[gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[felix]

Why do --nocolor and --color=n not work (sys-apps/portage-2.1.2.3)?

Why does the damned thing default to thinking I want blaring bizarre
colors scattered all over my screen?

What bozo thought all those colors were legible on every frikking
terminal and checking for --nocolor was unnecesary?

I am so tired of this crap.  Even editing /usr/bin/emerge to always
set output.havecolor to 0 doesn't disable color.  I have to copy and
paste into an editor just to read the error messages.  It has always
been so; most portage commands simply aassume I want all sorts of
colorized messages on my screen.  Oooh, let's find a use for yellow,
and green, and blue, and red, well of course red, but let's make sure
we use EVERY FREAKING COLOR IN THE BOOK just because, well, BECAUSE WE
CAN.  Let's IGNORE the TERM environmental variable while we're at it.

I CAN'T EVEN DISABLE IT BY SETTING TERM TO vt100.

And if ALL THESE CAPS distress you and you think I am shouting, well
goodness gracious, NOW YOU KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT COLORIZATION RUN AMUCK.

Retch.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 04 April 2007 06:17:39 felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> Why do --nocolor and --color=n not work (sys-apps/portage-2.1.2.3)?
[SNIP]
> I am so tired of this crap.  Even editing /usr/bin/emerge to always
> set output.havecolor to 0 doesn't disable color.  I have to copy and
> paste into an editor just to read the error messages.

Easier to just pipe the output into less.

> It has always been so; most portage commands simply aassume I want all sorts
> of colorized messages on my screen.

And it never occurred to you to just file a bug at bugs.gentoo.org? How are 
devs supposed to fix your bug if you don't report it? (that's rhetorical).

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Dale]

felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> Why do --nocolor and --color=n not work (sys-apps/portage-2.1.2.3)?
>
> Why does the damned thing default to thinking I want blaring bizarre
> colors scattered all over my screen?
>
> What bozo thought all those colors were legible on every frikking
> terminal and checking for --nocolor was unnecesary?
>
> I am so tired of this crap.  Even editing /usr/bin/emerge to always
> set output.havecolor to 0 doesn't disable color.  I have to copy and
> paste into an editor just to read the error messages.  It has always
> been so; most portage commands simply aassume I want all sorts of
> colorized messages on my screen.  Oooh, let's find a use for yellow,
> and green, and blue, and red, well of course red, but let's make sure
> we use EVERY FREAKING COLOR IN THE BOOK just because, well, BECAUSE WE
> CAN.  Let's IGNORE the TERM environmental variable while we're at it.
>
> I CAN'T EVEN DISABLE IT BY SETTING TERM TO vt100.
>
> And if ALL THESE CAPS distress you and you think I am shouting, well
> goodness gracious, NOW YOU KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT COLORIZATION RUN AMUCK.
>
> Retch.
>
>   

I thought I was the only one that had to copy and paste it to Kwrite to
read it.  Sorry to say I'm not alone here.  :-(  He seems, well, . . .
pissed.  :/

Dale

:-)

-- 
www.myspace.com/-remove-me-dalek1967

Copy n paste then remove the -remove-me- part.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[felix]

On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 06:29:45AM +0200, Bo ?rsted Andresen wrote:
> On Wednesday 04 April 2007 06:17:39 felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> > Why do --nocolor and --color=n not work (sys-apps/portage-2.1.2.3)?
> [SNIP]
> > I am so tired of this crap.  Even editing /usr/bin/emerge to always
> > set output.havecolor to 0 doesn't disable color.  I have to copy and
> > paste into an editor just to read the error messages.
> 
> Easier to just pipe the output into less.

Doesn't always work.  Whatever generates the color ignores TERM and
--nocolor and color=n, and doesn't always pay attention to where the
output is going either.

> 
> > It has always been so; most portage commands simply aassume I want all sorts
> > of colorized messages on my screen.
> 
> And it never occurred to you to just file a bug at bugs.gentoo.org? How are 
> devs supposed to fix your bug if you don't report it? (that's rhetorical).

Certainly has, but the colorization decision has moved around enough
that I figure it was a moving target.  What would I file it against,
every python utility that screws it up?  I figured it was easier to
just edit color out of the damned programs after each update.
Sometimes I don't need to, sometimes I do.

Besides, the colorization is so blatantly awful as to obviously be
someone's pet little eye candy contribution; any bug report is very
likely to be dismissed as just some geriatric fossile who fondly
remembers teletypes.

This current outburst was a result of my dismay at finding the
colorization institutionalized in the output package, which a quick
grep didn't find, and editing havecolor = 0 all over didn't fix it
either.  Maybe, if it is now centralized, a bug report might actually
do some good.  But based on past performance, it will no doubt shift
around to some other package in a few weeks, so I will wait and see.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 04 April 2007 07:13:06 felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> > > I have to copy and paste into an editor just to read the error messages.
> >
> > Easier to just pipe the output into less.
>
> Doesn't always work.  Whatever generates the color ignores TERM and
> --nocolor and color=n, and doesn't always pay attention to where the
> output is going either.

Well, as stated; that's a bug. Report it.

> > > It has always been so; most portage commands simply aassume I want all
> > > sorts of colorized messages on my screen.
> >
> > And it never occurred to you to just file a bug at bugs.gentoo.org? How
> > are devs supposed to fix your bug if you don't report it? (that's
> > rhetorical).
>
> Certainly has, but the colorization decision has moved around enough
> that I figure it was a moving target.  What would I file it against,
> every python utility that screws it up?
[SNIP]

Weren't you talking about portage? In that case you should obviously file it 
against portage.. But yeah, any app that has a --nocolor equivalent that 
doesn't work deserves a bug report.. Even for apps that don't it's reasonable 
to file it as an enhancement request.

> Besides, the colorization is so blatantly awful as to obviously be
> someone's pet little eye candy contribution; any bug report is very
> likely to be dismissed as just some geriatric fossile who fondly
> remembers teletypes.

First of all I believe most people (including myself) very much prefer colors 
over no colors (no I cannot qualify with any numbers..). That does not, 
however, mean that the pipe detection and --color switch etc. shouldn't be 
honoured. It should (and it does here). Secondly, how did you come up with 
the idea that a bug report would be dismissed if you never filed one?

[SNIP]
> But based on past performance, it will no doubt shift around to some other
> package in a few weeks, so I will wait and see. 

'Past performance'? 'Some other package' (are you still speaking of the 
package manager)? 

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Roy Wright]

Dale wrote:
> I thought I was the only one that had to copy and paste it to Kwrite to
> read it.  Sorry to say I'm not alone here.  :-(  He seems, well, . . .
> pissed.  :/
>
>   

The beryl negate feature is good for interactive viewing of
these insane color schemes (using both bright yellow and
dark blue in foreground means one or the other will be
impossible to read regardless of background color).

While beryl mitigates the problem for interactive viewing,
it still is a pain for scripting.  Here's an example from last
night's cron job:

echo "Syncing overlays..."
layman -S

produces email message containing:

Syncing overlays...
svn: Working copy '/usr/portage/local/layman/sunrise' locked
svn: run 'svn cleanup' to remove locks (type 'svn help cleanup' for details)
^[[32;01m* ^[[39;49;00mRunning command "/usr/bin/svn update "/usr/portage/local/layman/sunrise""...
^[[33;01m* ^[[39;49;00m
^[[33;01m* ^[[39;49;00mErrors:
^[[33;01m* ^[[39;49;00m------
^[[33;01m* ^[[39;49;00m
^[[33;01m* ^[[39;49;00mFailed to sync overlay "sunrise".
^[[33;01m* ^[[39;49;00mError was: Syncing overlay "sunrise" returned status 256!
^[[33;01m* ^[[39;49;00m


Have fun,
Roy

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Graham Murray]

Bo Ørsted Andresen <bo.andresen@zlin.dk> writes:

> First of all I believe most people (including myself) very much prefer colors 
> over no colors (no I cannot qualify with any numbers..). That does not, 
> however, mean that the pipe detection and --color switch etc. shouldn't be 
> honoured. It should (and it does here).

Though, as less can display colours, it might be good if the pipe
detection did *not* disable colour output but require the user to use
the --no-color switch to disable them.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 04 April 2007 08:19:47 Graham Murray wrote:
> Bo Ørsted Andresen <bo.andresen@zlin.dk> writes:
> > First of all I believe most people (including myself) very much prefer
> > colors over no colors (no I cannot qualify with any numbers..). That does
> > not, however, mean that the pipe detection and --color switch etc.
> > shouldn't be honoured. It should (and it does here).
>
> Though, as less can display colours, it might be good if the pipe
> detection did *not* disable colour output but require the user to use
> the --no-color switch to disable them.

Not really. Just use --color=y if you want colors through a pipe.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Bothwick]

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Hello Roy Wright,

> The beryl negate feature is good for interactive viewing of
> these insane color schemes (using both bright yellow and
> dark blue in foreground means one or the other will be
> impossible to read regardless of background color).

http://gentoo-wiki.com/TIP_Remap_Portage_Colors

Of course, this only apples to portage programs. It's up the the authors
of other utilities whether they use this, but it would be worth filing a
bug against anything that doesn't.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

DCE seeks DTE for mutual exchange of data.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[felix]

On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 07:36:49AM +0200, Bo ?rsted Andresen wrote:

> Weren't you talking about portage? In that case you should obviously file it 
> against portage.. But yeah, any app that has a --nocolor equivalent that 
> doesn't work deserves a bug report.. Even for apps that don't it's reasonable 
> to file it as an enhancement request.

Oh for pete's sake, don't be so literal.  Esearch has screwed up.
Emerge has screwed up.  Revdep-rebuild has screwed up.  Stop reading
the leaves on the trees and paya ttention to the forest.  Your quibbly
attitude is exactly the petulant behavior which makes me not want to
waste my time filing bug reports on somebody's pet eye candy.

> First of all I believe most people (including myself) very much prefer colors 
> over no colors (no I cannot qualify with any numbers..). That does not, 
> however, mean that the pipe detection and --color switch etc. shouldn't be 
> honoured. It should (and it does here). Secondly, how did you come up with 
> the idea that a bug report would be dismissed if you never filed one?

The UNIX standard for ages has been simple text output.  Why must
gentoo add trendy colors which change every time some eye candy
fanatic gets a bug up his butt to change colors when he gets bored
with the old fashioned colors?  the default ought to be colors OFF and
you have to ask to get them.

I choose fonts small enough to get maximum density with minimum eye
strain.  The only way I could read these colors would be to increase
the font size and decrease the density.  If gentoo developers think
that a wise trade off when almost no other utility uses colors so much
and so horribly, then gentoo is broken by design and no amount of bug
reportage will change a damned thing.  Harmony is a nice design
feature.  You ought to try it sometime.

As long as I am ranting, I may as well throw in a few rants on the
amateur kids who run gentoo; those who think the world should be
thankful for their color choices are the same idiots who linked ls
against a /usr/lib library and made my system ubootable, who removed
libraries which LVM linked against during boot and made my system
unbootable.  Gentoo has good points, starting with portage, but it
also has innumerable insufferable knowitalls who make me gnash my
teeth at their inconsiderate unthinking fad-of-the-week behavior.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

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On Tuesday 03 April 2007 23:17:39 felix@crowfix.com wrote:

[snip: Rant re: portage's stupid color behavior]

Amen.  I'm not sure *exactly* what the solution is, but portage needs help 
in 
the color department.

-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.                     ,= ,-_-. =. 
bss03@volumehost.net                      ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy           `-'(. .)`-' 
http://iguanasuicide.org/                      \_/     

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Andrey Gerasimenko]

On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 11:32:45 +0400, <felix@crowfix.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 07:36:49AM +0200, Bo ?rsted Andresen wrote:
>
>> Weren't you talking about portage? In that case you should obviously  
>> file it
>> against portage.. But yeah, any app that has a --nocolor equivalent that
>> doesn't work deserves a bug report.. Even for apps that don't it's  
>> reasonable
>> to file it as an enhancement request.
>
> Oh for pete's sake, don't be so literal.  Esearch has screwed up.
> Emerge has screwed up.  Revdep-rebuild has screwed up.  Stop reading
> the leaves on the trees and paya ttention to the forest.  Your quibbly
> attitude is exactly the petulant behavior which makes me not want to
> waste my time filing bug reports on somebody's pet eye candy.
>

Exactly, all of them are screwed up! Now, I can imagine 4 possible reasons  
for that:

1. Each is screwed up individually. So, each deserves a bug report.

2. They share some function that is screwed up. If so, only one bug report  
wil fix them all, but filing more will not hurt.

3. This is a feature since the portage colors are configurable and  
developers may think it is unnecessary to have/add/maintain a command line  
switch. If so, a bug bug report will be transformed into a feature request  
bug report.

4. Until now all Gentoo users and developers used properly configured high  
quality monitors and enjoyed both dark blue (or navy?) and light yellow  
on, say, black background. Since it is unlikely that they downgrade to  
something like budget LCDs, they need a bug report just to know that the  
problem exists.

Ergo, please file a bug report on my eye candy.

>> First of all I believe most people (including myself) very much prefer  
>> colors
>> over no colors (no I cannot qualify with any numbers..). That does not,
>> however, mean that the pipe detection and --color switch etc. shouldn't  
>> be
>> honoured. It should (and it does here). Secondly, how did you come up  
>> with
>> the idea that a bug report would be dismissed if you never filed one?
>
> The UNIX standard for ages has been simple text output.  Why must
> gentoo add trendy colors which change every time some eye candy
> fanatic gets a bug up his butt to change colors when he gets bored
> with the old fashioned colors?  the default ought to be colors OFF and
> you have to ask to get them.
>

If I remember correctly, ls already had colored output when I first saw  
linux in 1997. I also do not understand how the console managed to get the  
ability to display colors if it was in violation of the standard. Each  
portage color has a meaning, and i find it handy to know which lines to  
read and which not to.

Why not create a better color scheme and submit it as a bug report?

> I choose fonts small enough to get maximum density with minimum eye
> strain.  The only way I could read these colors would be to increase
> the font size and decrease the density.  If gentoo developers think
> that a wise trade off when almost no other utility uses colors so much
> and so horribly, then gentoo is broken by design and no amount of bug
> reportage will change a damned thing.  Harmony is a nice design
> feature.  You ought to try it sometime.
>

The design already has adjustable color scheme, what else do you need?

However, I agree that the design is broken; projects like Paludis would  
never exist otherwise. So what?

> As long as I am ranting, I may as well throw in a few rants on the
> amateur kids who run gentoo; those who think the world should be
> thankful for their color choices are the same idiots who linked ls
> against a /usr/lib library and made my system ubootable, who removed
> libraries which LVM linked against during boot and made my system
> unbootable.  Gentoo has good points, starting with portage, but it
> also has innumerable insufferable knowitalls who make me gnash my
> teeth at their inconsiderate unthinking fad-of-the-week behavior.
>

Yes, Gentoo is run by amateur kids. I see the only way to fix it - join  
the Gentoo development.

-- 
Andrei Gerasimenko
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Alexis Lahouze]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Andrey Gerasimenko a écrit :
> On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 11:32:45 +0400, <felix@crowfix.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 07:36:49AM +0200, Bo ?rsted Andresen wrote:
[snip]
>>
>> The UNIX standard for ages has been simple text output.  Why must
>> gentoo add trendy colors which change every time some eye candy fanatic
>> gets a bug up his butt to change colors when he gets bored with the old
>> fashioned colors?  the default ought to be colors OFF and you have to
>> ask to get them.
>>
>
> If I remember correctly, ls already had colored output when I first saw
> linux in 1997. I also do not understand how the console managed to get the
>  ability to display colors if it was in violation of the standard. Each
> portage color has a meaning, and i find it handy to know which lines to
> read and which not to.
ls, by default, does not display colors (please stop me if I'm wrong)
ls command is an alias to ls --color (which is defined in the
bash.profile, I think, or any file in /etc/env.d)

Maybe anyone need no colored output by default and an alias for those who
want colored output?

I have the problem with my eix-sync cron job, I don't know how to disable
the garbage generated by colored output...

[snip]

- --
Alexis Lahouze - xals@lahouze.org
Gradignan (Bordeaux) - France - Terre
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 04 April 2007 09:32:45 felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> > Weren't you talking about portage? In that case you should obviously file
> > it against portage.. But yeah, any app that has a --nocolor equivalent
> > that doesn't work deserves a bug report.. Even for apps that don't it's
> > reasonable to file it as an enhancement request.
>
> Oh for pete's sake, don't be so literal.  Esearch has screwed up.
> Emerge has screwed up.  Revdep-rebuild has screwed up.

Both portage (that includes emerge) and revdep-rebuild seems to honour 
NOCOLOR=true if put into /etc/make.conf.

