[gentoo-user] rhythmbox plays silently

[gentoo-user] rhythmbox plays silently

[Michael Schmarck]

Good evening!

I've got a problem with media-sound/rhythmbox-0.11.2-r1 on
my new ~x86 system. When I play an MP3 file, I see that rb
progresses and when I turn on visualization, I see the sound.
But I hear nothing at all :/ 

Any ideas about why that's so?

The volume slider in rb is all the way up. Also all the sliders
in the mixer are all up. And when I use a different player,
like Amarok, VLC or MPlayer, I hear sound when I play the song
that's silent in Rhythmbox. This happens with all the songs
I tried.

Well - what to do?

Thanks,
Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] rhythmbox plays silently

[Andrey Falko]

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Michael Schmarck
<michael.schmarck@habmalnefrage.de> wrote:
> Good evening!
>
>  I've got a problem with media-sound/rhythmbox-0.11.2-r1 on
>  my new ~x86 system. When I play an MP3 file, I see that rb
>  progresses and when I turn on visualization, I see the sound.
>  But I hear nothing at all :/
>
>  Any ideas about why that's so?
>
>  The volume slider in rb is all the way up. Also all the sliders
>  in the mixer are all up. And when I use a different player,
>  like Amarok, VLC or MPlayer, I hear sound when I play the song
>  that's silent in Rhythmbox. This happens with all the songs
>  I tried.
>
>  Well - what to do?
>
>  Thanks,
>  Michael
>
Do you play sound with something else before running rhythmbox? What
happens when you run rhythmbox after restarting alsa? Also does
rhythmbox use alsa or oss?
>  --
>  gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] rhythmbox plays silently

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 25 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Good evening!
>
> I've got a problem with media-sound/rhythmbox-0.11.2-r1 on
> my new ~x86 system. When I play an MP3 file, I see that rb
> progresses and when I turn on visualization, I see the sound.
> But I hear nothing at all :/
>
> Any ideas about why that's so?
>
> The volume slider in rb is all the way up. Also all the sliders
> in the mixer are all up. And when I use a different player,
> like Amarok, VLC or MPlayer, I hear sound when I play the song
> that's silent in Rhythmbox. This happens with all the songs
> I tried.
>
> Well - what to do?

Easy.

Don't use rhythmbox. Don't use Gnome.
Do use KDE. Do use Amarok. Do use mplayer.

*especially* do use mplayer.

I know this isn't what you want to hear. I just couldn't resist an open 
invitation to dig at Gnome. I'll crawl back into my KDE and e17 fanboy 
clubhouse and shut up now.



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Gnome: No sound - "No volume control GStreamer plugins and/or devices found" (was: rhythmbox plays silently)

[Michael Schmarck]

Hello.

Andrey Falko <ma3oxuct <at> gmail.com> writes:

> 
> On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Michael Schmarck
> <michael.schmarck <at> habmalnefrage.de> wrote:
> > Good evening!
> >
> >  I've got a problem with media-sound/rhythmbox-0.11.2-r1 on
> >  my new ~x86 system. When I play an MP3 file, I see that rb
> >  progresses and when I turn on visualization, I see the sound.
> >  But I hear nothing at all :/
> >
> >  Any ideas about why that's so?
> >
> >  The volume slider in rb is all the way up. Also all the sliders
> >  in the mixer are all up. And when I use a different player,
> >  like Amarok, VLC or MPlayer, I hear sound when I play the song
> >  that's silent in Rhythmbox. This happens with all the songs
> >  I tried.
> >
> >  Well - what to do?
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >  Michael
> >
> Do you play sound with something else before running rhythmbox? 

I don't quite understand - as I said, when I use something else,
like Mplayer, Xine or Amarok, I hear something. With Rhythmbox,
and also Totem as I just noticed, I hear nothing.

There's another problem: When I start gnome-volume-control, I get:

  No volume control GStreamer plugins and/or devices found

Hmm...

> What
> happens when you run rhythmbox after restarting alsa? 

You mean after doing /etc/init.d/alsasound restart? Nothing
special happens - still beautiful silence :)

> Also does
> rhythmbox use alsa or oss?

I suppose alsa - I set USE=-oss in make.conf. How do I check?
gst-plugins-alsa is NOT installed.

Thanks so far,
Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: Gnome: No sound - "No volume control GStreamer plugins and/or devices found" (was: rhythmbox plays silently)

[Michael Schmarck]

I wrote:

> Andrey Falko <ma3oxuct <at> gmail.com> writes:
> > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Michael Schmarck
> > <michael.schmarck <at> habmalnefrage.de> wrote:

> There's another problem: When I start gnome-volume-control, I get:
> 
>   No volume control GStreamer plugins and/or devices found
> 
> Hmm...
[...]
> > Also does
> > rhythmbox use alsa or oss?
> 
> I suppose alsa - I set USE=-oss in make.conf. How do I check?
> gst-plugins-alsa is NOT installed.

That's it!

On my new system, I'm using Xfce; on other systems I used to use
Gnome. I suppose Gnome pulls in gst-plugins-meta which may pull in
gst-plugins-alsa. Xfce doesn't do that (of course).

After installing gst-plugins-meta (and gst-plugins-alsa), I'm able
to hear something.

Nice!

Andrey, thanks for your suggestions - they made me solve the problem.

Have a nice evening,
Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Michael Schmarck]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon <at> gmail.com> writes:

> 
> On Tuesday 25 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> > Good evening!
> >
> > I've got a problem with media-sound/rhythmbox-0.11.2-r1 on
> > my new ~x86 system. When I play an MP3 file, I see that rb
> > progresses and when I turn on visualization, I see the sound.
> > But I hear nothing at all :/
> >
> > Any ideas about why that's so?
> >
> > The volume slider in rb is all the way up. Also all the sliders
> > in the mixer are all up. And when I use a different player,
> > like Amarok, VLC or MPlayer, I hear sound when I play the song
> > that's silent in Rhythmbox. This happens with all the songs
> > I tried.
> >
> > Well - what to do?
> 
> Easy.
> 
> Don't use rhythmbox. Don't use Gnome.

Why's that? Any particular reason why I should not use good
programs?

> Do use KDE.

Most certainly not.

> Do use Amarok. Do use mplayer.

If it makes sense.

> *especially* do use mplayer.

Nope. Not for that task. You know, unlike you, I'm more into
using tools that are made for a task.

> I know this isn't what you want to hear.

Exactly. I wanted to hear helpful comments.

> I just couldn't resist an open 
> invitation to dig at Gnome.

Oh, you mean you couldn't resist an open invitation to make
yourself look like a fool? You were quite successul in doing
so, I've gotta say, by replying without knowing an answer - or
did you just wanted to look like a moron?

Well - "mission accomplished", as they say.

> I'll crawl back into my KDE and e17 fanboy 
> clubhouse and shut up now.

It would've been better if you would've just shut up right
from the beginning - or simply post helpful comments. The
latter would be the preferred option, as far as I'm concerned.

Michael

PS: Does anyone know if Gmane features a troll filter?

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 25 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> > I'll crawl back into my KDE and e17 fanboy
> > clubhouse and shut up now.
>
> It would've been better if you would've just shut up right
> from the beginning - or simply post helpful comments. The
> latter would be the preferred option, as far as I'm concerned.
>
> Michael
>
> PS: Does anyone know if Gmane features a troll filter?

touchy, touchy. It's a joke, something humans do on slow news days like 
today. I'm very sorry you didn't appreciate it, but life's like that 
sometimes. It's also rather common on this list, probably because it 
relieves the tedium of the work we do. Here's what I suggest:

go outside, look at the big orange ball in the sky, take a deep breath 
and count to 10. Then realise that humans are quirky, gentoo users even 
more so. If you then re-read my original, and admittedly value-less 
post with questionable humour, you will see that no sane rational 
person should ever have taken it seriously.

