[gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Roy Wright]

Howdy,

Well, I had to local mask

=x11-base/xorg-server-1.4-r1
=x11-base/xorg-server-1.4
=x11-base/xorg-x11-7.3

today to keep portage from blocking.  My guess
is that eventually a new version of nvidia-drivers
will be available and a new revision of xorg-server
will arrive that will support it (no longer block all
versions of nvidia-drivers).

Until that time will probably just keep masking
xorg-server and hope I remember to unmask
xorg-x11 at that time.

This seems inelegant.  So I'm hoping someone
has a better approach.


TIA,
Roy

-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Dienstag, 11. September 2007, Roy Wright wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> Well, I had to local mask
>
> =x11-base/xorg-server-1.4-r1
> =x11-base/xorg-server-1.4
> =x11-base/xorg-x11-7.3
>
> today to keep portage from blocking.  My guess
> is that eventually a new version of nvidia-drivers
> will be available and a new revision of xorg-server
> will arrive that will support it (no longer block all
> versions of nvidia-drivers).
>
> Until that time will probably just keep masking
> xorg-server and hope I remember to unmask
> xorg-x11 at that time.
>
> This seems inelegant.  So I'm hoping someone
> has a better approach.
>
>
> TIA,
> Roy

remove the blocker? the current nvidia-drivers work fine, if you 
add -ignoreAbi to your X-start script (like kdm conf).
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Roy Wright]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> remove the blocker? the current nvidia-drivers work fine, if you 
> add -ignoreAbi to your X-start script (like kdm conf).
>   


The problem is that any nvidia-driver is the blocker to
xorg-server-1.4-r1.

royw-gentoo portage # emerge -uDNpv world

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating world dependencies... done!
[ebuild  N    ] x11-libs/pixman-0.9.5  USE="-debug" 0 kB
[ebuild     U ] x11-base/xorg-server-1.4-r1 [1.3.0.0] USE="dri hal%*
ipv6 nptl sdl xorg xprint -3dfx -debug -dmx -kdrive -minimal"
INPUT_DEVICES="keyboard mouse -acecad -aiptek -calcomp -citron
-digitaledge -dmc -dynapro -elo2300 -elographics -evdev -fpit -hyperpen
-jamstudio -joystick -magellan -microtouch -mutouch -palmax -penmount
-spaceorb -summa -synaptics -tek4957 -ur98 -vmmouse -void -wacom"
VIDEO_CARDS="nv vesa vmware -amd% -apm -ark -chips -cirrus -cyrix -dummy
-epson -fbdev -glint -i128 -i740 -i810 (-impact) -imstt -mach64 -mga
-neomagic (-newport) -nsc -r128 -radeon -rendition -s3 -s3virge -savage
-siliconmotion -sis -sisusb (-sunbw2) (-suncg14) (-suncg3) (-suncg6)
(-sunffb) (-sunleo) (-suntcx) -tdfx -tga -trident -tseng -v4l
-vermilion% -vga -via -voodoo -xgi% (-fglrx%) (-nvidia%*)" 0 kB
[ebuild     U ] x11-drivers/xf86-input-keyboard-1.2.2 [1.1.1-r1]
USE="-debug" 0 kB
[ebuild     U ] x11-base/xorg-x11-7.3 [7.2] 0 kB
[blocks B     ] x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers (is blocking
x11-base/xorg-server-1.4-r1)

Total: 4 packages (3 upgrades, 1 new, 1 block), Size of downloads: 0 kB


Looking in the xorg-server-1.4-r1.ebuild:

  IUSE_VIDEO_CARDS="

  [snip]

  #       video_cards_fglrx
  #       video_cards_nvidia"

  [snip]

  PDEPEND="
          xorg? (

  [snip]
 
                 !x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers
                  !x11-drivers/ati-drivers
          )"
  #               video_cards_nvidia? ( x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers )
  #               video_cards_fglrx? ( >=x11-drivers/ati-drivers-8.37.6 )


I recall reading that the xserver team changed their
release policy to not hold up releases for proprietary
drivers (same as the kernel team).  So this is as expected.

I was just hoping someone would have a more elegant
management solution for handling the new situation.