It's not really clear to me whether by 'screwed up' you mean the defaults 
didn't satisfy you or that --nocolor didn't work. If the former I don't 
really care.

> Stop reading the leaves on the trees and paya ttention to the forest.  Your
> quibbly attitude is exactly the petulant behavior which makes me not want to
> waste my time filing bug reports on somebody's pet eye candy.

???

Well, given your attitude I don't really want to encourage you to file any bug 
reports no matter what happens on your systems.

If at some point you decide that you want to achieve something other than 
incoherent rants and assuming you aren't just whining over the defaults not 
suiting your precious needs then by all means go ahead and file constructive 
bugs reports against those apps. `equery belongs` will tell you what packages 
to file them against.

And just so it's clear. I do agree that ideally they should all respect a term 
setting that shows no color capabilities. But without someone sitting down 
and writing the code properly I don't see it happening.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 04 April 2007 12:15:40 Andrey Gerasimenko wrote:
> Why not create a better color scheme and submit it as a bug report?

Because a 'better' color scheme is a subjective thing. You aren't going to 
satisfy everyone and as Neil pointed out you can already define your own 
color scheme. Since a change of default color scheme still wouldn't leave 
everyone happy the status quo will be preferred just because everytime 
something changes someone complains (yep, I can back that up if desired with 
quite a few bug reports)...

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Daniel Iliev]

Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
> On Wednesday 04 April 2007 12:15:40 Andrey Gerasimenko wrote:
>   
>> Why not create a better color scheme and submit it as a bug report?
>>     
>
> Because a 'better' color scheme is a subjective thing. You aren't going to 
> satisfy everyone and as Neil pointed out you can already define your own 
> color scheme.
--snip--



Exactly. So, MHO is that it would be better if all the output from
console apps was just plain text with the option for people who want
colors to enable and customize colors, wouldn't it?
I personally prefer colored output but I hate it when the color scheme
changes and I have to customize backgrounds (or the scheme itself) in
order to see some of the text which fuses with the background colors.


-- 
Best regards,
Daniel


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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Alexander Skwar]

Daniel Iliev <danny@ilievnet.com> wrote:

> Exactly. So, MHO is that it would be better if all the output from
> console apps was just plain text with the option for people who want
> colors to enable and customize colors, wouldn't it?

It might have been. But now that the stuff is all in IMO very
nice and useful colors, I expect quite a lot of bugs and complaints
to show up, if "all of a sudden" the output turns to "unreadable"
no-color output.

Alexander Skwar

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RE: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Wayne Oliver]

<snip />

I find the coloured output useful, as for me it adds readability. If you
don't like the defaults edit them to no colour or something "more sane"
for you. 

I agree with Alexander I predict a riot if the colour were removed by
default. 

Cheers

Wayn0 
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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2007-04-04, felix@crowfix.com <felix@crowfix.com> wrote:
> Why do --nocolor and --color=n not work (sys-apps/portage-2.1.2.3)?
>
> Why does the damned thing default to thinking I want blaring bizarre
> colors scattered all over my screen?

Yea, nothing is quite as readible as yellow or bright green on
a white background.  I hate color output.  I'm completely
baffled that anybody thinks it should be the default.

> I CAN'T EVEN DISABLE IT BY SETTING TERM TO vt100.
>
> And if ALL THESE CAPS distress you and you think I am shouting, well
> goodness gracious, NOW YOU KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT COLORIZATION RUN AMUCK.

Worse than emerge is that ls and other more commonly used
utilities all default to utterly-illegible mode on Gentoo.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Eisenhower!! Your
                                  at               mimeograph machine upsets
                               visi.com            my stomach!!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1281 bytes --]

On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:09:30 +0300, Daniel Iliev wrote:

> Exactly. So, MHO is that it would be better if all the output from
> console apps was just plain text with the option for people who want
> colors to enable and customize colors, wouldn't it?

Why? all you're doing there is changing to a different default colour
scheme (one where all text is the same). I really don't see the point in
changing, when I suspect the majority prefer colours. Switching colour
on and off is simple enough, to why disturb the status quo?

What was need is consistency between portage related applications, by
which I mean that portage-related tools that are not part of portage
should behave the same. I think it would also be good to provide a number
of alternate colour profiles, instead of just on and off, so people could
choose the one that suits their eyesight and environment. It would also
make lfe easier for those of us switching between xterms with light
backgrounds and VC with black backgrounds.

What is absolutely clear is that none of this will be brought about by
ranting at and insulting the devs who do this for no pay. In fact, such
posts are against the new Gentoo Code of Conduct.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Anything not nailed down is a cat toy...

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[felix]

On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 01:37:55PM +0200, Bo ?rsted Andresen wrote:
> 
> Both portage (that includes emerge) and revdep-rebuild seems to honour 
> NOCOLOR=true if put into /etc/make.conf.

No they don't.  I have had that line since the day I first noticed it,
and I still get unreadable color output.

NOCOLOR=true
--nocolor
-color=n
TERM=vt100
|less

I still get colorized crap.

> Well, given your attitude I don't really want to encourage you to file any bug 
> reports no matter what happens on your systems.

I have no intention of filing a bug full of rants.

> 
> If at some point you decide that you want to achieve something other than 
> incoherent rants and assuming you aren't just whining over the defaults not 
> suiting your precious needs then by all means go ahead and file constructive 
> bugs reports against those apps. `equery belongs` will tell you what packages 
> to file them against.

If gentoo colorization ever settles down to a coherent stable
methodology, I will even provide a patch.  But I have too many things
to do to try to debug a moving target which is so completely broken.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Walker]

felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 01:37:55PM +0200, Bo ?rsted Andresen wrote:
>   
>> Both portage (that includes emerge) and revdep-rebuild seems to honour 
>> NOCOLOR=true if put into /etc/make.conf.
>>     
>
> No they don't. 
  They do here.


Be lucky,


Neil

-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[felix]

On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 03:29:42PM +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:09:30 +0300, Daniel Iliev wrote:
> 
> > Exactly. So, MHO is that it would be better if all the output from
> > console apps was just plain text with the option for people who want
> > colors to enable and customize colors, wouldn't it?
> 
> Why? all you're doing there is changing to a different default colour
> scheme (one where all text is the same). I really don't see the point in
> changing, when I suspect the majority prefer colours. Switching colour
> on and off is simple enough, to why disturb the status quo?

(a) The unix standard for ages has been simple plain text output.
Gentoo breaks that standard with a color default.  Gentoo has broken
the standard; gentoo ought to honor the standard.

(b) Switching color off is easier than you might imagine, since all of
the following DO NOT WORK:

TERM=vt100
|less
NOCOLOR=true
--nocolor
--color=n
editing /usr/bin/emerge to always set havecolor = 0

> What is absolutely clear is that none of this will be brought about by
> ranting at and insulting the devs who do this for no pay. In fact, such
> posts are against the new Gentoo Code of Conduct.

I will explain why I consider gentoo to be run by amateurs, and I
don't mean in the old sense of unpaid vs professionals, I mean in the
shoddy sense of "try again in the next release" trial and error coding I
have seen.

Some bright eyes linked /bin/ls against some /usr/lib library, maybe
gpm, I forget, which made my system unbootable.  No boot partition
command should EVER be linked outside the boot partition.

Some genius set up an ebuild to remove a library which /bin/lvm was
linked against, which made my system unbootable.

Several other now-forgotten similar breakages which rendered my system
unbootable.  Gentoo is the absolute first Unix system I have used in
25 years which I have been leery of rebooting for wondering if I will
have to break out the rescue disk yet again.

As for colorization, my recollection is that it first appeared as hard
coded escape sequences in every single message in /usr/bin/emerge.
This was such atriociously bad  coding that I just edited it out,
figuring that a bug report would be lost on such feeble minds.

It then moved to actual variable assignments with the appropriate
names, still hard coded.  What the heck is termcap / terminfo for if
worked around like that?  Once more I shook my head and edited it out
rather than waste time educating supposedly intelligent developers on
the horrors of hard coded magic values.  For some reason, hard coded
magic numbers seem to be a favorite of newbies, and I have long since
learned that those developers who like hard coded magic numbers seem
to be particularly dead set against having anyone tell them why that
is bad practice.

Along the way, various color controls appeared, none of them working
particularly well.  I have listed them above.  None of them work.
Apparently the Gentoo standard is to add features without testing
them.  Somewhere along the way, "--nocolor" became unfashionable and
was replaced by "--color=n", but "--nospinner" is still favored,
possibly because the fad police haven't discovered it yet and replaced
it by "--spinner=n".  Or maybe they have become bored with fussing
with managing options and have moved on to some trendier busy work.

I use gentoo because portage *mostly* works, the ebuild packages
*mostly* work, I have an amd64 system and slackware has no 64 bit
version (I am aware of the unofficial one), I can't stand RedHat and
the other big corporate systems, and Debian leaves me cold with its
political bickering.  I do NOT advise friends to use gentoo, and I
would be amazed if any business tried to use it for production.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[felix]

On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 02:26:47PM +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2007-04-04, felix@crowfix.com <felix@crowfix.com> wrote:
> > Why do --nocolor and --color=n not work (sys-apps/portage-2.1.2.3)?
> >
> > Why does the damned thing default to thinking I want blaring bizarre
> > colors scattered all over my screen?
> 
> Yea, nothing is quite as readible as yellow or bright green on
> a white background.  I hate color output.  I'm completely
> baffled that anybody thinks it should be the default.

<sarcasm>All you have to do is double your font size and they become
quite legible.</sarcasm>

> > I CAN'T EVEN DISABLE IT BY SETTING TERM TO vt100.
> >
> > And if ALL THESE CAPS distress you and you think I am shouting, well
> > goodness gracious, NOW YOU KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT COLORIZATION RUN AMUCK.
> 
> Worse than emerge is that ls and other more commonly used
> utilities all default to utterly-illegible mode on Gentoo.

At least ls's color comes from that damned alias.  You can at least
use "/bin/ls" or prefix each command with "TERM=vt100" to get rid of
them temporarily, or "unalias -a" to get rid of them permanently per
login, or edit /etc/profile to get rid of them permanently forever.
At least the color options actually work.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[Nelson, David J]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: felix@crowfix.com [mailto:felix@crowfix.com]
> Sent: 04 April 2007 16:53
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with
> colorizedoutput?!?
> 
> 
> 
> (a) The unix standard for ages has been simple plain text output.
> Gentoo breaks that standard with a color default.  Gentoo has broken
> the standard; gentoo ought to honor the standard.

I believe a Dr Tannenbaum (?) once said "The great thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from".

Do we want a UNIX standard? A linux standard? A Gentoo standard? A lowest common denominator standard? A "what most people prefer" standard?

Personally colours don't bother me - they look fine on my 17in laptop screen with black terminal background. But thats purely my opinion. Many will share yours and many will share mine.

> 
> (b) Switching color off is easier than you might imagine, since all of
> the following DO NOT WORK:
> 
> TERM=vt100
> |less
> NOCOLOR=true
> --nocolor
> --color=n
> editing /usr/bin/emerge to always set havecolor = 0
> 

I do however agree that a reliable and useful way to turn colours off should be available for those that choose no coloured output. Gentoo, for me, is about choice.


> I will explain why I consider gentoo to be run by amateurs, and I
> don't mean in the old sense of unpaid vs professionals, I mean in the
> shoddy sense of "try again in the next release" trial and 
> error coding I
> have seen.
> 

=snip=

> Several other now-forgotten similar breakages which rendered my system
> unbootable.  Gentoo is the absolute first Unix system I have used in
> 25 years which I have been leery of rebooting for wondering if I will
> have to break out the rescue disk yet again.

If your systems are mission critical then don't upgrade a package unless you need to. In the past 8 months I've had Gentoo on my laptop and maybe once I have had to do some fixing. I can't recall now. I use an ~x86 unmasked system btw.

If you are doing `emerge -uD world` or something without checking what it's going to update then that's just plain idiocy. If you want to be more cautious then be more careful about what you upgrade. Also, see earlier "file bug reports" comments as you might, in doing so, save someone else from the same mistake...

> 
> As for colorization, my recollection is that it first appeared as hard
> coded escape sequences in every single message in /usr/bin/emerge.
> This was such atriociously bad  coding that I just edited it out,
> figuring that a bug report would be lost on such feeble minds.
> 

Insults rarely get you anywhere. Constructive feedback and discussion are generally better options FYI.

> It then moved to actual variable assignments with the appropriate
> names, still hard coded.  What the heck is termcap / terminfo for if
> worked around like that?  Once more I shook my head and edited it out
> rather than waste time educating supposedly intelligent developers on
> the horrors of hard coded magic values.  For some reason, hard coded
> magic numbers seem to be a favorite of newbies, and I have long since
> learned that those developers who like hard coded magic numbers seem
> to be particularly dead set against having anyone tell them why that
> is bad practice.

Yet still you haven't filed a bug report? For the love of <insert choice of deity here> either file a bug and see what they say (or better yet submit a patch to fix the issue you are experiencing) or if you really think you can make a contribution why not get onto the dev team?

> 
> Along the way, various color controls appeared, none of them working
> particularly well.  I have listed them above.  None of them work.
> Apparently the Gentoo standard is to add features without testing
> them.  Somewhere along the way, "--nocolor" became unfashionable and
> was replaced by "--color=n", but "--nospinner" is still favored,
> possibly because the fad police haven't discovered it yet and replaced
> it by "--spinner=n".  Or maybe they have become bored with fussing
> with managing options and have moved on to some trendier busy work.
> 
> I use gentoo because portage *mostly* works, the ebuild packages
> *mostly* work, I have an amd64 system and slackware has no 64 bit
> version (I am aware of the unofficial one), I can't stand RedHat and
> the other big corporate systems, and Debian leaves me cold with its
> political bickering.  I do NOT advise friends to use gentoo, and I
> would be amazed if any business tried to use it for production.
> 

Instead of bitching, pissing and moaning why don't you do as has been suggested. Your general rant is not constructive at all. Either do something about it (file a bug or get involved with the coding) or shut up and make do.

Being a non-dev myself and not programming-inclined I use Gentoo because it best fits my needs. I don't see a need to bitch about it all the time - if I have a problem with a package I'll file a bug and pass it onto a dev rather than get in a hissy fit on a mailing list.

Sorry if this email comes across as overly harsh but I don't see what you are trying to achieve by ranting without actually doing anything constructive. You might as well go and beat your head off a brick wall for all the good it will do.

David "it's past 5pm and I want to go home" Nelson


--
djn

I do not represent anyone else in emails I send to this list.
--
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Rob Rutherford]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 294 bytes --]

On 4/4/07, felix@crowfix.com <felix@crowfix.com> wrote:
>
>
> And if ALL THESE CAPS distress you and you think I am shouting, well
> goodness gracious, NOW YOU KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT COLORIZATION RUN AMUCK.
>
>
Caps don't distress me, but they do encourage me to add you to my junk mail
filter.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Jan Seeger]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

To add my 2c to this discussion: I am using the latest stable portage
for amd64 (2.1.2.2) and portage respects the --nocolor options. And I am
    sure that a non working argument to portage would long ago have been
    reported as a bug. So either you are doing something completely
    wrong or my portage is just better.

    Regards,
    Jan Seeger
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=Zkcv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Walker]

felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> At least ls's color comes from that damned alias.  You can at least
> use "/bin/ls" or prefix each command with "TERM=vt100" to get rid of
> them temporarily, or "unalias -a" to get rid of them permanently per
> login, or edit /etc/profile to get rid of them permanently forever.
> At least the color options actually work.
>   

Or, of course, you can simply edit /etc/DIR_COLORS and/or /etc/bashrc to
achieve any result you want.


Be lucky,

Neil

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[felix]

On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 05:19:09PM +0100, Nelson, David J wrote:

> Do we want a UNIX standard? A linux standard? A Gentoo standard? A lowest common denominator standard? A "what most people prefer" standard?

I am not talking about which colors to use, which is a personal
preference and can have no standard.  I am talking about the most
basic principles, that all programs behave the same and can be enabled
or disabled in the same way.  When gentoo unilaterally decides to do
the opposite, it sticks out like a sore thumb.  The proper way to add
color to emerge and its affiliates would have been with an alias, as
it does with ls, not by adding hard coded escape chars to messages,
nor by defaulting to color enabled and adding untested non-functional
control features to disable it.

There are programming standards too.  They include, at the most basic
level, testing new features to make sure they actually work and not
using hard coded magic numbers when existing libraries handle the
feature and are known to work.  Even you, as a non-programmer, can see
how those standards are good ones to follow.

> > Several other now-forgotten similar breakages which rendered my system
> > unbootable.  Gentoo is the absolute first Unix system I have used in
> > 25 years which I have been leery of rebooting for wondering if I will
> > have to break out the rescue disk yet again.

