[gentoo-user] "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[gentoo-user] "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Michael Schmarck]

Hello.

Maybe someone can explain this:

$ sudo emerge -DuvatN world

These are the packages that would be merged, in reverse order:

Calculating world dependencies... done!

Total: 0 packages, Size of downloads: 0 kB

Nothing to merge; would you like to auto-clean packages? [Yes/No] 

$ emerge -vpt kde-i18n

These are the packages that would be merged, in reverse order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild     U ] kde-base/kde-i18n-3.5.9 [3.5.8] USE="-arts -debug kdeenablefinal xinerama" LINGUAS="-af -ar -az -bg -bn -br -bs -ca -cs -csb -cy -da de -el -en_GB -eo -es -et -eu -fa -fi -fr -fy -ga -gl -he -hi -hr -hu -is -it -ja -kk -km -ko -lt -lv -mk -mn -ms -nb -nds -nl -nn -pa -pl -pt -pt_BR -ro -ru -rw -se -sk -sl -sr -sr@Latn -ss -sv -ta -te -tg -th -tr -uk -uz -vi -wa -zh_CN -zh_TW" 20,860 kB 

Total: 1 package (1 upgrade), Size of downloads: 20,860 kB

In "prose": I have kde-i18n-3.5.8 installed. In tree, there's
an update available (kde-i18n-3.5.9). 

Why was that updatedable package not picked up, when I ran
emerge -DuvatN world? I also tried "emerge -Duvat world" - 
same effect.

How do I make emerge update all the installed packages, if
there's an update available?

Thanks,
Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Anthony Metcalf]

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Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Hello.
>
> <snip>
>
> How do I make emerge update all the installed packages, if
> there's an update available?
>
> Thanks,
> Michael
>
>   

Hi,

    First question, was it installed directly, or as a dependency for 
something else? If directly, does it appear in the world file? 
(/var/lib/portage/world) If it is a dependency, is the package that 
depends on it, shown in the world file?

    If the answer to the second question above is "no" then try adding 
it into the world file, then emerge -DuvatN world again.

Regards

Anthony



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Re: [gentoo-user] "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:51:29 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> In "prose": I have kde-i18n-3.5.8 installed. In tree, there's
> an update available (kde-i18n-3.5.9). 
> 
> Why was that updatedable package not picked up, when I ran
> emerge -DuvatN world? I also tried "emerge -Duvat world" - 
> same effect.

Is kde-i18n in your world file? If emerge --depclean -p suggests removing
it, it's not. Add it with emerge -n kde-i18n.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere.

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Re: [gentoo-user] "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> In "prose": I have kde-i18n-3.5.8 installed. In tree, there's
> an update available (kde-i18n-3.5.9).
>
> Why was that updatedable package not picked up, when I ran
> emerge -DuvatN world? I also tried "emerge -Duvat world" -
> same effect.

kde-i18n is not in your world and is not a direct dependency of anything 
in world, and nothing in your world specifically requires 
kde-i18n-3.5.9.

emerge -avuND world updates world and it's deep dependencies, not 
everything on the entire system regardless. You want to put kde-i18n in 
world (emerge -n) to get what you want.

That does give you a cluttered world file, but them's the breaks

The other option is to use the kde*meta ebuilds, which do directly 
depend on the sub-ordinate packages. This is what I do and I don't get 
the effect you observed.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

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[gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Michael Schmarck]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:51:29 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
>> In "prose": I have kde-i18n-3.5.8 installed. In tree, there's
>> an update available (kde-i18n-3.5.9).
>> 
>> Why was that updatedable package not picked up, when I ran
>> emerge -DuvatN world? I also tried "emerge -Duvat world" -
>> same effect.
> 
> Is kde-i18n in your world file?

No, it's not.

> If emerge --depclean -p suggests removing 
> it, it's not. Add it with emerge -n kde-i18n.

Hm - why should I want to add kde-i18n to the world file?
I ran "emerge -D" (--deep). From man emerge:

       --deep (-D)
              This  flag  forces emerge to consider the entire dependency tree
              of packages, instead of checking only the immediate dependencies
              of  the  packages.   As  an  example,  this  catches  updates in
              libraries that are not directly listed in the dependencies of  a
              package.   Also  see  --with-bdeps  for behavior with respect to
              build time dependencies that are not strictly required.

kde-i18n got installed as a dependency of some KDE package. Hmm...
I suppose I got it, because I used to have kde-meta installed. And
that package got "lost", somehow. And as it's no longer installed,
there's nothing installed on my system which has kde-i18n as a
dependency. And it's not in the world file.

As that's so, emerge "lost track" of this package, so to say.
Does that sound like a correct summary?

Connected question: How do I quickly find all the packages that
got installed as a dependency, but which are no longer needed,
because the dependent package got removed (as an example, I'd 
like to find kde-i18n, because that used to be a dependency of
kde-meta and kde-meta is no longer installed).

Thanks,

Michael

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[gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Michael Schmarck]

Anthony Metcalf <Anthony.Metcalf@anferny.ath.cx> wrote:

> Michael Schmarck wrote:
>> Hello.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> How do I make emerge update all the installed packages, if
>> there's an update available?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Michael
>>
>>   
> 
> Hi,
> 
>     First question, was it installed directly, or as a dependency for
> something else? 

I'm pretty sure, it was a dependency.

> (/var/lib/portage/world) If it is a dependency, is the package that
> depends on it, shown in the world file?

I think it was a dependency of kde-meta. kde-meta is no longer installed.

>     If the answer to the second question above is "no" then try adding
> it into the world file, then emerge -DuvatN world again.

Yes. Thanks a lot!