Now, onto your actual problem. It is exceptionally hard to even attempt 
to provide a solution unless someone else fixed the exact same problem 
before, as you have not provided any configuration at all and very 
little useful information. Hence your post was as much noise as mine 
was. Nonetheless I shall try, so please provide the following:

1. the output of lspci as it relates to audio so we can see what 
hardware you have
2. What engine does rhythmbox use? gstreamer? If so, do other gstreamer 
apps work correctly on your box?
3. With what options did you compile rhythmbox and gstreamer (if 
applicable)?
4. Lastly, this is out on left field, please confirm that rhythmbox is 
indeed using alsa and not oss

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gnome: No sound - "No volume control GStreamer plugins and/or devices found" (was: rhythmbox plays silently)

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 25 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> I wrote:
> > Andrey Falko <ma3oxuct <at> gmail.com> writes:
> > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Michael Schmarck
> > > <michael.schmarck <at> habmalnefrage.de> wrote:
> >
> > There's another problem: When I start gnome-volume-control, I get:
> >
> >   No volume control GStreamer plugins and/or devices found
> >
> > Hmm...
>
> [...]
>
> > > Also does
> > > rhythmbox use alsa or oss?
> >
> > I suppose alsa - I set USE=-oss in make.conf. How do I check?
> > gst-plugins-alsa is NOT installed.
>
> That's it!
>
> On my new system, I'm using Xfce; on other systems I used to use
> Gnome. I suppose Gnome pulls in gst-plugins-meta which may pull in
> gst-plugins-alsa. Xfce doesn't do that (of course).
>
> After installing gst-plugins-meta (and gst-plugins-alsa), I'm able
> to hear something.
>
> Nice!
>
> Andrey, thanks for your suggestions - they made me solve the problem.

Something's wrong there:

alan@nazgul ~ $ equery depends -a gst-plugins-alsa
[ Searching for packages depending on gst-plugins-alsa... ]
media-libs/gst-plugins-base-0.10.14 (alsa? 
>=media-plugins/gst-plugins-alsa-0.10)
media-plugins/gst-plugins-meta-0.10 (alsa? 
>=media-plugins/gst-plugins-alsa-0.10)
media-plugins/gst-plugins-meta-0.10-r1 (alsa? 
>=media-plugins/gst-plugins-alsa-0.10)
<snip irrelevant stuff>

alan@nazgul ~ $ equery depends -a gst-plugins-meta
[ Searching for packages depending on gst-plugins-meta... ]
gnome-base/control-center-2.20.3 (media-plugins/gst-plugins-meta:0.10)
media-video/totem-2.22.0 (>=media-plugins/gst-plugins-meta-0.10-r1)

alan@nazgul ~ $ equery depends -a gst-plugins-base
[ Searching for packages depending on gst-plugins-base... ]
<snip HUGE list...>
media-sound/rhythmbox-0.10.1-r1 (>=media-libs/gst-plugins-base-0.10)
media-sound/rhythmbox-0.11.2-r1 (>=media-libs/gst-plugins-base-0.10.11)


Looking into ebuilds, it would appear that gst-plugins-meta used to have 
alsa and oss USE flags. The most current version doesn't, so you either 
have to emerge gst-plugins-alsa manually or emerge gst-plugins-meta to 
get alsa support. Which seems really odd as the vast majority of users 
will have alsa or oss.

Perhaps you could file a feature request at b.g.o. to get the old 
behaviour back. It seems entirely reasonable to me that rhythmbox 
should DEPENDs on gst-plugins-base which should conditionally DEPEND 
on -alsa or -oss (or other sound systems). Unless rhythmbox can serve 
up over the network that is, in which case local hardware support might 
not be needed.



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Michael Schmarck]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> Now, onto your actual problem. It is exceptionally hard to even attempt
> to provide a solution unless someone else fixed the exact same problem
> before, as you have not provided any configuration at all and very
> little useful information.

What would you have wanted to see? I wrote that sound works. You
don't need more information.

> Hence your post was as much noise as mine 
> was. 

That's why other people, or at least Andrey, was able to help, where as
you were just a moron.

> Nonetheless I shall try, so please provide the following: 

How nice from you, now that the problem has been solved.

> 1. the output of lspci as it relates to audio so we can see what
> hardware you have

Why should that matter? After all, sound playback works (in other
programs).

> 2. What engine does rhythmbox use? gstreamer? If so, do other gstreamer
> apps work correctly on your box?

That was the million dollar question.

> 3. With what options did you compile rhythmbox and gstreamer (if
> applicable)?

Does not matter.

> 4. Lastly, this is out on left field, please confirm that rhythmbox is
> indeed using alsa and not oss

Question 2 covers that.

Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Gnome: No sound - "No volume control GStreamer plugins and/or devices found"

[Michael Schmarck]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> Perhaps you could file a feature request at b.g.o. to get the old
> behaviour back. It seems entirely reasonable to me that rhythmbox
> should DEPENDs on gst-plugins-base which should conditionally DEPEND
> on -alsa or -oss (or other sound systems).

Isn't that what the gst-plugins-meta package does?

RDEPEND="oss? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-oss-0.10 )
        alsa? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-alsa-0.10 )
        esd? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-esd-0.10 )
        X? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-x-0.10 )
        xv? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-xvideo-0.10 )
        dvb? ( media-plugins/gst-plugins-dvb
               >=media-libs/gst-plugins-bad-0.10.6
                   >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-fluendo-mpegdemux-0.10.15 )
        mythtv? ( media-plugins/gst-plugins-mythtv )"

I filed a bug report at http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214831.

Michael

PS: Now you're being helpful. Thanks a lot for that!

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Gnome: No sound - "No volume control GStreamer plugins and/or devices found"

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 26 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Perhaps you could file a feature request at b.g.o. to get the old
> > behaviour back. It seems entirely reasonable to me that rhythmbox
> > should DEPENDs on gst-plugins-base which should conditionally
> > DEPEND on -alsa or -oss (or other sound systems).
>
> Isn't that what the gst-plugins-meta package does?
>
> RDEPEND="oss? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-oss-0.10 )
>         alsa? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-alsa-0.10 )
>         esd? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-esd-0.10 )
>         X? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-x-0.10 )
>         xv? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-xvideo-0.10 )
>         dvb? ( media-plugins/gst-plugins-dvb
>
>                >=media-libs/gst-plugins-bad-0.10.6
>                >
>                    >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-fluendo-mpegdemux-0.10
>                    >.15 )
>
>         mythtv? ( media-plugins/gst-plugins-mythtv )"
>
> I filed a bug report at
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214831.

It all makes sense in a kind of roundabout way:

gst-plugins-meta installs everything, so rhythmbox does not DEPEND on 
it - that would force a user to have every possible plugin with no 
option to not have them (very much a gentoo no-no). -meta packages tend 
to not be DEPENDED on, they are there as a convenience for user that 
want everything and can't be bothered to put the whole shebang in 
world.

rhythmbox DEPENDS on gst-plugins-base to give you the required framework 
that will handle the plugins you want (you get to pick and install them 
manually...)