When there's an upgrade to the basic commands, like /bin/ls, it is
only reasonable to assume it is a useful upgrade.  My system is not
mission critical for a company, only for me, but I do not relish
spending hours trying to figure out what some amateur has done to
screw up an upgrade.  I shouldn't even have to worry about such basic
common sense as these failures.

> Insults rarely get you anywhere. Constructive feedback and discussion are generally better options FYI.

Like I said.  My experience has been that people who don't follow even
the most rudimentary principles, like testing features, following
standards, and reusing existing code rather than hard coding magic
numbers, simply do not listen to old farts who file bug reports.  This
has been from years of experience with coworkers and with mailing
lists.

My rant here has been to let off steam.  I am not going to waste time
filing a bug report about magic numbers, standards, and testing new
features, when those are the things that should be taught in the first
weeks of any programming course and explained in the first chapters of
any programming book.  I might as well explain 2+2=4 to someone
screwing up his calculus homework.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1436 bytes --]

On Wednesday 04 April 2007 17:53:21 felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> (b) Switching color off is easier than you might imagine, since all of
> the following DO NOT WORK:
>
> TERM=vt100
>
> |less
>
> NOCOLOR=true
> --nocolor
> --color=n
> editing /usr/bin/emerge to always set havecolor = 0

They all work for the rest of us. As you've been told many times by now.

[SNIP]
> This was such atriociously bad  coding that I just edited it out,
> figuring that a bug report would be lost on such feeble minds.

Yeah, ranting is so much better...

[SNIP]
> Apparently the Gentoo standard is to add features without testing
> them.

Except they are tested and working for everyone else (except maybe some people 
like you who don't bother to report it properly..).

> Somewhere along the way, "--nocolor" became unfashionable and 
> was replaced by "--color=n", but "--nospinner" is still favored,
> possibly because the fad police haven't discovered it yet and replaced
> it by "--spinner=n".

Because noone has requested a --force-spinner wanting to see it through a 
pipe. I was one of the people requesting a --force-color equivalent for use 
with less or files that I can cat. At first it was implemented as NOCOLOR=no. 
Later came --color = y | n.

The moving target actually comes from the fact that they do respond to bug 
reports from those of us who bother to report our issues..

-- 
Bo Andresen

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2007-04-04, felix@crowfix.com <felix@crowfix.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 02:26:47PM +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2007-04-04, felix@crowfix.com <felix@crowfix.com> wrote:
>> > Why do --nocolor and --color=n not work (sys-apps/portage-2.1.2.3)?
>> >
>> > Why does the damned thing default to thinking I want blaring bizarre
>> > colors scattered all over my screen?
>> 
>> Yea, nothing is quite as readible as yellow or bright green on
>> a white background.  I hate color output.  I'm completely
>> baffled that anybody thinks it should be the default.
>
><sarcasm>All you have to do is double your font size and they become
> quite legible.</sarcasm>
>
>> > I CAN'T EVEN DISABLE IT BY SETTING TERM TO vt100.
>> >
>> > And if ALL THESE CAPS distress you and you think I am shouting, well
>> > goodness gracious, NOW YOU KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT COLORIZATION RUN AMUCK.
>> 
>> Worse than emerge is that ls and other more commonly used
>> utilities all default to utterly-illegible mode on Gentoo.
>
> At least ls's color comes from that damned alias.  You can at least
> use "/bin/ls" or prefix each command with "TERM=vt100" to get rid of
> them temporarily, or "unalias -a" to get rid of them permanently per
> login, or edit /etc/profile to get rid of them permanently forever.

Except "forever" only lasts until the next emerge replaces
/etc/profile.

> At least the color options actually work.

You've got a point there. :)

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Here I am at the flea
                                  at               market but nobody is buying
                               visi.com            my urine sample bottles...

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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2007-04-04, Neil Walker <neil@ep.mine.nu> wrote:
> felix@crowfix.com wrote:
>> At least ls's color comes from that damned alias.  You can at least
>> use "/bin/ls" or prefix each command with "TERM=vt100" to get rid of
>> them temporarily, or "unalias -a" to get rid of them permanently per
>> login, or edit /etc/profile to get rid of them permanently forever.
>> At least the color options actually work.
>
> Or, of course, you can simply edit /etc/DIR_COLORS and/or /etc/bashrc to
> achieve any result you want.

My point is that why should you have to edit something before
you can get legible output from something as basic as "ls".
Why not default to a _useful_ condition?

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Yow! Those people
                                  at               look exactly like Donnie
                               visi.com            and Marie Osmond!!

-- 
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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[Harm Geerts]

On Wednesday 04 April 2007, felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 05:19:09PM +0100, Nelson, David J wrote:
> > Do we want a UNIX standard? A linux standard? A Gentoo standard? A lowest
> > common denominator standard? A "what most people prefer" standard?
>
> I am not talking about which colors to use, which is a personal
> preference and can have no standard.  I am talking about the most
> basic principles, that all programs behave the same and can be enabled
> or disabled in the same way.  When gentoo unilaterally decides to do
> the opposite, it sticks out like a sore thumb.  The proper way to add
> color to emerge and its affiliates would have been with an alias, as
> it does with ls, not by adding hard coded escape chars to messages,
> nor by defaulting to color enabled and adding untested non-functional
> control features to disable it.

The *proper* way is also a personal preference.
I like it the way it is, you don't.
But we've got to start somewhere.

For the record, disabling color works fine on my systems.

> > Insults rarely get you anywhere. Constructive feedback and discussion are
> > generally better options FYI.
>
> Like I said.  My experience has been that people who don't follow even
> the most rudimentary principles, like testing features, following
> standards, and reusing existing code rather than hard coding magic
> numbers, simply do not listen to old farts who file bug reports.  This
> has been from years of experience with coworkers and with mailing
> lists.
>
> My rant here has been to let off steam.  I am not going to waste time
> filing a bug report about magic numbers, standards, and testing new
> features, when those are the things that should be taught in the first
> weeks of any programming course and explained in the first chapters of
> any programming book.  I might as well explain 2+2=4 to someone
> screwing up his calculus homework.

Are we even talking about the same code?

I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't work for you, so unless you plan 
to ditch emerge, ditch Gentoo, switch to Paludis or file a bugreport. You'll 
be looking at the pretty colors for a while.

`which emerge` does actually yield `/usr/bin/emerge` does it?

Anyway, please allow us to help or just stop posting.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[felix]

On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 05:56:07PM +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2007-04-04, Neil Walker <neil@ep.mine.nu> wrote:
> > felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> >> At least ls's color comes from that damned alias.  You can at least
> >> use "/bin/ls" or prefix each command with "TERM=vt100" to get rid of
> >> them temporarily, or "unalias -a" to get rid of them permanently per
> >> login, or edit /etc/profile to get rid of them permanently forever.
> >> At least the color options actually work.
> >
> > Or, of course, you can simply edit /etc/DIR_COLORS and/or /etc/bashrc to
> > achieve any result you want.
> 
> My point is that why should you have to edit something before
> you can get legible output from something as basic as "ls".
> Why not default to a _useful_ condition?

Because the developers in charge at gentoo have a fresh and exciting
slant on things and th erest of us should bow our heads in thanks for
their wisdom?

Because old farts who don't like color are dying out and will soon
leave the smart young people alone?

In other words, beats me.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 307 bytes --]

On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 17:55:20 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:

> Except "forever" only lasts until the next emerge replaces
> /etc/profile.

Emerge never replaces files in /etc unless you use dangerous,
non-standard settings.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Windows isn't a virus -- viruses do something!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2617 bytes --]

On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:53:21 -0700, felix@crowfix.com wrote:

> > Why? all you're doing there is changing to a different default colour
> > scheme (one where all text is the same). I really don't see the point
> > in changing, when I suspect the majority prefer colours. Switching
> > colour on and off is simple enough, to why disturb the status quo?
> 
> (a) The unix standard for ages has been simple plain text output.

Please give a URL to this "standard". Not that Gentoo is Unix, so this
doesn't really apply anyway.

> (b) Switching color off is easier than you might imagine, since all of
> the following DO NOT WORK:
> 
> TERM=vt100
> |less
> NOCOLOR=true
> --nocolor
> --color=n
> editing /usr/bin/emerge to always set havecolor = 0

I have felt no need to do the latter, but all the others work for me, as
does editing /etc/portage/color.map.

> Some bright eyes linked /bin/ls against some /usr/lib library, maybe
> gpm, I forget, which made my system unbootable.  No boot partition
> command should EVER be linked outside the boot partition.

You're right, and that was a mistake made in the testing branch. If you
wish to use testing software, you should accept the fact that it will
occasionally fail a test - otherwise, what's the point?

> Some genius set up an ebuild to remove a library which /bin/lvm was
> linked against, which made my system unbootable.

Ditto. Both of these faux pas were fixed extremely promptly and didn't
reach the stable tree.

> figuring that a bug report would be lost on such feeble minds.

Insulting people who give their time for free is not the way to get
things fixed. Insulting anyone is no way to get your message across.
Provide logical bug reports and reasoned arguments if you want things
fixed. If you aren't interested in getting them fixed and just want to
let off steam and sling some mud, kindly do it elsewhere.

> Along the way, various color controls appeared, none of them working
> particularly well.  I have listed them above.  None of them work.

None of them work for you.

> Apparently the Gentoo standard is to add features without testing
> them.

Of course, that's why there is a flag to choose whether to have tested
ebuilds or those still in testing, or does that not work for you either?

> I do NOT advise friends to use gentoo, and I
> would be amazed if any business tried to use it for production.

Anyone using a testing branch, from any distro, for mission critical
production use deserves all they get.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

When there's a will, I want to be in it.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[felix]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5591 bytes --]

On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 08:10:49PM +0200, Harm Geerts wrote:

> `which emerge` does actually yield `/usr/bin/emerge` does it?

For the record, then --

# which emerge
/usr/bin/emerge
# grep -i color /etc/make.conf
NOCOLOR="true"
# echo $TERM
screen

and here are a zillion ways of trying to disable color output.  In all
of these cases except piping into less, the phrase

    Searching for a previously downloaded file in

is in yellow, and the phrase

     /usr/portage/distfiles

is in green.  Those two phrases are common to all examples.  I did not
abort them all at the same time, and the phrase

    The best of all is ... digikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2

is in green up to and including the ellipsis with the remainder in
blue.  There are some other phrases in green and yellow too.

Piping into less did not come out in color, but in ascii escape
sequences.  Either they got garbled and are the proper color
sequences, or less declined to show them as color, and I don't care
which for the purposes at hand.

Redirecting into a file, then catting the file, reproduced the colors
faithfully.  I will try to attach the color output, but I do not know
if the mailing will allow attachments.

# emerge -f digikam
Calculating dependencies... done!

>>> Emerging (1 of 1) media-gfx/digikam-0.9.1 to /
>>> Downloading
>>> 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2'
Searching for a previously downloaded file in /usr/portage/distfiles



Exiting on signal 2
# emerge --nocolor -f digikam
*** Deprecated use of '--nocolor', use '--color=n' instead.
Calculating dependencies... done!

>>> Emerging (1 of 1) media-gfx/digikam-0.9.1 to /
>>> Downloading
>>> 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2'
Searching for a previously downloaded file in /usr/portage/distfiles



Exiting on signal 2
# emerge --color=n -f digikam
Calculating dependencies... done!

>>> Emerging (1 of 1) media-gfx/digikam-0.9.1 to /
>>> Downloading
>>> 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2'
Searching for a previously downloaded file in /usr/portage/distfiles



Exiting on signal 2
# TERM=vt100 emerge -f digikam
Calculating dependencies... done!

>>> Emerging (1 of 1) media-gfx/digikam-0.9.1 to /
>>> Downloading
>>> 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2'
Searching for a previously downloaded file in /usr/portage/distfiles

We have the following candidates to choose from 
digikam-doc-0.8.0-es.tar.bz2
digikam-doc-0.8.0-et.tar.bz2
digikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2 

The best of all is ... digikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2

Checking if this file is OK.



Exiting on signal 2
# TERM=vt100 emerge -f digikam | less

Calculating dependencies
..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... done!

>>> Emerging (1 of 1) media-gfx/digikam-0.9.1 to /
>>> Downloading
>>> 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2'
ESC[01;32mSearching for a previously downloaded file in
>>> ESC[01;33m/usr/portage/distfiles
ESC[00m
ESC[01;32mWe have the following candidates to choose from 
ESC[01;33mdigikam-doc-0.8.0-es.tar.bz2
digikam-doc-0.8.0-et.tar.bz2
digikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2 
ESC[00m
ESC[01;32mThe best of all is
>>> ... ESC[01;36mdigikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2
ESC[00m
ESC[01;33mChecking if this file is OK.
ESC[00m
:

Exiting on signal 2
# TERM=vt100 emerge -f digikam >/tmp/colors.out
--11:50:17--
http://linux01.gwdg.de/~nlissne/deltup.php?have=digikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2&want=digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2&url=http://gentoo-sunrise.org/svndump/peper/distfiles/digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2&version=0.7&time=1175712617    
           =>
	   `deltup.php?have=digikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2&want=digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2&url=http:%2F%2Fgentoo-sunrise.org%2Fsvndump%2Fpeper%2Fdistfiles%2Fdigikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2&version=0.7&time=1175712617'
Resolving linux01.gwdg.de... 134.76.13.21
Connecting to linux01.gwdg.de|134.76.13.21|:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Found
Location:
http://dev.gentooexperimental.org/deltup/digikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2-digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2.dtu
[following]
--11:50:20--
http://dev.gentooexperimental.org/deltup/digikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2-digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2.dtu         
           =>
	   `digikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2-digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2.dtu'
Resolving dev.gentooexperimental.org... 81.93.240.53
Connecting to
dev.gentooexperimental.org|81.93.240.53|:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
Length: 18,914,412 (18M) [application/octet-stream]

17% [===========>
] 3,333,028    209.47K/s    ETA 01:30

Exiting on signal 2
# cat /tmp/xxx
Calculating dependencies
..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... done!

>>> Emerging (1 of 1) media-gfx/digikam-0.9.1 to /
>>> Downloading
>>> 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2'
Searching for a previously downloaded file in /usr/portage/distfiles

We have the following candidates to choose from 
digikam-doc-0.8.0-es.tar.bz2
digikam-doc-0.8.0-et.tar.bz2
digikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2 

The best of all is ... digikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2

Checking if this file is OK.

Trying to download
digikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2-digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2.dtu

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o

[-- Attachment #2: colors.out --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 732 bytes --]

Calculating dependencies  ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ....\b\b... done!

>>> Emerging (1 of 1) media-gfx/digikam-0.9.1 to /
>>> Downloading 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2'
^[[01;32mSearching for a previously downloaded file in ^[[01;33m/usr/portage/distfiles
^[[00m
^[[01;32mWe have the following candidates to choose from 
^[[01;33mdigikam-doc-0.8.0-es.tar.bz2
digikam-doc-0.8.0-et.tar.bz2
digikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2 
^[[00m
^[[01;32mThe best of all is ... ^[[01;36mdigikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2
^[[00m
^[[01;33mChecking if this file is OK.
^[[00m
^[[01;32mTrying to download ^[[01;33mdigikam-doc-0.8.2-et.tar.bz2-digikam-doc-0.8.2-es.tar.bz2.dtu
^[[00m

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[felix]

And also for the record --

# emerge -pv portage

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild   R   ] sys-apps/portage-2.1.2.3  USE="doc -build -epydoc
(-selinux)" LINGUAS="pl" 0 kB 

Total: 1 package (1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 0 kB

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Walker]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> My point is that why should you have to edit something before
> you can get legible output from something as basic as "ls".
> Why not default to a _useful_ condition?
>   

It's VERY legible on all of the systems I administer - but, then, I use
the text-based console, not some horrible imitation in X. The colours
make text far more legible in such an environment, accentuating the
important bits very well. I see that as a "useful condition". Anyone who
uses an X-based "console" should expect to have to tweak things to suit
their own requirements.


Be lucky,

Neil


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[felix]

On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 07:19:39PM +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2007-04-04, Neil Walker <neil@ep.mine.nu> wrote:
> > Grant Edwards wrote:
> >> My point is that why should you have to edit something before
> >> you can get legible output from something as basic as "ls".
> >> Why not default to a _useful_ condition?
> >>   
> >
> > It's VERY legible on all of the systems I administer - but, then, I use
> > the text-based console, not some horrible imitation in X. The colours
> > make text far more legible in such an environment, accentuating the
> > important bits very well. I see that as a "useful condition". Anyone who
> > uses an X-based "console" should expect to have to tweak things to suit
> > their own requirements.
> 
> I don't use an X-based console.  I do however use a lot of
> X-based terminal windows.

