[gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Enrico Weigelt]

Hi folks,


I'd just want to let you know there's an petition to NV on 
opening their driver code (or at least specs) to the free world:

* http://www.petitiononline.com/nvfoss/

Please sign the petition and spread around this link.

cu 
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
 	http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce
 Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
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Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Montag, 31. Dezember 2007, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
>
> I'd just want to let you know there's an petition to NV on
> opening their driver code (or at least specs) to the free world:
>
> * http://www.petitiononline.com/nvfoss/

no, 'online petitions' are a worthless waste of time. They are like a fart in 
the wind - just worse. They are like farting and then tell everybody that you 
have farted. You are just angry that your beloved, but maybe crappy hardware 
does not work with a driver that is pretty old by now.

>
> Please sign the petition and spread around this link.

Please don't spam.
-- 
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{Spam?} Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Neil Walker]

Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:
> no, 'online petitions' are a worthless waste of time.

Not true. Here is just one recent example:

http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page13090.asp



Be lucky,

Neil



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This message has been scanned for viruses and
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Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:51:36 +0100
"Hemmann, Volker Armin" <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:

> On Montag, 31. Dezember 2007, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> >
> > I'd just want to let you know there's an petition to NV on
> > opening their driver code (or at least specs) to the free world:
> >
> > * http://www.petitiononline.com/nvfoss/
> 
> no, 'online petitions' are a worthless waste of time. They are like a fart in 
> the wind - just worse. They are like farting and then tell everybody that you 
> have farted. You are just angry that your beloved, but maybe crappy hardware 
> does not work with a driver that is pretty old by now.

Not true. It is true that a petition by itself will not do anything,
but it serves another purposes. Any joining effort demonstrates that
people actually care about a problem. And, by the way, if you fart,
the less you can do is to be honest, and not blame anyone else while
you are the only guilty.

This is not about old or new hardware, this is about getting a free
driver, and that, as linux users, is something that would benefit
everyone in this list. You don't seem to understand what this is
about at all.

> >
> > Please sign the petition and spread around this link.
> 
> Please don't spam.

We could argue if this topic is valid for the list or not, that is
debatable, but everything you wrote above this last sentence is pure
spam. Far more spammy than the post of the original poster. And, in
turn, you generated a need for additional responses, like the one from
Neil Walker and this one that I am writing right now.

Thing that could have been avoided if you just posted something in
the lines of "Isn't this offtopic?", and nothing more.

Regards.
-- 
Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es>
--
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Re: {Spam?} Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Mittwoch, 2. Januar 2008, Neil Walker wrote:
> Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:
> > no, 'online petitions' are a worthless waste of time.
>
> Not true. Here is just one recent example:
>
> http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page13090.asp

completly different things. The BBC is a state funded operation. Nvidia a 
privatly owned company.

And look at the huge piles of petitions nobody cares about. One out of 
hundreds of thousands worked - maybe.
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Mittwoch, 2. Januar 2008, Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:51:36 +0100
>
> "Hemmann, Volker Armin" <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:
> > On Montag, 31. Dezember 2007, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> > > Hi folks,
> > >
> > >
> > > I'd just want to let you know there's an petition to NV on
> > > opening their driver code (or at least specs) to the free world:
> > >
> > > * http://www.petitiononline.com/nvfoss/
> >
> > no, 'online petitions' are a worthless waste of time. They are like a
> > fart in the wind - just worse. They are like farting and then tell
> > everybody that you have farted. You are just angry that your beloved, but
> > maybe crappy hardware does not work with a driver that is pretty old by
> > now.
>
> Not true. It is true that a petition by itself will not do anything,
> but it serves another purposes. Any joining effort demonstrates that
> people actually care about a problem. And, by the way, if you fart,
> the less you can do is to be honest, and not blame anyone else while
> you are the only guilty.

believe me, all the guys constantly whining around on nvnews have shown nvidia 
already that there are people who care about this.

>
> This is not about old or new hardware, this is about getting a free
> driver, and that, as linux users, is something that would benefit
> everyone in this list. You don't seem to understand what this is
> about at all.

it is not about a free driver, it is about a stupid petition. If you want free 
drivers, support nouveau or write a polite letter to nvidia.