The question now is why were the alsa, oss and other drivers removed 
from the -base ebuild? I recall something similar with another sound 
app a while ago, the reason is that it could be used as a networked 
sound delivery server and there's no good reason to require the user to 
have sound driver support on the local machine. I suspect your bug will 
be closed WONTFIX, with luck the dev will justify their reasoning.



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Gnome: No sound - "No volume control GStreamer plugins and/or devices found"

[Michael Schmarck]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday 26 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Perhaps you could file a feature request at b.g.o. to get the old
>> > behaviour back. It seems entirely reasonable to me that rhythmbox
>> > should DEPENDs on gst-plugins-base which should conditionally
>> > DEPEND on -alsa or -oss (or other sound systems).
>>
>> Isn't that what the gst-plugins-meta package does?
>>
>> RDEPEND="oss? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-oss-0.10 )
>>         alsa? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-alsa-0.10 )
>>         esd? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-esd-0.10 )
>>         X? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-x-0.10 )
>>         xv? ( >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-xvideo-0.10 )
>>         dvb? ( media-plugins/gst-plugins-dvb
>>
>>                >=media-libs/gst-plugins-bad-0.10.6
>>                >
>>                    >=media-plugins/gst-plugins-fluendo-mpegdemux-0.10
>>                    >.15 )
>>
>>         mythtv? ( media-plugins/gst-plugins-mythtv )"
>>
>> I filed a bug report at
>> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214831.
> 
> It all makes sense in a kind of roundabout way:

Does it?

gst-plugins-meta MAY install everything, if all the USE flags
are set. But I don't quite get, why rb (or any other gst using
app) should not depend on it.

> gst-plugins-meta installs everything, so rhythmbox does not DEPEND on
> it - that would force a user to have every possible plugin with no
> option to not have them (very much a gentoo no-no). 

Nope, that's not the case.

> -meta packages tend 
> to not be DEPENDED on, they are there as a convenience for user that
> want everything and can't be bothered to put the whole shebang in
> world.

But that's not what gst-plugins-meta does. Read the ebuild 
again. It features alsa, oss and what-not USE flags. And only
if those flags are set, stuff is installed.

> rhythmbox DEPENDS on gst-plugins-base to give you the required framework
> that will handle the plugins you want (you get to pick and install them
> manually...)

No, that's not the case. Read the bug  report and read the bugs
that Jakub pointed out there.

> The question now is why were the alsa, oss and other drivers removed
> from the -base ebuild? 

Because they belong to the meta package, I suppose. The real
question rather is, why was rb not updated to depend on -meta.
I filed https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214852 for that.

> I recall something similar with another sound 
> app a while ago, the reason is that it could be used as a networked
> sound delivery server and there's no good reason to require the user to
> have sound driver support on the local machine. I suspect your bug will
> be closed WONTFIX, with luck the dev will justify their reasoning.

If not, I'll reopen it. 

Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Gnome: No sound - "No volume control GStreamer plugins and/or devices found"

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thursday 27 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> > The question now is why were the alsa, oss and other drivers
> > removed from the -base ebuild?
>
> Because they belong to the meta package, I suppose. The real
> question rather is, why was rb not updated to depend on -meta.
> I filed https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214852 for that.

Good luck with getting a dev to agree to that. I wouldn't, and don't 
know a single case in portage where an ebuild DEPENDS on a -meta ebuild 
(possible -metas DEPENDING on subordinate -metas excepted)

-meta packages are designed to be manually added to world by users who 
wish an easy way to emerge everything. It's not described in policy 
anywhere I have ever seen, the actual usage in practise tells you the 
intended usage.

Go back and read bug 159470 again, especially comments 3 and 4. The 
dependencies you propose cause circular dependency loops and 
recompilation of packages that depend on the USE flags when they 
change, even when the resulting files installed are EXACTLY the same as 
the ones replaced. This is the reason why the USE flags were removed 
from the ebuild, to save you from the horror that is circular deps.

> > I recall something similar with another sound
> > app a while ago, the reason is that it could be used as a networked
> > sound delivery server and there's no good reason to require the
> > user to have sound driver support on the local machine. I suspect
> > your bug will be closed WONTFIX, with luck the dev will justify
> > their reasoning.
>
> If not, I'll reopen it.

And Jakob will probably just close it. He's brutal about that, and it's 
his job. The problem you are trying to solve would be much better 
served with a request for an ELOG to be emitted by rhythmbox alerting 
to user to the need to install gst-plugins-whatever.

There's a damn good reason why rhythmbox does does depend on -meta. That 
will never happen, so you should get over it. Bug 159470 explains why 
it's not a good idea to depend on -base either, so now you get to issue 
one more emerge by yourself. These decisions are made taking the entire 
Gentoo ecosystem into account and what is best for all users. If you 
will be inconvenienced by a step taken for the greater good and there 
is no sane way to give you what you'd like, then the loser will be you. 
Sorry.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: Gnome: No sound - "No volume control GStreamer plugins and/or devices found"

[Michael Schmarck]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon <at> gmail.com> writes:

> 
> On Thursday 27 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> > > The question now is why were the alsa, oss and other drivers
> > > removed from the -base ebuild?
> >
> > Because they belong to the meta package, I suppose. The real
> > question rather is, why was rb not updated to depend on -meta.
> > I filed https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214852 for that.
> 
> Good luck with getting a dev to agree to that. I wouldn't, and don't 
> know a single case in portage where an ebuild DEPENDS on a -meta ebuild 
> (possible -metas DEPENDING on subordinate -metas excepted)

In that case, rb should depend on gst-plugins-base, but that's
also not what them devs want. It rather seems, that they prefer
that users have a non-functional system - which I find a quite
strange attitude. But that's just me, I guess.

> -meta packages are designed to be manually added to world by users who 
> wish an easy way to emerge everything.

Fine, but did you actually have a look at the gst-plugins-meta
package? It does *NOT* add everything. It is *NOT* at all like
the kde-meta package. The gst-plugins-meta package only adds
everything, if all the USE flags are set. Again, that's very
much different from the kde-meta package - for it to be the
same, the kde-meta would need to have, let's say, a "ppp"
flag with which a user could control if ppp stuff (kppp for
example) get's installed. But there's no such flag.

> It's not described in policy 
> anywhere I have ever seen, the actual usage in practise tells you the 
> intended usage.

The actual usage of other meta packages (again, I'm thinking
abut kde-meta and also gnome-base/gnome here) differs *completely*
from the usage of the gst-plugins-meta package. So I don't
see, how you can compare different things here.

> Go back and read bug 159470 again, especially comments 3 and 4.

I don't quite understand that. Nobody is proposing, that rb should
now grow an "alsa" USE flag. I'm also not saying that gst-plugins-base
should re-grow the alsa USE flag.

> The 
> dependencies you propose cause circular dependency loops

Why's that?

rb should depend on gst-plugins-meta which should depend on
gst-plugins-alsa (if the USE flag is set so).

> and 
> recompilation of packages that depend on the USE flags when they 
> change, even when the resulting files installed are EXACTLY the same as 
> the ones replaced.

Care to expand on that?

> This is the reason why the USE flags were removed 
> from the ebuild, 

That's fine.

> to save you from the horror that is circular deps.

Could you cook up a testcase to show that?

> > > I recall something similar with another sound
> > > app a while ago, the reason is that it could be used as a networked
> > > sound delivery server and there's no good reason to require the
> > > user to have sound driver support on the local machine. I suspect
> > > your bug will be closed WONTFIX, with luck the dev will justify
> > > their reasoning.
> >
> > If not, I'll reopen it.
> 
> And Jakob will probably just close it.

