RE: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

RE: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[burlingk]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hemmann, Volker Armin 
> [mailto:volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de] 
> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 2:22 AM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular 
> dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
> 
> 
> On Donnerstag, 17. Mai 2007, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> 
> >
> > It *P*DEPENDs on them. That's an (strange) kind of special 
> dependency 
> > which is pulled in *after* install, instead of *before*. 
> But still it 
> > is an dependency.
> >
> > So, Xserver dependens on driver(s), drivers depend on Xserver. 
> > Circular dependency.
> >
> > q.e.d.
> >
> 
> aren't you ashamed of yourself, when you post stupid stuff like that?

I haven't done an install of Xorg on Gentoo yet (Right now I am running
off of a networkless install, so that doesn't really count).  However,
when I installed it on an LFS build, on the same machine, I followed 
their walkthrough, and it installed fine.  Mesa would not install
without
installing Xorg first, and Xorg would not install without knowing where
the mesa source code is.  Other drivers were left up to the individual
to handle, but that was enough for everything to load.

So yes, that is a circular dependency, even without Gentoo involved.
Not everything is simple, and not everything is cut and dry.  Sometimes
the problem is not directly the package manager's fault.  Give them time
to work out all the glitches.  7.2 is fairly new.  The chip used by most
AMD64 machines, and a handful of Intel machines is not supported by the
Vendor with 7.2.  All the support at this time has to come from the
Community, until updated drivers are released.  It was considered a
greater
miracle when we got the ones we have now.  ATI has nice graphics maybe
(I still prefer nVidia), but they are not friendly to the Open Source
World.
They throw us a bone every now and then, and people rejoice because they
can use the same hardware more easily between Windows and Linux.

End result is that when software upgrades, you either have to stay
behind,
or hope that the devs find a work around for you (unless you can do the
work around yourself).

I haven't heard too many complaints out of nVidia users though. :P  My
lap
top is a laptop.  It has to use whatever it already has in it.  When
I build my next desktop however, it will use nVidia.

I guess it would probably be a good point to make that issues installing
X
Almost always come down to video card support.

---
Ken
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman]

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burlingk@cv63.navy.mil wrote:
> ATI has nice graphics maybe (I still prefer nVidia), but they
> are not friendly to the Open Source World.

AMD announced last week that they will be releasing ATI drivers as OSS:

http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/13/1659245

previous to the former announcement:
http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/05/10/1424224.shtml

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman <buanzo@buanzo.com.ar> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
> 
> burlingk@cv63.navy.mil wrote:
> > ATI has nice graphics maybe (I still prefer nVidia), but they
> > are not friendly to the Open Source World.
> 
> AMD announced last week that they will be releasing ATI drivers as OSS:
> 
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/13/1659245
> 
> previous to the former announcement:
> http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/05/10/1424224.shtml

well, let's the what actually happens ...


cu
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Neil Walker]

burlingk@cv63.navy.mil wrote:
> So yes, that is a circular dependency, even without Gentoo involved.
> Not everything is simple, and not everything is cut and dry.  Sometimes
> the problem is not directly the package manager's fault.  Give them time
> to work out all the glitches.  7.2 is fairly new.  The chip used by most
> AMD64 machines, and a handful of Intel machines is not supported by the
> Vendor with 7.2.  All the support at this time has to come from the
> Community, until updated drivers are released.

Well, I really don't know what all this talk of glitches and circular 
dependencies is all about. I just installed Gentoo with xorg, kde, etc. 
on a brand new machine I built yesterday. It's an Abit motherboard with 
an vVidia chipset (nForce 4 Ultra) and an nVidia GeForce 7300GT video 
card. It all install without a single issue. In fact, I am typing this 
on that very machine. :)


Be lucky,

Neil

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RE: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[burlingk]

> Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> > The circular dependencies between Xserver and drivers do not come
> > from upstream. They're artificial. If we just want an simple-to-use
> > package which gets the Xserver *and* drivers based on useflags
> > (which IMHO is an good idea), it's quite trivial to do this by an 
> > virtual/meta package. I've did it and it works good. You can get
> > it from my overlay via CVS:
> >   


That is exactly what the xorg-x11 metapackage is designed to do.
If you don't add in a million USE flags that don't want to play nice, 
then it should all compile (in theory).  I say in theory, because
there are always things that can possibly get in the way.  Bugs happen 
on occasion.  I am learning how to properly use USE flags myself. ^_^

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* burlingk@cv63.navy.mil <burlingk@cv63.navy.mil> wrote:

<snip>

> That is exactly what the xorg-x11 metapackage is designed to do.

Not exactly. The xorg-x11 package pulls in much more than 
just the server w/ some drivers.

cu
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RE: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[burlingk]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman [mailto:buanzo@buanzo.com.ar] 
> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 7:02 PM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular 
> dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
> 
> burlingk@cv63.navy.mil wrote:
> > ATI has nice graphics maybe (I still prefer nVidia), but 
> they are not 
> > friendly to the Open Source World.
> 
> AMD announced last week that they will be releasing ATI 
> drivers as OSS:
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/13/1659245
>previous to the former announcement:
http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/05/10/1424224.shtml

Cool.
Even though ATI wasn't very Open Source friendly, AMD always has been.
:P
It is good when our allies buy out hostile entities. ^_^

I still prefer nVidia. :P  Someone just needs to nudge them in the right
direction.
Maybe this will do the trick. ^_^  At the very least, we will hopefully
have drivers
for our ATI cards soon. ^_^

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[gentoo-user] xorg-7.2 and ati-drivers-8.32.5

[Remy Blank]

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I have noticed xorg-7.2 just went stable. I am currently using 7.1 with
the stable binary ATI drivers ati-drivers-8.32.5 and the kernel
gentoo-sources-2.6.19-r5. Has anybody with the same configuration done
the update? Does it work for you?

(Yes, I know, binary drivers suck. I'm not trying to start a flamewar,
I'd just like to know if it works for somebody else before trying myself.)

