[gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[arnuld]

OK, i found Gentoo a great incident of my life :-), 10 installations
and on 11th time i knew what went wrong in last 10 times and from
there it never went wrong ;-). i   want to use Gentoo but i have one
doubt.  i am much more inclined towards using "simple" things, like
simplicity in designing an OS. i see, CRUX and Arch are based on
simplicity, the KISS principle and nothing else.

i want to know whether Gentoo has "simplicity" or "KISS and clean"
structure in its design as an OS ?  this is the only thing that is
stopping me from using Gentoo. Gentoo philosophy says *nothing* about
simplicity, it talks only about customisation. any idea of if KISS is
present in Gentoo design ?


NOTE: i have observed one thing. i have used Gentoo for 2 days only
and now i am trying to use Arch and CRUX but i see, for me,  it is
very difficult to use and work with them them since i am getting used
to a lower level of things. happened with anybody ?
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Mauro Faccenda]

On Friday 18 May 2007 15:04, arnuld wrote:
> OK, i found Gentoo a great incident of my life :-), 10 installations
> and on 11th time i knew what went wrong in last 10 times and from
> there it never went wrong ;-). i   want to use Gentoo but i have one
> doubt.  i am much more inclined towards using "simple" things, like
> simplicity in designing an OS. i see, CRUX and Arch are based on
> simplicity, the KISS principle and nothing else.
>
> i want to know whether Gentoo has "simplicity" or "KISS and clean"
> structure in its design as an OS ?  this is the only thing that is
> stopping me from using Gentoo. Gentoo philosophy says *nothing* about
> simplicity, it talks only about customisation. any idea of if KISS is
> present in Gentoo design ?
>
>
> NOTE: i have observed one thing. i have used Gentoo for 2 days only
> and now i am trying to use Arch and CRUX but i see, for me,  it is
> very difficult to use and work with them them since i am getting used
> to a lower level of things. happened with anybody ?

AFAIK, Gentoo filosophy is about choices.

If you want it simple, you can keep it simple. If you don't, you can do it 
too.

And you discovered what was going wrong in your first 10 installations, right? 
Can you tell if it was well documentated? If it was your mistake in "jumping" 
some topics of the handbook?

I am a experienced Linux user, and I can tell: if not 100%, something very 
close of it of the problems I had in Gentoo installation was due to my 
mistakes.

But I don't blame Gentoo. ;)

[]'s
	.m
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[arnuld]

> On 5/18/07, Mauro Faccenda <faccenda@gmx.net> wrote:

> AFAIK, Gentoo filosophy is about choices.
>
> If you want it simple, you can keep it simple. If you don't, you can do it
> too.

oooooh.....

> And you discovered what was going wrong in your first 10 installations, right?
> Can you tell if it was well documentated? If it was your mistake in "jumping"
> some topics of the handbook?

no, it is NOT in the handbook. there were many mistakes. i only remember the 3:

1.) i had a Serial-ATA drive and AMD64 on ASUS with VIA chipsets.
kernel-compilation part of Handbook asks to choose PPP options and MCE
features etc etc but it did not tell to select VIA82xx and VIA SATA
and VIA PATA options for serial driver.  any Serial-ATAhard-disk will
not boot properly without them. (of course, others will have some
other motherboards, Intel e.g., but we can leave that to the user for
finding the specific SATA and PATA drivers inthe kernel.)

2.) i entered "/dev/hda" instead of "/dev/sda" in "/etc/fstab. my
mistake, of course.

3.) i entered "/dev/sda1 / ext3" when i had reiserfs fro my /. this
too was my mistake


> I am a experienced Linux user, and I can tell: if not 100%, something very
> close of it of the problems I had in Gentoo installation was due to my
> mistakes.

yep, 99% it was *my* mistake.

> But I don't blame Gentoo. ;)

hey.. i did not blame Gentoo in my earlier post.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman]

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arnuld wrote:
> 1.) i had a Serial-ATA drive and AMD64 on ASUS with VIA chipsets.
> kernel-compilation part of Handbook asks to choose PPP options and MCE
[...]
> other motherboards, Intel e.g., but we can leave that to the user for
> finding the specific SATA and PATA drivers inthe kernel.)