Then I'll reopen it.

> He's brutal about that, and it's 
> his job. 

Dunno. But let's not discuss Jakub.

> The problem you are trying to solve would be much better 
> served with a request for an ELOG to be emitted by rhythmbox alerting 
> to user to the need to install gst-plugins-whatever.

I don't think so.

> There's a damn good reason why rhythmbox does does depend on -meta. 

I suppose you mean "does not depend on -meta", right?

> That 
> will never happen, so you should get over it. Bug 159470 explains why 
> it's not a good idea to depend on -base either, so now you get to issue 
> one more emerge by yourself. 

Actually, it doesn't. Comment #3 from Jakub doesn't apply. I totally
agree with Jakub, that it might have been a bad idea to have something
like

  mad? ( =media-plugins/gst-plugins-mad-0.10* )

in the totem ebuild. That sucks. Nobody wants that back.

I seem to be missing something - what happens, if rb would
depend on gst-plugins-meta? Suppose USE=alsa is set. Then if
"emerge rhythmbox" would be done, gst-plugins-meta and 
gst-plugins-alsa would be emerged. Then the user thinks that
dvb is a good idea and adds "dvb" to his make.conf file.
If he'd recompile gst-plugins-meta, he'd also get gst-plugins-dvb
installed. Would rb then need to be recompiled, in the point
of view of emerge?

Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Gnome: No sound - "No volume control GStreamer plugins and/or devices found"

[Albert Hopkins]

On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 16:56 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> There's a damn good reason why rhythmbox does does depend on -meta.
> That will never happen, so you should get over it. 

The GNOME 2.22 versions of Rhythmbox and Sound Juicer depend on
gst-plugins-meta.

So you should get over it.

--a


-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: Gnome: No sound - "No volume control GStreamer plugins and/or devices found"

[Michael Schmarck]

Albert Hopkins <marduk <at> letterboxes.org> writes:

> The GNOME 2.22 versions of Rhythmbox and Sound Juicer depend on
> gst-plugins-meta.

Great to hear!

> So you should get over it.

I will. I "don't care" much about the 2.20 version then. They'll
be history soon anyway.

Cheers,
Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Hal Martin]

Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> Now, onto your actual problem. It is exceptionally hard to even attempt
>> to provide a solution unless someone else fixed the exact same problem
>> before, as you have not provided any configuration at all and very
>> little useful information.
>>     
>
> What would you have wanted to see? I wrote that sound works. You
> don't need more information.
>
>   
>> Hence your post was as much noise as mine 
>> was. 
>>     
>
> That's why other people, or at least Andrey, was able to help, where as
> you were just a moron.
>   
Not to dig up this unpleasantness again, but there are some things I'd
like to point out for future reference (for all people, including me,
who will post questions with hopes of getting useful answers.)
>   
>> Nonetheless I shall try, so please provide the following: 
>>     
>
> How nice from you, now that the problem has been solved.
>   
Yes, I'm aware that this particular problem has been solved, however I'd
still like to highlight a few things about it.
>   
>> 1. the output of lspci as it relates to audio so we can see what
>> hardware you have
>>     
>
> Why should that matter? After all, sound playback works (in other
> programs).
>   
It doesn't matter, but it's information people care about. It helps us
to do our voodoo stuff and get back to you with an answer (it's quantity
over quality at this point of the answering stage.)
>   
>> 2. What engine does rhythmbox use? gstreamer? If so, do other gstreamer
>> apps work correctly on your box?
>>     
>
> That was the million dollar question.
>   
Great, and now you've noticed that Totem, another GStreamer program,
isn't outputting sound. Therefore, instead of just blowing off the
previous poster, you could actually include that information.
>   
>> 3. With what options did you compile rhythmbox and gstreamer (if
>> applicable)?
>>     
>
> Does not matter.
>   
Actually, it does. Contrary to your belief that programs have the
ability to read your mind and compile with all the flags they need to
function in every foreseeable way, real world applications need flags.
Posting them with your question allows for the quantity of answers to go
down, while the quality of the remaining ones to improve greatly.
Knowing from the beginning that you compiled GStreamer with -oss but not
alsa would've helped greatly.
>   
>> 4. Lastly, this is out on left field, please confirm that rhythmbox is
>> indeed using alsa and not oss
>>     
>
> Question 2 covers that.
>   
No, it doesn't. You just deferred your answer instead of actually
confirming that the rhythmbox *engine* used either ALSA or OSS.
> Michael
>
>   
Not trying to start a flame war between anywhere here, but I'm just
trying to make a point. Posting information, no matter how useless it
may seem to you, helps us help you. For example,

"Hey group! My mplayer doesn't play sound! I get some generic error
about the sound card not being available..."

Now, there are so many answers to that, and you will be frustrated
because people will start touting their favourite software with things
like, "Mplayer sucks, use Songbird" "Songbird sucks, it's bloated, use
Rhythmbox!" "Rhythmbox is buggy, use Amarok!" "Amarok is KDE based, I
hate KDE and everything that's based on it, Gnome rules!"

Then the slightly more useful questions start, "Well, was mplayer
compiled with the alsa USE flag?" "Do other applications play sound?"
Etc, etc.

However, if you'd posted the original error along with your system
information, we forgo all the unpleasant favouritism and instead, get
strained answers that will actually help you solve the problem, keeping
all parties [hopefully] happy!

"Hey group! My mplayer doesn't play sound?

Here's my USE flags:"xft xcomposite threads dbus libfreetype freetype
firefox xulrunner dvdread lfreetype ftgl gtk X glx usb mplayer a52 hwac3
ac3 ldap GPAC gpac x264 mp4 mp3 mad madplay libmp3 ogg flac alsa oss png
jpg jpeg selinux hal ffmpeg encode vorbis chroot opengl mysql tiff gnome
kde 3dnow 3dnowext aac encode gif ftp mp2 v4l v4l2 httpd sdl sdl-image
xvid xv cvidix -rdynamic -zlib"

Here's the output of 'mplayer awesomemusic.mp3'
MPlayer dev-SVN-rUNKNOWN-4.1.2 (C) 2000-2007 MPlayer Team
CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 3800+ (Family: 15, Model:
43, Stepping: 1)
CPUflags:  MMX: 1 MMX2: 1 3DNow: 1 3DNow2: 1 SSE: 1 SSE2: 1
Compiled for x86 CPU with extensions: MMX MMX2 3DNow 3DNowEx SSE SSE2

Playing Justin Timberlake - What Goes Around.mp3.
Audio file file format detected.
Clip info:
 Title: The awesomeness!
 Artist: Awesome band!
 Album: AWESOME!
 Year: 2008
 Comment:
 Track:
 Genre:
==========================================================================
Opening audio decoder: [mp3lib] MPEG layer-2, layer-3
AUDIO: 44100 Hz, 2 ch, s16le, 192.0 kbit/13.61% (ratio: 24000->176400)
Selected audio codec: [mp3] afm: mp3lib (mp3lib MPEG layer-2, layer-3)
==========================================================================
[AO OSS] audio_setup: Can't open audio device /dev/dsp: Device or
resource busy
[AO_ALSA] alsa-lib: pcm_dmix.c:864:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to open slave
[AO_ALSA] Playback open error: Device or resource busy
[AO SDL] Samplerate: 44100Hz Channels: Stereo Format s16le
[AO_ALSA] alsa-lib: pcm_dmix.c:864:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to open slave
[AO SDL] Unable to open audio: No available audio device
AO: [null] 44100Hz 2ch s16le (2 bytes per sample)
Video: no video
Starting playback...
A:   3.5 (03.5) of 448.0 (07:28.0)  1.0%

MPlayer interrupted by signal 2 in module: play_audio

Thanks!"