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Anthony Metcalf]

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Michael Schmarck wrote:
>
> Connected question: How do I quickly find all the packages that
> got installed as a dependency, but which are no longer needed,
> because the dependent package got removed (as an example, I'd 
> like to find kde-i18n, because that used to be a dependency of
> kde-meta and kde-meta is no longer installed).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael
>
>   

emerge -p depclean will give you a list of all of those packages, and 
you can then add to your world file, or uninstall as you see fit....

Be *extremely* careful with this command though...

Anthony


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Connected question: How do I quickly find all the packages that
> got installed as a dependency, but which are no longer needed,
> because the dependent package got removed (as an example, I'd
> like to find kde-i18n, because that used to be a dependency of
> kde-meta and kde-meta is no longer installed).

emerge --depclean

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

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[gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Michael Schmarck]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> The other option is to use the kde*meta ebuilds, which do directly
> depend on the sub-ordinate packages. This is what I do and I don't get
> the effect you observed.

Thanks.

I think I removed kde-meta, because it installs too much stuff,
that I don't need (like kppp). It would be nice, if the kde-meta
ebuild would be more like the gst-plugins-meta package, in that
it sould allow the user to specify what he wants to get installed
and what not. It shouldn't be an all or nothing approach, IMO.

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Dale]

Michael Schmarck wrote:
> <<SNIP >>
>
> Connected question: How do I quickly find all the packages that
> got installed as a dependency, but which are no longer needed,
> because the dependent package got removed (as an example, I'd 
> like to find kde-i18n, because that used to be a dependency of
> kde-meta and kde-meta is no longer installed).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael
>
>   

First things first.  Use caution with this.  A LOT of caution.  Always 
do a --pretend first, no exception.  I would strongly recommend you to 
never let it just remove packages, always remove them by hand.  That's 
how I do it anyway.

emerge -p --depclean

That will tell you packages that are installed and !may! not be needed 
by other packages.  Note all the warnings here?  I have not had anything 
serious removed by using this in ages but strange things can happen.  
You need to be careful with this.  Remove the wrong thing and it can be 
a uphill battle to get it fixed.

If you have a problem with things being removed from your world file, 
someone may can give you the command to rebuild it.  I'd backup the 
current one first, just in case.  I'm pretty sure there is a way to do 
that but can't recall at the moment.  I have never had to do that before.

Dale

:-)  :-) 


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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Michael Schmarck]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>> Connected question: How do I quickly find all the packages that
>> got installed as a dependency, but which are no longer needed,
>> because the dependent package got removed (as an example, I'd
>> like to find kde-i18n, because that used to be a dependency of
>> kde-meta and kde-meta is no longer installed).
> 
> emerge --depclean

thanks. 200 some packages, which would be removed. Quite a 
lot.

After removing stuff, a revdep-rebuild should be done, shouldn't
it?

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:39:11 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> > emerge --depclean  
> 
> thanks. 200 some packages, which would be removed. Quite a 
> lot.

If you've removed kde-meta, I'm not surprised.

> After removing stuff, a revdep-rebuild should be done, shouldn't
> it?

It won't hurt, although I rarely bother. I usually do emerge -uavDN world.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Q:  Why is top-posting evil?
A: backwards read don't humans because

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Anthony Metcalf]

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Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>>     
>>> Connected question: How do I quickly find all the packages that
>>> got installed as a dependency, but which are no longer needed,
>>> because the dependent package got removed (as an example, I'd
>>> like to find kde-i18n, because that used to be a dependency of
>>> kde-meta and kde-meta is no longer installed).
>>>       
>> emerge --depclean
>>     
>
> thanks. 200 some packages, which would be removed. Quite a 
> lot.
>
> After removing stuff, a revdep-rebuild should be done, shouldn't
> it?
>
> Michael
>
>   
Yup :) I would also recommend removing packages by hand.....I won't go 
into detail, but last time I didn't do that, it took me two weeks to 
recover!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The other option is to use the kde*meta ebuilds, which do directly
> > depend on the sub-ordinate packages. This is what I do and I don't
> > get the effect you observed.
>
> Thanks.
>
> I think I removed kde-meta, because it installs too much stuff,
> that I don't need (like kppp). It would be nice, if the kde-meta
> ebuild would be more like the gst-plugins-meta package, in that
> it sould allow the user to specify what he wants to get installed
> and what not. It shouldn't be an all or nothing approach, IMO.
>
> Michael

alan@nazgul ~ $ ls -1d /var/portage/kde-base/*meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdeaccessibility-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdeaddons-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdeadmin-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdeartwork-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdebase-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdebindings-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdeedu-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdegames-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdegraphics-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kde-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdemultimedia-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdenetwork-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdepim-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdesdk-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdetoys-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdeutils-meta
/var/portage/kde-base/kdewebdev-meta

Use these instead of kde-meta. If you want only some stuff in one of 
those and not everything, omit the -meta, look inside it's ebuild and 
install the DEPENDS you do want.

Same result as what you asked for, different means of achieving it.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:30:11 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> I think I removed kde-meta, because it installs too much stuff,
> that I don't need (like kppp). It would be nice, if the kde-meta
> ebuild would be more like the gst-plugins-meta package, in that
> it sould allow the user to specify what he wants to get installed
> and what not. It shouldn't be an all or nothing approach, IMO.

But that's exactly what it's for "merge this to pull in all
non-developer, split kde-base/* packages". If you want to pick and
choose, emerge the packages you want, there's no need to add extra USE
flags and another layer of complexity when the current system handles
both all-in-one and selective installs just fine.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Dolly Parton-- silicone based life

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> >> Connected question: How do I quickly find all the packages that
> >> got installed as a dependency, but which are no longer needed,
> >> because the dependent package got removed (as an example, I'd
> >> like to find kde-i18n, because that used to be a dependency of
> >> kde-meta and kde-meta is no longer installed).
> >
> > emerge --depclean
>
> thanks. 200 some packages, which would be removed. Quite a
> lot.