Thanks.
-- Remy


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: xorg-7.2 and ati-drivers-8.32.5 - Thank you Gentoo devs

[Francisco Rivas]

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Hi Remy..

I have xorg 7.1.1 8.36.5 ati driver and k 2.6.21 it works fine with
opengl...

I hope this help you, and post all your questions...the people here will
help you...

On 5/15/07, Remy Blank <remy.blank@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> Remy Blank wrote:
> > I have noticed xorg-7.2 just went stable. I am currently using 7.1 with
> > the stable binary ATI drivers ati-drivers-8.32.5 and the kernel
> > gentoo-sources-2.6.19-r5. Has anybody with the same configuration done
> > the update? Does it work for you?
>
> Just for posterity: I have updated to xorg-7.2 and everything works
> perfectly well. As usual, I should say. A big thank you to Gentoo
> developers (the xorg maintainers but all others as well) for making
> system administration as simple as it is now. Nothing ever breaks these
> days.
>
> -- Remy
>
>
>


-- 
Francisco Rivas
Linux User (New) : #448324
Linux Machine (New) : 355187

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: xorg-7.2 and ati-drivers-8.32.5 - Thank you Gentoo devs

[Johannes Skov Frandsen]

Hi everybody

I currently have xorg 7.2 on a 2.6.20-r7 kernel. Can't get any of the 
binary drivers to work
on my Radeon 9200 PRO card (as you might have read in previous posts), 
but the open
source drivers works with a little tweaking of xorg.conf.

I use the hardend profil.

I had the following enabled in my kernel when I tried the binary drivers 
from ati:
      Device Drivers  --->
         Character devices  --->
           <M> /dev/agpgart (AGP Support)
         Graphics support  --->
           <*> Support for frame buffer devices

I have the following settings in my make.conf:

USE="gtk gnome alsa hal avahi bash-completion"
INPUT_DEVICES="keyboard mouse"
VIDEO_CARDS="savage radeon fglrx"

and this line added in my /etc/portage/package.keywords:

x11-drivers/ati-drivers ~x86

With above settings I'm allowed to install version 8.35.5 of the ati driver.

But aticonfig can't generate a xorg file for me so I'm unable to start x, as
I haven't been able to configure xorg manually with the binary driver.

Just thought I would share..

Johannes
     

Francisco Rivas wrote:
> Hi Remy..
>
> I have xorg 7.1.1 8.36.5 ati driver and k 2.6.21 it works fine with 
> opengl...
>
> I hope this help you, and post all your questions...the people here 
> will help you...
>
> On 5/15/07, *Remy Blank* <remy.blank@pobox.com 
> <mailto:remy.blank@pobox.com>> wrote:
>
>     Remy Blank wrote:
>     > I have noticed xorg-7.2 just went stable. I am currently using
>     7.1 with
>     > the stable binary ATI drivers ati-drivers-8.32.5 and the kernel
>     > gentoo-sources-2.6.19-r5. Has anybody with the same
>     configuration done
>     > the update? Does it work for you?
>
>     Just for posterity: I have updated to xorg-7.2 and everything works
>     perfectly well. As usual, I should say. A big thank you to Gentoo
>     developers (the xorg maintainers but all others as well) for making
>     system administration as simple as it is now. Nothing ever breaks
>     these
>     days.
>
>     -- Remy
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Francisco Rivas
> Linux User (New) : #448324
> Linux Machine (New) : 355187 

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: xorg-7.2 and ati-drivers-8.32.5 - Thank you Gentoo devs

[Francisco Rivas]

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Good for all list, have a nice day...
1.- Johannes I remember, you tried with xorgcfg or xorgconfig?... I don't
remember if you test with Xorg -configure, if you don't then try..

jejejeje... excuse me.. but I can't sleep without solve that problem :D
(it's a joke), but really after you try with that do aticonfig --initial,
because, if I am not wrong, the problem is because aticonfig can't find a
"legal" xorg.conf, well with the below commands you can generate a "legal"
xorg.conf and will modify with aticonfig...

2.- Remy have you some problem with your configuration or it's only to know?

Note: Please excuse for my english, I am still learning.

Thanks for your answers :D

On 5/16/07, Johannes Skov Frandsen <joe@omesc.com> wrote:
>
> Hi everybody
>
> I currently have xorg 7.2 on a 2.6.20-r7 kernel. Can't get any of the
> binary drivers to work
> on my Radeon 9200 PRO card (as you might have read in previous posts),
> but the open
> source drivers works with a little tweaking of xorg.conf.
>
> I use the hardend profil.
>
> I had the following enabled in my kernel when I tried the binary drivers
> from ati:
>       Device Drivers  --->
>          Character devices  --->
>            <M> /dev/agpgart (AGP Support)
>          Graphics support  --->
>            <*> Support for frame buffer devices
>
> I have the following settings in my make.conf:
>
> USE="gtk gnome alsa hal avahi bash-completion"
> INPUT_DEVICES="keyboard mouse"
> VIDEO_CARDS="savage radeon fglrx"
>
> and this line added in my /etc/portage/package.keywords:
>
> x11-drivers/ati-drivers ~x86
>
> With above settings I'm allowed to install version 8.35.5 of the ati
> driver.
>
> But aticonfig can't generate a xorg file for me so I'm unable to start x,
> as
> I haven't been able to configure xorg manually with the binary driver.
>
> Just thought I would share..
>
> Johannes
>
>
> Francisco Rivas wrote:
> > Hi Remy..
> >
> > I have xorg 7.1.1 8.36.5 ati driver and k 2.6.21 it works fine with
> > opengl...
> >
> > I hope this help you, and post all your questions...the people here
> > will help you...
> >
> > On 5/15/07, *Remy Blank* <remy.blank@pobox.com
> > <mailto:remy.blank@pobox.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     Remy Blank wrote:
> >     > I have noticed xorg-7.2 just went stable. I am currently using
> >     7.1 with
> >     > the stable binary ATI drivers ati-drivers-8.32.5 and the kernel
> >     > gentoo-sources-2.6.19-r5. Has anybody with the same
> >     configuration done
> >     > the update? Does it work for you?
> >
> >     Just for posterity: I have updated to xorg-7.2 and everything works
> >     perfectly well. As usual, I should say. A big thank you to Gentoo
> >     developers (the xorg maintainers but all others as well) for making
> >     system administration as simple as it is now. Nothing ever breaks
> >     these
> >     days.
> >
> >     -- Remy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Francisco Rivas
> > Linux User (New) : #448324
> > Linux Machine (New) : 355187
>
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


-- 
Francisco Rivas
Linux User (New) : #448324
Linux Machine (New) : 355187

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[gentoo-user] Re: xorg-7.2 and ati-drivers-8.32.5 - Thank you Gentoo devs

[Remy Blank]

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Francisco Rivas wrote:
> 2.- Remy have you some problem with your configuration or it's only to know?

