[gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?

[gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?

[Jeff Rollin]

Hi all

A discussion on the staff blogs over at OSNews about the Linux desktop
got me thinking. Thom and Eugenia seem to think that "the linux
desktop peaked in 2001-2004", but I don't remember the hype around
Ubuntu starting till well after that. Their argument seemed to be that
because GNOME is running into problems and because KDE is behind
schedule, the Linux desktop is dead.

How true is this?

Jeff
-- 
Now, did you hear the news today?
They say the danger's gone away
But I can hear the marching feet
Moving into the street

Adapted from Genesis, "Land of Confusion"

http://latedeveloperbasketcase.blogspot.com
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Re: [gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?

[Justin Findlay]

On AD 2006 December 21 Thursday 02:32:15 AM +0000, Jeff Rollin wrote:
> because GNOME is running into problems and because KDE is behind
> schedule, the Linux desktop is dead.

Hahahaha!

That's funny.


Justin
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Re: [gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?

[Michael Sullivan]

On Wed, 2006-12-20 at 21:03 -0700, Justin Findlay wrote:
> On AD 2006 December 21 Thursday 02:32:15 AM +0000, Jeff Rollin wrote:
> > because GNOME is running into problems and because KDE is behind
> > schedule, the Linux desktop is dead.
> 
> Hahahaha!
> 
> That's funny.
> 
> 
> Justin

Would this be a good time to begin marketing "Linux Desktop:  Zombie
Edition"?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?

[Norman Rieß]

Jeff Rollin schrieb:
> Their argument seemed to be that
> because GNOME is running into problems and because KDE is behind
> schedule, the Linux desktop is dead.
>
> How true is this?
>
> Jeff
Like "uh, we cannot finish this tiny feature here in 3 days as planned, 
so let us give up the whole project"? :-)

And Linux is more popular than ever and gaining users (correct me if i 
am wrong). Developement on Gnome and KDE is going on..
So i do not see how they could be dead.
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RE: [gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?

[Nelson, David (ED, PAR&D)]

Hey fellow Gentoo-ers.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Norman Rieß [mailto:norman@smash-net.org]
> Sent: 21 December 2006 06:01
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?
> 
> 
> Jeff Rollin schrieb:
> > Their argument seemed to be that
> > because GNOME is running into problems and because KDE is behind
> > schedule, the Linux desktop is dead.
> >
> > How true is this?
> >
> > Jeff
> Like "uh, we cannot finish this tiny feature here in 3 days 
> as planned, 
> so let us give up the whole project"? :-)
> 
> And Linux is more popular than ever and gaining users 
> (correct me if i 
> am wrong). Developement on Gnome and KDE is going on..
> So i do not see how they could be dead.
> -- 
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> 

As long as someone uses Linux, and contributes code to it, it's alive IMO. In fact I would say that every month it becomes more and more useful and I only see Linux being behind on some gaming support and some other application specific support (eg the business I work for uses many applications that only run on windows, and I am not aware of linux equivelants).

Linux is more than sufficient for the average home user who goes on the internet to sell their junk on ebay, writes emails to relatives far away and watches a couple of films and listens to a few music tracks. I would say it was far from dead.

Even if the Linux kernel itself were to die the same set of apps (or at least a large percentage of them) that we use on our Linux boxes will work happily on BSD with some tweaking, surely :)

David

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Re: [gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?

[Uwe Thiem]

On 21 December 2006 04:32, Jeff Rollin wrote:
> Hi all
>
> A discussion on the staff blogs over at OSNews about the Linux desktop
> got me thinking. Thom and Eugenia seem to think that "the linux
> desktop peaked in 2001-2004", but I don't remember the hype around
> Ubuntu starting till well after that. Their argument seemed to be that
> because GNOME is running into problems and because KDE is behind
> schedule, the Linux desktop is dead.

What is this? First, Gentoo is thought to be unhealthy and now the whole Linux 
desktop is dead! Are people getting frustrated with the festive season and 
make up news about imminent catastrophes?

I can not and will not comment on GNOME. Why is KDE behind schedule? Its next 
release, 3.5.6, is in feature, documentation and message freeze. It will be 
tagged in SVN on 15.01.2007. Sounds on schedule to me.

Or is it about KDE4? AFAIK, there isn't even a complete road map to version 4 
yet. No complete schedule means it can not be behind schedule. KDE's 
libraries have been ported to Qt4. Some apps are ported to the new libraries. 
Others will follow. A second developer snapshot was released in November. All 
the new technologies like Plasma, Solid, Decibel, Phonon and what not are on 
their way. So?