Ouch. You'll be wanting to go through that lot with a fine toothcomb and 
verify what you really no longer need. 'emerge -n <package>' will put 
the package in world so that it won't be considered by --depclean

With that big a change I usually 'emerge -C' stuff in chunks manually to 
get the --depclean output down to a more manageable length

> After removing stuff, a revdep-rebuild should be done, shouldn't
> it?

In theory yes.
In practice... in practice you get whatever you get, and sometimes 
that's two broken halves. revdep-rebuild usually fixes most of it

Also consider the implications either way of emerge --withbdeps


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Dale wrote:
> That will tell you packages that are installed and !may! not be
> needed by other packages.  Note all the warnings here?  I have not
> had anything serious removed by using this in ages but strange things
> can happen. You need to be careful with this.  Remove the wrong thing
> and it can be a uphill battle to get it fixed.

Like the fellow in the next desk this morning updating a machine that 
hasn't been touched since 2005 (!)

He noticed a blocker with python-updater after 'emerge world' and was 
about to unmerge python and remerge the new one to get around the 
blocker ...

Lucky I saw it in time...

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Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Dale]

Michael Schmarck wrote:
>
> Thanks.
>
> I think I removed kde-meta, because it installs too much stuff,
> that I don't need (like kppp). It would be nice, if the kde-meta
> ebuild would be more like the gst-plugins-meta package, in that
> it sould allow the user to specify what he wants to get installed
> and what not. It shouldn't be an all or nothing approach, IMO.
>
> Michael
>
>   

Ahhh, I see.  You can check the Gentoo docs page and there is a page 
that tells you how NOT to use kde-meta.  It's not a big deal and I think 
most people do it that way.  It's like a lot of things, it's a matter of 
preference.

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-) 
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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Michael Schmarck]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:39:11 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
>> > emerge --depclean
>> 
>> thanks. 200 some packages, which would be removed. Quite a
>> lot.
> 
> If you've removed kde-meta, I'm not surprised.

It's not (mainly) kde packages that show up there. It's:

 app-admin/logrotate
 app-admin/php-toolkit
 app-admin/webapp-config
 app-arch/mt-st
 app-arch/rpm
 app-arch/sharutils
 app-crypt/hashalot
 app-crypt/mhash
 app-crypt/qca
 app-crypt/qca-tls
 app-crypt/shash
 app-doc/chmlib
 app-mobilephone/gnokii
 app-mobilephone/obex-data-server
 app-office/karbon
 app-office/kchart
 app-office/kexi
 app-office/kformula
 app-office/kivio
 app-office/koffice-data
 app-office/koffice-libs
 app-office/koshell
 app-office/kplato
 app-office/kpresenter
 app-office/krita
 app-office/kspread
 app-office/kugar
 app-office/kword
 app-pda/libopensync
 app-portage/eclass-manpages
 app-portage/porthole
 app-shells/zsh
 app-text/enscript
 app-text/hunspell
 app-text/libwpd
 app-text/linuxdoc-tools
 app-text/psutils
 app-text/rcs
 app-text/recode
 app-text/wv2
 dev-cpp/commoncpp2
 dev-cpp/libebt
 dev-cpp/libsexymm
 dev-cpp/libwrapiter
 dev-cpp/libxmlpp
 dev-db/qdbm
 dev-java/ant-junit
 dev-java/ant-owanttask
 dev-java/ant-trax
 dev-java/asm
 dev-java/bsh
 dev-java/hamcrest-core
 dev-java/jakarta-regexp
 dev-java/jarjar
 dev-java/java-getopt
 dev-java/junit
 dev-java/libreadline-java
 dev-java/qdox
 dev-java/tagsoup
 dev-lang/php
 dev-libs/beecrypt
 dev-libs/glib
 dev-libs/gmime
 dev-libs/icu
 dev-libs/libical
 dev-libs/libmcrypt
 dev-libs/libol
 dev-libs/lzo
 dev-libs/mpfr
 dev-libs/pcre++
 dev-libs/xalan-c
 dev-libs/xerces-c
 dev-perl/Algorithm-Diff
 dev-perl/Archive-Zip
 dev-perl/Crypt-OpenSSL-Bignum
 dev-perl/Crypt-OpenSSL-Random
 dev-perl/Crypt-SmbHash
 dev-perl/Devel-Symdump
 dev-perl/Digest-HMAC
 dev-perl/Digest-MD4
 dev-perl/Digest-SHA1
 dev-perl/Error
 dev-perl/File-Which
 dev-perl/Geography-Countries
 dev-perl/Mail-DomainKeys
 dev-perl/Net-DNS
 dev-perl/Net-IP
 dev-perl/Pod-Coverage
 dev-perl/Pod-Escapes
 dev-perl/Pod-Simple
 dev-perl/TermReadKey
 dev-perl/Test-Pod
 dev-perl/Test-Pod-Coverage
 dev-perl/perl-tk
 dev-python/epydoc
 dev-python/pycrypto
 dev-python/pysqlite
 dev-python/pyxml
 dev-python/rhpl
 dev-python/sqlitecachec
 dev-python/urlgrabber
 dev-python/wxpython
 dev-util/cvs
 dev-util/gob
 dev-util/monodoc
 dev-util/yacc
 gnome-extra/gnome-keyring-manager
 gnome-extra/gnome-vfs-obexftp
 gnome-extra/libgda
 kde-base/kde-i18n
 mail-client/mailx-support
 media-gfx/icon-slicer
 media-gfx/nvidia-cg-toolkit
 media-libs/faad2
 media-libs/gle
 media-libs/gstreamer
 media-libs/ilmbase
 media-libs/jbigkit
 media-libs/libfame
 media-libs/libgpod
 media-libs/libmp4v2
 media-libs/libmpeg3
 media-libs/libquicktime
 media-libs/libsamplerate
 media-libs/libsndfile
 media-libs/libsvg
 media-libs/libwmf
 media-libs/moodriver
 media-libs/mutagen
 media-libs/netpbm
 media-libs/openexr
 media-libs/pdflib
 media-libs/speex
 media-libs/t1lib
 media-plugins/gst-plugins-alsa
 media-plugins/gst-plugins-esd
 media-plugins/gst-plugins-flac
 media-plugins/gst-plugins-theora
 media-sound/normalize
 media-sound/sox
 media-video/mjpegtools
 media-video/mpeg2vidcodec
 media-video/transcode
 media-video/vcdimager
 net-analyzer/net-snmp
 net-analyzer/netselect
 net-analyzer/sussen
 net-libs/libesmtp
 net-libs/liblockfile
 net-libs/libotr
 net-libs/librsync
 net-libs/libvncserver
 net-libs/ortp
 net-misc/bridge-utils
 net-misc/netkit-talk
 net-print/foomatic-db
 net-print/foomatic-db-engine
 net-wireless/gnome-bluetooth
 net-wireless/libbtctl
 net-wireless/wireless-tools
 perl-core/DB_File
 perl-core/File-Spec
 perl-core/Time-HiRes
 perl-core/digest-base
 sci-libs/cln
 sci-visualization/gnuplot
 sys-apps/acl
 sys-apps/hotplug-base
 sys-apps/iproute2
 sys-apps/parted
 sys-apps/pcmcia-cs
 sys-apps/rescan-scsi-bus
 sys-apps/sdparm
 sys-apps/setserial
 sys-apps/sg3_utils
 sys-apps/yum
 sys-devel/automake
 sys-devel/bin86
 sys-devel/dev86
 sys-devel/gcc
 sys-fs/fuse-python
 sys-fs/multipath-tools
 sys-kernel/tuxonice-sources
 sys-libs/db
 sys-libs/libuser
 sys-libs/pwdb
 sys-libs/system-config-base
 sys-power/iasl
 virtual/c++-tr1-functional
 virtual/c++-tr1-memory
 virtual/c++-tr1-type-traits
 virtual/httpd-cgi
 virtual/pcmcia
 virtual/perl-DB_File
 virtual/perl-File-Spec
 virtual/perl-PodParser
 virtual/perl-digest-base
 x11-apps/appres
 x11-apps/setxkbmap
 x11-apps/xrandr
 x11-apps/xset
 x11-apps/xwininfo
 x11-drivers/xf86-video-v4l
 x11-libs/fltk
 x11-libs/goffice
 x11-libs/gtk+
 x11-libs/gtkglarea
 x11-libs/libXfontcache
 x11-libs/libast
 x11-libs/libdmx
 x11-libs/libsvg-cairo
 x11-libs/openmotif
 x11-libs/xforms
 x11-misc/read-edid
 x11-proto/dmxproto
 x11-terms/eterm
 x11-themes/gtk-engines-qt