Color output would be perfectly legible, or at least readable, if I
doubled my X-terminal font size.  But I want more lines and more
characters on each line, not colors.  I want the choice.  Maybe I
should accept crappy color for emerges and select a bigger font size
for a special emerge-only xterm.  But that's a Microserf solution.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[Neil Walker]

felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> Exiting on signal 2
> # TERM=vt100 emerge -f digikam
>   

I'm not sure why you expect that to work as the DEC VT100 was an ANSI
terminal - i.e. it supported the ANSI control codes. Those are the codes
which set colour, etc..

Be lucky,

Neil

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[Neil Walker]

Harm Geerts wrote:
> switch to Paludis

If you want to see something truly horrific, try "USE=pink emerge
paludis". ;)


Be lucky,

Neil

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 818 bytes --]

Hello b.n.,

> > I have felt no need to do the latter, but all the others work for me,
> > as does editing /etc/portage/color.map.  
> 
> I was just thinking of suggesting portage to use and honour colour 
> themes? -this would please both him (using a plain no colour theme) and 
> us wanting eye candy (and each one having colours that likes).

Themes would also be good, as I mentioned previously, because you don't
always want the same colour scheme.

> However /etc/portage/color.map looks just like what I was thinking 
> about... except for the fact I can't find it (and "locate" tells me 
> nothing too).

It's not there until you create it, like most of the files
in /etc/postage. See the wiki page I referenced previously.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Grow your own dope, plant a politician!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[Dan Cowsill]

It seems to me that we're ignoring the function of applying colors to
a program's output.  It's not because of the bent appeal of myriads of
colors flying around.  It's because the devs needs to contrast the
important output from the unimportant output.  Now, I could agree that
sometimes the devs get it wrong with regards to which output should be
considered 'important' and therefore colorized.  I could also agree
that users should have the choice between colorized and non-colorized
output.

However, to level the claim that Gentoo users are in love with
colorized output because of some inherent lack of Linux taste or
because of the 'progressive' nature of Gentoo is just silly.  The
original post was condescending and childish.

A good rule to follow before posting to forums or mailing list is the
'24-hour rule.'  The 24-hour rule states that if you are angered or
otherwise emotionally charged, you should wait 24-hours before sending
off your email.  Feel free to write it all out to your heart's
content, as it usually helps focus your frustration and alleviate the
pressure on your brain, but just save it as a draft and move on for
the next 24 hours.

Hope this helps.
-- 
-·=»Ðŧħ«=·-

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[felix]

On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 04:04:20PM -0400, Dan Cowsill wrote:

> A good rule to follow before posting to forums or mailing list is the
> '24-hour rule.'  The 24-hour rule states that if you are angered or
> otherwise emotionally charged, you should wait 24-hours before sending
> off your email.  Feel free to write it all out to your heart's
> content, as it usually helps focus your frustration and alleviate the
> pressure on your brain, but just save it as a draft and move on for
> the next 24 hours.

And did you wait 24 hours?

> Hope this helps.

Goose and gander, sauce, etc.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Benno Schulenberg]

b.n. wrote:
> However /etc/portage/color.map looks just like what I was
> thinking about... except for the fact I can't find it (and
> "locate" tells me nothing too).

I made a man page for it once.  Don't know if it's still accurate:
    https://bugs.gentoo.org/attachment.cgi?id=89762

Benno
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 956 bytes --]

On Wednesday 04 April 2007 21:59:09 felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> > The output you've posted in your other mail comes from the package
> > app-portage/getdelta. It could very well be they don't respect the color
> > setting and forece it.
> >
> > try to unset the FETCHCOMMAND in your /etc/make.conf
>
> That does eliminate the color output, but it's a nonstarter; that
> machine lives on dialup.  It's also pretty pathetic that one portage
> package doesn't know what the other is doing, and the only solution is
> to disable getdelta.  If the portage develoeprs don't keep track of
> their own changes and don't talk to each other even on such closely
> related packages, well, I guess it doesn't surprise me.

Why on earth do you think the portage devs have anything to do with third 
party apps like getdelta, esearch, eix, gentoolkit etc. They don't!

Colors for getdelta can be disabled in /etc/deltup/getdelta.rc.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[felix]

On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 10:27:48PM +0200, Harm Geerts wrote:

> Would you please show a little respect to the people who developed
> the software you use every day.

I have found that people are fine, it is groups of people who cause
the problems in the world.  The gentoo dev community has a reputation
of releasing untested code, and when I mention a couple of severe
cases that shouldn't have even gotten near the door, let alone out of
it, I am told the ~ platform is testing.  No it is not, or should not
be; it is one thing to release new features which may or may not be
finished, but entirely different to release untested code.  Maybe
getdelta is not from the core community; but did no one in the core
community think it good to report their changes?  When the first
colors were added to emerge, did no one think hard coded magic
constants were wrong?  When devs think it good to colorize everybody's
terminal without regard to long established UNIX custom of using just
simple plain text, I am told that gentoo is not UNIX.  Good grief,
what an attitude!

You personally probably don't deserve any criticism.  But the gentoo
dev community certainly does.  That's the real world.  Republicans
lost the 2006 elections because they were tainted with the policies of
their president and their party and because they preferred to stand by
their man in a confused idea of loyalty to a person rather than to
their principles.  Democrats lost the 1994 elections ditto.  No doubt
there were otherwise decent Nazis and Communists who were horrified at
what the party did but did not stand up when it might have made a
difference.  No doubt there have been decent people of all stripes who
didn't personally deserve the criticism of whatever groups they
joined.

When the gentoo dev community stops spouting nonsense about gentoo is
not unix, stops pointing fingers at third party software which was
written to work with gentoo software, and stops blaming users for
preferring white backgrounds, then they will have earned some respect.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[Dan Cowsill]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed, Size: 1348 bytes --]

On 4/4/07, felix@crowfix.com <felix@crowfix.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 04:04:20PM -0400, Dan Cowsill wrote:
>
> > A good rule to follow before posting to forums or mailing list is the
> > '24-hour rule.'  The 24-hour rule states that if you are angered or
> > otherwise emotionally charged, you should wait 24-hours before sending
> > off your email.  Feel free to write it all out to your heart's
> > content, as it usually helps focus your frustration and alleviate the
> > pressure on your brain, but just save it as a draft and move on for
> > the next 24 hours.
>
> And did you wait 24 hours?
>
> > Hope this helps.
>
> Goose and gander, sauce, etc.
>
> --
>             ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
>      Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
>   GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
> I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

I wasn't particularly emotional when I composed my email, so I didn't
feel the need to wait.  I also wanted to spare you the humiliation
that this silly thread will no doubt bring upon you by offering you
some friendly advice in a timely manner.

Clearly I misjudged you.

-- 
-·=»Ðŧħ«=·-
éí¢‹¬z¸\x1ežÚ(¢¸&j)bž	b²

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[Chris Scullard]

felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> You personally probably don't deserve any criticism.  But the gentoo
> dev community certainly does.  That's the real world.  Republicans
> lost the 2006 elections because they were tainted with the policies of
> their president and their party and because they preferred to stand by
> their man in a confused idea of loyalty to a person rather than to
> their principles.  Democrats lost the 1994 elections ditto.  No doubt
> there were otherwise decent Nazis...
>   
I call Godwin's Law on that!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

The corollary proves quite useful in this case.

Chris
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[b.n.]

Neil Bothwick ha scritto:
> I have felt no need to do the latter, but all the others work for me, as
> does editing /etc/portage/color.map.

I was just thinking of suggesting portage to use and honour colour 
themes? -this would please both him (using a plain no colour theme) and 
us wanting eye candy (and each one having colours that likes).

However /etc/portage/color.map looks just like what I was thinking 
about... except for the fact I can't find it (and "locate" tells me 
nothing too).

Is it a new feature?

m.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[b.n.]

felix@crowfix.com ha scritto:
> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 02:26:47PM +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2007-04-04, felix@crowfix.com <felix@crowfix.com> wrote:
>>> Why do --nocolor and --color=n not work (sys-apps/portage-2.1.2.3)?
>>>
>>> Why does the damned thing default to thinking I want blaring bizarre
>>> colors scattered all over my screen?
>> Yea, nothing is quite as readible as yellow or bright green on
>> a white background.  I hate color output.  I'm completely
>> baffled that anybody thinks it should be the default.

*slap on the forehead* Oh my god, now I understand it all. You are using 
a WHITE xterm background.

The Gentoo colours make complete sense on a BLACK background. I do agree 
that they are insane on a white or otherwise light background.

I was thinking you were quite mad :) ,however now I agree with your 
point (even if I don't agree with your ranting attitude: as repeated a 
TON of times, your options are 1)file bugs 2)become a gentoo dev 3)stop 
using Gentoo).

m.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[Neil Walker]

felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> When devs think it good to colorize everybody's
> terminal without regard to long established UNIX custom of using just
> simple plain text, I am told that gentoo is not UNIX.  Good grief,
> what an attitude!
>   

The Gentoo devs did not invent colourised text. It has been around since
the 1970's at least with ANSI terminals. The IBM PC, released in the
early 1980's, came with a choice of two display hardware devices, one of
which was a 16 colour  text display known as CGA. Linux was not even
dreamt of - let alone Gentoo - in those days. The advantages of colour
to highlight important text were quickly realised and demand brought
down the price of the hardware which, in turn, reduced prices still
further. Of course, you could still have plain white text (or green, or
amber) if you wanted it by buying a monochrome monitor or terminal. The
UNIX default was, effectively, white text on an undefined background but
rarely seen in most working environments from the late 1970's on.

> When the gentoo dev community stops spouting nonsense about gentoo is
> not unix, stops pointing fingers at third party software which was
> written to work with gentoo software, and stops blaming users for
> preferring white backgrounds, then they will have earned some respect.
>   

So, you would like to have the Unix default of white text on your white
background? Xterms, X-based consoles - call them what you will, do not
conform to that original UNIX "standard" so it is being hypocritical to
demand that the text output should accomodate them whilst still
conforming to your imaginary standard. One of the (few) advantages of
working in X-windows is that just about everything is configurable - so
get configuring instead of whining and complaining.

FWIW, I don't know any serious UNIX/Linux people, of any age, who don't
prefer the text-based console for command-line work. Most of my own
machines at home don't even have X-windows installed - let alone the
servers I administer.



Be lucky,

Neil

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Mittwoch, 4. April 2007, felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 03:29:42PM +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:09:30 +0300, Daniel Iliev wrote:
> > > Exactly. So, MHO is that it would be better if all the output from
> > > console apps was just plain text with the option for people who want
> > > colors to enable and customize colors, wouldn't it?
> >
> > Why? all you're doing there is changing to a different default colour
> > scheme (one where all text is the same). I really don't see the point in
> > changing, when I suspect the majority prefer colours. Switching colour
> > on and off is simple enough, to why disturb the status quo?
>
> (a) The unix standard for ages has been simple plain text output.
> Gentoo breaks that standard with a color default.  Gentoo has broken
> the standard; gentoo ought to honor the standard.

gentoo is not unix. Hell, linux is not unix. GNU even has it in its name. And 
most unices are not very unicy.


>
> > What is absolutely clear is that none of this will be brought about by
> > ranting at and insulting the devs who do this for no pay. In fact, such
> > posts are against the new Gentoo Code of Conduct.
>
> I will explain why I consider gentoo to be run by amateurs, and I
> don't mean in the old sense of unpaid vs professionals, I mean in the
> shoddy sense of "try again in the next release" trial and error coding I
> have seen.

and you seem one of that 'leechy' type of persons, who use stuff made by 
others for free - and when it does not fullfull their dreams, they start 
insulting the 'makers' and rant around instaed of trying to find a way to 
change it.

>
> Some bright eyes linked /bin/ls against some /usr/lib library, maybe
> gpm, I forget, which made my system unbootable.  No boot partition
> command should EVER be linked outside the boot partition.

you confuse boot and root. Sweet.

>
> Some genius set up an ebuild to remove a library which /bin/lvm was
> linked against, which made my system unbootable.

wow, I can't believe that such an error happend in the stable tree. Would you 
like to post the bug number?

>
> Several other now-forgotten similar breakages which rendered my system
> unbootable.  Gentoo is the absolute first Unix system I have used in
> 25 years which I have been leery of rebooting for wondering if I will
> have to break out the rescue disk yet again.

hm, strange. I never had any boot problems. Wait, I had.. when I tried some 
experimental, patched to death glibc from the forums, and when I had to 
downgrade sometime later, udev and some other stuff broke. Nothing that could 
not be fixed with some thinking, and definetly my fault.

Have you used forum ebuilds?

>
> As for colorization, my recollection is that it first appeared as hard
> coded escape sequences in every single message in /usr/bin/emerge.
> This was such atriociously bad  coding that I just edited it out,
> figuring that a bug report would be lost on such feeble minds.

another insult. Great. You really are a parasite, aren't you? No, you don't 
file a bug, no, you don't post your patch - it could be used - gasp, the 
horror! Instead you insult the ones working hard to create it in the first 
place.

Maybe you should step down some notches? The air must be pretty thin up there?

>
> It then moved to actual variable assignments with the appropriate
> names, still hard coded.  What the heck is termcap / terminfo for if
> worked around like that? 

well, maybe just maybe it is because termcap/terminfo and a lot of shells are 
broken in many and subtle ways and someone tried to work around that? Just 
maybe?

> Once more I shook my head and edited it out 
> rather than waste time educating supposedly intelligent developers on
> the horrors of hard coded magic values. 

oh, it is ok for them to waste their time, but not for you?

> For some reason, hard coded 
> magic numbers seem to be a favorite of newbies, and I have long since
> learned that those developers who like hard coded magic numbers seem
> to be particularly dead set against having anyone tell them why that
> is bad practice.

*yawn*


>
> Along the way, various color controls appeared, none of them working
> particularly well.  I have listed them above.  None of them work.
> Apparently the Gentoo standard is to add features without testing
> them. 

wow, because one 'feature' does not work as expected, you are able to conclude 
that everything is broken. 

Hm, the last time I tried to use 'nocolor' it worked just fine. But that was a 
long time ago. I like the colors. Especially on a black background. Makes 
finding new newsflags and other stuff easy.

>
> I use gentoo because portage *mostly* works, the ebuild packages
> *mostly* work, I have an amd64 system and slackware has no 64 bit
> version (I am aware of the unofficial one), I can't stand RedHat and
> the other big corporate systems, and Debian leaves me cold with its
> political bickering.  I do NOT advise friends to use gentoo, and I
> would be amazed if any business tried to use it for production.

You might be surprised, there are ones. 

The problem are people like you. Ranting, attacking and insulting others over 
cosmetic problems, but do nothing at all to change it.

I am really disgusted.
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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Alexander Skwar]

Hemmann, Volker Armin <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:

> [ a lot of good replies ]
> I am really disgusted.

Very well said!

Alexander Skwar

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Bertram Scharpf]

Hi,

Am Dienstag, 03. Apr 2007, 21:17:39 -0700 schrieb felix@crowfix.com:
> Why do --nocolor and --color=n not work (sys-apps/portage-2.1.2.3)?
> 
> Why does the damned thing default to thinking I want blaring bizarre
> colors scattered all over my screen?

I did not read the whole thread. So this might duplicate
another answer.

  $ echo -e '\e[1;35mNever \e[44mmind\e[m.' | sed 's/\x1b\[[0-9]\+\(;[0-9]\+\)\?m//g'

Bertram


-- 
Bertram Scharpf
Stuttgart, Deutschland/Germany
http://www.bertram-scharpf.de
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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[Alexander Skwar]

felix@crowfix.com <felix@crowfix.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 05:19:09PM +0100, Nelson, David J wrote:
> 
>> Do we want a UNIX standard? A linux standard? A Gentoo standard? A lowest
>> common denominator standard? A "what most people prefer" standard?
> 
> I am not talking about which colors to use, which is a personal
> preference and can have no standard.

Yes, you are talking about that.

> I am talking about the most 
> basic principles, that all programs behave the same and can be enabled
> or disabled in the same way.

That's not true.

> When gentoo unilaterally decides to do 
> the opposite, it sticks out like a sore thumb.  The proper way to add
> color to emerge and its affiliates would have been with an alias, as
> it does with ls, not by adding hard coded escape chars to messages,
> nor by defaulting to color enabled and adding untested non-functional
> control features to disable it.

Well, as said before: Chaning to a black/white color theme would probably
create quite some uproar now. IMO it's simply too late to change that.
BTW: I also don't see a need for changing the default.

> There are programming standards too.  They include, at the most basic
> level, testing new features to make sure they actually work

That's what ~x86 (or any other arch) is there for. I guess nobody
found a problem, so it made its way to stable tree.