Oh look, we have the program version, we know what it was built with,
and we have the exact output from the program regarding the error. In
this case, the answer is that I played one track with mplayer and then
attempted to play another (knowing what would happen) and then went
about posting the output for your benefit.

Again, not trying to restart any disagreements previously stemming from
this topic, I'm just trying to establish a clear method for reporting
problems so that we cut out all the "guess work" on the part of the
person answering the question.

-Hal
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Stroller]

On 28 Mar 2008, at 22:01, Hal Martin wrote:
> Michael Schmarck wrote:
>> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Now, onto your actual problem. It is exceptionally hard to even  
>>> attempt
>>> to provide a solution unless someone else fixed the exact same  
>>> problem
>>> before, as you have not provided any configuration at all and very
>>> little useful information.
>>
>> What would you have wanted to see? I wrote that sound works. You
>> don't need more information.
>>
>>> Hence your post was as much noise as mine
>>> was.
>>
>> That's why other people, or at least Andrey, was able to help,  
>> where as
>> you were just a moron.
>
> Not to dig up this unpleasantness again, but there are some things I'd
> like to point out for future reference (for all people, including me,
> who will post questions with hopes of getting useful answers.)
...
> Great, and now you've noticed that Totem, another GStreamer program,
> isn't outputting sound. Therefore, instead of just blowing off the

> previous poster, you could actually include that information.

Hi there,

I, too, thought about saying something like this at the time. I'm  
glad you have done so and I agree with all your points.



Michael:

Alan's reply was harmless. You're not entitled to pick on him unless  
you posted correctly in the first place.

You're asking for help - provide as much information as possible and  
please don't antagonise people (especially because they may be able  
to help you!).

If you want help then it's YOUR responsibility to provide as much  
information as possible. Help people to help you, and make it easy  
for them to do so. Providing a dearth of information requires  
respondents to type more, making suggestions which accommodate all  
the possibilities which you've failed to eliminate.

Oftentimes, just making the effort to demonstrate your problem  
correctly - for example showing permissions with `ls -l /dev/audio`  
and `grep audio /etc/group` - will show you the problem lies. You'll  
slap your forehead, curse yourself, take a little pride in having  
solved the problem yourself, learn something, and save you troubling  
others with your problem.

Othertimes making a post can take hours, compiling relevant  
information from a terminal window. But I speak from experience when  
I tell you that this may provoke a very quick response which  
immediately diagnoses your problem and provides a resolution that can  
be applied in minutes.


I, too, know what it's like to receive a reply to one of my questions  
which I find to be unhelpful and aggravating. However, "two wrongs  
don't make a right" and no-one benefits from an angry response.

Stroller.
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Michael Schmarck]

Hal Martin <hal.martin <at> gmail.com> writes:

> 
> Michael Schmarck wrote:
> > Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >   
> >> Now, onto your actual problem. It is exceptionally hard to even attempt
> >> to provide a solution unless someone else fixed the exact same problem
> >> before, as you have not provided any configuration at all and very
> >> little useful information.
> >>     
> >
> > What would you have wanted to see? I wrote that sound works. You
> > don't need more information.
> >
> >   
> >> Hence your post was as much noise as mine 
> >> was. 
> >>     
> >
> > That's why other people, or at least Andrey, was able to help, where as
> > you were just a moron.
> >   
> Not to dig up this unpleasantness again, but there are some things I'd
> like to point out for future reference (for all people, including me,
> who will post questions with hopes of getting useful answers.)
> >   
> >> Nonetheless I shall try, so please provide the following: 
> >>     
> >
> > How nice from you, now that the problem has been solved.
> >   
> Yes, I'm aware that this particular problem has been solved, however I'd
> still like to highlight a few things about it.
> >   
> >> 1. the output of lspci as it relates to audio so we can see what
> >> hardware you have
> >>     
> >
> > Why should that matter? After all, sound playback works (in other
> > programs).
> >   
> It doesn't matter, but it's information people care about. 

Fine. Do you also care about the size of my shoes? It's a german
46 - and yes, I *do* think, that it is just as important. :)

> It helps us
> to do our voodoo stuff and get back to you with an answer (it's quantity
> over quality at this point of the answering stage.)
> >   
> >> 2. What engine does rhythmbox use? gstreamer? If so, do other gstreamer
> >> apps work correctly on your box?
> >>     
> >
> > That was the million dollar question.
> >   
> Great, and now you've noticed that Totem, another GStreamer program,
> isn't outputting sound. Therefore, instead of just blowing off the
> previous poster, you could actually include that information.

You mean Alan? He hasn't been helpful at all. I don't see, why such
people should not be blown off.

First he tried to be "funny" with his snide KDE remark. Then he
wrote non-helpful (and as it turned out: wrong) comments about
some non-existant circular dependencies. And he also failed to
correctly read the gst-plugins-meta ebuild. No, he was not helpful
at all.

> >   
> >> 3. With what options did you compile rhythmbox and gstreamer (if
> >> applicable)?
> >>     
> >
> > Does not matter.
> >   
> Actually, it does.

No, it does not. It doesn't have any USE flags that would matter
there.

Anyway, it's been compiled with these flags:

[ebuild   R   ] media-sound/rhythmbox-0.11.2-r1  USE="-daap dbus -debug -doc 
-flac hal -ipod -keyring libnotify -lirc mad -musicbrainz python tagwriting 
vorbis" 3,454 kB 

No, there's no important information. As I said, rb was able to play
the file. There just wasn't any sound.

> Contrary to your belief that programs have the
> ability to read your mind 

Just don't assume that I'm doing that, just because you're so naive.

> and compile with all the flags they need to
> function in every foreseeable way, real world applications need flags.

Oh, really? Tell news! But you know what, rb doesn't need any additional
flags. And you already knew that.

> Posting them with your question allows for the quantity of answers to go
> down, while the quality of the remaining ones to improve greatly.
> Knowing from the beginning that you compiled GStreamer with -oss but not
> alsa would've helped greatly.

What? I have alsa set. And -oss. But this information was not necessary,
because the problem was caused by the "bug" that rb used to depend on
gst-plugins-base and that -base used to have alsa/oss/what-not use flags.
That's no longer the case. Instead applications now need to depend on
gst-plugins-meta - and that's the case with rhythmbox of Gnome 2.22.

> >> 4. Lastly, this is out on left field, please confirm that rhythmbox is
> >> indeed using alsa and not oss
> >>     
> >
> > Question 2 covers that.
> >   
> No, it doesn't.

Yes, it does.

> You just deferred your answer instead of actually
> confirming that the rhythmbox *engine* used either ALSA or OSS.

Because it doesn't matter. rb uses gst. gst may use either engine.
No engine was installed. Reason: Missing dependencies (but that's
rectified in rhythmbox 2.22, per what Marduk wrote).

> > Michael
> >
> >   
> Not trying to start a flame war between anywhere here, but I'm just
> trying to make a point. Posting information, no matter how useless it
> may seem to you, helps us help you. For example,

No, that's not good. Only relevant information should be posted.
It's no good to "flood" people (or "supporters") with unrelated
and not important information. Instead, it's good to only send 
important information.