>> After removing stuff, a revdep-rebuild should be done, shouldn't
>> it?
> 
> It won't hurt, although I rarely bother. I usually do emerge -uavDN world.

Noted.
Michael

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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Michael Schmarck]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:30:11 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
>> I think I removed kde-meta, because it installs too much stuff,
>> that I don't need (like kppp). It would be nice, if the kde-meta
>> ebuild would be more like the gst-plugins-meta package, in that
>> it sould allow the user to specify what he wants to get installed
>> and what not. It shouldn't be an all or nothing approach, IMO.
> 
> But that's exactly what it's for "merge this to pull in all
> non-developer, split kde-base/* packages".

Not all -meta packages behave like that - eg. the gst-plugins-meta
package only pulls in, what's wanted (per USE flags).

> If you want to pick and 
> choose, emerge the packages you want, there's no need to add extra USE
> flags and another layer of complexity when the current system handles
> both all-in-one and selective installs just fine.

Well, I disagree. I want to install almost all of the KDE stuff,
but eg. not the PPP things, as I've got not use for that on that system.
But I still would like my world file *NOT* to be cluttered with
a gazillion of kde packages.

The current system absolutely does not handle that just fine.

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Well, I disagree. I want to install almost all of the KDE stuff,
> but eg. not the PPP things, as I've got not use for that on that
> system. But I still would like my world file *NOT* to be cluttered
> with a gazillion of kde packages.
>
> The current system absolutely does not handle that just fine.

Hmmm, well that's mostly just too bad.

The devs built the ebuilds to work the way the work because that's the 
sanest approach when your universe is all the users that there are.

You are perfectly free to copy those ebuilds to your local overlay, wrap 
the DEPENDs in USE checks to give you the behaviour you want. Then you 
can publish them to your website and supply instructions for interested 
users to add them to layman. Then anyone that wants what you want can 
get it off you. Good way to get a taste of what it takes to maintain 
ebuilds for a huge task like KDE (I do it for e17. It's a ball-ache 
sometimes). 