Well, if you are brave enough to configure your own kernel... don't complain!

genkernel works fine, most of the times.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Kent Fredric]

/etc/genkernel.conf

MENUCONFIG="no"
MRPROPER="no"
CLEAN="no"
BOOTSPLASH="no"
SAVE_CONFIG="yes"
DEBUGLEVEL=5
BOOTLOADER="grub"
USECOLOR="yes"


cd /usr/src/linux
zcat /proc/config.gz > .config
make oldconfig
genkernel --kernname=WhateverFitsMyMood all


the above gives you you the power to configure your kernel to suit
your needs, -and- makes genkernel useful as a time-saving 'ok, just
build it ' tool :)

Of course it did help when that bug in genkernel mid2005 was fixed ;),
a trunicated grub.conf is no fun.

On 5/19/07, Roy Wright <royw@cisco.com> wrote:
> Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman wrote:
> > arnuld wrote:
> > > 1.) i had a Serial-ATA drive and AMD64 on ASUS with VIA chipsets.
> > > kernel-compilation part of Handbook asks to choose PPP options and MCE
> > [...]
> > > other motherboards, Intel e.g., but we can leave that to the user for
> > > finding the specific SATA and PATA drivers inthe kernel.)
> >
> > Well, if you are brave enough to configure your own kernel... don't
> > complain!
> >
> > genkernel works fine, most of the times.
> >
>
> genkernel is for wimps...  Way to go arnuld!
>
> Seriously, genkernel is fine for liveCD and the first month for a NOOB.
> But to really learn/exploit/enjoy/appreciate Gentoo, you gotta have it
> your way...  If not, then you might as well be running ubuntu...  :-)
>
> Have fun,
> Roy
>
> Gentoo x86, ~x86, PS3
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>
>


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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Kent Fredric]

sorry,  top posted :S... damn gmail & forgetting.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Samstag, 19. Mai 2007, Kent Fredric wrote:
> /etc/genkernel.conf
>
> MENUCONFIG="no"
> MRPROPER="no"
> CLEAN="no"
> BOOTSPLASH="no"
> SAVE_CONFIG="yes"
> DEBUGLEVEL=5
> BOOTLOADER="grub"
> USECOLOR="yes"
>
>
> cd /usr/src/linux
> zcat /proc/config.gz > .config
> make oldconfig
> genkernel --kernname=WhateverFitsMyMood all
>
>
> the above gives you you the power to configure your kernel to suit
> your needs, -and- makes genkernel useful as a time-saving 'ok, just
> build it ' tool :)
>

and that is faster than 
zcat /proc/config.gz > .config
make oldconfig
make all modules_install install
?

or easier?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[arnuld]

> On 5/18/07, Mauro Faccenda <faccenda@gmx.net> wrote:


> well, none of those errors is Gentoo specific. It's kernel compilations
> problems, and you'll have those in any distribution. Even the binary ones, if
> you want to install a custom kernel.
>
> for the users that can't compile the kernel by himself, Gentoo provides the
> genkernel, that works quite well (I never needed to use it, but I know some
> guys that love it). i'm not sure, but the "default" kernel instalation method
> in the handbook is using genkernel. so, it could be simplier (if with it you
> mean easier) if you want it to. and seems that you don't (choosing the manual
> method ;) ).

i am talking of *both* methods. i don't remember anything *exactly*
but with genkernel i had exactly same weired problems when i didn't
choose VIA PATA in my kernel while compiling manually. i tried 2 times
and after that i quit generkernel and decided always to do a
transparent manual kernel-compilation.

> > yep, 99% it was *my* mistake.
> >
> > > But I don't blame Gentoo. ;)
> >
> > hey.. i did not blame Gentoo in my earlier post.
>
> ok, fine.
>
> oh! about your "NOTE" on your earlier post:
>
> it happened to mee too. i tryied, but i couldn't go back to a "higher level"
> distro. i felt really unconfortable.
>
> anyway, good luck.
>
>
> []'s
>         .m
>


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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Dale]

arnuld wrote:
>
> i am talking of *both* methods. i don't remember anything *exactly*
> but with genkernel i had exactly same weired problems when i didn't
> choose VIA PATA in my kernel while compiling manually. i tried 2 times
> and after that i quit generkernel and decided always to do a
> transparent manual kernel-compilation.
>
>
>

I tried genkernel a while back and I decided to do my own too.  After
the first time, you just do a make oldconfig and walk through the new
stuff.  It's not to bad.  Most of the time you can say no to the new
stuff anyway, unless you have something that doesn't work.