> When there's an upgrade to the basic commands, like /bin/ls, it is
> only reasonable to assume it is a useful upgrade.  

In how far is /bin/ls critical for booting the system? And why
do you blame other people for your faults?


> numbers, simply do not listen to old farts who file bug reports.  This

Fine. Then don't file a bug report. And also do NOT complain, because
not filing a bug report means, that everything is fine.

> has been from years of experience with coworkers and with mailing
> lists.

Are you always like this? Maybe it's the way you approach people, that
they do not want to listen to you.

> My rant here has been to let off steam.  I am not going to waste time
> filing a bug report 

Fine. Then don't complain. Or rather: Complain about the failures
YOU do, like not compiling ls statically, like not filing bug
reports, etc.pp..

Alexander Skwar

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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[Alexander Skwar]

felix@crowfix.com <felix@crowfix.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 09:40:21PM +0200, Harm Geerts wrote:
 
>> try to unset the FETCHCOMMAND in your /etc/make.conf
> 
> That does eliminate the color output,

So your rant was without substance, after all?

> to disable getdelta.  If the portage develoeprs don't keep track of
> their own changes and don't talk to each other even on such closely
> related packages, well, I guess it doesn't surprise me.

getdelta is a "addon" product. Get your facts straight, before
you complain, boy!

Alexander Skwar

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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[Alexander Skwar]

felix@crowfix.com <felix@crowfix.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 10:27:48PM +0200, Harm Geerts wrote:
> 
>> Would you please show a little respect to the people who developed
>> the software you use every day.
> 
> I have found that people are fine, it is groups of people who cause
> the problems in the world.  The gentoo dev community has a reputation
> of releasing untested code, and when I mention a couple of severe
> cases that shouldn't have even gotten near the door, let alone out of
> it, I am told the ~ platform is testing.

Correct.

> No it is not, or should not 
> be; 

What else should it be?

> finished, but entirely different to release untested code.  Maybe
> getdelta is not from the core community; but did no one in the core
> community think it good to report their changes?  When the first
> colors were added to emerge, did no one think hard coded magic
> constants were wrong?  When devs think it good to colorize everybody's
> terminal without regard to long established UNIX custom of using just
> simple plain text, I am told that gentoo is not UNIX.  

Exactly.

> Good grief, 
> what an attitude!

Yep, you've got quite an attitude.

> When the gentoo dev community stops spouting nonsense about gentoo is
> not unix, 

What are you talking about? You DO know, to what list you're writing
to, don't you? Hint: There's no "dev" in the name of the list.

> stops pointing fingers at third party software which was 
> written to work with gentoo software, and stops blaming users for
> preferring white backgrounds, then they will have earned some respect.

I guess earning respect from people like you is something, the Gentoo
people could very well do without.

Alexander Skwar

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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Alexander Skwar]

Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:

> Why not default to a _useful_ condition?

But, it does! The colors are very useful!

Alexander Skwar

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[Mark Kirkwood]

felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> I have found that people are fine, it is groups of people who cause
> the problems in the world.  

This is a interesting observation that I concur with in general - 
unfortunately you own attitude displayed in your previous messages 
pretty much provides a counter example!...(blast - hate it when nice 
theories get invalidated).

Mark
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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Alexander Skwar]

felix@crowfix.com <felix@crowfix.com> wrote:

> Here's my current favorite.  emerge -f digikam.  It downloads a
> corrupted file

No, it doesn't.

>>> Emerging (6 of 6) media-gfx/digikam-0.9.1 to /
Adjusting permissions recursively: '/Gentoo/Portage/distfiles/'
>>> Downloading 'http://gentoo.supp.name/distfiles/digikam-0.9.1.tar.bz2'
--09:10:01--  http://gentoo.supp.name/distfiles/digikam-0.9.1.tar.bz2
           => `/Gentoo/Portage/distfiles/digikam-0.9.1.tar.bz2'
Resolving gentoo.supp.name... 82.208.58.65
Connecting to gentoo.supp.name|82.208.58.65|:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
Length: 6'781'756 (6.5M) [application/x-tar]

100%[===================================================================================>] 6'781'756    330.41K/s    ETA 00:00

09:10:16 (429.62 KB/s) - `/Gentoo/Portage/distfiles/digikam-0.9.1.tar.bz2' saved [6781756/6781756]

 * digikam-0.9.1.tar.bz2 RMD160 ;-) ...                                                                                  [ ok ]
 * digikam-0.9.1.tar.bz2 SHA1 ;-) ...                                                                                    [ ok ]
 * digikam-0.9.1.tar.bz2 SHA256 ;-) ...                                                                                  [ ok ]
 * digikam-0.9.1.tar.bz2 size ;-) ...                                                                                    [ ok ]
 * checking ebuild checksums ;-) ...                                                                                     [ ok ]
 * checking auxfile checksums ;-) ...                                                                                    [ ok ]
 * checking miscfile checksums ;-) ...                                                                                   [ ok ]
 * checking digikam-0.9.1.tar.bz2 ;-) ...                                                                                [ ok ]

> and tries several times, with tons of colored output 
> which I have to copy and paste to read.

If you don't like colors, you should disable them.

Alexander Skwar

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RE: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love withcolorizedoutput?!?

[Nelson, David J]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: felix@crowfix.com [mailto:felix@crowfix.com]
> Sent: 04 April 2007 18:08
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love
> withcolorizedoutput?!?
> 
> 
 > > Insults rarely get you anywhere. Constructive feedback and 
> discussion are generally better options FYI.
> 
> Like I said.  My experience has been that people who don't follow even
> the most rudimentary principles, like testing features, following
> standards, and reusing existing code rather than hard coding magic
> numbers, simply do not listen to old farts who file bug reports.  This
> has been from years of experience with coworkers and with mailing
> lists.
> 
> My rant here has been to let off steam.  I am not going to waste time
> filing a bug report about magic numbers, standards, and testing new
> features, when those are the things that should be taught in the first
> weeks of any programming course and explained in the first chapters of
> any programming book.  I might as well explain 2+2=4 to someone
> screwing up his calculus homework.

If the devs won't read a bug report reporting an issue where a useful feature doesn't work then they are just going to ignore some old fart ranting and raving on a mailing list.

Letting off steam on a mailing list is a bad idea anyway. I like the sound of the '24 hour' rule....

David


--
djn

I do not represent anyone else in emails I send to this list.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1135 bytes --]

On Wednesday 04 April 2007 15:57:40 felix@crowfix.com wrote:
> I am told the ~ platform is testing.  No it is not, or should not 
> be; it is one thing to release new features which may or may not be
> finished, but entirely different to release untested code.

~ARCH is testing, don't run it if you aren't willing to test code and file 
bugs.  The handbook is clear on this point.

Its not completely untested code, though.  The developer that marks it as 
~ARCH should have compiled and run the program to his or her satisfaction 
on 
that ARCH.  At that point, the developer can (rightly) feel free to release 
the package to those users that have **VOLUNTARILY chosen to test new 
packages* by running ~ARCH.

I'm not saying don't run ~ARCH at all; but if you do, you have chosen to 
test 
the software and should file bugs, even if that takes some time.

> Nazis

Godwin!!

-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.                     ,= ,-_-. =. 
bss03@volumehost.net                      ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy           `-'(. .)`-' 
http://iguanasuicide.org/                      \_/     

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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2007-04-05, Alexander Skwar <listen@alexander.skwar.name> wrote:
> Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:
>
>> Why not default to a _useful_ condition?
>
> But, it does! The colors are very useful!

Only on certain terminals.  They're quite unreadable on a white
background (which has always been the default for xterm and
it's descendants, right?).

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Could I have a drug
                                  at               overdose?
                               visi.com            

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 790 bytes --]

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 14:24:02 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:

> > But, it does! The colors are very useful!  
> 
> Only on certain terminals.  They're quite unreadable on a white
> background (which has always been the default for xterm and
> it's descendants, right?).

Those particular colours are less useful, because they are designed for a
black background, but it is easy enough to change to a more suitable
selection.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Das Internet is nicht fuer gefingerclicken und giffengrabben. Ist easy
droppenpacket der routers und overloaden der backbone mit der spammen
und der me-tooen. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das
mausklicken sichtseeren keepen das bandwit-spewin hans in das pockets
muss; relaxen und watchen das cursorblinken.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2007-04-05, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 14:24:02 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> > But, it does! The colors are very useful!  
>> 
>> Only on certain terminals.  They're quite unreadable on a white
>> background (which has always been the default for xterm and
>> it's descendants, right?).
>
> Those particular colours are less useful, because they are designed for a
> black background,

But the default background on terminals under X has always been
white (at least as long as I remember).  Are there really a lot
of Gentoo users who just run on the console and don't use X?

> but it is easy enough to change to a more suitable selection.

My point was why default to something that isn't useful for the
standard terminal emulators like xterm, aterm, rxvt, etc.  Are
there common terminal emulators that default to a black
background?

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  ... I want to perform
                                  at               cranial activities with
                               visi.com            Tuesday Weld!!

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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2007-04-05, Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:
> On 2007-04-05, Alexander Skwar <listen@alexander.skwar.name> wrote:
>> Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Why not default to a _useful_ condition?
>>
>> But, it does! The colors are very useful!
>
> Only on certain terminals.  They're quite unreadable on a white
> background (which has always been the default for xterm and
> it's descendants, right?).

I did find one terminal emulator on my system that defaults to
a black background (/usr/bin/Terminal, which belongs to the
xfce-extras package).  On a black background, it's not as bad,
but some of the colors like blue on black are still hard to
read.

I guess I'm in the minority, though...

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I just had my entire
                                  at               INTESTINAL TRACT coated
                               visi.com            with TEFLON!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 411 bytes --]

On Thursday 05 April 2007, felix@crowfix.com wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] 
Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?':
> 31334

I think you meant 31337.

-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.                     ,= ,-_-. =. 
bss03@volumehost.net                      ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy           `-'(. .)`-' 
http://iguanasuicide.org/                      \_/     

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Ryan Curtin]

On Thu, Apr 05, 2007 at 02:45:15PM +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> My point was why default to something that isn't useful for the
> standard terminal emulators like xterm, aterm, rxvt, etc.  Are
> there common terminal emulators that default to a black
> background?

aterm on default settings has a black background for me, and I think
Konsole does also.

Ryan Curtin
ryan@www.igglybob.com

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1118 bytes --]

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 14:45:15 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:

> > Those particular colours are less useful, because they are designed
> > for a black background,  
> 
> But the default background on terminals under X has always been
> white (at least as long as I remember).  Are there really a lot
> of Gentoo users who just run on the console and don't use X?

Until recently, it was all Gentoo users, since the installation was done
fro a virtual console.

> > but it is easy enough to change to a more suitable selection.  
> 
> My point was why default to something that isn't useful for the
> standard terminal emulators like xterm, aterm, rxvt, etc.  Are
> there common terminal emulators that default to a black
> background?

Not that I know of, but that's irrelevant. The defaults fit what
*everyone* has, and can be so easily changed to suit the optional
alternative.

The important word here is "default", that's all it is, you can use
whatever colours you want, or none at all.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Failure is not an option...it is integrated with every Microsoft product.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Tony Stohne]

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Grant Edwards said the following on 2007-04-05 16:45:
| ...
| My point was why default to something that isn't useful for the
| standard terminal emulators like xterm, aterm, rxvt, etc.  Are
| there common terminal emulators that default to a black
| background?
|
You always have the options of changing the colors in xterm/rxvt/aterm
etc to your preferred colors, background color included.

The first one is changing the /usr/share/X11/rgb.txt file. The problem
with changing it is that it usually gets overwritten with every xorg-x11
update.

I prefer changing the .Xdefaults file in my user & root directories.
That way any updates don't screw up my preferences.

To see my current .Xdefaults, please look at the attached file - I have
dropped Eterm & aterm. Rxvt is very resource efficient :)
I use xterm as a fallback.


~     For further info & examples see:

http://fluxbox-wiki.org/index.php/Howto_setup_Xdefaults

http://dev.gentoo.org/~taviso/xdefaults.html

http://gentoo-wiki.com/TIP_Linux_Colors_in_Aterm/rxvt

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=68555

http://gentoo-wiki.com/Talk:TIP_Linux_Colors_in_Aterm/rxvt

http://cvs.schmorp.de/rxvt-unicode/doc/rxvt.7.html#i_don_t_like_the_screen_colors__how_do_i_change_them

http://www.fleiner.com/vim/xdefaults.linux

http://invisible-island.net/xterm/xterm.faq.html#my_xdefaults

For a nice xterm color palette, see

http://mkaz.com/ref/xterm_colors.html

...and don't forget the man pages :)


This should provide you with enough info on setting your preferred
colors. Getting a black (or any other color) background is not that
difficult, once you know how, and it's certainly helpful. You can
set transparency, background image and more according to your taste and
depending on what your preferred terminal supports.

(For the moment I don't use Gentoo at all, due to a diskcrash :(
Right now i'm stuck with Windoze xp (yuck). The only partitions working
are the boot and the NTFS... disks are cheap but i'm between jobs right
now :/)

/Regards Tony
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[-- Attachment #2: .Xdefaults --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 3175 bytes --]

Xft.dpi:       120
Xft.hinting:   1
Xft.hintstyle: hintfull
Xft.antialias: 1
Xft.rgba:      rgb

Xcursor.theme:        gentoo-silver

xterm*loginShell:     True
xterm*vt100.translations: #override
<KeyPress>Home:  scroll-back(100,page)
<KeyPress>End:   scroll-forw(100,page) 
<KeyPress>Prior: scroll-back(1,page)
<KeyPress>Next:  scroll-forw(1,page)

XTerm*highlightSelection: true
XTerm*VT100.colorBDMode:  on
XTerm*VT100.colorBD:      blue
XTerm*VT100.colorULMode:  on
XTerm*VT100.colorUL:      magenta
XTerm*VT100.titeInhibit:  true
XTerm*VT100.colorMode:    on
XTerm*VT100.dynamicColors:on
XTerm*VT100.underLine:    off
XTerm*internalBorder:     10
XTerm*externalBorder:     10
XTerm*eightBitInput:      True
XTerm*eightBitOutput:     True
XTerm*geometry:           132x30
XTerm*background:  #000000
XTerm*foreground:  #7f7f7f
XTerm*color0:      #000000
XTerm*color1:      #9e1828
XTerm*color2:      #aece92
XTerm*color3:      #968a38
XTerm*color4:      #414171
XTerm*color5:      #963c59
XTerm*color6:      #418179
XTerm*color7:      #bebebe
XTerm*color8:      #666666
XTerm*color9:      #cf6171
XTerm*color10:     #c5f779
XTerm*color11:     #fff796
XTerm*color12:     #4186be
XTerm*color13:     #cf9ebe
XTerm*color14:     #71bebe
XTerm*color15:     #ffffff

urxvt.depth:             32
urxvt.urlLauncher:       firefox
urxvt*termName:          rxvt-unicode
urxvt*keysym.Home:       \\e[1~
urxvt*keysym.End:        \\e[4~
urxvt*colorBD:           #FFFFFF
urxvt*colorIT:           #FFFFFF
urxvt*font:              xft:DejaVu Sans Mono:size=7:antialias=true
urxvt*boldFont:          xft:DejaVu Sans Mono:bold:size=7:antialias=true
urxvt*italicFont:        xft:DejaVu Sans Mono:italic:size=7:antialias=true:autohint=true
urxvt*boldItalicFont:    xft:DejaVu Sans Mono:bold:italic:size=7:antialias=true:autohint=true
urxvt*secondaryScroll:   true
urxvt.cursorUnderline:   1
!urxvt.cursorBlink:       1
urxvt*inheritPixmap:     True
urxvt*scrollBar:         False
urxvt*scrollBar_right:   False
!urxvt*transpscroll:      True
urxvt*transparent:       True
urxvt*savelines:         32000
urxvt*visualBell:        True
urxvt*internalBorder:    10
urxvt*externalBorder:    10
urxvt*loginShell:        True
urxvt*fading:	         52
urxvt*fadeColor:         BlueViolet
urxvt*shading:           64
urxvt*geometry:          132x30
urxvt*tinting:           True
urxvt*tintColor:         Sienna3
urxvt*borderLess:        True
urxvt*utmpInhibit:       True
urxvt*scrollTtyOutput:   False
urxvt*scrollWithBuffer:  True
urxvt*scrollTtyKeypress: True
urxvt*cursorColor:       #8a8a8a
urxvt*background:        #000000
urxvt*foreground:        #FFFFFF
! #7f7f7f
urxvt*color0:            #000000
urxvt*color1:            #9e1828
urxvt*color2:            #aece92
urxvt*color3:            #968a38
urxvt*color4:            #414171
urxvt*color5:            #963c59
urxvt*color6:            #418179
urxvt*color7:            #bebebe
urxvt*color8:            #666666
urxvt*color9:            #cf6171
urxvt*color10:           #c5f779
urxvt*color11:           #fff796
urxvt*color12:           #4186be
urxvt*color13:           #cf9ebe
urxvt*color14:           #71bebe
urxvt*color15:           #FFFFFF

[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[»Q«]

"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:

> On Thursday 05 April 2007, felix@crowfix.com wrote about 'Re:
> [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized
> output?!?':
> > 31334  
> 
> I think you meant 31337.