>
> > > Please sign the petition and spread around this link.
> >
> > Please don't spam.
>
> We could argue if this topic is valid for the list or not, that is
> debatable, but everything you wrote above this last sentence is pure
> spam. Far more spammy than the post of the original poster. And, in
> turn, you generated a need for additional responses, like the one from
> Neil Walker and this one that I am writing right now.

this topic and the 'support nouveau' has shown up on this list in the past AND 
every linux site out there SEVERAL times. So yes, it is spam. And asking 
people to spam other lists, makes it worse.

>
> Thing that could have been avoided if you just posted something in
> the lines of "Isn't this offtopic?", and nothing more.

Maybe you should have taken your own medicine? Not reacting at all to reduce 
noise? No?


--
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Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:58:53 +0100
"Hemmann, Volker Armin" <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:

> 
> Maybe you should have taken your own medicine? Not reacting at all to reduce 
> noise? No?
> 
> 
> -- 
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
Maybe you are far more rude than me, but you are right in one thing:
I should have never answered to your initial post.

Bye.

-- 
Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es>
--
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RE: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Marzan, Richard non Unisys]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hemmann, Volker Armin [mailto:volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:59 AM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for
> open/free drivers
> 
> On Mittwoch, 2. Januar 2008, Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> > On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:51:36 +0100
> >
> > "Hemmann, Volker Armin" <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:
> > > On Montag, 31. Dezember 2007, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> > > > Hi folks,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'd just want to let you know there's an petition to NV on
> > > > opening their driver code (or at least specs) to the free world:
> > > >
> > > > * http://www.petitiononline.com/nvfoss/
> > >
> > > no, 'online petitions' are a worthless waste of time. They are like a
> > > fart in the wind - just worse. They are like farting and then tell
> > > everybody that you have farted. You are just angry that your beloved,
> but
> > > maybe crappy hardware does not work with a driver that is pretty old
> by
> > > now.
> >
> > Not true. It is true that a petition by itself will not do anything,
> > but it serves another purposes. Any joining effort demonstrates that
> > people actually care about a problem. And, by the way, if you fart,
> > the less you can do is to be honest, and not blame anyone else while
> > you are the only guilty.
> 
> believe me, all the guys constantly whining around on nvnews have shown
> nvidia
> already that there are people who care about this.
> 
> >
> > This is not about old or new hardware, this is about getting a free
> > driver, and that, as linux users, is something that would benefit
> > everyone in this list. You don't seem to understand what this is
> > about at all.
> 
> it is not about a free driver, it is about a stupid petition. If you want
> free
> drivers, support nouveau or write a polite letter to nvidia.
> 
> >
> > > > Please sign the petition and spread around this link.
> > >
> > > Please don't spam.
> >
> > We could argue if this topic is valid for the list or not, that is
> > debatable, but everything you wrote above this last sentence is pure
> > spam. Far more spammy than the post of the original poster. And, in
> > turn, you generated a need for additional responses, like the one from
> > Neil Walker and this one that I am writing right now.
> 
> this topic and the 'support nouveau' has shown up on this list in the past
> AND
> every linux site out there SEVERAL times. So yes, it is spam. And asking
> people to spam other lists, makes it worse.
> 
> >
> > Thing that could have been avoided if you just posted something in
> > the lines of "Isn't this offtopic?", and nothing more.
> 
> Maybe you should have taken your own medicine? Not reacting at all to
> reduce
> noise? No?
> 
> 
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list


Keeping in mind that this petition probably might not work, I think it's a good idea to let Nvidia know how many people are interested in having free drivers. This might lead them to release information on how to write drivers for their hardware. I'm sick of sending polite letters to Nvidia. They are not going to give much thought to individuals sending polite letters. Not many people like to duke it out with corporations on their own -- It is better to do it as a group. Maybe all the "spam" they receive will get them to change their minds about freeing their software or at least specific information of how to write the free drivers. It is they after all that probably have to spend less money on coders if the software goes free.   
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Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 848 bytes --]

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:33:36 -0600, Marzan, Richard non Unisys wrote:

> Keeping in mind that this petition probably might not work, I think
> it's a good idea to let Nvidia know how many people are interested in
> having free drivers. This might lead them to release information on how
> to write drivers for their hardware.