> Again, not trying to restart any disagreements previously stemming from
> this topic, I'm just trying to establish a clear method for reporting
> problems so that we cut out all the "guess work" on the part of the
> person answering the question.

I posted all the relevant information. So I really don't see what
you're trying to get at. And as it turned out, the problem I reported
was just because I did not have gst-plugins-alsa (or -oss) installed,
which was because gst-plugins-base no longer installs that. I indicated
that I'm using ~x86, so you knew what versions I'm using (the latest,
of course - if not, I would've of course said so).

Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Michael Schmarck]

Stroller <stroller <at> stellar.eclipse.co.uk> writes:


> Hi there,
> 
> I, too, thought about saying something like this at the time. I'm  
> glad you have done so and I agree with all your points.

I don't. I disagree with his most important point: It's no good
to post as much information as possible. Instead, the amount of
information posted should be "condensed" to only the important
pieces.

> Michael:
> 
> Alan's reply was harmless. You're not entitled to pick on him unless  
> you posted correctly in the first place.

So, I *am* entitled. Thanks!

> You're asking for help - provide as much information as possible and  
> please don't antagonise people (especially because they may be able  
> to help you!).

Now, please go back and read Alans first post in the thread. It
absolutely did not sound, as if he even wanted to help.

> If you want help then it's YOUR responsibility to provide as much  
> information as possible. 

Well, no, not as possible, but rather "as required". And that's been
done.

> Help people to help you, and make it easy  
> for them to do so.

Yes. That's been done. Once more: The problem was, because rhythmbox
of Gnome 2.20 is missing an (indirect) dependency on gst-plugins-alsa.
That's fixed in 2.22.

> I, too, know what it's like to receive a reply to one of my questions  
> which I find to be unhelpful and aggravating. However, "two wrongs  
> don't make a right" and no-one benefits from an angry response.

Oh, so it's now my fault for responding to a flamebait? Nice. It's
not the aggressor who's doing something wrong?

Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 29 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> > I, too, know what it's like to receive a reply to one of my
> > questions   which I find to be unhelpful and aggravating. However,
> > "two wrongs don't make a right" and no-one benefits from an angry
> > response.
>
> Oh, so it's now my fault for responding to a flamebait? Nice. It's
> not the aggressor who's doing something wrong?

I started this, so I guess I have the right to make the following 
request:

Can we drop this sub-thread now, please?

Michael, I don't see how you could read my original post as flamebait. 
You were not supposed to respond, I did not intend you to take offence 
and it was a harmless joke. Where I come from it's a self-deprecating 
in-joke and it goes like this:

Q: Hmmm, app xyz is broken. What could be wrong?
A: It's software. Come now, you really didn't expect it to work did you? 

You have every right in the world to take away from this thread whatever 
you want, and I have now explained publicly what I meant. If we still 
disagree, then that's 100% fine by me but I think we should get this 
out of these other fine folk's inbox.

You have an answer and a solution that appears to suit you. That's a 
good point to end this at.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

--
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Stroller]

On 29 Mar 2008, at 20:39, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Stroller <stroller <at> stellar.eclipse.co.uk> writes:
>
>> I, too, thought about saying something like this at the time. I'm
>> glad you have done so and I agree with all your points.
>
> I don't. I disagree with his most important point...

Yes, but you're demonstrating yourself to be a clueless idiot.

>> Alan's reply was harmless. You're not entitled to pick on him unless
>> you posted correctly in the first place.
>
> So, I *am* entitled. Thanks!

No, you're not.

>> You're asking for help - provide as much information as possible and
>> please don't antagonise people (especially because they may be able
>> to help you!).
>
> Now, please go back and read Alans first post in the thread. It
> absolutely did not sound, as if he even wanted to help.

That doesn't matter. Please don't antagonise people, full-stop.

>> I, too, know what it's like to receive a reply to one of my questions
>> which I find to be unhelpful and aggravating. However, "two wrongs
>> don't make a right" and no-one benefits from an angry response.
>
> Oh, so it's now my fault for responding to a flamebait? Nice. It's
> not the aggressor who's doing something wrong?

It was NOT flamebait. It was HARMLESS.

Grown up!

Stroller.
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Michael Schmarck]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon <at> gmail.com> writes:

> 
> On Saturday 29 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> > > I, too, know what it's like to receive a reply to one of my
> > > questions   which I find to be unhelpful and aggravating. However,
> > > "two wrongs don't make a right" and no-one benefits from an angry
> > > response.
> >
> > Oh, so it's now my fault for responding to a flamebait? Nice. It's
> > not the aggressor who's doing something wrong?
> 
> I started this, so I guess I have the right to make the following 
> request:
> 
> Can we drop this sub-thread now, please?
> 
> Michael, I don't see how you could read my original post as flamebait. 

You don't see, how your KDE comment can be seen as a flamebait? Well,
too bad.

> You were not supposed to respond,

You were not supposed to post such a comment in the first place.

> I did not intend you to take offence 
> and it was a harmless joke.

If it was indeed supposed to be a joke, then it was a very bad
one, especially as it was not visibile as a joke.

> You have an answer and a solution that appears to suit you.

Not just me. As it turned out, the problem I had was due to a 
bug in the Gentoo rhythmbox-"2.20" package. It lacked proper
dependencies. That is fixed in 2.22. Everything is fine.

> That's a 
> good point to end this at.

Yes. 

Michael



-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Michael Schmarck]

Stroller <stroller <at> stellar.eclipse.co.uk> writes:

> On 29 Mar 2008, at 20:39, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> > Stroller <stroller <at> stellar.eclipse.co.uk> writes:
> >
> >> I, too, thought about saying something like this at the time. I'm
> >> glad you have done so and I agree with all your points.
> >
> > I don't. I disagree with his most important point...
> 
> Yes, but you're demonstrating yourself to be a clueless idiot.

And why's that? As shown, the problems were due to the way the
rhythmbox (or totem) package was built. I'm now an idiot because
I've been biten by such a bug? And in how far am I clueless? Just
because you see things differently then I do?

> >> Alan's reply was harmless. You're not entitled to pick on him unless
> >> you posted correctly in the first place.
> >
> > So, I *am* entitled. Thanks!
> 
> No, you're not.

But you said, that I am. Could you please stop changing your mind?

> >> You're asking for help - provide as much information as possible and
> >> please don't antagonise people (especially because they may be able
> >> to help you!).
> >
> > Now, please go back and read Alans first post in the thread. It
> > absolutely did not sound, as if he even wanted to help.
> 
> That doesn't matter. Please don't antagonise people, full-stop.

Yes, it absouletly does matter. It makes all of a difference.

> >> I, too, know what it's like to receive a reply to one of my questions
> >> which I find to be unhelpful and aggravating. However, "two wrongs
> >> don't make a right" and no-one benefits from an angry response.
> >
> > Oh, so it's now my fault for responding to a flamebait? Nice. It's
> > not the aggressor who's doing something wrong?
> 
> It was NOT flamebait.

It was. Even if it maybe was not the intention. And you can see that
it was, if you have a look at the subthread.

> It was HARMLESS.

Yes.

In your world, an aggressor is doing nothing wrong? Do I understand
that right?

Well, that's something were we seem to disagree.

> Grown up!

Get real.

Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 911 bytes --]

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:39:07 +0000 (UTC), Michael Schmarck wrote:

> I don't. I disagree with his most important point: It's no good
> to post as much information as possible. Instead, the amount of
> information posted should be "condensed" to only the important
> pieces.

You have a problem to which you do not know the solution, so how are you
supposed to know what is important and what is not? The answer is, you
don't, because not knowing the solution means you cannot know for sure
what is relevant and what is not, so err on the side of verbosity.