Even if KDE were behind, how does that kill the Linux desktop? We just had to 
wait a wee bit longer before we could get our hands on those new 
technologies. KDE4 will happen in 2007, probably in its first half. Does it 
really matter whether it is released in March of June? Or even in September? 
I don't get it.

Uwe

-- 
A fast and easy generator of fractals for KDE:
http://www.SysEx.com.na/iwy-1.0.tar.bz2
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Re: [gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?

[Justin Findlay]

On AD 2006 December 21 Thursday 10:35:47 AM +0200, Uwe Thiem wrote:
> Or is it about KDE4?

KDE is the most advanced desktop I've used (that doesn't include vista's
'new' desktop).  The desktop that ships with OSX may come close to KDE
for features but it is styled to the point of annoyance both because the
UI and because the theme is inextricably welded onto the distro just
like windows.  Each major release of KDE3 has introduced many amazing
new features and all of that happened in the last 4 years, and KDE4
promises to be even more amazing, who cares what their schedule is.

The one great blight of KDE also happens to be related to its strengths
and that is that kcontrol is the most nested widget-laden application in
the history of the world.  I've actually spent hours scouring for the
one elusive checkbox only to find it days later after I had long given
up.  For simplicity of UI gconf-editor is much nicer even though it's
not the 'official' way to edit gconf-keys.


Justin
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Re: [gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?

[Uwe Thiem]

On 23 December 2006 00:42, Justin Findlay wrote:

> Each major release of KDE3 has introduced many amazing
> new features and all of that happened in the last 4 years, 

Well, KDE turned 10 this year. ;-)

> The one great blight of KDE also happens to be related to its strengths
> and that is that kcontrol is the most nested widget-laden application in
> the history of the world.  I've actually spent hours scouring for the
> one elusive checkbox only to find it days later after I had long given
> up.  For simplicity of UI gconf-editor is much nicer even though it's
> not the 'official' way to edit gconf-keys.

The control centre has been problematic since its invention. Its complexity 
reflects a real dilemma. How to present literally thousands of options? Sane 
defaults are fine - still, power users want to tweak everything, and they 
should be able to. I hope the HCI people that have got involved in KDE a 
while back will be able to influence the overhaul of it in KDE4 to an extent 
that it no longer intimidates people.

That said, you should have seen it in the begin. It has become much better 
over the years.

Uwe

-- 
A fast and easy generator of fractals for KDE:
http://www.SysEx.com.na/iwy-1.0.tar.bz2
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RE: [gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?

[Nelson, David (ED, PAR&D)]

Hi folks,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Uwe Thiem [mailto:uwix@iway.na]
> Sent: 23 December 2006 07:57
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?
>

-- snip --

> The control centre has been problematic since its invention. 
> Its complexity 
> reflects a real dilemma. How to present literally thousands 
> of options? Sane 
> defaults are fine - still, power users want to tweak 
> everything, and they 
> should be able to. I hope the HCI people that have got 
> involved in KDE a 
> while back will be able to influence the overhaul of it in 
> KDE4 to an extent 
> that it no longer intimidates people.
> 
> That said, you should have seen it in the begin. It has 
> become much better 
> over the years.
> 
> Uwe
 -- snip --


I like the approach taken by the Azureus application - you can choose to see "beginner", "intermediate" or "advanced" options.

Perhaps having a section for the basic options (like what theme you want, what you want your windows to do when you double click the top bar etc) and have the advanced options like fine tuned tweaking kept seperate?

Alternatively some form of documentation to show where options are might be useful. eg:

Q. I want to blah blah
A. Look in the foo section, click on the blurp tab and select option zonk.

David

Note: These views are my own, advice is provided with no guarantee of success. I do not represent anyone else in any emails I send to this list.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 02:32:15 +0000, Jeff Rollin wrote:

>  Their argument seemed to be that
> because GNOME is running into problems and because KDE is behind
> schedule, the Linux desktop is dead.

STOP PRESS: KDE 4 is behind schedule and KDE 3.5 stops working as a
result!

Although how a project without a schedule can be behind it beats me.
 

-- 
Neil Bothwick

Windows 98, the most installed system in the world, I know, I've done it
5 or 6 times myself.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?

[Jerry McBride]

On Wednesday 20 December 2006 21:32, Jeff Rollin wrote:
> Hi all
>
> A discussion on the staff blogs over at OSNews about the Linux desktop
> got me thinking. Thom and Eugenia seem to think that "the linux
> desktop peaked in 2001-2004", but I don't remember the hype around
> Ubuntu starting till well after that. Their argument seemed to be that
> because GNOME is running into problems and because KDE is behind
> schedule, the Linux desktop is dead.
>
> How true is this?
>

PURE Microsoft FUD... "They" are pulling out all the stops now, trying to 
block the advancement of Linux in any areas they can. The fact is, they are 
loosing big time, big money.