Thank you,
Roy

-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:36:13 +0200
Volker Armin Hemmann <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:

> On Dienstag, 11. September 2007, Roy Wright wrote:
> > Howdy,
> >
> > Well, I had to local mask
> >
> > =x11-base/xorg-server-1.4-r1
> > =x11-base/xorg-server-1.4
> > =x11-base/xorg-x11-7.3
> >
> > today to keep portage from blocking.  My guess
> > is that eventually a new version of nvidia-drivers
> > will be available and a new revision of xorg-server
> > will arrive that will support it (no longer block all
> > versions of nvidia-drivers).
> >
> > Until that time will probably just keep masking
> > xorg-server and hope I remember to unmask
> > xorg-x11 at that time.
> >
> > This seems inelegant.  So I'm hoping someone
> > has a better approach.

The really inelegant solution would be not to have the blocker. 
Most people would just update without looking even at the 
emerge -puDvN world output, and them complain on a huge and
useless thread on the forums, because something broke :P

If you have the blocker, you can't screw up the thing. Blockers
are the only solution for incompatible packages, and the new xorg
version is incompatible with all the nvidia-drivers version. In
fact, no future version of xorg will fix this, since it is completely
nvidia-side. So, I would change your snipped above by this one:

>=x11-base/xorg-server-1.4-r1
>=x11-base/xorg-server-1.4
>=x11-base/xorg-x11-7.3

Note, the '>=' in front of the packages, those are not quotations
starting with '>', but '>=', because any new version will have the
same problem (since as I said, the problem is in the drivers, that
are just outdated).

If you have to incompatible packages, you need to decide what
your priority is, period. There is no way around that, until
nvidia decides to release a new version that is compatible with
the new abi.


> remove the blocker? the current nvidia-drivers work fine, if you 
> add -ignoreAbi to your X-start script (like kdm conf).

So the nvidia people say. Though I can confirm that in my installation
it doesn't work. It just lockups (and yes, I am sure that X composite
was off, because I always have it off).

-- 
Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es>
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Mike]

� Guerrero wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:36:13 +0200
> Volker Armin Hemmann <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:
> 
>> On Dienstag, 11. September 2007, Roy Wright wrote:
>>> Howdy,
>>>
>>> Well, I had to local mask
>>>
>>> =x11-base/xorg-server-1.4-r1
>>> =x11-base/xorg-server-1.4
>>> =x11-base/xorg-x11-7.3
>>>
>>> today to keep portage from blocking.  My guess
>>> is that eventually a new version of nvidia-drivers
>>> will be available and a new revision of xorg-server
>>> will arrive that will support it (no longer block all
>>> versions of nvidia-drivers).
>>>
>>> Until that time will probably just keep masking
>>> xorg-server and hope I remember to unmask
>>> xorg-x11 at that time.
>>>
>>> This seems inelegant.  So I'm hoping someone
>>> has a better approach.
> 
> The really inelegant solution would be not to have the blocker. 
> Most people would just update without looking even at the 
> emerge -puDvN world output, and them complain on a huge and
> useless thread on the forums, because something broke :P
> 
> If you have the blocker, you can't screw up the thing. Blockers
> are the only solution for incompatible packages, and the new xorg
> version is incompatible with all the nvidia-drivers version. In
> fact, no future version of xorg will fix this, since it is completely
> nvidia-side. So, I would change your snipped above by this one:
> 
>> =x11-base/xorg-server-1.4-r1
>> =x11-base/xorg-server-1.4
>> =x11-base/xorg-x11-7.3
> 
> Note, the '>=' in front of the packages, those are not quotations
> starting with '>', but '>=', because any new version will have the
> same problem (since as I said, the problem is in the drivers, that
> are just outdated).
> 
> If you have to incompatible packages, you need to decide what
> your priority is, period. There is no way around that, until
> nvidia decides to release a new version that is compatible with
> the new abi.
> 
> 
>> remove the blocker? the current nvidia-drivers work fine, if you 
>> add -ignoreAbi to your X-start script (like kdm conf).
> 
> So the nvidia people say. Though I can confirm that in my installation
> it doesn't work. It just lockups (and yes, I am sure that X composite
> was off, because I always have it off).
> 
The lockup is probably caused by having the hal use flag set when you 
compile xorg-server. If you disable it you should be able to run the X 
server without conflicting with hal/dbus which was the problem.
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Neil Bothwick]

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Hello Roy Wright,

> Until that time will probably just keep masking
> xorg-server and hope I remember to unmask
> xorg-x11 at that time.