The problem with this is that Nvidia license non-free code for use in
their drivers. They are not allowed to distribute the source, or other
information about the code, so they have two choices for Linux drivers:
release binary drivers or release open drivers with the code removed and
have everyone complain how the Linux drivers are slower or less capable
than the Windows ones.

Damned if they do and damned if they don't :(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Wrappers are futile. Chocolate will be assimilated.

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Graham Murray]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> The problem with this is that Nvidia license non-free code for use in
> their drivers. They are not allowed to distribute the source, or other
> information about the code, so they have two choices for Linux drivers:
> release binary drivers or release open drivers with the code removed and
> have everyone complain how the Linux drivers are slower or less capable
> than the Windows ones.

Choice 3: Release the hardware interface specification so that the Linux
community can write a free 'xorg' driver.
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[gentoo-user] Re: Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Grant Edwards]

On 2008-01-02, Graham Murray <graham@gmurray.org.uk> wrote:
> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:
>
>> The problem with this is that Nvidia license non-free code for use in
>> their drivers. They are not allowed to distribute the source, or other
>> information about the code, so they have two choices for Linux drivers:
>> release binary drivers or release open drivers with the code removed and
>> have everyone complain how the Linux drivers are slower or less capable
>> than the Windows ones.
>
> Choice 3: Release the hardware interface specification so that the Linux
> community can write a free 'xorg' driver.

It's possible that release of some of the hardware interface
information is also restricted by the terms of a license under
which they use IP that they don't own.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow! I have seen these EGG
                                  at               EXTENDERS in my Supermarket
                               visi.com            ... I have read the
                                                   INSTRUCTIONS ...

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Mittwoch, 2. Januar 2008, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2008-01-02, Graham Murray <graham@gmurray.org.uk> wrote:
> > Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:
> >> The problem with this is that Nvidia license non-free code for use in
> >> their drivers. They are not allowed to distribute the source, or other
> >> information about the code, so they have two choices for Linux drivers:
> >> release binary drivers or release open drivers with the code removed and
> >> have everyone complain how the Linux drivers are slower or less capable
> >> than the Windows ones.
> >
> > Choice 3: Release the hardware interface specification so that the Linux
> > community can write a free 'xorg' driver.
>
> It's possible that release of some of the hardware interface
> information is also restricted by the terms of a license under
> which they use IP that they don't own.

there was once a free nvidia driver - many years ago. It got removed. And 
rumors say,  one reason was precious Intel 'IP' was in there...
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:33:36 -0600, Marzan, Richard non Unisys wrote:
> 
> > Keeping in mind that this petition probably might not work, I think
> > it's a good idea to let Nvidia know how many people are interested in
> > having free drivers. This might lead them to release information on how
> > to write drivers for their hardware.
> 
> The problem with this is that Nvidia license non-free code for use in
> their drivers. They are not allowed to distribute the source, or other
> information about the code, so they have two choices for Linux drivers:

They could rewrite it step by step and release the rewritten parts 
to the community. At least the kernel module, it doesn't seem to be 
that complex (compared with the open code around it). 

cu
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
 	http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce
 Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
	http://patches.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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RE: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Marzan, Richard non Unisys]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Enrico Weigelt [mailto:weigelt@metux.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:00 PM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for
> open/free drivers
> 
> * Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:33:36 -0600, Marzan, Richard non Unisys wrote:
> >
> > > Keeping in mind that this petition probably might not work, I
think
> > > it's a good idea to let Nvidia know how many people are interested
in
> > > having free drivers. This might lead them to release information
on
> how
> > > to write drivers for their hardware.
> >
> > The problem with this is that Nvidia license non-free code for use
in
> > their drivers. They are not allowed to distribute the source, or
other
> > information about the code, so they have two choices for Linux
drivers:
> 
> They could rewrite it step by step and release the rewritten parts
> to the community. At least the kernel module, it doesn't seem to be
> that complex (compared with the open code around it).
> 
> cu
> --
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
>  	http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce
>  Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
> 	http://patches.metux.de/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list