I thought he was estimating how many posters took his bait.

-- 
»Q«

-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Mick]

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On Wednesday 04 April 2007 07:22, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
> On Wednesday 04 April 2007 08:19:47 Graham Murray wrote:
> > Bo Ørsted Andresen <bo.andresen@zlin.dk> writes:
> > > First of all I believe most people (including myself) very much prefer
> > > colors over no colors (no I cannot qualify with any numbers..). That
> > > does not, however, mean that the pipe detection and --color switch etc.
> > > shouldn't be honoured. It should (and it does here).
> >
> > Though, as less can display colours, it might be good if the pipe
> > detection did *not* disable colour output but require the user to use
> > the --no-color switch to disable them.
>
> Not really. Just use --color=y if you want colors through a pipe.

Hmm, neither less not cat give me color output.  Passing --color=y to either 
tells me things like:
==============================
There is no color=y option ("less --help" for help)
==============================

I also tried --color but it's all still shown in black & white.  How do you 
pipe a file and get it to show in color?  Am I missing something in 
my .bashrc or elsewhere?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2007-04-05, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 14:45:15 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> > Those particular colours are less useful, because they are designed
>> > for a black background,  
>> 
>> But the default background on terminals under X has always been
>> white (at least as long as I remember).  Are there really a lot
>> of Gentoo users who just run on the console and don't use X?
>
> Until recently, it was all Gentoo users, since the installation was done
> fro a virtual console.

Nah.  I almost always do 90% of the install from an aterm (with
a white bacground).

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Life is a POPULARITY
                                  at               CONTEST! I'm REFRESHINGLY
                               visi.com            CANDID!!

-- 
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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2007-04-05, Tony Stohne <tstohne@bredband.net> wrote:
>
> Grant Edwards said the following on 2007-04-05 16:45:
>| ...
>| My point was why default to something that isn't useful for the
>| standard terminal emulators like xterm, aterm, rxvt, etc.  Are
>| there common terminal emulators that default to a black
>| background?
>|
> You always have the options of changing the colors in xterm/rxvt/aterm
> etc to your preferred colors, background color included.

That will change the colors that are used by 'ls' without
breaking other programs that use color?

> The first one is changing the /usr/share/X11/rgb.txt file. The
> problem with changing it is that it usually gets overwritten
> with every xorg-x11 update.
>
> I prefer changing the .Xdefaults file in my user & root
> directories. That way any updates don't screw up my
> preferences.
>
> To see my current .Xdefaults, please look at the attached file
> - I have dropped Eterm & aterm. Rxvt is very resource
> efficient :) I use xterm as a fallback.

I used rxvt for many years until cut/paste stopped working for
me a couple years back.

> This should provide you with enough info on setting your preferred
> colors. Getting a black (or any other color) background is not that
> difficult,

But I don't _want_ a black background.  I want a white
background and a black foreground.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  YOW!!! I am having
                                  at               fun!!!
                               visi.com            

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Tony Stohne]

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Grant Edwards said the following on 2007-04-05 19:51:

|> Grant Edwards said the following on 2007-04-05 16:45:
|> | ...
| That will change the colors that are used by 'ls' without
| breaking other programs that use color?
|
The colors of any other program should be unaffected unless they are
dependending on the console colors AFAIK. And yes, ls colors will
change, as long as You use the xterminal which colors you have changed,
eg xterm, rxvt and so on .

I think there is a third alternative to rgb.txt and ~/.Xdefaults.
bash DIRCOLORS is an option and it will affect ls.

| I used rxvt for many years until cut/paste stopped working for
| me a couple years back.
|
Hmmm... I never had that problem so I can't help you with that one :/
Maybe someone else has more knowledge/experience than me regarding this
issue.

|> This should provide you with enough info on setting your preferred
|> colors. Getting a black (or any other color) background is not that
|> difficult,
|
| But I don't _want_ a black background.  I want a white
| background and a black foreground.
|
As  my previous posting stated, you can set whatever color (your
preferred xterminal app supports) for background and foreground , ie you
can choose white foreground on black background or any other combination
you prefer:

For instance

XTerm*background:  #ffffff
XTerm*foreground:  #000000

in your ¨/.Xdefaults

should set black on white as default values for any xterm you open
(although portage could override it (?) since it's a python app(?) if my
memory doesn't fail me. Right now i can't verify if it works or not
because of my / disk crapping out on me.) I'm stuck Windoze again :(

I'm surprised that turning off colors for portage/emerge doesn't work.
It sounds like a very odd behaviour - it has always worked for me
whenever I tried it (although I prefer using colors - a matter of
personal taste - or lack thereof :)

//Cheers Tony
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Bothwick]

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Hello Grant Edwards,

> > Until recently, it was all Gentoo users, since the installation was
> > done from a virtual console.  
> 
> Nah.  I almost always do 90% of the install from an aterm (with
> a white bacground).

Only if you're installing via SSH, otherwise 90% of the install was done
before you could run an xterm.

A VC is always available, an xterm is usually available, so it makes
sense to base defaults on a VC.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Another casualty of applied metaphysics.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Francesco Talamona]

On Thursday 05 April 2007, Grant Edwards wrote:
> I used rxvt for many years until cut/paste stopped working for
> me a couple years back.

Me too!!
I was in love with rxvt... So I switched to (urxvt) 
x11-terms/rxvt-unicode, it is basically the same but fully functional.

Ciao
	Francesco

-- 
Linux Version 2.6.20-gentoo-r4, Compiled #1 PREEMPT Sun Mar 25 09:20:13 
CEST 2007
One 2.2GHz AMD Athlon 64 Processor, 2GB RAM, 4408.89 Bogomips Total
aemaeth
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Tony Stohne]

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Tony Stohne said the following on 2007-04-05 20:26:
...
| I think there is a third alternative to rgb.txt and ~/.Xdefaults.
| bash DIRCOLORS is an option and it will affect ls.
|
For clarification - dircolors ar not dependent of bash.
It is supported in other shells as well, eg csh or bourne.

The command

dircolors -p

should print out the default, ie compiled-in, colors and provides quite
a bit of info on the possibilities. The output is actually a valid
configuration.

//T
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Tony Stohne]

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Francesco Talamona said the following on 2007-04-05 20:33:
|
| Me too!!
| I was in love with rxvt... So I switched to (urxvt)
| x11-terms/rxvt-unicode, it is basically the same but fully functional.
|
Yes, urxvt is my choice too :) Amen to that!

//Ciao ragazzo :)
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Tony Stohne]

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Mick said the following on 2007-04-05 19:07:
| ...
| Hmm, neither less not cat give me color output.  Passing --color=y to
either
| tells me things like:
| ==============================
| There is no color=y option ("less --help" for help)
| ==============================
|
| I also tried --color but it's all still shown in black & white.  How
do you
| pipe a file and get it to show in color?  Am I missing something in
| my .bashrc or elsewhere?

To make less interpret color escape sequences, you need the -R option.
export LESS=-R in your shell startup script and you-ll have it as
default. Generally, you don't want to use less -r, which allows
arbitrary control characters through to affect the terminal (which tend
to create major garbage).

Color is added via ANSI escape sequences, which don't work in all
displays/terminals/consoles, but as an example: grep is smart enough to
detect this and won't use color (even when specified) if you're sending
the output via a pipeline. Otherwise, if you piped the output, eg to
less, the ANSI escape sequences would send garbage to the screen.

~ If, on the other hand, that's really what you want to do (without the
garbage), there's a workaround:

use the --color=always to force it through and call less with the -R
flag (which prints ALL RAW control characters). That way, the color
codes will escape correctly and you'll page through screens of text with
your matched patterns in full color:

grep --color=always "regexp" the_file_you_want_to_wade_through | less -R

That should do the trick :)

//Regards Tony

PS. Have a nice Easter everyone!
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Tony Stohne]

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Tony Stohne said the following on 2007-04-05 21:07:
| ...
| To make less interpret color escape sequences, you need the -R option.
| export LESS=-R in your shell startup script and you-ll have it as
| default.

or simply put "alias less=less -R", without the quotes, in your
~/.bashrc or in the systemwide bashrc in /etc.

//T
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Tony Stohne]

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Tony Stohne said the following on 2007-04-05 21:14:
| ...
| or simply put "alias less=less -R", without the quotes, in your
| ~/.bashrc or in the systemwide bashrc in /etc.
|
Ooops - sorry for the redundant info. I'm a bit tired...

//T
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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2007-04-05, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> Hello Grant Edwards,
>
>> > Until recently, it was all Gentoo users, since the installation was
>> > done from a virtual console.  
>> 
>> Nah.  I almost always do 90% of the install from an aterm (with
>> a white bacground).
>
> Only if you're installing via SSH,

Which is how I do all my installs.

> A VC is always available, an xterm is usually available, so it makes
> sense to base defaults on a VC.

I would pick a default that works for both, but I guess I'm
weird.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Is it 1974? What's
                                  at               for SUPPER? Can I spend my
                               visi.com            COLLEGE FUND in one wild
                                                   afternoon??

-- 
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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Christer Ekholm]

[This is a followup to the whole thread, not any particular posting]

Something interesting just happened to me that I would like to share.

I realized that I have a program called usetool that I must have
installed some time. What is that i thought, so my first try to find
out was to try 'man usetool'.  ...No manpage.

Ok, next try, 'usetool -h' ...Good it has documentation, unfortunately
the coloring made it unreadable, but with a lot of effort and
eye-strain I could at least see that it has the -nc option.

Ok, next try, 'usetool -nc -h' ...Dissapointment, still unreadable!


I just wanted to let you know since it has relevance in this
quarrel. I realize that the correct way to report this is to the
bugzilla, and I will do that.


--
 Christer

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 19:52:28 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:

> > Only if you're installing via SSH,  
> 
> Which is how I do all my installs.

Even the first?

> > A VC is always available, an xterm is usually available, so it makes
> > sense to base defaults on a VC.  
> 
> I would pick a default that works for both, but I guess I'm
> weird.

There aren't many colours that display clearly on both black and white
backgrounds :(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Clap on <clap clap> Clap off <clap clap> NO CARRIEþ®©¼

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorizedoutput?!?

[b.n.]

felix@crowfix.com ha scritto:

>  When the first
> colors were added to emerge, did no one think hard coded magic
> constants were wrong?  

I'm not that big developer (I just hack some python here and there, and 
I'm trying to learn c++), but I agree, hard coded magic constants are 
99.999% of times bad.
Probably 1)however those people honestly thought that hard coded colour 
was better than nothing and 2)that colour was indeed useful (for me, it 
is) 3)"we can put color now and think about themes etc. later". Yes, 
kludgish attitude, but IMHO better than pushing portage back just 
because of wanting to do colour thing 100% right or not doing it at all.

You seem to be able to hack the portage code. Why don't you join the 
gentoo dev team and send a patch for customizable, themeable colour? 
Stop whining at stupid developers -show them you're indeed a better 
developer! Where are your guts? ;)

> When devs think it good to colorize everybody's
> terminal without regard to long established UNIX custom of using just
> simple plain text, I am told that gentoo is not UNIX.  Good grief,
> what an attitude!

Yes, gentoo is not UNIX. Face it. Gentoo is even not Linux: there is a 
gentoo-freebsd distribution and I know of a fellow that tried to do a 
Gentoo-GNU Hurd. Linux and GNU Hurd are UNIX-like systems, but are not 
plain UNIX (*BSD probably can be considered true UNIXen) -Linux is 
mostly POSIX compliant AFAIK, but it's not certified to be 100%.

The fact is, Gentoo is a package management system (ebuilds+portage or 
paludis) and a philosophy. I wouldn't find strange to see Gentoo-ReactOS 
or Gentoo-Haiku systems in the future, thus applying Gentoo to free 
software operating systems that are all but Unix-like.

Moreover, operating systems evolve. What you call a departure from 
tradition, probably most people call a new and nice feature.

> When the gentoo dev community stops spouting nonsense about gentoo is
> not unix, 

This is not nonsense. This is the plain truth, as I showed you before. 
If you want real UNIX, buy a PDP-11 and install plain old UNIX on it. ;)

> stops pointing fingers at third party software which was
> written to work with gentoo software, 

??

> and stops blaming users for
> preferring white backgrounds, then they will have earned some respect.

I agree with the request of themeable colour, but how you are justifying 
yourself is plain nonsense.

m.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2007-04-05, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 19:52:28 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> > Only if you're installing via SSH,  
>> 
>> Which is how I do all my installs.
>
> Even the first?

Yup.

>> > A VC is always available, an xterm is usually available, so it makes
>> > sense to base defaults on a VC.  
>> 
>> I would pick a default that works for both, but I guess I'm
>> weird.
>
> There aren't many colours that display clearly on both black and white
> backgrounds :(

Thay's why using colors by default can be a problem.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I'm dressing up in
                                  at               an ill-fitting IVY-LEAGUE
                               visi.com            SUIT!! Too late...

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 296 bytes --]

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:41:12 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:

> Thay's why using colors by default can be a problem.

Except you edit make.conf before you emerge anything and guess where you
turn off the colours :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 20: Synthetic natural gas

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[b.n.]

Neil Bothwick ha scritto:
> Hello Grant Edwards,
> 
>>> Until recently, it was all Gentoo users, since the installation was
>>> done from a virtual console.  
>> Nah.  I almost always do 90% of the install from an aterm (with
>> a white bacground).
> 
> Only if you're installing via SSH, otherwise 90% of the install was done
> before you could run an xterm.

Technically not (I installed my desktop box from a Knoppix cd instead of 
the Gentoo cd, chrooting etc.).

However I like the black background and I always set that on my xterms, 
so I never noticed the problem.

m.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[W.Kenworthy]

On Thu, 2007-04-05 at 18:07 +0100, Mick wrote:
> On Wednesday 04 April 2007 07:22, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
> > On Wednesday 04 April 2007 08:19:47 Graham Murray wrote:
> > > Bo Ørsted Andresen <bo.andresen@zlin.dk> writes:
> > > > First of all I believe most people (including myself) very much prefer
...
> >
> > Not really. Just use --color=y if you want colors through a pipe.
> 
> Hmm, neither less not cat give me color output.  Passing --color=y to either 
> tells me things like:
> ==============================
> There is no color=y option ("less --help" for help)
> ==============================
...

What I would like to know is why less in a console does give colour
syntax highlighting, but does NOT do so in any of the X terminals Ive
tried ...

I did bring this up on the list some time back and I think its a bug,
but lost track of the thread due to lack of time.

BillK

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Graham Murray]

"W.Kenworthy" <billk@iinet.net.au> writes:

> What I would like to know is why less in a console does give colour
> syntax highlighting, but does NOT do so in any of the X terminals Ive
> tried ...

Or why when run in a console the output stays on the screen when you
exit less, thus allowing you to refer to it when typing the next
command, but in an X terminal it 'collapses' to just the command
prompt on exit. 
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 434 bytes --]

Hello Graham Murray,

> Or why when run in a console the output stays on the screen when you
> exit less, thus allowing you to refer to it when typing the next
> command, but in an X terminal it 'collapses' to just the command
> prompt on exit. 

That one was enough to get me to switch from less to most, although that
has its limitations too :(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Scrotum is a small planet near Uranus. True/False?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Paul Colquhoun]

On Fri, 6 Apr 2007, Benno Schulenberg wrote:
> Graham Murray wrote:
> > Or why when run in a console the output stays on the screen when
> > you exit less, thus allowing you to refer to it when typing the
> > next command, but in an X terminal it 'collapses' to just the
> > command prompt on exit.
> 
> If you want the VT behaviour also in X, then alias less to 
> 'TERM=linux less'.  (There's probably a better way, but this works.)


'less -X' works when I try it.