My original question was meant to get feedback *before* doing the
update. I updated yesterday, and everything works well. So there's no
question anymore.

-- Remy


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[gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Enrico Weigelt]

Hi folks,


I also want to say "Thank you" to the gentoo devs.

Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies
(ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated.

Cirular deps have been really sucking in SuSE and were one
of the major for dropping it to me.

Great, great thanks to the devs for forcing me to maintain my
own overlay to clean up the crap. (anyone who's interested in 
it, please give a note).


cu
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 16 May 2007 16:23:13 +0200, Enrico Weigelt wrote:

> Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies
> (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated.

Lots? If you'd posted this yesterday, I would have been able to recall
the last time I was hit with one.

> Great, great thanks to the devs for forcing me to maintain my
> own overlay to clean up the crap. (anyone who's interested in 
> it, please give a note).

I did get a circular dependency today, sdl and directfb and guess what?
The error message also contained the solution, which was to temporarily
change a USE flag.

The great thing about free software is that it all comes with a full
money back guarantee. So before you start shooting your mouth off when
something produced by volunteers in their own time fails to work for you,
stop and remember how much you paid for it and why.

Since you are clearly able to solve a problem that comes fro upstream
and which the combined might of SUSE and Gentoo has failed to do, why
not offer to help instead of posting sarcastic rants to a user support
list? $DEITY forbid, you could even file a bug describing the problem and
providing your solution.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

We are upping our standards - so up yours.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 16 May 2007 16:23:13 +0200, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> 
> > Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies
> > (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated.
> 
> Lots? If you'd posted this yesterday, I would have been able to recall
> the last time I was hit with one.

At least several. I didn't find an good solution for checking 
the whole tree yet, so I yet know some. Good candidates are 
where PDEPENDs occour. For example the Xserver.

I'm currently in the process of fixing the ebuilds in my overlay.
 
> I did get a circular dependency today, sdl and directfb and guess what?
> The error message also contained the solution, which was to temporarily
> change a USE flag.

*rofl* what a good solution. really clean. gread idea.

<snip>

> The great thing about free software is that it all comes with a full
> money back guarantee. So before you start shooting your mouth off when
> something produced by volunteers in their own time fails to work for you,
> stop and remember how much you paid for it and why.

You don't need to give me lesson on OSS, I've did enough work OSS
projects over last 12 years to know how it works.

And I'm really tired of trying to talk with learn-resistent devs who 
clearly expressed that they don't any of my help and told be to stay
away from b.g.o. So I'm maintaining my own overlay and concentrate on
getting things running instead of wasting time with certain devs.

The motivation of this mail is to inform other, probably frustrated,
users, that there's more than the official tree.

> Since you are clearly able to solve a problem that comes fro upstream
> and which the combined might of SUSE and Gentoo has failed to do, 

Which problem from the upstream ?
I'm a little bit involved in Xorg development (especially on the 
modularizing project), so if you tell me the problem, I could fix it.

The problem w/ x11-base/xorg-server are the PDEPENDs on (external) 
driver packages. I dont see any valid reason for depending the 
Xserver on drivers, which themselfes depend on the Xserver.

If you want some package which pulls in an complete Xserver installation
*and* drivers (based on certain useflags), why not just an virtual
package ? 

IMHO, there were days where it had been done so (when PDEPEND did not
yet exist). I don't know why this had changed, probably just to get 
an new feature widely used. (BTW: I do not see any valid reason for
PDEPEND anyways)

<snip>

> why not offer to help instead of posting sarcastic rants to a user 
> support list? $DEITY forbid, you could even file a bug describing 
> the problem and providing your solution.

I'm tired of trying to help where my help is not wanted. 
As already said: the devs clearly told me that I'm unwelcomes, so 
I leave them alone.

In fact, I'll provide an solution. It will be published within the
OSS-QM project. But I won't waste any second on filing any bug,
just for that it's marked invalid by folks like Jakub.


cu
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 16 May 2007 17:47:37 Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> > > Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies
> > > (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated.
> >
> > Lots? If you'd posted this yesterday, I would have been able to recall
> > the last time I was hit with one.
>
> At least several. I didn't find an good solution for checking
> the whole tree yet, so I yet know some. Good candidates are
> where PDEPENDs occour. For example the Xserver.

*What* are you talking about? PDEPENDs are packages that should be emerged 
*after* the package in question. That A depends on B to be emerged *after* A 
and B depends on A to be emerged *before* B does not produce a circular 
dependency!

The PDEPEND of xorg-server is a convenience for the user to only need to set 
VIDEO_CARDS and INPUT_DEVICES (or stick with the defaults) and have 
xorg-server pull in only the requested drivers after itself.

> If you want some package which pulls in an complete Xserver installation
> *and* drivers (based on certain useflags), why not just an virtual
> package ?

virtuals are similar to meta packages (if you look at their contents) with one 
very important difference.

virtuals provide a minimal functionality that other packages can depend on 
without caring about what provides it. meta packages are a convenience to the 
users that pulls in a bunch of packages and hence nothing is allowed to 
depend on them.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Bo Ørsted Andresen <bo.andresen@zlin.dk> wrote:

<snip>

> *What* are you talking about? PDEPENDs are packages that should be emerged 
> *after* the package in question. That A depends on B to be emerged *after* A 
> and B depends on A to be emerged *before* B does not produce a circular 
> dependency!