It's ridiculous. I don't see how they will lose by providing documents
on how to write drivers for their hardware. This is a simple solution
that would not even involve them if they just gave us the specs. They
have nothing to gain but disgruntled customers by locking people out of
things they own.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Neil Bothwick]

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 22:00:07 +0100, Enrico Weigelt wrote:

> > The problem with this is that Nvidia license non-free code for use in
> > their drivers. They are not allowed to distribute the source, or other
> > information about the code, so they have two choices for Linux
> > drivers:  
> 
> They could rewrite it step by step and release the rewritten parts 
> to the community.

No they couldn't, at least not without ensuring that no one working on
the new code has seen any of the licensed code. So they need to pay a
separate team of developers to develop an alternative to something
they've already paid for. Can you see them going for that?

Such a task is better undertaken by people outside of Nvidia, but if it
was that simple it would have been done already.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Windows: just another pane in the glass
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Mittwoch, 2. Januar 2008, Marzan, Richard non Unisys wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Enrico Weigelt [mailto:weigelt@metux.de]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:00 PM
> > To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for
> > open/free drivers
> >
> > * Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:33:36 -0600, Marzan, Richard non Unisys wrote:
> > > > Keeping in mind that this petition probably might not work, I
>
> think
>
> > > > it's a good idea to let Nvidia know how many people are interested
>
> in
>
> > > > having free drivers. This might lead them to release information
>
> on
>
> > how
> >
> > > > to write drivers for their hardware.
> > >
> > > The problem with this is that Nvidia license non-free code for use
>
> in
>
> > > their drivers. They are not allowed to distribute the source, or
>
> other
>
> > > information about the code, so they have two choices for Linux
>
> drivers:
> > They could rewrite it step by step and release the rewritten parts
> > to the community. At least the kernel module, it doesn't seem to be
> > that complex (compared with the open code around it).
> >
> > cu
> > --
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
> >  	http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce
> >  Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
> > 	http://patches.metux.de/
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
> It's ridiculous. I don't see how they will lose by providing documents
> on how to write drivers for their hardware. This is a simple solution
> that would not even involve them if they just gave us the specs. They
> have nothing to gain but disgruntled customers by locking people out of
> things they own.

not the hardware specs are important, the errata are important. Just ask the 
guys who wrote the open radeon drivers back then. They fighted with a lot of 
bugs, hardware bugs, that were never mentioned in 'the specs'.

And if you have enough foreign IP in your hardware you can not just open the 
documentation. You might want to ask a lawyer about it. Since you have an 
unisys adress it should be easy for you to find one who might want to explain 
to you the finer details of 'licence agreements' and all the traps and 
problems around them.
-- 
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RE: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for open/free drivers

[bjlockie]

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Enrico Weigelt [mailto:weigelt@metux.de]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:00 PM
>> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
>> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Nvidia users: please sign petition for
>> open/free drivers
>>
>> * Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>> > On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:33:36 -0600, Marzan, Richard non Unisys wrote:
>> >
>> > > Keeping in mind that this petition probably might not work, I
> think
>> > > it's a good idea to let Nvidia know how many people are interested
> in
>> > > having free drivers. This might lead them to release information
> on
>> how
>> > > to write drivers for their hardware.
>> >
>> > The problem with this is that Nvidia license non-free code for use
> in
>> > their drivers. They are not allowed to distribute the source, or
> other
>> > information about the code, so they have two choices for Linux
> drivers:
>>
>> They could rewrite it step by step and release the rewritten parts
>> to the community. At least the kernel module, it doesn't seem to be
>> that complex (compared with the open code around it).
>>
>> cu
>> --
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
>>  	http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce
>>  Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
>> 	http://patches.metux.de/
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

They want to protect their intellectual property.
They paid for R&D and they don't want to give that investment away.


-- 
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