That's probably the most sane approach, unless you want to remove the
blocker from the ebuild and try the new XOrg with Nvidia. Masking
">=xorg-server-1.4" is not a good idea, because then you'll miss the
removal of the blocker, when Nvidia release new drivers.

> This seems inelegant.  So I'm hoping someone
> has a better approach.

It is inelegant, but portage doesn't have an elegant way of handling this
situation. A blocker isn't really the right way to do this, that is meant
to be used when two packages install the same file(s). This is in
incompatibility between versions, but portage doesn't have a way of
saying "don't try to install foo-1.4 if bar-2.7 is installed".


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Windows will never cease.

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Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Dienstag, 11. September 2007, Roy Wright wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > remove the blocker? the current nvidia-drivers work fine, if you
> > add -ignoreAbi to your X-start script (like kdm conf).
>
> The problem is that any nvidia-driver is the blocker to
> xorg-server-1.4-r1.
>
> royw-gentoo portage # emerge -uDNpv world
>
> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
>
> Calculating world dependencies... done!
> [ebuild  N    ] x11-libs/pixman-0.9.5  USE="-debug" 0 kB
> [ebuild     U ] x11-base/xorg-server-1.4-r1 [1.3.0.0] USE="dri hal%*
> ipv6 nptl sdl xorg xprint -3dfx -debug -dmx -kdrive -minimal"
> INPUT_DEVICES="keyboard mouse -acecad -aiptek -calcomp -citron
> -digitaledge -dmc -dynapro -elo2300 -elographics -evdev -fpit -hyperpen
> -jamstudio -joystick -magellan -microtouch -mutouch -palmax -penmount
> -spaceorb -summa -synaptics -tek4957 -ur98 -vmmouse -void -wacom"
> VIDEO_CARDS="nv vesa vmware -amd% -apm -ark -chips -cirrus -cyrix -dummy
> -epson -fbdev -glint -i128 -i740 -i810 (-impact) -imstt -mach64 -mga
> -neomagic (-newport) -nsc -r128 -radeon -rendition -s3 -s3virge -savage
> -siliconmotion -sis -sisusb (-sunbw2) (-suncg14) (-suncg3) (-suncg6)
> (-sunffb) (-sunleo) (-suntcx) -tdfx -tga -trident -tseng -v4l
> -vermilion% -vga -via -voodoo -xgi% (-fglrx%) (-nvidia%*)" 0 kB
> [ebuild     U ] x11-drivers/xf86-input-keyboard-1.2.2 [1.1.1-r1]
> USE="-debug" 0 kB
> [ebuild     U ] x11-base/xorg-x11-7.3 [7.2] 0 kB
> [blocks B     ] x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers (is blocking
> x11-base/xorg-server-1.4-r1)
>
> Total: 4 packages (3 upgrades, 1 new, 1 block), Size of downloads: 0 kB
>
>
> Looking in the xorg-server-1.4-r1.ebuild:
>
>   IUSE_VIDEO_CARDS="
>
>   [snip]
>
>   #       video_cards_fglrx
>   #       video_cards_nvidia"
>
>   [snip]
>
>   PDEPEND="
>           xorg? (
>
>   [snip]
>
>                  !x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers
>                   !x11-drivers/ati-drivers
>           )"
>   #               video_cards_nvidia? ( x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers )
>   #               video_cards_fglrx? ( >=x11-drivers/ati-drivers-8.37.6 )
>
>
> I recall reading that the xserver team changed their
> release policy to not hold up releases for proprietary
> drivers (same as the kernel team).  So this is as expected.
>
> I was just hoping someone would have a more elegant
> management solution for handling the new situation.
>
>
> Thank you,
> Roy