In some situations they're in fact circular, ie. when using binary
packages. 

BTW: I don't see any reason why the whole Xserve should be recompiled
if just some other device driver is needed.

> The PDEPEND of xorg-server is a convenience for the user to only need to set 
> VIDEO_CARDS and INPUT_DEVICES (or stick with the defaults) and have 
> xorg-server pull in only the requested drivers after itself.

Why not simply an virtual for that ?
I did it in my overlay, and it works very fine.

<snip>

> > If you want some package which pulls in an complete Xserver installation
> > *and* drivers (based on certain useflags), why not just an virtual
> > package ?
> 
> virtuals are similar to meta packages (if you look at their contents) 
> with one very important difference.
> 
> virtuals provide a minimal functionality that other packages can 
> depend on without caring about what provides it. meta packages 
> are a convenience to the users that pulls in a bunch of packages 
> and hence nothing is allowed to depend on them.

meta or virtual - where's the technical difference ? 

I don't care about how you call them, but pulling in the drivers
should not belong to the server package, but an separate one.


cu
-- 
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 Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Rob Rutherford]

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On 5/16/07, Enrico Weigelt <weigelt@metux.de> wrote:
>
> Which problem from the upstream ?
> I'm a little bit involved in Xorg development (especially on the
> modularizing project), so if you tell me the problem, I could fix it.
>
> The problem w/ x11-base/xorg-server are the PDEPENDs on (external)
> driver packages. I dont see any valid reason for depending the
> Xserver on drivers, which themselfes depend on the Xserver.
>
> If you want some package which pulls in an complete Xserver installation
> *and* drivers (based on certain useflags), why not just an virtual
> package ?
>
> IMHO, there were days where it had been done so (when PDEPEND did not
> yet exist). I don't know why this had changed, probably just to get
> an new feature widely used. (BTW: I do not see any valid reason for
> PDEPEND anyways)


Thanks, this was much more informative and useful than:

> I also want to say "Thank you" to the gentoo devs.
>
> Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies
> (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated.
>
> Cirular deps have been really sucking in SuSE and were one
> of the major for dropping it to me.
>
> Great, great thanks to the devs for forcing me to maintain my
> own overlay to clean up the crap. (anyone who's interested in
> it, please give a note).

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 16 May 2007 17:47:37 +0200, Enrico Weigelt wrote:

>>  Lots? If you'd posted this yesterday, I would have been able to recall
> > the last time I was hit with one.  
> 
> At least several. I didn't find an good solution for checking 
> the whole tree yet, so I yet know some. Good candidates are 
> where PDEPENDs occour. For example the Xserver.

As Bo has already explained, PDEPENDS cannot cause circular dependencies,
in fact they prevent them.

> > I did get a circular dependency today, sdl and directfb and guess
> > what? The error message also contained the solution, which was to
> > temporarily change a USE flag.  
> 
> *rofl* what a good solution. really clean. gread idea.

Yes, it is a good solution, because the circular dependency is caused by
changed USE flags in the first place. You did notice my use of the word
"temporarily", didn't you? If A depends on B and B depends on A, you
build A without support for B, then you can safely install B and A again
with the features you wanted. This is nothing to do with portage but a
consequence of building packages from different projects from source.
Naturally, you won't see this with a binary distro, because someone has
already gone through the "build A without B support, build B, build A
again" process, but without the benefit of USE flags to make it much
easier.

Having said that, portage ought to be able to handle this situation
better than it does, and work in continuing in that direction. Anal
sarcasm does not shorten the development cycle for such features.

> > The great thing about free software is that it all comes with a full
> > money back guarantee. So before you start shooting your mouth off when
> > something produced by volunteers in their own time fails to work for
> > you, stop and remember how much you paid for it and why.  
> 
> You don't need to give me lesson on OSS, I've did enough work OSS
> projects over last 12 years to know how it works.

Really, that comes as something of a surprise after reading your posts.

> And I'm really tired of trying to talk with learn-resistent devs who 
> clearly expressed that they don't any of my help and told be to stay
> away from b.g.o. So I'm maintaining my own overlay and concentrate on
> getting things running instead of wasting time with certain devs.

"Certain devs"? Your previous batch of insults was aimed at "the Gentoo
devs". Are you becoming more selective over whom you wish to impugn?

> > Since you are clearly able to solve a problem that comes fro upstream
> > and which the combined might of SUSE and Gentoo has failed to do,   
> 
> Which problem from the upstream ?

Interdependency of unrelated packages.

> The problem w/ x11-base/xorg-server are the PDEPENDs on (external) 
> driver packages. I dont see any valid reason for depending the 
> Xserver on drivers, which themselfes depend on the Xserver.

The server does not depend on the drivers, it depends on them, it
wouldn't be much use without at least three drivers.

> IMHO, there were days where it had been done so (when PDEPEND did not
> yet exist). I don't know why this had changed, probably just to get 
> an new feature widely used. (BTW: I do not see any valid reason for
> PDEPEND anyways)

Which probably says more about your understanding of how things work than
it does about their usefulness.

> In fact, I'll provide an solution. It will be published within the
> OSS-QM project. But I won't waste any second on filing any bug,
> just for that it's marked invalid by folks like Jakub.

Jakub is no longer a bug-wrangler, or a dev, he retired last month.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

New: Different color from previous model.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

Hi,

> > At least several. I didn't find an good solution for checking 
> > the whole tree yet, so I yet know some. Good candidates are 
> > where PDEPENDs occour. For example the Xserver.
> 
> As Bo has already explained, PDEPENDS cannot cause circular dependencies,
> in fact they prevent them.

Or in other words: an way of making circular dependencies some
bit less painful.

<snip>

> Yes, it is a good solution, because the circular dependency is 
> caused by changed USE flags in the first place. You did notice 
> my use of the word "temporarily", didn't you? 