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-)

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Copy n paste then remove the -remove-me- part.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Philip Webb]

070518 arnuld wrote:
>> On 5/18/07, Mauro Faccenda <faccenda@gmx.net> wrote:
>> AFAIK, Gentoo filosophy is about choices.
>> If you want it simple, you can keep it simple.
>> If you don't, you can do it too.
> yep, 99% it was *my* mistake.
> hey.. i did not blame Gentoo in my earlier post.

Yes, Gentoo is for people who want to manage their own box,
make their own choices & learn from their own mistakes.

I installed Gentoo on my machine 031007 & haven't re-installed since:
I check once a week for packages to update (avoid 'emerge world')
& decide how close to the cut/bleeding edges I want to be.
I plan to build a new machine later this year & install Gentoo there too.

Once you get used to it, you'll probably like Gentoo: most people do.
Those who leave usually are very busy in their lives
& simply don't have the time to keep it upto-date.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Dan Farrell]

On Fri, 18 May 2007 18:04:16 +0000
arnuld <geek.arnuld@gmail.com> wrote:

> i want to know whether Gentoo has "simplicity" or "KISS and clean"
> structure in its design as an OS ?  this is the only thing that is
> stopping me from using Gentoo. Gentoo philosophy says *nothing* about
> simplicity, it talks only about customisation. any idea of if KISS is
> present in Gentoo design ?

In my humble opinion, gentoo is the only distribution worth considering
when it comes to keeping the system simple.  Any other distro, and
you're going to have to pick through lists of packages disabling all
that you know you don't need; with gentoo, you can install what you
know you _do_ need, and go from there.  The initial footprint is a
little bigger at first because of the developent tools you need to
build your own software, but if you want to keep it small you'll have
much more success  with gentoo than with anything else.  

The one other caveat is that portage is bulky, slow, and
space-consuming.  But there are many ways to combat this, and it's
really not an issue if you have lots of gentoo hosts.  
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RE: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[burlingk]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Philip Webb [mailto:purslow@sympatico.ca] 
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 4:26 AM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?
<snip>
> Once you get used to it, you'll probably like Gentoo: most 
> people do. Those who leave usually are very busy in their 
> lives & simply don't have the time to keep it upto-date.
> 
If a person does not wish to stay up to date, if they simply
wish to have a stable system, is getting busy really a reason
to change operating systems?
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Randy Barlow]

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burlingk@cv63.navy.mil wrote:
>> Once you get used to it, you'll probably like Gentoo: most 
>> people do. Those who leave usually are very busy in their 
>> lives & simply don't have the time to keep it upto-date.

> If a person does not wish to stay up to date, if they simply
> wish to have a stable system, is getting busy really a reason
> to change operating systems?

Yeah, I'm thinking that it's really not too bad to keep my Gentoo system
running reasonably up to date.  My personal update strategy is just to
wait until I get a security problem from Gentoo-Announce saying that one
of my packages has a problem.  If I don't get that then I stay with the
packages my system has.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it :)

R
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman]

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I can't stand it anymore! Since the KISS word appeared on the subject line of gentoo-user I had this
idea, and now you're gonna MAKE FUN OF ME, ok?

For you, from the bottom of my geek mind and heart :P

Tonight I'm gonna do a stage 1 fight...
In the darkness
There's so much i wanna MAKE...
And Tonight I wanna layman at your feet
Gentoo I was made for you
Emerge you were made for me.

I was made for loving you Gentoo,
you were made for loving me.
And i won't stop compiling you Gentoo,
are you done compiling C?


:P

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Dan Cowsill]

LOL!

On 5/19/07, Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman <buanzo@buanzo.com.ar> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> I can't stand it anymore! Since the KISS word appeared on the subject line of gentoo-user I had this
> idea, and now you're gonna MAKE FUN OF ME, ok?
>
> For you, from the bottom of my geek mind and heart :P
>
> Tonight I'm gonna do a stage 1 fight...
> In the darkness
> There's so much i wanna MAKE...
> And Tonight I wanna layman at your feet
> Gentoo I was made for you
> Emerge you were made for me.
>
> I was made for loving you Gentoo,
> you were made for loving me.
> And i won't stop compiling you Gentoo,
> are you done compiling C?
>
>
> :P
>
> - --
> Arturo "Buanzo" Busleiman - Consultor Independiente en Seguridad Informatica
> OpenPGP for HTTP: New Web-Auth Scheme: http://freshmeat.net/articles/view/2599
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>
>


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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Nick]

On Sat, May 19, 2007 at 06:50:17PM -0300, Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman wrote:
> For you, from the bottom of my geek mind and heart :P
> 
> Tonight I'm gonna do a stage 1 fight...
> In the darkness
> There's so much i wanna MAKE...
> And Tonight I wanna layman at your feet
> Gentoo I was made for you
> Emerge you were made for me.
> 
> I was made for loving you Gentoo,
> you were made for loving me.
> And i won't stop compiling you Gentoo,
> are you done compiling C?