But the portage tree builds are never going to do what you are asking.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:39:11 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> >> > emerge --depclean
> >>
> >> thanks. 200 some packages, which would be removed. Quite a
> >> lot.
> >
> > If you've removed kde-meta, I'm not surprised.
>
> It's not (mainly) kde packages that show up there. It's:

I'm surprised these show up from --depclean:

>  app-admin/logrotate
>  app-arch/sharutils
>  app-crypt/hashalot
>  app-crypt/mhash
>  app-text/psutils
>  dev-libs/glib
>  dev-libs/lzo
>  dev-libs/pcre++
>  dev-util/yacc

After last week's entertainment, why are these not in your world?
>  media-libs/gstreamer
>  media-libs/libgpod
>  media-libs/libmp4v2
>  media-libs/libmpeg3
>  media-libs/libquicktime
>  media-libs/libsamplerate
>  media-libs/libsndfile
>  media-libs/libsvg
>  media-libs/libwmf
>  media-plugins/gst-plugins-alsa
>  media-plugins/gst-plugins-esd
>  media-plugins/gst-plugins-flac
>  media-plugins/gst-plugins-theora

Hmm, more stuff that should be in world if you want it.
>  net-wireless/wireless-tools
>  sys-apps/acl
>  sys-apps/iproute2
>  sys-devel/automake
>  sys-devel/bin86
>  sys-devel/dev86

Ouch!! What did you do to this box that this one shows up? gcc is not in 
world, it's in system, and the only way to get it out of there is to 
edit the profile
>  sys-devel/gcc

I think you need to fix your world before before doing any --depclean 
steps.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Michael Schmarck]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>> Well, I disagree. I want to install almost all of the KDE stuff,
>> but eg. not the PPP things, as I've got not use for that on that
>> system. But I still would like my world file *NOT* to be cluttered
>> with a gazillion of kde packages.
>>
>> The current system absolutely does not handle that just fine.
> 
> Hmmm, well that's mostly just too bad.

Yes, it is, isn't it?

> The devs built the ebuilds to work the way the work because that's the
> sanest approach when your universe is all the users that there are.

Maybe not.

> But the portage tree builds are never going to do what you are asking.

Which majorly sucks, as there are good reasons why the packages
should NOT be the way they are right now.

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[KH]

Hi,

I use following approach:
emerge --sync
emerge -DuavN world
dispatch-conf
emerge --depclean -pv
revdep-rebuild
glsa-check -t all

Whenever there is something changed on the way, I will start with the 
world command again. Sometimes depclean will remove something world will 
emerge again. I want to be on the save side for those cases.

Anyway I also seem to have orphan packages not found by depclean but not 
updated by emerge -DuavN world

My Post (german): 
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-685418-highlight-.html

I would be interested to hear about your outcomes to compare the 
(update)result from you when comparing:
emerge -DuavN world
emerge -aev world
emerge -DuavN --with-bdeps y world

To see if some package is needed by anything you might run equery 
depends <whatever package>

KH

Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>>     
>>> Connected question: How do I quickly find all the packages that
>>> got installed as a dependency, but which are no longer needed,
>>> because the dependent package got removed (as an example, I'd
>>> like to find kde-i18n, because that used to be a dependency of
>>> kde-meta and kde-meta is no longer installed).
>>>       
>> emerge --depclean
>>     
>
> thanks. 200 some packages, which would be removed. Quite a 
> lot.
>
> After removing stuff, a revdep-rebuild should be done, shouldn't
> it?
>
> Michael
>
>   

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[KH]

Maybe he does have multiple versions installed of those packages. What 
is the output of for example:
emerge -avP gcc
?
KH


Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>   
>> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>>     
>>> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:39:11 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>>>       
>>>>> emerge --depclean
>>>>>           
>>>> thanks. 200 some packages, which would be removed. Quite a
>>>> lot.
>>>>         
>>> If you've removed kde-meta, I'm not surprised.
>>>       
>> It's not (mainly) kde packages that show up there. It's:
>>     
>
> I'm surprised these show up from --depclean:
>
>   
>>  app-admin/logrotate
>>  app-arch/sharutils
>>  app-crypt/hashalot
>>  app-crypt/mhash
>>  app-text/psutils
>>  dev-libs/glib
>>  dev-libs/lzo
>>  dev-libs/pcre++
>>  dev-util/yacc
>>     
>
> After last week's entertainment, why are these not in your world?
>   
>>  media-libs/gstreamer
>>  media-libs/libgpod
>>  media-libs/libmp4v2
>>  media-libs/libmpeg3
>>  media-libs/libquicktime
>>  media-libs/libsamplerate
>>  media-libs/libsndfile
>>  media-libs/libsvg
>>  media-libs/libwmf
>>  media-plugins/gst-plugins-alsa
>>  media-plugins/gst-plugins-esd
>>  media-plugins/gst-plugins-flac
>>  media-plugins/gst-plugins-theora
>>     
>
> Hmm, more stuff that should be in world if you want it.
>   
>>  net-wireless/wireless-tools
>>  sys-apps/acl
>>  sys-apps/iproute2
>>  sys-devel/automake
>>  sys-devel/bin86
>>  sys-devel/dev86
>>     
>
> Ouch!! What did you do to this box that this one shows up? gcc is not in 
> world, it's in system, and the only way to get it out of there is to 
> edit the profile
>   
>>  sys-devel/gcc
>>     
>
> I think you need to fix your world before before doing any --depclean 
> steps.
>
>   

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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Michael Schmarck]

KH <gentoo-user@konstantinhansen.de> wrote:

> Maybe he does have multiple versions installed of those packages. What

For gcc: Yes. It's about time to dump gcc-3.4.6.

> is the output of for example:
> emerge -avP gcc
> ?

$ emerge -avP gcc
superuser access is required... adding --pretend to options.


Calculating dependencies... done!

  sys-devel/gcc-4.2.3 pulled in by:
    dev-lang/mono-1.2.6-r2
    dev-libs/elfutils-0.131-r1
    sys-libs/glibc-2.7-r2
    sys-libs/libstdc++-v3-3.3.6
    system
    virtual/c++-tr1-functional-0
    virtual/c++-tr1-memory-0
    virtual/c++-tr1-type-traits-0


>>> These are the packages that would be unmerged:

 sys-devel/gcc
    selected: 3.4.6-r2 
   protected: none 
     omitted: 4.2.3 

>>> 'Selected' packages are slated for removal.
>>> 'Protected' and 'omitted' packages will not be removed.