If the package management cannot handle such cases 100% automatic,
I'd consider it as buggy.

Just my personal oppinion, and I'll fix it at my site. 
Anyone who shares my oppions and likes to join me, feel free
to give a note.

<snip>

> If A depends on B and B depends on A, you build A without support 
> for B, then you can safely install B and A again with the features 
> you wanted. 

Great idea. Lots of redundant compiles and manual work just because
unclean dependencies.

<snip>

> > > Since you are clearly able to solve a problem that comes fro upstream
> > > and which the combined might of SUSE and Gentoo has failed to do,   
> > 
> > Which problem from the upstream ?
> 
> Interdependency of unrelated packages.

In case of the Xserver ? 

Okay, mesa still suxx, but the borderline between server and 
drivers is clear.

Let's see if we get the driver API moved out to its own package,
so we it'll be some bit clearer (could also make licensing issues
some bit easier), but that's another story.

<snip>

> > The problem w/ x11-base/xorg-server are the PDEPENDs on (external) 
> > driver packages. I dont see any valid reason for depending the 
> > Xserver on drivers, which themselfes depend on the Xserver.
> 
> The server does not depend on the drivers, it depends on them, it
> wouldn't be much use without at least three drivers.

It *P*DEPENDs on them. That's an (strange) kind of special dependency
which is pulled in *after* install, instead of *before*. But still 
it is an dependency.

So, Xserver dependens on driver(s), drivers depend on Xserver. 
Circular dependency.

q.e.d.

> > In fact, I'll provide an solution. It will be published within the
> > OSS-QM project. But I won't waste any second on filing any bug,
> > just for that it's marked invalid by folks like Jakub.
> 
> Jakub is no longer a bug-wrangler, or a dev, he retired last month.

Ah, good things still happen ? ;P

Maybe we could have another try:
I'll publish my overlay in a few days. Feel free to try it out 
and get some stuff into offical tree.


cu
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
 	http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce
 Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Donnerstag, 17. Mai 2007, Enrico Weigelt wrote:

>
> It *P*DEPENDs on them. That's an (strange) kind of special dependency
> which is pulled in *after* install, instead of *before*. But still
> it is an dependency.
>
> So, Xserver dependens on driver(s), drivers depend on Xserver.
> Circular dependency.
>
> q.e.d.
>

aren't you ashamed of yourself, when you post stupid stuff like that?


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
>  	http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce
>  Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
> 	http://patches.metux.de/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

After all the rubbish you sent to this mailing list, I know exactly whom I 
will never pay for IT services.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 17 May 2007 18:03:21 +0200, Enrico Weigelt wrote:

> > If A depends on B and B depends on A, you build A without support 
> > for B, then you can safely install B and A again with the features 
> > you wanted. 
> 
> Great idea. Lots of redundant compiles and manual work just because
> unclean dependencies.

Lots? This new install has over 1000 packages on it, there was exactly
one circular depends, brought about by my changing USE flags too much. It
took around a minute to fix. If you are really that limited for CPU
cycles that this is a problem, I suggest you should not be using a source
based distro.

> Let's see if we get the driver API moved out to its own package,
> so we it'll be some bit clearer (could also make licensing issues
> some bit easier), but that's another story.

Yes, and one for the XOrg list, since Gentoo's policy is to stay as lose
to upstream as is feasible.

> It *P*DEPENDs on them. That's an (strange) kind of special dependency
> which is pulled in *after* install, instead of *before*. But still 
> it is an dependency.
> 
> So, Xserver dependens on driver(s), drivers depend on Xserver. 
> Circular dependency.

no ot doesn't, it PDEPENDS on them, thereby removing any circular
dependency.

> q.e.d.

Quite Erroneous Debate?

> > Jakub is no longer a bug-wrangler, or a dev, he retired last month.
> 
> Ah, good things still happen ? ;P

Jakub was very good at his job, but he does have an attitude problem.

Are you trying to emulate him, you are already halfway there?


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If at first you do succeed, try to hide your astonishment.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Kent Fredric]

> Quite Erroneous Debate?
>
> > > Jakub is no longer a bug-wrangler, or a dev, he retired last month.
> >
> > Ah, good things still happen ? ;P
>
> Jakub was very good at his job, but he does have an attitude problem.
>
> Are you trying to emulate him, you are already halfway there?
>

Give the guy a break :P. When your having to deal with lots of noobs
being retarded telling you you're wrong on a daily basis when you know
otherwise, I guess most people get frustrated at it :P.

So lets not be bashing him, especially when hes not around to fend for
himself eh?

Imo, the cyclic dep problem could be solved as thus,

A depends B
    B depends  C||A

Where C is a minimalist subset of A required for building B, which is
only depended on if A is not present.
A is also a replacement for C.

So the flow would go like such.

Emerge A:
  * depends on b
     * A is missing, so depend on C
*emerges C*
*emerges B*
*removes C*  <-- otherwise  A & C containing the same files = headache
*emerges A*

Yes, indeed I agree that we could just do this by hand by changing a
USE flag, but we should at least be open to the idea of looking for a
way to automatically resolve the problem. Computers exist to make our
life easier, not the other way around :)

-- 
Kent
ruby -e '[1, 2, 4, 7, 0, 9, 5, 8, 3, 10, 11, 6, 12, 13].each{|x|
print "enNOSPicAMreil kdrtf@gma.com"[(2*x)..(2*x+1)]}'
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Kent Fredric <kentfredric@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi folks,

> Imo, the cyclic dep problem could be solved as thus,
> 
> A depends B
>    B depends  C||A
> 
> Where C is a minimalist subset of A required for building B, 
> which is only depended on if A is not present.
> A is also a replacement for C.

Beware of conflicts !
AFAIK portage cannot handle them by itself, instead aborts and 
leaves the job to the user.

> So the flow would go like such.
> 
> Emerge A:
>  * depends on b
>     * A is missing, so depend on C
> *emerges C*
> *emerges B*
> *removes C*  <-- otherwise  A & C containing the same files = headache
> *emerges A*

Who exactly controls this flow ?
portage or the user ? 