That was fantastic. Thank you. From the bottom of my geek mind and
heart, I thank you.

I read this to my girlfriend; she didn't seem impressed. Clearly,
this is her fault, not the fault of the poem. The poem is perfect.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Nick wrote:
> That was fantastic. Thank you. From the bottom of my geek mind and
> heart, I thank you.

I will complete it, and add some music to it. I guess the Audacity team will be clearly disturbed by
me in the following days.

> I read this to my girlfriend; she didn't seem impressed. Clearly,
> this is her fault, not the fault of the poem. The poem is perfect.

Oh, well, what can you expect from a simple punk-rocker?
http://www.jamendo.com/es/album/5136/

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, May 19, 2007 at 10:42:22AM +0900, burlingk@cv63.navy.mil wrote

> If a person does not wish to stay up to date, if they simply wish
> to have a stable system, is getting busy really a reason to change
> operating systems?

  If you're connecting to the internet, you *MUST* keep your system up
to date, to maintain security.  Yes even linux systems have some
security problems.  A lot fewer than Windows, but it does happen.
Problems with the actual kernel are only a small part of the problem.
Flash, Adobe PDF, Java, etc, have had a few problems which can occur on
all platforms they run on.

  What's so time-consuming about once-a-week...
  * emerge --sync
  * emerge --ask --deep --update --world

  The update world can be started just before going to bed <G>.  Update
kernel once every couple of months or when a GLSA requires it.

-- 
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Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft security?
A. I think it would be a good idea.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[Dan Farrell]

On Sun, 20 May 2007 02:33:24 -0400
"Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:

>  If you're connecting to the internet, you *MUST* keep your system up
> to date, to maintain security. 

Not necessarily.  You only have to update programs with known security
holes.  New versions are just as likely to introduce unknown holes as
fix old unknown holes.  Furthermore, for most persons'
desktop/laptop systems, there's no need to be listening on any ports at
all.  That should tighten up security pretty well,  so I don't see why
it's so critical to always be updating. Perhaps i'm wrong?

That having been said, I do think it's generally a good idea to keep up
to date.  Wait too long, and you just cause unnecessary problems for
yourself when you finally need to upgrade something.  But that having
been said, if you find it a giant hassle, why not just stop doing it
unless absolutely necessary?  
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RE: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?

[burlingk]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walter Dnes [mailto:waltdnes@waltdnes.org] 
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 3:33 PM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo and KISS ?
> 
> 
> On Sat, May 19, 2007 at 10:42:22AM +0900, burlingk@cv63.navy.mil wrote
> 
> > If a person does not wish to stay up to date, if they 
> simply wish to 
> > have a stable system, is getting busy really a reason to change 
> > operating systems?
> 
>   If you're connecting to the internet, you *MUST* keep your 
> system up to date, to maintain security.  Yes even linux 
> systems have some security problems.  A lot fewer than 
> Windows, but it does happen. Problems with the actual kernel 
> are only a small part of the problem. Flash, Adobe PDF, Java, 
> etc, have had a few problems which can occur on all platforms 
> they run on.
> 
>   What's so time-consuming about once-a-week...
>   * emerge --sync
>   * emerge --ask --deep --update --world
> 
>   The update world can be started just before going to bed 
> <G>.  Update kernel once every couple of months or when a 
> GLSA requires it.
> 
> -- 
> Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> In linux /sbin/init is 
> Job #1 Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft 
> security? A. I think it would be a good idea.
> -- 

For the average user (I know, the average user is not using Gentoo),
emerge --<any set of options> world is no trivial task.
For the average user, Security means padlocks and car alarms.
The average user is using their machine for movies and video games, and
doesn't have the time to fight with bugs if emerging world doesn't go
quite right. :P

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