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> > Maybe he does have multiple versions installed of those packages.
> > What
>
> For gcc: Yes. It's about time to dump gcc-3.4.6.

Yes, I see now. --depclean is removing old SLOTS and the original output 
is either very unverbose, or has been trimmed to list only categories

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

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[gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Michael Schmarck]

Hello.

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>> > On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:39:11 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>> >> > emerge --depclean
>> >>
>> >> thanks. 200 some packages, which would be removed. Quite a
>> >> lot.
>> >
>> > If you've removed kde-meta, I'm not surprised.
>>
>> It's not (mainly) kde packages that show up there. It's:
> 
> I'm surprised these show up from --depclean:
> 
>>  app-admin/logrotate
>>  app-arch/sharutils
>>  app-crypt/hashalot
>>  app-crypt/mhash
>>  app-text/psutils
>>  dev-libs/glib
>>  dev-libs/lzo
>>  dev-libs/pcre++
>>  dev-util/yacc

Well - that's the way it is :)

> After last week's entertainment, why are these not in your world?

Why should they be in world? I prefer to only have in world,
what I really want. For example, I don't think that gst-plugins-alsa
belongs into world, if I have gst-plugins-meta installed.

[...]
>>  media-plugins/gst-plugins-alsa
>>  media-plugins/gst-plugins-esd
>>  media-plugins/gst-plugins-flac
>>  media-plugins/gst-plugins-theora

That's interesting - why did those packages show up? 
media-plugins/gst-plugins-alsa is a dependency of 
media-plugins/gst-plugins-meta, and -meta is in world:

$ grep meta /var/lib/portage/world 
dev-java/metadata-extractor
media-plugins/gst-plugins-meta
x11-themes/metacity-themes

Strange.

Ah! Multiple versions again. gst-plugins-alsa was there
in versions 0.8.12 and 0.10.17.

> Hmm, more stuff that should be in world if you want it.
>>  net-wireless/wireless-tools
>>  sys-apps/acl
>>  sys-apps/iproute2
>>  sys-devel/automake
>>  sys-devel/bin86
>>  sys-devel/dev86
> 
> Ouch!! What did you do to this box that this one shows up? gcc is not in
> world, it's in system, and the only way to get it out of there is to
> edit the profile

I haven't edited profile.

--($:~/Desktop)-- emerge --info
Portage 2.1.5_rc2 (default-linux/x86/2007.0/desktop, gcc-4.2.3, glibc-2.7-r2, 2.6.24-tuxonice-r3.r08.mit-ide-mod_2 i686)
=================================================================
[...]

>>  sys-devel/gcc
> 
> I think you need to fix your world before before doing any --depclean
> steps.

Seems like :)
Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Dale]

Michael Schmarck wrote:
> KH <gentoo-user@konstantinhansen.de> wrote:
>
>   
>> Maybe he does have multiple versions installed of those packages. What
>>     
>
> For gcc: Yes. It's about time to dump gcc-3.4.6.
>
>   
>> is the output of for example:
>> emerge -avP gcc
>> ?
>>     
>
> $ emerge -avP gcc
> superuser access is required... adding --pretend to options.
>
>
> Calculating dependencies... done!
>
>   sys-devel/gcc-4.2.3 pulled in by:
>     dev-lang/mono-1.2.6-r2
>     dev-libs/elfutils-0.131-r1
>     sys-libs/glibc-2.7-r2
>     sys-libs/libstdc++-v3-3.3.6
>     system
>     virtual/c++-tr1-functional-0
>     virtual/c++-tr1-memory-0
>     virtual/c++-tr1-type-traits-0
>
>
>   
>>>> These are the packages that would be unmerged:
>>>>         
>
>  sys-devel/gcc
>     selected: 3.4.6-r2 
>    protected: none 
>      omitted: 4.2.3 
>
>   
>>>> 'Selected' packages are slated for removal.
>>>> 'Protected' and 'omitted' packages will not be removed.
>>>>         
>
> Michael
>
>   


It's been a while but make sure you have switched to the new gcc and it 
is working fine before removing the old one.  Nothing worse than 
removing gcc then finding out the new one isn't . . . functional.  Sort 
of fun to fix.

Dale

:-)  :-) 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Dale wrote:
>   
>> That will tell you packages that are installed and !may! not be
>> needed by other packages.  Note all the warnings here?  I have not
>> had anything serious removed by using this in ages but strange things
>> can happen. You need to be careful with this.  Remove the wrong thing
>> and it can be a uphill battle to get it fixed.
>>     
>
> Like the fellow in the next desk this morning updating a machine that 
> hasn't been touched since 2005 (!)
>
> He noticed a blocker with python-updater after 'emerge world' and was 
> about to unmerge python and remerge the new one to get around the 
> blocker ...
>
> Lucky I saw it in time...
>
>   


New friend for life I suspect.  That would be a doozy for sure.  I 
haven't done that yet.

Dale

:-)  :-)
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Anthony Metcalf]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 388 bytes --]

Dale wrote:
>
> It's been a while but make sure you have switched to the new gcc and 
> it is working fine before removing the old one.  Nothing worse than 
> removing gcc then finding out the new one isn't . . . functional.  
> Sort of fun to fix.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)

Tell me about it!

Hint: Don't then unpack a stage 3 tarball in / to get a working gcc 
back......


