160930.6e7b9b66@loonquawl.digimed.co.uk>, Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 
16:09:30 +0100

Michael Schmarck
-- 
One advantage of talking to yourself is that you know at least somebody's
listening.
                -- Franklin P. Jones


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Sandro Hannemann]

>  Correct. However you said, that "you need to access it (Linux backup
>  directories) from Windows too". And that's the main point and the point
>  that hasn't been answered yet: Why do you think, that such a need
>  exists?


Suppose, you've got a project on which you work on both Windows and
Linux machines (and maybe even a Mac...)
Such a project needs backups and it is very convenient and logic too,
to be able to restore (or access) it from Linux and Windows likewise.

Why should this be such a strange idea? I really fail to see why you
insist on this ideological exclusion principle.
Rather it would be good to think of options, what techniques would be
most reliable to perform such backups.

Cheers,
Sandro
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 12 May 2008 15:07:06 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> And last, but not least: Why should backup directories be shared in
> the first place?

They shouldn't, and I never stated that they should.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce.

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[gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Michael Schmarck]

· Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>:

> On Mon, 12 May 2008 15:07:06 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
>> And last, but not least: Why should backup directories be shared in
>> the first place?
> 
> They shouldn't, and I never stated that they should.

You stated that there might be such a need. In <20080507160930.6e7b9b66@loonquawl.digimed.co.uk>, 
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008  16:09:30 +0100 you wrote:

| Because you need to access it from Windows too?

That was a response to my question:

| Why not put ext* or reiserfs or whatever on such a drive?

I then asked, why you think that such a need might exist. That 
question hasn't been answered by you up to now.

Later on, I asked:

| But more interesting: Why should they even be able to backup to the
| same drive (or better: to the same filesystem)?

That question also hasn't been answered yet.

It seems you don't want to answer that question. Why's that?

Michael Schmarck
-- 
<hoponpop> my program works if i take out the bugs.


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[gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Michael Schmarck]

Hello Sandro.

· Sandro Hannemann <shannemann@gmail.com>:

>>  Correct. However you said, that "you need to access it (Linux backup
>>  directories) from Windows too". And that's the main point and the point
>>  that hasn't been answered yet: Why do you think, that such a need
>>  exists?
> 
> 
> Suppose, you've got a project on which you work on both Windows and
> Linux machines (and maybe even a Mac...)

Okay.

> Such a project needs backups and it is very convenient and logic too,
> to be able to restore (or access) it from Linux and Windows likewise.

Depends if that's "very logic too". Are we talking about backing up
something like a "My Pictures" folder, or are we talking about system
backups?

> Why should this be such a strange idea? 

Because you usually don't "mix-and-match" backups. A backup should
be a "storage" of how the system was at a certain point in time.

Michael Schmarck
-- 
<Knghtbrd> Trust us, we know what we're doing...  We may have no idea HOW
           we're doing it, but we know WHAT we're doing.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: back up gentoo system

[Stroller]

On 12 May 2008, at 14:07, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> ... Reasons:
>
> - "DOS Filesystems" (fat, ntfs) don't allow to store all the metadata
> you find on Linux.
> - "Linux filesystems" (ext*, reiser, ...) don't allow to store all
> the metadata you find on Windows.
> - Sharing backup space means, that it get's used more often. This
> makes the risk larger, that something bad happens.

Apparently you missed my email 2 days ago. I'll cc you, so you don't  
miss this one.

I said:

   You keep saying this like it's obvious, but don't provide any good
   reason for it.

   There's no reason why I shouldn't have a singe external drive
   containing three directories: "My Mac", "Ann's Linux Box", "Bee's
   Windows PC".

   I can only assume that you find it inelegant to store files on a
   filesystem which will not handle their metadata - ownership, group,
   permissions in the case of Linux, or the more sophisticated ACLs
   used by Windows XP Pro & 2003.

   Just because YOU find it inelegant, doesn't mean that anyone else
   cares. A file is a file, and when recovering from backups most of
   us can drag & drop "My Photos" to the new filesystem and then take
   ownership of the files.

I have tried not to get involved in this thread, but with today's  
posts you're really starting to make yourself look, um, eccentric. If  
I were you I'd shut up right now, before you do your reputation any  
more lasting damage.

There are LOTS of ways to do things, and your way is not inherently  
right. I'm not saying your way is wrong, but you seem to be quite  
unjustifiably slinging that allegation at other people.

Stroller.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: back up gentoo system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 12 May 2008 16:51:08 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> · Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>:

> >> And last, but not least: Why should backup directories be shared in
> >> the first place?
> > 
> > They shouldn't, and I never stated that they should.
> 
> You stated that there might be such a need. In
> <20080507160930.6e7b9b66@loonquawl.digimed.co.uk>, Date: Wed, 7 May
> 2008  16:09:30 +0100 you wrote:
> 
> | Because you need to access it from Windows too?

At no time did I suggest it was a god idea to share a directory for
backups of different systems. I simply pointed out that IF (note the use
of the word IF, which means it doesn't have to apply to you) you need to
use the same filesystem for storing backups from multiple machines, rsync
is not the best choice.

If you are able to use a separate device for each operating system, fine,
but don't assume that you can apply your circumstances to everyone else.
I have already given a real world case where this is not acceptable.

> I then asked, why you think that such a need might exist. That 
> question hasn't been answered by you up to now.

Yes it has, together with an example.


> | But more interesting: Why should they even be able to backup to the
> | same drive (or better: to the same filesystem)?
> 
> That question also hasn't been answered yet.

Same question, same answer.

This is getting tedious, especially for the other subscribers to the
list. Why don't we just accept that different people have different
environments, and restrictions imposed by those environments (which is
what I alluded to at the start) and let it drop, or at least take it to
private mail. If you are looking for a public recantation of my view that
one tool doesn't fit every circumstance, I am sorry I will have to
disappoint you.

> It seems you don't want to answer that question. Why's that?

I have answered it, although you seem to have missed the several
questions, from me and others, as to why one must not share a device
between computers.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

That's not a bug, it's a Free Enhanced Feature!

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