copy the ebuild into your overlay and edit it. No problem.
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Dienstag, 11. September 2007, Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:36:13 +0200
>
> Volker Armin Hemmann <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:
> > On Dienstag, 11. September 2007, Roy Wright wrote:
> > > Howdy,
> > >
> > > Well, I had to local mask
> > >
> > > =x11-base/xorg-server-1.4-r1
> > > =x11-base/xorg-server-1.4
> > > =x11-base/xorg-x11-7.3
> > >
> > > today to keep portage from blocking.  My guess
> > > is that eventually a new version of nvidia-drivers
> > > will be available and a new revision of xorg-server
> > > will arrive that will support it (no longer block all
> > > versions of nvidia-drivers).
> > >
> > > Until that time will probably just keep masking
> > > xorg-server and hope I remember to unmask
> > > xorg-x11 at that time.
> > >
> > > This seems inelegant.  So I'm hoping someone
> > > has a better approach.
>
> The really inelegant solution would be not to have the blocker.
> Most people would just update without looking even at the
> emerge -puDvN world output, and them complain on a huge and
> useless thread on the forums, because something broke :P
>
> If you have the blocker, you can't screw up the thing. Blockers
> are the only solution for incompatible packages, and the new xorg
> version is incompatible with all the nvidia-drivers version. In
> fact, no future version of xorg will fix this, since it is completely
>
> nvidia-side. So, I would change your snipped above by this one:
> >=x11-base/xorg-server-1.4-r1
> >=x11-base/xorg-server-1.4
> >=x11-base/xorg-x11-7.3
>
> Note, the '>=' in front of the packages, those are not quotations
> starting with '>', but '>=', because any new version will have the
> same problem (since as I said, the problem is in the drivers, that
> are just outdated).
>
> If you have to incompatible packages, you need to decide what
> your priority is, period. There is no way around that, until
> nvidia decides to release a new version that is compatible with
> the new abi.
>
> > remove the blocker? the current nvidia-drivers work fine, if you
> > add -ignoreAbi to your X-start script (like kdm conf).
>
> So the nvidia people say. Though I can confirm that in my installation
> it doesn't work. It just lockups (and yes, I am sure that X composite
> was off, because I always have it off).

and I can confirm, that it works very well. With composite turned on. ut2004 
and vegastrike-svn. Without lockups.

--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:28:24 +0200
Volker Armin Hemmann <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:

> > > remove the blocker? the current nvidia-drivers work fine, if you
> > > add -ignoreAbi to your X-start script (like kdm conf).
> >
> > So the nvidia people say. Though I can confirm that in my installation
> > it doesn't work. It just lockups (and yes, I am sure that X composite
> > was off, because I always have it off).
> 
> and I can confirm, that it works very well. With composite turned on. ut2004 
> and vegastrike-svn. Without lockups.
> 
> -- 
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
 
Well, that means "it works for me", which is not_equal to "it works".

That doesn't justify an advice like the one you gave above, because
it could be a problem for that person. At least, a warning should be
given, and that's what I did.

In any case, something I wouldn't recommend anyway, since, regardless
if it works on a punctual case or not, the only truth is that if you 
update Xorg the ABI will be broken. Plus, what's the need to upgrade?

-- 
Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es>
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:53:04 -0400
Mike <whodie@comcast.net> wrote:

> � Guerrero wrote:
> > On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:36:13 +0200
> > Volker Armin Hemmann <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > So the nvidia people say. Though I can confirm that in my installation
> > it doesn't work. It just lockups (and yes, I am sure that X composite
> > was off, because I always have it off).
> > 
> The lockup is probably caused by having the hal use flag set when you 
> compile xorg-server. If you disable it you should be able to run the X 
> server without conflicting with hal/dbus which was the problem.

Can you give me some more info/links or pointers about the reasoning
behind this? Why should hal be a problem when it always worked without
a single problem?

Or maybe a misunderstood you and you mean that is the conjunction of 
a broken driver (nvidia) and the hal stuff, bit in that case the guilty
is not hal anyway, but the driver.

Also, I wonder why would I want to run X without hal/dbus support :P

Thanks.

-- 
Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es>
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Dienstag, 11. September 2007, Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:28:24 +0200
>
> Volker Armin Hemmann <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:
> > > > remove the blocker? the current nvidia-drivers work fine, if you
> > > > add -ignoreAbi to your X-start script (like kdm conf).
> > >
> > > So the nvidia people say. Though I can confirm that in my installation
> > > it doesn't work. It just lockups (and yes, I am sure that X composite
> > > was off, because I always have it off).
> >
> > and I can confirm, that it works very well. With composite turned on.
> > ut2004 and vegastrike-svn. Without lockups.
> >
> > --
> > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
> Well, that means "it works for me", which is not_equal to "it works".

it works for several people in the nvidia forum. With no 'it does not work' 
messages. 