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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Michael Schmarck]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>> > Maybe he does have multiple versions installed of those packages.
>> > What
>>
>> For gcc: Yes. It's about time to dump gcc-3.4.6.
> 
> Yes, I see now. --depclean is removing old SLOTS and the original output
> is either very unverbose, or has been trimmed to list only categories

I posted the output of:

        emerge --depclean -p | grep -v : | sort | uniq

So, yes, it's very unverbose. The verbose output is, well,
too verbose, if you've got some 200 packages :)

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 431 bytes --]

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 07:08:42 -0500, Dale wrote:

> It's been a while but make sure you have switched to the new gcc and it 
> is working fine before removing the old one.  Nothing worse than 
> removing gcc then finding out the new one isn't . . . functional.  Sort 
> of fun to fix.

NEVER unmerge a system package without building a binary package first.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Tact is the intelligence of the heart.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Dale]

Anthony Metcalf wrote:
> Dale wrote:
>>
>> It's been a while but make sure you have switched to the new gcc and 
>> it is working fine before removing the old one.  Nothing worse than 
>> removing gcc then finding out the new one isn't . . . functional.  
>> Sort of fun to fix.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-)
>
> Tell me about it!
>
> Hint: Don't then unpack a stage 3 tarball in / to get a working gcc 
> back......
>

True.  That would work but I would be doing a fresh install.  I suspect 
there would be a few orphaned files around after that.  Still best to 
'test the waters' before diving in on such a critical package.  I don't 
usually remove mine until all my packages have been rebuilt, just to 
make sure.

Dale

:-)  :-) 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1132 bytes --]

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:01:31 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> > But that's exactly what it's for "merge this to pull in all
> > non-developer, split kde-base/* packages".  
> 
> Not all -meta packages behave like that - eg. the gst-plugins-meta
> package only pulls in, what's wanted (per USE flags).

As does kde-meta to an extent, in that USE flags are respected for the
individual KDE builds. But the whole point of kde-meta is to install all
of KDE, it recreates the functionality of the old monolithic ebuilds.

> > If you want to pick and 
> > choose, emerge the packages you want, there's no need to add extra USE
> > flags and another layer of complexity when the current system handles
> > both all-in-one and selective installs just fine.  
> 
> Well, I disagree. I want to install almost all of the KDE stuff,
> but eg. not the PPP things, as I've got not use for that on that system.
> But I still would like my world file *NOT* to be cluttered with
> a gazillion of kde packages.

Put it in /etc/portage/profile/package.provided


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Anyone able to feel pain is trainable.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 458 bytes --]

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:20:21 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> Which majorly sucks, as there are good reasons why the packages
> should NOT be the way they are right now.

Such as?

Hint: uncluttering the world file is not a reason for changing the
ebuilds, lthough it is a good reason for a more friendly world list
format.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Dale wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Dale wrote:
> >> That will tell you packages that are installed and !may! not be
> >> needed by other packages.  Note all the warnings here?  I have not
> >> had anything serious removed by using this in ages but strange
> >> things can happen. You need to be careful with this.  Remove the
> >> wrong thing and it can be a uphill battle to get it fixed.
> >
> > Like the fellow in the next desk this morning updating a machine
> > that hasn't been touched since 2005 (!)
> >
> > He noticed a blocker with python-updater after 'emerge world' and
> > was about to unmerge python and remerge the new one to get around
> > the blocker ...
> >
> > Lucky I saw it in time...
>
> New friend for life I suspect.  That would be a doozy for sure.  I
> haven't done that yet.

I have :-)

I've also removed (forcibly) all versions of gcc, portage, and glibc 
individually and all together. quickpkg is a nice thing to know 
about :-)

Once I even merged busybox to the root filesystem. It overwrites all the 
Unix tools with symlinks to busybox. Cool, you get a tiny install that 
can go on an embedded device.

BUT, busybox give you tar, it does not give you tar -o

Guess which gentoo-specific app requires tar -o? Do I hear the 
word "portage"? Anyone??



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Michael Schmarck]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:20:21 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
>> Which majorly sucks, as there are good reasons why the packages
>> should NOT be the way they are right now.
> 
> Such as?

Finer control, without cluttering the world file.

> Hint: uncluttering the world file is not a reason for changing the
> ebuilds, 

Why not?

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 07:08:42 -0500, Dale wrote:
> > It's been a while but make sure you have switched to the new gcc
> > and it is working fine before removing the old one.  Nothing worse
> > than removing gcc then finding out the new one isn't . . .
> > functional.  Sort of fun to fix.
>
> NEVER unmerge a system package without building a binary package
> first.

Tut, tut. Neil, where's the fun in that?

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> > I think you need to fix your world before before doing any
> > --depclean steps.
>
> Seems like :)

Probably not now that we have the full picture though

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Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Dale wrote:
>   
>
> I have :-)
>
> I've also removed (forcibly) all versions of gcc, portage, and glibc 
> individually and all together. quickpkg is a nice thing to know 
> about :-)
>   

I got that covered.  I found this little tid bit of info.  OP may want 
to make a note of this too.  Pssssst, you see this?

FEATURES="buildsyspkg sandbox fixpackages parallel-fetch"

I like the buildsyspkg part.  At least I will have the system packages 
and can boot up.
> Once I even merged busybox to the root filesystem. It overwrites all the 
> Unix tools with symlinks to busybox. Cool, you get a tiny install that 
> can go on an embedded device.
>   

Sounds cool, for the right equipment.   ;-)  Maybe not a desktop or a 
fancy server, on second thought.   :-p
> BUT, busybox give you tar, it does not give you tar -o
>
> Guess which gentoo-specific app requires tar -o? Do I hear the 
> word "portage"? Anyone??
>
>   

Naturally.  What else could use that?