Of course, none of this really matters as people will be hesitant to
offer any advice in future, no matter how complete your post, because you
have demonstrated a complete lack of civility and respect for those that
you expect to help you.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WinErr 01E: Timing error - Please wait. And wait. And wait. And wait.

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 473 bytes --]

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 05:34:38 +0000 (UTC), Michael Schmarck wrote:

> You were not supposed to post such a comment in the first place.

Who dictates that? There is no list moderation except the self-moderation
of the users, an none of them have objected to light-hearted comments by
Alan, or other, in the past. If you don't like a reply, ignore it like an
adult.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Electrocution, n.:
Burning at the stake with all the modern improvements.

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]

[gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Michael Schmarck]

Neil Bothwick <neil <at> digimed.co.uk> writes:

> 
> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 05:34:38 +0000 (UTC), Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
> > You were not supposed to post such a comment in the first place.
> 
> Who dictates that?

I don't know. Ask Alan, as he tries to dictate which post are 
allowed and which not.


Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Michael Schmarck]

Neil Bothwick <neil <at> digimed.co.uk> writes:

> 
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:39:07 +0000 (UTC), Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
> > I don't. I disagree with his most important point: It's no good
> > to post as much information as possible. Instead, the amount of
> > information posted should be "condensed" to only the important
> > pieces.
> 
> You have a problem to which you do not know the solution, so how are you
> supposed to know what is important and what is not?

As it seems, I knew what was not important. Just have a look at the
real root cause of the problem.

> Of course, none of this really matters as people will be hesitant to
> offer any advice in future, no matter how complete your post, because you
> have demonstrated a complete lack of civility and respect for those that
> you expect to help you.

Oh, that's wrong. Alan very much demonstrated that he did not want to
help. Why else would he have posted his snide comment? And if you look
carefully, you'll see that I even treated him respectfully, when he tried
to be helpful. Care to point out where I showed a "complete lack of civilty"?
And care to point out the civilty in what Alan posted in his (maybe
unintended) flamebait?

Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1505 bytes --]

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:39:09 +0000 (UTC), Michael Schmarck wrote:

> > You have a problem to which you do not know the solution, so how are
> > you supposed to know what is important and what is not?  
> 
> As it seems, I knew what was not important. Just have a look at the
> real root cause of the problem.

Isn't hindsight wonderful? You now know what is relevant to the solution
of a problem you did not understand at the time.

> > Of course, none of this really matters as people will be hesitant to
> > offer any advice in future, no matter how complete your post, because
> > you have demonstrated a complete lack of civility and respect for
> > those that you expect to help you.  
> 
> Oh, that's wrong. Alan very much demonstrated that he did not want to
> help. Why else would he have posted his snide comment? And if you look
> carefully, you'll see that I even treated him respectfully, when he
> tried to be helpful. Care to point out where I showed a "complete lack
> of civilty"? And care to point out the civilty in what Alan posted in
> his (maybe unintended) flamebait?

This has nothing to do with Alan, (who, incidentally, has demonstrated
his knowledge and willingness to help many times over) ad everything to
do with your attitude. So you found his post unhelpful, well get over it.
Either ignore the post or respond by expressing your views without insult.

You have done yourself no favours.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

RISC: Reduced Into Silly Code

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Stroller]

On 30 Mar 2008, at 06:47, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> ...
> In your world, an aggressor is doing nothing wrong? Do I understand
> that right?
> ...
> Get real.

When you're describing someone who has annoyed you on the Internet as  
an "aggressor" it probably means you need to take a break for a while  
(and, indeed, get yourself "real").

Stroller.
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 331 bytes --]

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:32:47 +0100, Stroller wrote:

> When you're describing someone who has annoyed you on the Internet as  
> an "aggressor" it probably means you need to take a break for a while  

RFC 1: Count to ten before hitting send.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Politics: Poli (many) - tics (blood sucking parasites)

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]

[gentoo-user] Re: Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Michael Schmarck]

Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:

> 
> On 30 Mar 2008, at 06:47, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>> ...
>> In your world, an aggressor is doing nothing wrong? Do I understand
>> that right?
>> ...
>> Get real.
> 
> When you're describing someone who has annoyed you on the Internet as
> an "aggressor" it probably means you need to take a break for a while

How else would you describe Alan in his first post in the thread?
Troll? Would that fit better?

Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Michael Schmarck]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:39:09 +0000 (UTC), Michael Schmarck wrote:
> 
>> > You have a problem to which you do not know the solution, so how are
>> > you supposed to know what is important and what is not?
>> 
>> As it seems, I knew what was not important. Just have a look at the
>> real root cause of the problem.
> 
> Isn't hindsight wonderful? You now know what is relevant to the solution
> of a problem you did not understand at the time.

That's one way to view this. Another way to view this, would be
that I had good knowledge of the problem and only posted what
really was needed.

>> > Of course, none of this really matters as people will be hesitant to
>> > offer any advice in future, no matter how complete your post, because
>> > you have demonstrated a complete lack of civility and respect for
>> > those that you expect to help you.
>> 
>> Oh, that's wrong. Alan very much demonstrated that he did not want to
>> help. Why else would he have posted his snide comment? And if you look
>> carefully, you'll see that I even treated him respectfully, when he
>> tried to be helpful. Care to point out where I showed a "complete lack
>> of civilty"? And care to point out the civilty in what Alan posted in
>> his (maybe unintended) flamebait?
> 
> This has nothing to do with Alan,

Oh, no? It wasn't Alan who started this "flame" sub-thread? I guess I
must be reading a different thread then. Just to make that clear -
I'm *NOT* talking about the subthread titled "Gnome: No sound - "No 
volume control GStreamer plugins and/or devices found"".

> (who, incidentally, has demonstrated 
> his knowledge and willingness to help many times over) 

No argument there. So you think that this is an excuse for something?

> ad everything to 
> do with your attitude. 

My attitude? Well, maybe. But I rather think it has everything
to do with Alan, who made a bad comment. It (maybe) was my mistake
to respond to the troll. Let's not confuse things here, please.
It was NOT me who started the fight. If Alan would not have posted
what's in <200803252159.41035.alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>, there would
be no argument at all. 

Reg. my attitude: You're saying that it's no good from me, when
I treat people respectfully, just like I treated Alan in the other
"half" of the thread? I should not have done this?  Guess I've got
to learn something here - I'll try to change that in the future.

> So you found his post unhelpful, 

You disagree? You think that he was helpful with his KDE comment?

> well get over it.  

I am.

> Either ignore the post

That's a bit late now, isn't it?

> or respond by expressing your views without insult. 
> 
> You have done yourself no favours.
> 
> 

-- 
Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[ionut cucu]

(gramps:) I remember the good old days when a good clean old-fashioned
fight to the death would sort these things out, and the winner would be
right. Now we have reasoning, such a bore.
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Alan McKinnon]

On Monday 31 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 30 Mar 2008, at 06:47, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> >> ...
> >> In your world, an aggressor is doing nothing wrong? Do I
> >> understand that right?
> >> ...
> >> Get real.
> >
> > When you're describing someone who has annoyed you on the Internet
> > as an "aggressor" it probably means you need to take a break for a
> > while
>
> How else would you describe Alan in his first post in the thread?
> Troll? Would that fit better?

I prefer "class clown". Seeing as it was me that said it, that being the 
class clown is exactly what I was doing and I'm the only person who can 
see inside my head, I think I'll stick with my own conclusions on this 
point - they seem to be way more reliable than, say, your opinion about 
what might be in my head.