-- 
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC.    http://andor.dropbear.id.au/~paulcol
     Asking for technical help in newsgroups?  Read this first:
        http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 339 bytes --]

On Thursday 05 April 2007 19:07:33 Mick wrote:
> > Not really. Just use --color=y if you want colors through a pipe.
>
> Hmm, neither less not cat give me color output.  Passing --color=y to
> either tells me things like:

--color=y was for emerge to enable colors through a pipe. less needs -R to 
show them.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Mick]

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On Thursday 05 April 2007 20:07, Tony Stohne wrote:
> Mick said the following on 2007-04-05 19:07:
> | ...
> | Hmm, neither less not cat give me color output.  Passing --color=y to
>
> either
>
> | tells me things like:
> | ==============================
> | There is no color=y option ("less --help" for help)
> | ==============================
> |
> | I also tried --color but it's all still shown in black & white.  How
>
> do you
>
> | pipe a file and get it to show in color?  Am I missing something in
> | my .bashrc or elsewhere?
>
> To make less interpret color escape sequences, you need the -R option.
> export LESS=-R in your shell startup script and you-ll have it as
> default. Generally, you don't want to use less -r, which allows
> arbitrary control characters through to affect the terminal (which tend
> to create major garbage).
>
> Color is added via ANSI escape sequences, which don't work in all
> displays/terminals/consoles, but as an example: grep is smart enough to
> detect this and won't use color (even when specified) if you're sending
> the output via a pipeline. Otherwise, if you piped the output, eg to
> less, the ANSI escape sequences would send garbage to the screen.
>
> ~ If, on the other hand, that's really what you want to do (without the
> garbage), there's a workaround:
>
> use the --color=always to force it through and call less with the -R
> flag (which prints ALL RAW control characters). That way, the color
> codes will escape correctly and you'll page through screens of text with
> your matched patterns in full color:
>
> grep --color=always "regexp" the_file_you_want_to_wade_through | less -R
>
> That should do the trick :)

Thank you Tony,

That's good.  It shows the regexp in colour and makes it easy to find amidst 
the text.  However, what I had in mind was many different colours, like I can 
see e.g. in vim?  Is such a thing possible with cat or less?

BTW, I had alias less="less -r" in my .bashrc, but changed to -R as suggested.

Happy Easter to All!
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 986 bytes --]

On Friday 06 April 2007 12:06, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:

> --color=y was for emerge to enable colors through a pipe. less needs -R to
> show them.

I'm coming to the conclusion that something must be amiss in my set up because 
with or without -R, less shows black & white content only.

This is an extract of my .bashrc:
============================
# /etc/skel/.bashrc:
# $Header: /home/cvsroot/gentoo-src/rc-scripts/etc/skel/.bashrc,v 1.8 
2003/02/28
 15:45:35 azarah Exp $

# This file is sourced by all *interactive* bash shells on startup.  This
# file *should generate no output* or it will break the scp and rcp commands.

# colors for ls, etc.
eval `dircolors -b /etc/DIR_COLORS`
alias d="ls --color"
alias ls="ls --color=auto"
alias ll="ls --color -l"
alias cp="cp -iv"
alias mv="mv -iv"
alias rm="rm -iv"
alias grep='grep --color=auto'
#alias less="less -R"
alias diff=colordiff
============================

Any ideas?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 651 bytes --]

On Thursday 05 April 2007 19:36, Tony Stohne wrote:
> Tony Stohne said the following on 2007-04-05 20:26:
> ...
>
> | I think there is a third alternative to rgb.txt and ~/.Xdefaults.
> | bash DIRCOLORS is an option and it will affect ls.
>
> For clarification - dircolors ar not dependent of bash.
> It is supported in other shells as well, eg csh or bourne.
>
> The command
>
> dircolors -p
>
> should print out the default, ie compiled-in, colors and provides quite
> a bit of info on the possibilities. The output is actually a valid
> configuration.

It seems to print out the contents of /etc/DIR_COLORS.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 630 bytes --]

On Wednesday 04 April 2007 22:36, b.n. wrote:

> *slap on the forehead* Oh my god, now I understand it all. You are using
> a WHITE xterm background.
>
> The Gentoo colours make complete sense on a BLACK background. I do agree
> that they are insane on a white or otherwise light background.
>
> I was thinking you were quite mad :) ,however now I agree with your
> point (even if I don't agree with your ranting attitude: as repeated a
> TON of times, your options are 1)file bugs 2)become a gentoo dev 3)stop
> using Gentoo).

or, 4)switch to a black background?

What-ever floats you boat.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Tony Stohne]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mick said the following on 2007-04-06 17:44:
| ...
| That's good.  It shows the regexp in colour and makes it easy to find
amidst
| the text.  However, what I had in mind was many different colours,
like I can
| see e.g. in vim?  Is such a thing possible with cat or less?
|

Not as far as I know, but maybe someone with more xpertise can enlighten
us on this.

//T
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Tony Stohne]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mick said the following on 2007-04-06 18:18:
|
| It seems to print out the contents of /etc/DIR_COLORS.
It does, ie it shows the DIR_COLORS config.
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=u0y+
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Dan Farrell]

On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 21:07:02 +0200
Tony Stohne <tstohne@bredband.net> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Mick said the following on 2007-04-05 19:07:
> | ...
> | Hmm, neither less not cat give me color output.  Passing --color=y
> to either
> | tells me things like:
> | ==============================
> | There is no color=y option ("less --help" for help)
> | ==============================
> |
> | I also tried --color but it's all still shown in black & white.  How
> do you
> | pipe a file and get it to show in color?  Am I missing something in
> | my .bashrc or elsewhere?
> 
> To make less interpret color escape sequences, you need the -R option.
> export LESS=-R in your shell startup script and you-ll have it as
> default. Generally, you don't want to use less -r, which allows
> arbitrary control characters through to affect the terminal (which
> tend to create major garbage).
> 
> Color is added via ANSI escape sequences, which don't work in all
> displays/terminals/consoles, but as an example: grep is smart enough
> to detect this and won't use color (even when specified) if you're
> sending the output via a pipeline. Otherwise, if you piped the
> output, eg to less, the ANSI escape sequences would send garbage to
> the screen.
> 
> ~ If, on the other hand, that's really what you want to do (without
> the garbage), there's a workaround:
> 
> use the --color=always to force it through and call less with the -R
> flag (which prints ALL RAW control characters). That way, the color
> codes will escape correctly and you'll page through screens of text
> with your matched patterns in full color:
> 
> grep --color=always "regexp" the_file_you_want_to_wade_through | less
> -R
> 
> That should do the trick :)
> 
> //Regards Tony
> 
> PS. Have a nice Easter everyone!
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (MingW32)
> 
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> VgMOQFi+i5rwL2p0rpljZ70=
> =w/na
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hey tony,  maybe this is beyond your control, or maybe you don't care,
and if not i respect your autonomy in such matters, but your reply
block punctuation character '|' defeats the very helpful colorization
of my and many other browsers that use the usual '>' character to
identify reply text.  It makes your letters nearly unreadable.  
respects, - dan
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Dan Farrell]

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 14:24:02 +0000 (UTC)
Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:

> On 2007-04-05, Alexander Skwar <listen@alexander.skwar.name> wrote:
> > Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Why not default to a _useful_ condition?
> >
> > But, it does! The colors are very useful!
> 
> Only on certain terminals.  They're quite unreadable on a white
> background (which has always been the default for xterm and
> it's descendants, right?).
> 
Why this is the case, I don't think I'll ever understand.  White
terminal backgrounds, aside from the invisible color problem, also are
hella ugly.  
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Mike Markowski]

Dan Farrell wrote:
> 
> ...White
> terminal backgrounds, aside from the invisible color problem, also are
> hella ugly.  

When I look between reading printed papers or journals and the computer
screen I like windows with white background (actually a little
off-white) & black text.  That way I can quickly look between the two
without needing to get reaccustomed to different colors.  No biggie
either way, but everyone's needs are different.

Mike
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Tony Stohne]

Dan Farrell said the following on 2007-04-07 19:26:
> > Hey tony,  maybe this is beyond your control, or maybe you don't care,
> and if not i respect your autonomy in such matters, but your reply
> block punctuation character '|' defeats the very helpful colorization
> of my and many other browsers that use the usual '>' character to
> identify reply text.  It makes your letters nearly unreadable.  
> respects, - dan

I'm sorry about that. I think it has to do with the GnuPG/Enigmail 
installation on this box. I'll try to fix it in some way.

Thus, this mail is unsigned, while I'm trying to find the reason.

//T
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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2007-04-07, Dan Farrell <dan@spore.ath.cx> wrote:

>> Only on certain terminals.  They're quite unreadable on a white
>> background (which has always been the default for xterm and
>> it's descendants, right?).
>
> Why this is the case, I don't think I'll ever understand.
> White terminal backgrounds, aside from the invisible color
> problem, also are hella ugly.

Many people disagree.  I think black backgrounds are "hella
ugly" and hard to read for long periods of time.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  ... I want FORTY-TWO
                                  at               TRYNEL FLOATATION SYSTEMS
                               visi.com            installed withinSIX AND A
                                                   HALF HOURS!!!

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Re: [gentoo-user] sylpheed claws quotes colourisation (was: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?)

[Renat Golubchyk]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1608 bytes --]

On Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:26:31 -0500 Dan Farrell <dan@spore.ath.cx> wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 21:07:02 +0200
> Tony Stohne <tstohne@bredband.net> wrote:
> > Mick said the following on 2007-04-05 19:07:
> > | ...
> > | Hmm, neither less not cat give me color output.  Passing --color=y
> > to either
> > | tells me things like:
> > | ==============================
> > | There is no color=y option ("less --help" for help)
> > | ==============================
> > |
> > | I also tried --color but it's all still shown in black & white.
> > | How
> > do you
> > | pipe a file and get it to show in color?  Am I missing something
> > | in my .bashrc or elsewhere?
> > 
> > 
> > That should do the trick :)
> > 
> > //Regards Tony
> > 
> > PS. Have a nice Easter everyone!
> Hey tony,  maybe this is beyond your control, or maybe you don't care,
> and if not i respect your autonomy in such matters, but your reply
> block punctuation character '|' defeats the very helpful colorization
> of my and many other browsers that use the usual '>' character to
> identify reply text.  It makes your letters nearly unreadable.  
> respects, - dan

I use Sylpheed Claws as you do and colours work fine here. You can
define '|' as quotation character in Configuration --> Preferences -->
Compose --> Quoting. Just set ">|" as quotation characters and both '>'
and '|' will be recognised and properly colourised.

Cheers,
Renat

-- 
Probleme kann man niemals mit derselben Denkweise loesen,
durch die sie entstanden sind.
                                              (Einstein)

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Re: [gentoo-user] sylpheed claws quotes colourisation (was: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?)

[Dan Farrell]

On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 01:07:30 +0200
Renat Golubchyk <ragermany@gmx.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:26:31 -0500 Dan Farrell <dan@spore.ath.cx>
> wrote:
> > On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 21:07:02 +0200
> > Tony Stohne <tstohne@bredband.net> wrote:
> > > Mick said the following on 2007-04-05 19:07:
> > > | ...
> > > | Hmm, neither less not cat give me color output.  Passing
> > > | --color=y
> > > to either
> > > | tells me things like:
> > > | ==============================
> > > | There is no color=y option ("less --help" for help)
> > > | ==============================
> > > |
> > > | I also tried --color but it's all still shown in black & white.
> > > | How
> > > do you
> > > | pipe a file and get it to show in color?  Am I missing something
> > > | in my .bashrc or elsewhere?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > That should do the trick :)
> > > 
> > > //Regards Tony
> > > 
> > > PS. Have a nice Easter everyone!
> > Hey tony,  maybe this is beyond your control, or maybe you don't
> > care, and if not i respect your autonomy in such matters, but your
> > reply block punctuation character '|' defeats the very helpful
> > colorization of my and many other browsers that use the usual '>'
> > character to identify reply text.  It makes your letters nearly
> > unreadable. respects, - dan
> 
> I use Sylpheed Claws as you do and colours work fine here. You can
> define '|' as quotation character in Configuration --> Preferences -->
> Compose --> Quoting. Just set ">|" as quotation characters and both
> '>' and '|' will be recognised and properly colourised.
> 
> Cheers,
> Renat
> 
Thanks !!! I'm a very visual person (useful for things like email ;) )
so that helps enormously.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 678 bytes --]

Hello Dan Farrell,

> Hey tony,  maybe this is beyond your control, or maybe you don't care,
> and if not i respect your autonomy in such matters, but your reply
> block punctuation character '|' defeats the very helpful colorization
> of my and many other browsers that use the usual '>' character to
> identify reply text.  It makes your letters nearly unreadable.  
> respects, - dan

I too use Claws Mail and | is correctly identified as a quote marker
here. It's been like that for as long as I can remember, even as far back
as the old version you are using :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The program is absolutely right; therefore, the computer must be wrong.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Bothwick]

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Hello Dan Farrell,

> Why this is the case, I don't think I'll ever understand.  White
> terminal backgrounds, aside from the invisible color problem, also are
> hella ugly. 

Many people find black on white far easier to read than white on black,
for the same fonts and sizes.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Memory Map - A sheet of paper showing location of computer store.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Alexander Skwar]

· Graham Murray <graham@gmurray.org.uk>:

> Or why when run in a console the output stays on the screen when you
> exit less, thus allowing you to refer to it when typing the next
> command, but in an X terminal it 'collapses' to just the command
> prompt on exit. 

That's because of certain features the terminal advertises
in its "termcap". I don't know which, but I do know, that this
is the reason.

Alexander Skwar
-- 
   Leela: Oh no, there's no exhaust pipe.
   Project Satan: That's right. Thanks to Ed Begley Jr.'s electric motor, the 
   most evil propulsion system ever conceived!


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Dan Farrell]

On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 09:36:20 +0100
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> Hello Dan Farrell,
> 
> > Hey tony,  maybe this is beyond your control, or maybe you don't
> > care, and if not i respect your autonomy in such matters, but your
> > reply block punctuation character '|' defeats the very helpful
> > colorization of my and many other browsers that use the usual '>'
> > character to identify reply text.  It makes your letters nearly
> > unreadable. respects, - dan
> 
> I too use Claws Mail and | is correctly identified as a quote marker
> here. It's been like that for as long as I can remember, even as far
> back as the old version you are using :)

I had to manually add it to the reply character enumeration.
Unfortunately, everything above syl.claws 2.4 is masked testing on
x86_64, and I don't want to get my hands dirty on this one.  Perhaps
one day... 
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 580 bytes --]

Hello Dan Farrell,

> Unfortunately, everything above syl.claws 2.4 is masked testing on
> x86_64, and I don't want to get my hands dirty on this one.  Perhaps
> one day... 

The problem here is that Claws development is proceeding so quickly that
no ebuild gets to spend the normal 30 days in testing before a new Claws
release. Having said that, I've never had a problem with the testing
ebuilds (they are still for stable Claws releases) on amd64 or ppc.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning
to others.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Mike Edenfield]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> Hello Dan Farrell,
> 
>> Why this is the case, I don't think I'll ever understand.  White
>> terminal backgrounds, aside from the invisible color problem, also are
>> hella ugly. 
> 
> Many people find black on white far easier to read than white on black,
> for the same fonts and sizes.

Clearly, though, black on white uses less photons.  Think of 
the children!

-- 
-- Mike

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[David Relson]

On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 17:56:21 +0100
Neil Bothwick wrote:

> Hello Dan Farrell,
> 
> > Unfortunately, everything above syl.claws 2.4 is masked testing on
> > x86_64, and I don't want to get my hands dirty on this one.  Perhaps
> > one day... 
> 
> The problem here is that Claws development is proceeding so quickly
> that no ebuild gets to spend the normal 30 days in testing before a
> new Claws release. Having said that, I've never had a problem with
> the testing ebuilds (they are still for stable Claws releases) on
> amd64 or ppc.

Dan,

I used Sylpheed-Claws for several years, with the past 6 months being
on Gentoo.  Given the still rapid pace of claws' development (as
Neil mentions), the only way to have new features and fixes for
old is to turn on ~x86.  Even though officially "experimental",
the releases are all very, very usable.  