> Computers exist to make our life easier, not the other way around :)

ACK. An "ideal" system would be able to do it all alone, the user 
just tells what he wants. Of course ideal != realistic, but IMHO 
its good to go into the ideal direction as far as possible.

BTW: some people expressed (within this thread), that Gentoo was too 
easy to use and should be made more complicated. Funny, isn't it ?


Ah, just in case that 99% of the people didn't actually read my 
postings, I'll just say it again:

The circular dependencies between Xserver and drivers do not come 
from upstream. They're artificial. If we just want an simple-to-use
package which gets the Xserver *and* drivers based on useflags
(which IMHO is an good idea), it's quite trivial to do this by an 
virtual/meta package. I've did it and it works good. You can get
it from my overlay via CVS:

CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous@nibiru.metux.de:/repositories/cvs/oss-qm
password: annymous
module: oss-qm-overlay
  

cu
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
 	http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce
 Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 20 May 2007 18:49:31 +0200, Enrico Weigelt wrote:

> The circular dependencies between Xserver and drivers do not come 
> from upstream. They're artificial. If we just want an simple-to-use
> package which gets the Xserver *and* drivers based on useflags
> (which IMHO is an good idea), it's quite trivial to do this by an 
> virtual/meta package. I've did it and it works good. You can get
> it from my overlay via CVS:

How is this different prom portage installing the server and required
drivers according to USE flag settings?

VIDEO_CARDS is expanded to USE flags to install only the drivers you
need.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Neil Walker]

Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> The circular dependencies between Xserver and drivers do not come 
> from upstream. They're artificial. If we just want an simple-to-use
> package which gets the Xserver *and* drivers based on useflags
> (which IMHO is an good idea), it's quite trivial to do this by an 
> virtual/meta package. I've did it and it works good. You can get
> it from my overlay via CVS:
>   

You totally baffle me. As I've previously stated, I just installed 
Gentoo with xorg, kde, etc. on a new machine and there were no circular 
dependencies or any other problems. The whole lot emerged without error 
and installed my selected driver, nvidia. So where is the problem that 
you are supposedly seeing?


Be lucky,

Neil

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[kashani]

Enrico Weigelt wrote:

> BTW: some people expressed (within this thread), that Gentoo was too 
> easy to use and should be made more complicated. Funny, isn't it ?

	No, that is not funny, but I'll tell you what is humorous. That all 
three posters involved in saying Gentoo was too easy were speaking 
sarcastically and then watching you try to use it to prove some point 
other than the obvious fact that you have no idea what you're talking 
about. That my friend is pure comedy.

kashani
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Andrey Gerasimenko]

On Sat, 19 May 2007 07:00:58 +0400, Kent Fredric <kentfredric@gmail.com>  
wrote:

> ...
>
> Imo, the cyclic dep problem could be solved as thus,
>
> A depends B
>     B depends  C||A
>
> Where C is a minimalist subset of A required for building B, which is
> only depended on if A is not present.
> A is also a replacement for C.
>
> So the flow would go like such.
>
> Emerge A:
>   * depends on b
>      * A is missing, so depend on C
> *emerges C*
> *emerges B*
> *removes C*  <-- otherwise  A & C containing the same files = headache
> *emerges A*
>
> Yes, indeed I agree that we could just do this by hand by changing a
> USE flag, but we should at least be open to the idea of looking for a
> way to automatically resolve the problem. Computers exist to make our
> life easier, not the other way around :)
>

Just curious: why nobody suggests to allow Portage to use the preferred  
method of binary distros: emerge several interdependent packages in one  
transaction. Just prepare the source for A and B and compile both in any  
order. IMHO this is what the ideal system should do.

-- 
Andrei Gerasimenko
--
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Alan McKinnon]

On Monday 21 May 2007, Andrey Gerasimenko wrote:
> Just curious: why nobody suggests to allow Portage to use the
> preferred   method of binary distros: emerge several interdependent
> packages in one transaction. Just prepare the source for A and B and
> compile both in any order. IMHO this is what the ideal system should
> do.

Easy:

A binary distro dumps a load of files on the disk, and apart from an 
optional pre- or post-install script, that's the entire install .

Gentoo is a SOURCE distro. It compiles stuff, and the stuff it links to 
MUST be on the disk before the linker will link it. If B depends on A, 
make B will fail if the required files in A are not present.

alan

-- 
Optimists say the glass is half full,
Pessimists say the glass is half empty,
Developers say wtf is the glass twice as big as it needs to be?

Alan McKinnon
alan at linuxholdings dot co dot za
+27 82, double three seven, one nine three five
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Hans-Werner Hilse]

Hi,

On Mon, 21 May 2007 13:57:14 +0400 "Andrey Gerasimenko" <gak@kaluga.ru>
wrote:

> Just curious: why nobody suggests to allow Portage to use the
> preferred method of binary distros: emerge several interdependent
> packages in one transaction.

Because this just wouldn't work. They're not called "dependencies"
without reason. Or is it a transactional rollback functionality you're
talking about?

> Just prepare the source for A and B and
> compile both in any order. IMHO this is what the ideal system should
> do.

Certainly not. How do you want to link against a library that doesn't
exist yet, even if theoretically you might be able to create a stub
after running ./configure (for automake based build infrastructure)...