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Alan McKinnon]

On Monday 31 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> So you found his post unhelpful,
>
> You disagree? You think that he was helpful with his KDE comment?

I would be very surprised if he thought it was helpful. It wasn't 
written to be helpful. It was written to provoke a giggle, or perhaps 
nothing at all.

Your reaction was completely unexpected though and quite funny. You are 
getting so uptight about this, and appear so offended by it all, and so 
sure of your own rightness, and so utterly unable to respond to a 
single one of my posts where I say clearly what I intended, that you 
have set yourself up for a right royal piss-take. So here goes:

Michael, I know this dude who's selling senses of humour at rock bottom 
bargain prices, you interested?

on second thoughts, /me wonders if I might not be in Michael's killfile 
by now...

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Jan Seeger]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 321 bytes --]

On Mon, 31. Mar, ionut cucu spammed my inbox with 
> (gramps:) I remember the good old days when a good clean old-fashioned
> fight to the death would sort these things out, and the winner would be
> right. Now we have reasoning, such a bore.

Good one. I lol'ed^^

-- 
thenybble.de/blog/ -- four bits at a time

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Uwe Thiem]

On Monday 31 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 30 Mar 2008, at 06:47, Michael Schmarck wrote:
> >> ...
> >> In your world, an aggressor is doing nothing wrong? Do I
> >> understand that right?
> >> ...
> >> Get real.
> >
> > When you're describing someone who has annoyed you on the
> > Internet as an "aggressor" it probably means you need to take a
> > break for a while
>
> How else would you describe Alan in his first post in the thread?
> Troll? Would that fit better?

Hello, people! Calm down, will you?

Michael, if you scan past posts by Alan, you will find out that he is 
full of jokes - good ones and some not so good. He is neither aan 
aggressor, nor a troll. Just full of - sometimes weird - humour. 

He was pulling your leg; that's different from trolling.

Now, please put this to rest and get real again. ;-)

Uwe

-- 
Informal Linux Group Namibia:
http://www.linux.org.na/
SysEx (Pty) Ltd.:
http://www.SysEx.com.na/
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Willie Wong]

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 01:32:05PM +0200, Penguin Lover Alan McKinnon squawked:
> on second thoughts, /me wonders if I might not be in Michael's killfile 
> by now...
> 

That schmuck is already in my kill-file. 

But please, can we let this thread die? Must we all lower ourselves to
the level of someone who can't take a joke? 

Lastly, for those who are still willing to take a clue: here's
one of those few things from ESR that I truly agree with, 
  http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Pay attention to "Be precise and informative about your problem"
and "Volume is not precision".

Regards, 

W
-- 
	In the well-known story of the Emperor
	and his new clothes, the plot hinges on
	the fact that no one dared tell him he
	was unsuited for his position!
Sortir en Pantoufles: up 479 days, 12:32
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[darren kirby]

quoth the Michael Schmarck:

> My attitude? Well, maybe. But I rather think it has everything
> to do with Alan, who made a bad comment. 

Have you not noticed that you are the _only_ person upset by Alan's post? Why 
don't you think about that for a bit.... 

> It was NOT me who started the fight.

It most certainly was. Alan sent an admittedly useless post, but tempered with 
a bit of humour. YOU missed the joke and started the fight by calling Alan a 
fool and an agressor which are both ad hominem attacks. YOU chose to respond 
instead of ignoring it as you should of. Now intead of one useless message to 
this thread we have 30. Good work buddy!

> PS: Does anyone know if Gmane features a troll filter?

Dunno, but my kmail now has a  Michael Schmarck filter.

-d
-- 
darren kirby :: Part of the problem since 1976 :: http://badcomputer.org
"...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected..."
- Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972
-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Michael Schmarck]

darren kirby <bulliver@badcomputer.org> wrote:

> quoth the Michael Schmarck:
> 
>> My attitude? Well, maybe. But I rather think it has everything
>> to do with Alan, who made a bad comment.
> 
> Have you not noticed that you are the _only_ person upset by Alan's post?

Yes, I have.

> Why don't you think about that for a bit....

I did. Result: Noone else cared, because it was a direct response
to one of my posts.

>> It was NOT me who started the fight.
> 
> It most certainly was.

Oh, yeah? Remember, it wasn't me who started the fight. It was 
started by Alan, who posted the KDE comment.

> to respond instead of ignoring it as you should of. Now intead of one
> useless message to this thread we have 30. Good work buddy!

Not my fault. Blame the one who started all that.

Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Michael Schmarck]

Uwe Thiem <uwix@iway.na> wrote:

> On Monday 31 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>> Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>> > On 30 Mar 2008, at 06:47, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>> >> ...
>> >> In your world, an aggressor is doing nothing wrong? Do I
>> >> understand that right?
>> >> ...
>> >> Get real.
>> >
>> > When you're describing someone who has annoyed you on the
>> > Internet as an "aggressor" it probably means you need to take a
>> > break for a while
>>
>> How else would you describe Alan in his first post in the thread?
>> Troll? Would that fit better?
> 
> Hello, people! Calm down, will you?

No problem. But if people "provoke" a reaction, I've got to "defend"
myself and my position.

> Michael, if you scan past posts by Alan, you will find out that he is
> full of jokes - good ones and some not so good. He is neither aan

Here he certainly made one of the "not so good ones".

> aggressor, nor a troll. Just full of - sometimes weird - humour.

Agreed.

> He was pulling your leg; that's different from trolling.

Yes, it is. But here you're saying it as well. *HE* was doing
something, which provoked some sort of reaction. Maybe my reaction
was not what he wanted go get (that's what he's saying at least
and it's also what I believe to be true). But, you know, if
he wouldn't have done what he did, we wouldn't have this mess.

To a certain degree, this mess may also be my fault, but it's
absolutely not only my fault. Alan is at least as "guilty" as I am.

You're right though - "aggressor" and/or "troll" aren't the right
words. Couldn't and still can't think of better ones though.

Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: rhythmbox plays silently

[Michael Schmarck]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday 31 March 2008, Michael Schmarck wrote:
>> So you found his post unhelpful,
>>
>> You disagree? You think that he was helpful with his KDE comment?
> 
> I would be very surprised if he thought it was helpful. It wasn't
> written to be helpful. It was written to provoke a giggle, or perhaps
> nothing at all.

You for sure provoked /something/, didn't you? :)

> Your reaction was completely unexpected though and quite funny.

Glad to hear that.

> You are 
> getting so uptight about this, and appear so offended by it all, and so

Actually I'm not at all offended by it. If people just wouldn't
bother about this issue anymore, I'd be happy.

> sure of your own rightness, 

Well. Yes. I posted a harmless question with the needed amount
of details. And I responded in an appropriate way to your post
in this subthread.

I certainly do think, that it's not just my fault. To a degree,
it is, yes. But not completely.

> and so utterly unable to respond to a 
> single one of my posts where I say clearly what I intended, that you
> have set yourself up for a right royal piss-take. So here goes:
> 
> Michael, I know this dude who's selling senses of humour at rock bottom
> bargain prices, you interested?

Where's that guy located? If it's not too far away, I might stop
by and see what he's got to offer in detail.

> on second thoughts, /me wonders if I might not be in Michael's killfile
> by now...

Why should you? You've shown that you can be helpful, and just 
because of one (unintended, as you said) flame bait, you haven't
yet "earned" a position in my killfile.

Michael

-- 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list