--
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Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Graham Murray]

Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es> writes:

> Can you give me some more info/links or pointers about the reasoning
> behind this? Why should hal be a problem when it always worked without
> a single problem?

Maybe because xorg-server-1.4 is the first to have the hal USE
flag. This would imply that previous version of X did not use hal/dbus.
--
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Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:31:02 +0100
Graham Murray <graham@gmurray.org.uk> wrote:

> Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es> writes:
> 
> > Can you give me some more info/links or pointers about the reasoning
> > behind this? Why should hal be a problem when it always worked without
> > a single problem?
> 
> Maybe because xorg-server-1.4 is the first to have the hal USE
> flag. This would imply that previous version of X did not use hal/dbus.
> -- 
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
> 

I see, but why has this been enabled if it is supposed to be the cause of
lockups? That is, in case it really it is, because for now I have no proof
on that, and I would better suspect of a broken abi than hal.

I am not trying to argue, but trying to find any info on the issue. I can't
find any references to unstability in xorg created by the introduction of
hal. So, I see no reason to suspect about hal, which has always been a
stable piece of my system. While an ABI breakage is far more suspicious
for me.

Again, I just want to see additional info on this if there is any.
-- 
Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es>
--
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Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:20:16 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> it works for several people in the nvidia forum. With no 'it does not
> work' messages. 

If we're taking a vote, it "works for me" too, although the option is
-ignoreABI, not -ignoreAbi.

So the consensus is that, while it may well not work for all, it
certainly is likely to work for most, so it is worth trying. It's not
like this is a system-critical package that will stop you booting, the
worst that can happen is that you are without a desktop for a few minutes.

It would be prudent to quickpkg the previous version in xorg-server
(unless you have buildpkg in FEATURES) so that you can switch back
quickly if you do have a problem.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"Bother," said Pooh, as Satan laid his soul to waste.

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Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Kent Fredric]

On 9/12/07, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:20:16 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>
> > it works for several people in the nvidia forum. With no 'it does not
> > work' messages.
>
> If we're taking a vote, it "works for me" too, although the option is
> -ignoreABI, not -ignoreAbi.
>
> So the consensus is that, while it may well not work for all, it
> certainly is likely to work for most, so it is worth trying. It's not
> like this is a system-critical package that will stop you booting, the
> worst that can happen is that you are without a desktop for a few minutes.
>
> It would be prudent to quickpkg the previous version in xorg-server
> (unless you have buildpkg in FEATURES) so that you can switch back
> quickly if you do have a problem.
>
>
> --
> Neil Bothwick
>
> "Bother," said Pooh, as Satan laid his soul to waste.
>
>


/me votes for the  "+omgbrokednvidiazbutinstallzanywayz" USE flag.

Just to mock the lunacy ;)

( this should of course, toggle the -fomgoptimize CFLAG too )


-- 
Kent
ruby -e '[1, 2, 4, 7, 0, 9, 5, 8, 3, 10, 11, 6, 12, 13].each{|x|
print "enNOSPicAMreil kdrtf@gma.com"[(2*x)..(2*x+1)]}'
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:46:04 +0100
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:20:16 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> 
> > it works for several people in the nvidia forum. With no 'it does not
> > work' messages. 
> 
> If we're taking a vote, it "works for me" too, although the option is
> -ignoreABI, not -ignoreAbi.

Yes, I know. 

> So the consensus is that, while it may well not work for all, it
> certainly is likely to work for most, so it is worth trying. It's not
> like this is a system-critical package that will stop you booting, the
> worst that can happen is that you are without a desktop for a few minutes.
> 
> It would be prudent to quickpkg the previous version in xorg-server
> (unless you have buildpkg in FEATURES) so that you can switch back
> quickly if you do have a problem.
> 
Yep, that's what I do in these cases. It saves a lot of pain. Not that
xorg is vital for me anyway. I am mostly a GNU Screen user ;) Anyway,
since there's the blocker, one is supposed to know what s/he is doing
if decides to override it.

-- 
Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es>
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How do you handle new Xorg + nvidia + ~x86?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:56:49 +0200, Jesús Guerrero wrote:

> Yep, that's what I do in these cases. It saves a lot of pain. Not that
> xorg is vital for me anyway. I am mostly a GNU Screen user ;)


Me too, but screen is at its best when run in Konsole :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Q:  Why is top-posting evil?
A: backwards read don't humans because

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