Do a simple google safari for "ie 7" and "windows vista" and read the posts 
from ordinary windows users (not the professional microsoft shills)... 
There's so much discontentment "out  there"  with microsoft products that 
Microsoft will never be able to quell it. 

It's a literal "Linux Breeding Ground" and Linux could fill their needs.

If "you guys and gals" want to do some serious Linux advocating, start lending 
as much help as you can on the micosoft support usenet forums. Help as much 
as you can. If you are successful, then perhaps you've made a friend. If you 
fail at fixing their windows toys, offer them a free copy of linux... You may 
make a friend for life.

As example, I offer:

I just spent two hours on the phone, helping a guy with his brand new Dell 
desktop. It worked great a couple of days ago, today IE7 says is..."cannot 
display webage". All webpages...dead. Turned out he "somehow" turned on the 
windows firewall AND a third party firewall. Un-installing the second 
firewall got him backup and in business. I helped him configure the windows 
firewall as best as I could and recommend a few places to google for more 
information on firewall setups. Yeah, I helped fix a windows box... It took 2 
hours... The guy was a total nubie... However, at the end of the session, he 
did take me up on my recommendation of using FireFox for general browsing and  
IE7 for those sites that absolutely have to have it. He also took me up on my 
offer of a free copy of a Live Linux DVD. 

There's a gold mine of new linux users/converts out there. They just have to 
be told that there really is CHOICE amongst OS's, browsers, etc...

--

Jerry McBride
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Re: [gentoo-user] Has Linux "jumped the Shark"?

[Dale]

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Jerry McBride wrote:
>
> PURE Microsoft FUD... "They" are pulling out all the stops now, trying to 
> block the advancement of Linux in any areas they can. The fact is, they are 
> loosing big time, big money.
>
> Do a simple google safari for "ie 7" and "windows vista" and read the posts 
> from ordinary windows users (not the professional microsoft shills)... 
> There's so much discontentment "out  there"  with microsoft products that 
> Microsoft will never be able to quell it. 
>
> It's a literal "Linux Breeding Ground" and Linux could fill their needs.
>
> If "you guys and gals" want to do some serious Linux advocating, start lending 
> as much help as you can on the micosoft support usenet forums. Help as much 
> as you can. If you are successful, then perhaps you've made a friend. If you 
> fail at fixing their windows toys, offer them a free copy of linux... You may 
> make a friend for life.
>
> As example, I offer:
>
> I just spent two hours on the phone, helping a guy with his brand new Dell 
> desktop. It worked great a couple of days ago, today IE7 says is..."cannot 
> display webage". All webpages...dead. Turned out he "somehow" turned on the 
> windows firewall AND a third party firewall. Un-installing the second 
> firewall got him backup and in business. I helped him configure the windows 
> firewall as best as I could and recommend a few places to google for more 
> information on firewall setups. Yeah, I helped fix a windows box... It took 2 
> hours... The guy was a total nubie... However, at the end of the session, he 
> did take me up on my recommendation of using FireFox for general browsing and  
> IE7 for those sites that absolutely have to have it. He also took me up on my 
> offer of a free copy of a Live Linux DVD. 
>
> There's a gold mine of new linux users/converts out there. They just have to 
> be told that there really is CHOICE amongst OS's, browsers, etc...
>
> --
>
> Jerry McBride
>   

My Brother who knows nothing about puters uses windoze XP.  The first
thing I did was install Mozilla.  I recently upgraded to Seamonkey
though.  He runs Norton on it and as far as I know he has only had one
or two infections.  Here are the rules I made for him.  If you get a
email with a attachment, send it to me first to look at.  NEVER OPEN
ANYTHING unless it is from me.  NEVER install nothing if a window pops
up, NEVER.  Update the OS regularly.  I usually get a alert and call him
to run the updater.  Keep Norton up to date.  If it expires, keep the
system offline until it is updated.

He has been really lucky.  I thank Seamonkey for a lot of that but those
rules up there help too.  I have seriously thought of putting Linux on
that thing.  Something like Mandriva or something.  He wouldn't care.

I also have a neighbor that stays broke.  I sort of put a system
together for him, monitor and all.  I put Linux on it too.  He loves
it.  It has a ton of card games that he had to buy for windoze and they
were always crashing or locking up windoze on him.

Linux may not be for everyone but there are a lot of people out there
that can use Linux and never really know the difference.  Let's educate
these poor souls and get them off the monopoly drug.

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-)

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