-hwh
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[kashani]

Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> * Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>> I did get a circular dependency today, sdl and directfb and guess what?
>> The error message also contained the solution, which was to temporarily
>> change a USE flag.
> 
> *rofl* what a good solution. really clean. gread idea.
> 
> <snip>

Is it the end of another semester already[1][2]? Are we already due to 
be subjected to the highly dubious ideas of Mr. Weigelt sporadically 
over summer break?

kashani

1. search for Enrico Weigelt on gmane and sort by date in the Gentoo lists.
2. Aren't we due for top posting vs bottom posting[3] again?
3. or maybe "newbies suck and Gentoo should be hard"[4]
4. I like to think there are circadian like cycles on the Internet
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Iain Buchanan]

On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 15:51 -0700, kashani wrote:

> Is it the end of another semester already[1][2]? Are we already due to 
> be subjected to the highly dubious ideas of Mr. Weigelt sporadically 
> over summer break?
> 
> kashani
> 
> 1. search for Enrico Weigelt on gmane and sort by date in the Gentoo lists.
> 2. Aren't we due for top posting vs bottom posting[3] again?
> 3. or maybe "newbies suck and Gentoo should be hard"[4]
> 4. I like to think there are circadian like cycles on the Internet

Gentoo is becoming too easy to use.  We need to keep up the smoke and
mirrors.  Stop being so nice everyone, you'll attract more newbies!

I think I'll raise a bug about this.
-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere.
		-- Groucho Marx

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Mark Shields]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1063 bytes --]

On 5/16/07, Iain Buchanan <iaindb@netspace.net.au> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 15:51 -0700, kashani wrote:
>
> > Is it the end of another semester already[1][2]? Are we already due to
> > be subjected to the highly dubious ideas of Mr. Weigelt sporadically
> > over summer break?
> >
> > kashani
> >
> > 1. search for Enrico Weigelt on gmane and sort by date in the Gentoo
> lists.
> > 2. Aren't we due for top posting vs bottom posting[3] again?
> > 3. or maybe "newbies suck and Gentoo should be hard"[4]
> > 4. I like to think there are circadian like cycles on the Internet
>
> Gentoo is becoming too easy to use.  We need to keep up the smoke and
> mirrors.  Stop being so nice everyone, you'll attract more newbies!
>
> I think I'll raise a bug about this.
> --
> Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>
>
> A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going
> somewhere.
>                 -- Groucho Marx
>
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

I'm gonna file a bug report about your bug report.

-- 
- Mark Shields

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 16 May 2007 16:54:13 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 16 May 2007 16:23:13 +0200, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> > Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies
> > (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated.
>
> Lots? If you'd posted this yesterday, I would[n't] have been able to recall
> the last time I was hit with one.
>
> > Great, great thanks to the devs for forcing me to maintain my
> > own overlay to clean up the crap. (anyone who's interested in
> > it, please give a note).
>
> I did get a circular dependency today, sdl and directfb and guess what?
> The error message also contained the solution, which was to temporarily
> change a USE flag.

Circular dependencies are mostly a problem for new users since as soon as the 
dependencies are installed the circular dependencies are satisfied and hence 
irrelevant.

The real problem comes when a new user right after finishing install sets a 
bunch of use flags and attempts to emerge gnome or kde only to be greeted 
with 40 lines or more of circular dependencies.

Enrico's 'brilliant' solution is to split packages like Debian (which again 
makes me wonder why he doesn't just switch back to that). The route the 
Gentoo devs are going to take, however, is to improve portage which 
unfortunately tends to drag on... For the impatient this is one of things 
that paludis does a lot better than portage.

For the general case I fully agree with the rest of your post.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 16 May 2007 17:51:20 +0200, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:

> Circular dependencies are mostly a problem for new users since as soon
> as the dependencies are installed the circular dependencies are
> satisfied and hence irrelevant.

I know, it was in a new install that I got hit.

> The real problem comes when a new user right after finishing install
> sets a bunch of use flags and attempts to emerge gnome or kde only to
> be greeted with 40 lines or more of circular dependencies.

You mean I shouldn't have copied over a make.conf from another machine
without checking? ;-)

I think the important point about this was that it was such a trivial
hiccup to fix - USE="-directfb" emerge -1 libsdl - then continue with the
previous emerge.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Dale]

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Neil Bothwick wrote:
>
>
> You mean I shouldn't have copied over a make.conf from another machine
> without checking? ;-)
>
> I think the important point about this was that it was such a trivial
> hiccup to fix - USE="-directfb" emerge -1 libsdl - then continue with the
> previous emerge.
>
>
>   

Neil, I know you know more about this than I do but I always do a emerge
-uN world after I change my USE line in make.conf.  Would that not be a
prudent thing to do?  Seems that would fix that but it may mean
compiling something twice though.

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-)


-- 
www.myspace.com/-remove-me-dalek1967

Copy n paste then remove the -remove-me- part.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 16 May 2007 17:40:20 -0500, Dale wrote:

> > I think the important point about this was that it was such a trivial
> > hiccup to fix - USE="-directfb" emerge -1 libsdl - then continue with
> > the previous emerge.

> Neil, I know you know more about this than I do but I always do a emerge
> -uN world after I change my USE line in make.conf.  Would that not be a
> prudent thing to do?  Seems that would fix that but it may mean
> compiling something twice though.

It wouldn't have helped in this case as neither package was installed,
hence the USE-enabled conflict, each package needed the other to install.

When updating, changes i USE flags rarely cause problems, and will do
even less so when we get use-deps.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional!!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Bo Ørsted Andresen <bo.andresen@zlin.dk> wrote:

<snip>

> Enrico's 'brilliant' solution is to split packages like Debian 

Ah, now it get interesting. 

The primary directive: "We are not Debian", 
If Debian does something, Gentoo must do it completely different.

*lol*

<snip>

> (which again makes me wonder why he doesn't just switch back to that). 

In other words: "I don't like your oppinion, and dont want to
hear anything about that. So please go far far way. And lets
build an great Anti-Debian wall."

;-O


cu
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
 	http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce
 Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
	http://patches.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman]

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Hash: SHA512

Come on, Enrico, you KNOW you're acting like the typical mailing list troll, so, would you please
unsbuscribe, shut up, or something like that? You definitely need to read HOWTO Critize
(constructively).