My recommendation is to add mail-client/claws-mail to package.keywords
and run the latest version of claws-mail.  You'll end up with a good
program that, if not perfect, is 99.9% perfect :->

Regards,

David
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Dan Farrell]

On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 19:25:03 -0400
David Relson <relson@osagesoftware.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 17:56:21 +0100
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
> 
> > Hello Dan Farrell,
> > 
> > > Unfortunately, everything above syl.claws 2.4 is masked testing on
> > > x86_64, and I don't want to get my hands dirty on this one.
> > > Perhaps one day... 
> > 
> > The problem here is that Claws development is proceeding so quickly
> > that no ebuild gets to spend the normal 30 days in testing before a
> > new Claws release. Having said that, I've never had a problem with
> > the testing ebuilds (they are still for stable Claws releases) on
> > amd64 or ppc.
> 
> Dan,
> 
> I used Sylpheed-Claws for several years, with the past 6 months being
> on Gentoo.  Given the still rapid pace of claws' development (as
> Neil mentions), the only way to have new features and fixes for
> old is to turn on ~x86.  Even though officially "experimental",
> the releases are all very, very usable.  
> 
> My recommendation is to add mail-client/claws-mail to package.keywords
> and run the latest version of claws-mail.  You'll end up with a good
> program that, if not perfect, is 99.9% perfect :->
> 
> Regards,
> 
> David

All right, fine. You've convinced me ; )  - Dan
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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Dan Farrell]

On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 14:49:20 -0400
Mike Edenfield <kutulu@kutulu.org> wrote:

> Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > Hello Dan Farrell,
> > 
> >> Why this is the case, I don't think I'll ever understand.  White
> >> terminal backgrounds, aside from the invisible color problem, also
> >> are hella ugly. 
> > 
> > Many people find black on white far easier to read than white on
> > black, for the same fonts and sizes.
> 
> Clearly, though, black on white uses less photons.  Think of 
> the children!
> 
I don't know, black on a CRt still uses a lot of photons I would
imagine.  In fact, I bet it uses the same amount of power.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Bryan Whitehead]

Go back to using Solaris ya old fart!

;)

felix@crowfix.com wrote:

>On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 07:36:49AM +0200, Bo ?rsted Andresen wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Weren't you talking about portage? In that case you should obviously file it 
>>against portage.. But yeah, any app that has a --nocolor equivalent that 
>>doesn't work deserves a bug report.. Even for apps that don't it's reasonable 
>>to file it as an enhancement request.
>>    
>>
>
>Oh for pete's sake, don't be so literal.  Esearch has screwed up.
>Emerge has screwed up.  Revdep-rebuild has screwed up.  Stop reading
>the leaves on the trees and paya ttention to the forest.  Your quibbly
>attitude is exactly the petulant behavior which makes me not want to
>waste my time filing bug reports on somebody's pet eye candy.
>
>  
>
>>First of all I believe most people (including myself) very much prefer colors 
>>over no colors (no I cannot qualify with any numbers..). That does not, 
>>however, mean that the pipe detection and --color switch etc. shouldn't be 
>>honoured. It should (and it does here). Secondly, how did you come up with 
>>the idea that a bug report would be dismissed if you never filed one?
>>    
>>
>
>The UNIX standard for ages has been simple text output.  Why must
>gentoo add trendy colors which change every time some eye candy
>fanatic gets a bug up his butt to change colors when he gets bored
>with the old fashioned colors?  the default ought to be colors OFF and
>you have to ask to get them.
>
>I choose fonts small enough to get maximum density with minimum eye
>strain.  The only way I could read these colors would be to increase
>the font size and decrease the density.  If gentoo developers think
>that a wise trade off when almost no other utility uses colors so much
>and so horribly, then gentoo is broken by design and no amount of bug
>reportage will change a damned thing.  Harmony is a nice design
>feature.  You ought to try it sometime.
>
>As long as I am ranting, I may as well throw in a few rants on the
>amateur kids who run gentoo; those who think the world should be
>thankful for their color choices are the same idiots who linked ls
>against a /usr/lib library and made my system ubootable, who removed
>libraries which LVM linked against during boot and made my system
>unbootable.  Gentoo has good points, starting with portage, but it
>also has innumerable insufferable knowitalls who make me gnash my
>teeth at their inconsiderate unthinking fad-of-the-week behavior.
>
>  
>
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FeatureRequest Was: Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Robert Welz]

Am 04.04.2007 um 06:17 schrieb felix@crowfix.com:

> Why do --nocolor and --color=n not work (sys-apps/portage-2.1.2.3)?
>
> Why does the damned thing default to thinking I want blaring bizarre
> colors scattered all over my screen?


I fully agree!

But not only for portage (emerge) but for the whole system.

Today I fought with a shell script:

#! /bin/bash
restart_result=`/etc/init.d/boinc restart
/usr/bin/echo -e "$restart_result" | /root/bin/mail "check chroots"  
cron-Oberon

and no simpe way to switch color and other ANSI Sequences to off  
exept by a regular expression.

bash color can sometimes be evil ;)

Robert



;););)
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Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Karl Haines]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Color is pretty ;) lol. It makes things interesting! I agree however
that there might need to be some way to turn it off easily.

Robert Welz wrote:
> 
> Am 04.04.2007 um 06:17 schrieb felix@crowfix.com:
> 
>> Why do --nocolor and --color=n not work (sys-apps/portage-2.1.2.3)?
>>
>> Why does the damned thing default to thinking I want blaring bizarre
>> colors scattered all over my screen?
> 
> 
> I fully agree!
> 
> But not only for portage (emerge) but for the whole system.
> 
> Today I fought with a shell script:
> 
> #! /bin/bash
> restart_result=`/etc/init.d/boinc restart
> /usr/bin/echo -e "$restart_result" | /root/bin/mail "check chroots"
> cron-Oberon
> 
> and no simpe way to switch color and other ANSI Sequences to off exept
> by a regular expression.
> 
> bash color can sometimes be evil ;)
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> 
> ;););)


- --
Karl Haines
(615)686-5043
karl@karlhaines.com
http://karlhaines.com/

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Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 915 bytes --]

On Sunday 10 June 2007, Karl Haines <karl@karlhaines.com> wrote about 'Re: 
FeatureRequest Was: Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love 
with colorized output?!?':
> Color is pretty ;) lol. It makes things interesting! I agree however
> that there might need to be some way to turn it off easily.

It should also be turned off by default for anything that's not a terminal. 
or a terminal whose termcap/terminfo/etc. doesn't support the ANSI color 
feature. One of the most annoying things I've ever seen is ANSI escape 
codes in emails and/or log files.  Gentoo is fairly good about that now, 
but I'm still having problem with RoR misbehaving in this way.

-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.                     ,= ,-_-. =. 
bss03@volumehost.net                      ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy           `-'(. .)`-' 
http://iguanasuicide.org/                      \_/     

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Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Kevin O'Gorman]

On 6/10/07, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:
> On Sunday 10 June 2007, Karl Haines <karl@karlhaines.com> wrote about 'Re:
> FeatureRequest Was: Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love
> with colorized output?!?':
> > Color is pretty ;) lol. It makes things interesting! I agree however
> > that there might need to be some way to turn it off easily.
>
> It should also be turned off by default for anything that's not a terminal.
> or a terminal whose termcap/terminfo/etc. doesn't support the ANSI color
> feature. One of the most annoying things I've ever seen is ANSI escape
> codes in emails and/or log files.  Gentoo is fairly good about that now,
> but I'm still having problem with RoR misbehaving in this way.
>

I also dislike the colorization, but for a more specific reason.  Gentoo seems
to assume one is using white on black rather than the default black on white
in terminal windows.  This makes yellow lettering entirely unreadable to me.
If I could just change all occurrences of yellow to orange (otherwise not
much used) I'd probably not mind so much,  but the entire scheme seems
to be hard-coded. And I don't like white-on-black even though it's labelled
"Linux console" in Konsole.

++ kevin

-- 
Kevin O'Gorman, PhD
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Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Daniel Pielmeier]

> I also dislike the colorization, but for a more specific reason.  Gentoo
> seems
> to assume one is using white on black rather than the default black on
> white
> in terminal windows.  This makes yellow lettering entirely unreadable to
> me.
> If I could just change all occurrences of yellow to orange (otherwise not
> much used) I'd probably not mind so much,  but the entire scheme seems
> to be hard-coded. And I don't like white-on-black even though it's labelled
> "Linux console" in Konsole.

I don't know if this was mentioned before and if it will fit your needs,
but you can change the default colors of portage-output with
/etc/portage/color.map.

Take a look here:
http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20060918-newsletter.xml
http://gentoo-wiki.com/TIP_Remap_Portage_Colors
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[gentoo-user] Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2007-06-10, Kevin O'Gorman <kogorman@gmail.com> wrote:

> I also dislike the colorization, but for a more specific
> reason.  Gentoo seems to assume one is using white on black
> rather than the default black on white in terminal windows.
> This makes yellow lettering entirely unreadable to me.

Same here.

> If I could just change all occurrences of yellow to orange
> (otherwise not much used) I'd probably not mind so much, but
> the entire scheme seems to be hard-coded.

Yup, and the responses to complaints that it's unreadible are
basically "shut up and change your terminal background to
black".

> And I don't like white-on-black even though it's labelled
> "Linux console" in Konsole.

I don't care how you label it, white-on-black is nasty. ;)

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow! Actually, what I'd
                                  at               like is a little toy
                               visi.com            spaceship!!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 635 bytes --]

On Sunday 10 June 2007, Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote 
about '[gentoo-user]  Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: Why are gentoo people so 
in love with colorized output?!?':
> I don't care how you label it, white-on-black is nasty. ;)

I feel the same way about black-on-white terminals.  Acually, I'd prefer 
black-on-white for everything but I haven't found a good KDE theme for 
that yet.

-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.                     ,= ,-_-. =. 
bss03@volumehost.net                      ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy           `-'(. .)`-' 
http://iguanasuicide.org/                      \_/     

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 621 bytes --]

On Sunday 10 June 2007, "Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> 
wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user]  Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: Why are gentoo 
people so in love with colorized output?!?':
> Acually, I'd prefer
> black-on-white

I meant white-on-black.  Dark backgrounds are just easier on my eyes.

> for everything but I haven't found a good KDE theme for 
> that yet.

-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.                     ,= ,-_-. =. 
bss03@volumehost.net                      ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy           `-'(. .)`-' 
http://iguanasuicide.org/                      \_/     

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Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Graham Murray]

"Kevin O'Gorman" <kogorman@gmail.com> writes:

> I also dislike the colorization, but for a more specific reason.  Gentoo seems
> to assume one is using white on black rather than the default black on white
> in terminal windows.  This makes yellow lettering entirely unreadable to me.
> If I could just change all occurrences of yellow to orange (otherwise not
> much used) I'd probably not mind so much,  but the entire scheme seems
> to be hard-coded. And I don't like white-on-black even though it's labelled
> "Linux console" in Konsole.

Maybe it should do something similar to emacs and automatically use a
different colour scheme depending on whether the terminal is 'dark on
light' or 'light on dark'.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Dan Farrell]

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:22:27 -0500
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:

> On Sunday 10 June 2007, "Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
> <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user]  Re:
> FeatureRequest Was: Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with
> colorized output?!?':

> I meant white-on-black.  Dark backgrounds are just easier on my eyes.

I agree.  To each his own, I suppose, but there's something just so
pleasing about a big black box with a blinking cursor in the top left,
after a little text.  
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Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Karl Haines]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Kevin O'Gorman wrote:
> On 6/10/07, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:
>> On Sunday 10 June 2007, Karl Haines <karl@karlhaines.com> wrote about
>> 'Re:
>> FeatureRequest Was: Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love
>> with colorized output?!?':
>> > Color is pretty ;) lol. It makes things interesting! I agree however
>> > that there might need to be some way to turn it off easily.
>>
>> It should also be turned off by default for anything that's not a
>> terminal.
>> or a terminal whose termcap/terminfo/etc. doesn't support the ANSI color
>> feature. One of the most annoying things I've ever seen is ANSI escape
>> codes in emails and/or log files.  Gentoo is fairly good about that now,
>> but I'm still having problem with RoR misbehaving in this way.
>>
> 
> I also dislike the colorization, but for a more specific reason.  Gentoo
> seems
> to assume one is using white on black rather than the default black on
> white
> in terminal windows.  This makes yellow lettering entirely unreadable to
> me.
> If I could just change all occurrences of yellow to orange (otherwise not
> much used) I'd probably not mind so much,  but the entire scheme seems
> to be hard-coded. And I don't like white-on-black even though it's labelled
> "Linux console" in Konsole.
> 
> ++ kevin
> 

I agree with this also, when using a term window in gnome, kde, etc, the
default is always black on white. I always go and change that right off
the bat. Ah, well. Gentoo is still the best, lets make it better!

- --
Karl Haines
(615)686-5043
karl@karlhaines.com
http://karlhaines.com/

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[gentoo-user] Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Alexander Skwar]

Robert Welz <welz@fixe-post.de> wrote:

> 
> Am 04.04.2007 um 06:17 schrieb felix@crowfix.com:
> 
>> Why do --nocolor and --color=n not work (sys-apps/portage-2.1.2.3)?
>>
>> Why does the damned thing default to thinking I want blaring bizarre
>> colors scattered all over my screen?

Because it makes things easier to read.

> Today I fought with a shell script:
> 
> #! /bin/bash
> restart_result=`/etc/init.d/boinc restart
> /usr/bin/echo -e "$restart_result" | /root/bin/mail "check chroots"
> cron-Oberon
> 
> and no simpe way to switch color and other ANSI Sequences to off

Where did you get colors? Init scripts support a "--nocolor" switch.
Did this switch not work? Or did you get colors somewhere else?

Alexander Skwar

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Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Bertram Scharpf]

Hi,

Am Sonntag, 10. Jun 2007, 15:06:03 -0500 schrieb Karl Haines:
> Color is pretty ;) lol. It makes things interesting! I agree however
> that there might need to be some way to turn it off easily.

As far as I see, most e* tools respond on an appended "|cat"
or have at least a non-color option. Ok, still there are
cursor positioning sequences.

I tried to switch them off; I managed to do this only by
modifing </sbin/functions.sh>. Further, when I give the
--nocolor option to an init script only the second line of
those below will lose its colour, the first one still
appears in green and blue.

 * Caching service dependencies ...                 * [ ok ]
 * Setting clock via the NTP client 'ntpdate' ...   * [ ok ]

Some time ago I happened to write an equery redesign in
Ruby, just for fun. It's far from perfect but it definitely
won't output any colors if you don't want them. Of course,
init scripts are more difficult to handle because they are
written in Bash. In case anyone finds the project is worth
being pursued, here's the code:

  http://www.bertram-scharpf.de/tmp/equery.rb

Bertram


-- 
Bertram Scharpf
Stuttgart, Deutschland/Germany
http://www.bertram-scharpf.de
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Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: [gentoo-user] Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Bertram Scharpf]

Hi,

Am Sonntag, 10. Jun 2007, 15:06:03 -0500 schrieb Karl Haines:
> Color is pretty ;) lol. It makes things interesting! I agree however
> that there might need to be some way to turn it off easily.

As far as I see, most e* tools respond on an appended "|cat"
or have at least a non-color option. Ok, still there are
cursor positioning sequences.

I tried to switch them off; I managed to do this only by
modifing </sbin/functions.sh>. Further, when I give the
--nocolor option to an init script only the second line of
those below will lose its colour, the first one still
appears in green and blue.

 * Caching service dependencies ...                 * [ ok ]
 * Setting clock via the NTP client 'ntpdate' ...   * [ ok ]

Some time ago I happened to write an equery redesign in
Ruby, just for fun. It's far from perfect but it definitely
won't output any colors if you don't want them. Of course,
init scripts are more difficult to handle because they are
written in Bash. In case anyone finds the project is worth
being pursued, here's the code:

  http://www.bertram-scharpf.de/tmp/equery.rb

Bertram


-- 
Bertram Scharpf
Stuttgart, Deutschland/Germany
http://www.bertram-scharpf.de
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: FeatureRequest Was: Re: Why are gentoo people so in love with colorized output?!?

[Robert Welz]

Am 11.06.2007 um 09:53 schrieb Alexander Skwar:

> Robert Welz <welz@fixe-post.de> wrote:
>
>>
>> Am 04.04.2007 um 06:17 schrieb felix@crowfix.com:
>>
>>> Why do --nocolor and --color=n not work (sys-apps/portage-2.1.2.3)?
>>>
>>> Why does the damned thing default to thinking I want blaring bizarre
>>> colors scattered all over my screen?
>
> Because it makes things easier to read.
>
>> Today I fought with a shell script:
>>
>> #! /bin/bash
>> restart_result=`/etc/init.d/boinc restart
>> /usr/bin/echo -e "$restart_result" | /root/bin/mail "check chroots"
>> cron-Oberon
>>
>> and no simpe way to switch color and other ANSI Sequences to off
>
> Where did you get colors? Init scripts support a "--nocolor" switch.
> Did this switch not work? Or did you get colors somewhere else?

Oh fine, that works:

restart_result=`/etc/init.d/boinc --nocolor restart`
/usr/bin/echo -e "$restart_result" | /root/bin/mail "check chroots"  
cron-Oberon

gives:

  * Service boinc stopping
  * Service boinc stopped
  * Service boinc starting
  * Service boinc started

instead of

  ^[[32;01m*^[[0m Service boinc stopping
  ^[[32;01m*^[[0m Service boinc stopped
  ^[[32;01m*^[[0m Service boinc starting
  ^[[32;01m*^[[0m Service boinc started


Thanks!

Robert




> Alexander Skwar
>
> -- 
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

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