Dale

:-)  :-)
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Dale]

Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>
>   
>> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:20:21 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Which majorly sucks, as there are good reasons why the packages
>>> should NOT be the way they are right now.
>>>       
>> Such as?
>>     
>
> Finer control, without cluttering the world file.
>
>   
>> Hint: uncluttering the world file is not a reason for changing the
>> ebuilds, 
>>     
>
> Why not?
>
> Michael
>
>   


Why all the worry about the world file?  You shouldn't need to go and 
read the world file anyway.  I have a time or two but just because I was 
curious.

Dale

:-)  :-) 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:20:21 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> >> Which majorly sucks, as there are good reasons why the packages
> >> should NOT be the way they are right now.
> >
> > Such as?
>
> Finer control, without cluttering the world file.

Think it through. The purpose of a meta file is to provide one ebuild 
that pulls in many others.

Now, what are you going to make optional and what must remain mandatory? 
What is affected by the presence or removal of said packages?

Take kwalletmanager for instance. Maybe you don't want it so you take it 
out of USE for kdeutils. Now konqueror doesn't remember your passwords 
and you type them every time but that's fine as you want it that way.

Later you emerge kontact to get kmail but now you do want kwalletmanager 
(otherwise your account passwords are in a world readable *rc file). 
Hmm. Need kwalletmanager. Make it mandatory. Except this conflicts 
nicely with kdeutils and kdelibs. Bugger, now you need to rebuild 
kdelibs with kwalletmanager support and leave it out of konqueror.

Shit. USE flag conflict. OK, take the USE flag out of make.conf, and put 
it in packages.use.

Shit, shit triple shit. There are 200+ kde ebuilds and now you need a 
separate entry in packages.use for every one that can have 
kwalletmanager support, some with and some without. My packages.use/ is 
already waaaaaaaaaaay too cluttered, it's a lousy thing to have to 
maintain.

OK, so now we just stick kwalletmanager support into everything. Open 
packages.use in vi and get editing, deleting lots of "-" characters. 
Hang on, this is *nix, I can do:

sed 's/-kwalletmanager/kwalletmanager/g' /etc/portage/package.use/*

Oops, need to sudo that. Now hope there isn't a package called 
konqueror-kwalletmanager...

Aha! We can fix that permanently! We write a GLEP that says no package 
can ever have a "-" in it's name followed by the name of any USE flag, 
either existing or still to come.

I could go on, but do you see what is happening? You swap a voluminous 
(but not complex) world file for a very much more complex make.conf & 
package.use system.

Why would you ever do such a thing? It's insane!

> > Hint: uncluttering the world file is not a reason for changing the
> > ebuilds,
>
> Why not?

Mostly because the dev says so and you are not the dev. If you are the 
dev, you get to say how it works.

Michael, I think I see what is going on here. You seem to want to 
announce that the world must support your favourite need of the week, 
without examining the impact it will have on everyone else and thinking 
it through. You come across as someone who has never had to maintain 
software that other people use, as an experienced maintainer quickly 
loses that point of view (with it, they do not last long enough to 
become experienced maintainers...)

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:42:51 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > NEVER unmerge a system package without building a binary package
> > first.  
> 
> Tut, tut. Neil, where's the fun in that?

The fun is in learning the rule in the first place. It's like making
backups, no one does it because someone else said it's a good idea :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 14:36:45 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> >> Which majorly sucks, as there are good reasons why the packages
> >> should NOT be the way they are right now.  
> > 
> > Such as?  
> 
> Finer control, without cluttering the world file.

What could be finer than picking which packages you want to install. The
KDE meta packages are for people who don't want fine control.

> > Hint: uncluttering the world file is not a reason for changing the
> > ebuilds,   
> 
> Why not?

1) Because a cluttered world file is hardly a big deal, and far less
likely to have unforeseen consequences than a cluttered USE list and
package.use file.

2) Because if the format does become too unwieldy for the job, fix the
format instead of kludging around with ebuilds.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth. *
Bohr

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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Michael Schmarck]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 14:36:45 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
>> >> Which majorly sucks, as there are good reasons why the packages
>> >> should NOT be the way they are right now.
>> > 
>> > Such as?
>> 
>> Finer control, without cluttering the world file.
> 
> What could be finer than picking which packages you want to install. The
> KDE meta packages are for people who don't want fine control.

It really depends on, from what side you're coming. If you want
just a few packages, then all is well with the current approach.

If you, however, want everything but a few packages, then the
current approach isn't so fine anymore.

I do understand that there's a reason why it is the way it is,
but this does not mean, that I have to like it, does it?

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:27:59 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:

> It really depends on, from what side you're coming. If you want
> just a few packages, then all is well with the current approach.
> 
> If you, however, want everything but a few packages, then the
> current approach isn't so fine anymore.

Do as previously suggested and use individual meta packages instead of
the all-encompassing kde-meta, or use a mixture of meta and individual
packages (that is what I do).

If you just want to omit a couple of packages, try package.provided. This
is not what it is meant for, but I have used it to exclude kppp and
kpersonaliser.

> I do understand that there's a reason why it is the way it is,
> but this does not mean, that I have to like it, does it?

Of course not :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Handy Guide to Modern Science:
   1. If it's green or it wiggles, it's biology.
   2. If it stinks, it's chemistry.
   3. If it doesn't work, it's physics.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "emerge -DuvatN world" doesn't show all upgradeable packages

[Michael Schmarck]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:27:59 +0200, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
>> It really depends on, from what side you're coming. If you want
>> just a few packages, then all is well with the current approach.
>> 
>> If you, however, want everything but a few packages, then the
>> current approach isn't so fine anymore.
> 
> Do as previously suggested and use individual meta packages instead of
> the all-encompassing kde-meta, 

I think, I'm doing that. And in doing that, I came to the point,
that nothing depends on kde-i18n.

I did a

        find /usr/portage -name "*ebuild" -exec grep kde-i18n {} +

and found, that only the kde-meta package depends on kde-i18n.

Michael

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