And I could use some support from the rest of the list here :)

- --
Arturo "Buanzo" Busleiman - Consultor Independiente en Seguridad Informatica
OpenPGP for HTTP: New Web-Auth Scheme: http://freshmeat.net/articles/view/2599
Consulting and Secure Mail Hosting: http://www.buanzo.com.ar/pro/
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

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On Thursday 17 May 2007, "Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman" <buanzo@buanzo.com.ar> 
wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular 
dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]':
> Come on, Enrico, you KNOW you're acting like the typical mailing list
> troll, so, would you please unsbuscribe, shut up, or something like
> that? You definitely need to read HOWTO Critize (constructively).
>
> And I could use some support from the rest of the list here :)

He's got *some* points, but he's being intentionally antagonistic and 
taking a "my way or the highway" attitude.  [Actually, maybe his position 
would be better stated a "'the Debian way' or the highway", but I 
digress.]  So, yeah he's a troll, but at least it's a good troll.

-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.                     ,= ,-_-. =. 
bss03@volumehost.net                      ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy           `-'(. .)`-' 
http://iguanasuicide.org/                      \_/     

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Thursday 17 May 2007 18:10:29 Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> > Enrico's 'brilliant' solution is to split packages like Debian
>
> Ah, now it get interesting.
>
> The primary directive: "We are not Debian",
> If Debian does something, Gentoo must do it completely different.

Nonono. It's: We are not a binary distro so we don't need the workarounds that 
binary distros need. What we need is an improved package manager (and a lot 
of work is being put into that as we speak..).

> > (which again makes me wonder why he doesn't just switch back to that).
>
> In other words: "I don't like your oppinion, and dont want to
> hear anything about that. So please go far far way. And lets
> build an great Anti-Debian wall."

This isn't anti-Debian. This is anti-trolling and anti-ranting. Please take 
your trolling and ranting elsewhere.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Dan Farrell]

On Wed, 16 May 2007 15:54:13 +0100
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> The great thing about free software is that it all comes with a full
> money back guarantee. So before you start shooting your mouth off when
> something produced by volunteers in their own time fails to work for
> you, stop and remember how much you paid for it and why.

And how much they got paid to write it.  

Perhaps I'll take this oppertunity to say:  Thanks, to everyone who
helped make gentoo what it is today.  You do a fabulous job.  This is
the best distro on the planet ; )

Present company excluded, I begin to feel resentful towards people that
complain but offer nothing to help.  I _don't_ want to offend anyone
reading -- this mostly happens on the forums -- but c'mon people, if you
know whats wrong, why not help out the devs instead of mocking them?
This is supposed to be a self-supporting community, remember?  

At any rate, I just installed X last weekend and had no big problems.
It may not work for everybody 100% of the time, but it works for me
99.9% of the time, and the .1% is almost always my own fault.  Remember
how many people are collaborating on this project, and think of how
difficult testing must be when there are literally thousands and
thousands of hardware and software configurations.  If something's
broken, why not help them fix?  They'd probably really appreciate it --
and i _know_ i would.  

Thanks again, to the gentoo team and the community here.  
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Francisco Rivas]

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Hi Enrico,

> I also want to say "Thank you" to the gentoo devs.

Yes, thanks for a very very great job... I was installed gentoo a few months
ago and I don't want anything else...

> Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies
> (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated.

are you about this?, if your answer is yes, please feel free to post your
errors...

> Cirular deps have been really sucking in SuSE and were one
> of the major for dropping it to me.

SuSE != Gentoo? did you understand that?, SuSE is not bad at all but have a
lot of things wrong...

> Great, great thanks to the devs for forcing me to maintain my
> own overlay to clean up the crap. (anyone who's interested in
> it, please give a note).

Believe me, it's a VERY good thing you have your own overlay, actually if
you think what all of this great work is "crap" and you have the tools or
knowledge to clean, feel free to help, be a constructive critic, not
destructive..it's very important more people to clean, to be a better
gentoo.

Please don't be sarcastic it's not necessary, the community don't need
troubles. Actually, I think you must to be gracefully to have this good,
wonderfully and excellent community... All people do this work because they
want, no pay for that, no money between their work and their intentions, all
work is free as in freedom. Please remember when you want more, give more,
when you need more please give more not sarcastic. It's very important, now
you are talking to many people in the list so much of thems are very very
good professionals and enthusiasts and activists of free software
specifically of gentoo.

Please be more corteuos and give the respect when you refer to this
community, remember a good rules... feel free (totally) to do all your
questions, ask whatever you want the gentoo community is there for help
people disinterestedly...live free, feel free, be free, give freedom..

that's what i think, Thanks in advance.

On 5/16/07, Enrico Weigelt <weigelt@metux.de> wrote:
>
>
> Hi folks,
>
>
> I also want to say "Thank you" to the gentoo devs.
>
> Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies
> (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated.
>
> Cirular deps have been really sucking in SuSE and were one
> of the major for dropping it to me.
>
> Great, great thanks to the devs for forcing me to maintain my
> own overlay to clean up the crap. (anyone who's interested in
> it, please give a note).
>
>
> cu
> --
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
>         http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce
> Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
>         http://patches.metux.de/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


-- 
Francisco Rivas
Linux User (New) : #448324
Linux Machine (New) : 355187

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Jerry McBride]

On Wednesday 16 May 2007 10:23:13 am Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
>
> I also want to say "Thank you" to the gentoo devs.
>
> Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies
> (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated.
>

?

I haven't seen one... in years...

> Cirular deps have been really sucking in SuSE and were one
> of the major for dropping it to me.
>
> Great, great thanks to the devs for forcing me to maintain my
> own overlay to clean up the crap. (anyone who's interested in
> it, please give a note).
>

I think maybe you should look your gentoo over again... you've done something 
really STUPID.




-- 


Jerry McBride
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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]

[Dale]

Jerry McBride wrote:
>
> ?
>
> I haven't seen one... in years...
>
>   
>
> I think maybe you should look your gentoo over again... you've done something 
> really STUPID.
>
>
>
>
>   

I haven't had one in a long while either.  I have ran into blocked
packages or something minor like that but that's to be expected.  Gentoo
is growing so it has to bust a button on occasion.

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-)  :-)

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Copy n paste then remove the -remove-me- part.

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