[gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Grant]

I've caught a whiff or two lately that Gentoo is declining in
popularity amongst users and developers.  Is it all in my head?  I
personally still love Gentoo.

- Grant
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Mrugesh Karnik]

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On Monday 18 December 2006 20:17, Grant wrote:
> I
> personally still love Gentoo.

What's the problem then? :)

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Grant]

> > I
> > personally still love Gentoo.
>
> What's the problem then? :)

bugs.gentoo.org :)

Do you think Gentoo is waning?  Is Debian the only similar distro out there?

- Grant
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Monday 18 December 2006 15:47, Grant wrote:
> I've caught a whiff or two lately that Gentoo is declining in
> popularity amongst users and developers.  Is it all in my head?  I
> personally still love Gentoo.

Once again I'll refer to the blog [1] of kloeri, Lead of the Gentoo Developer 
Relations project (devrel) and a member of the Gentoo Council.

Also [2] clearly shows that Gentoo is quite active in terms of daily 
commits...

On Monday 18 December 2006 17:36, Grant wrote:
> > > I personally still love Gentoo.
> >
> > What's the problem then? :)
>
> bugs.gentoo.org :)

Pfft. bugs.gentoo.org will be replaced by what is now bugstest.gentoo.org 
hopefully in the following weekend. Surely before the end of this year.. I 
could dig out a number of references to back that up but I won't bother given 
how you haven't backed up any part of your claims in this thread...

> Do you think Gentoo is waning?

Just because a project isn't moving as fast or as focused as some people might 
want it to doesn't mean it's declining!

> Is Debian the only similar distro out there?

I would say that it is a lot easier to list the similarities than the 
differences between Debian and Gentoo. Debian really isn't that similar...

[1] http://kloeri.livejournal.com/2006/06/17/
[2] http://cia.navi.cx/

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Grant]

> > I've caught a whiff or two lately that Gentoo is declining in
> > popularity amongst users and developers.  Is it all in my head?  I
> > personally still love Gentoo.
>
> Once again I'll refer to the blog [1] of kloeri, Lead of the Gentoo Developer
> Relations project (devrel) and a member of the Gentoo Council.
>
> Also [2] clearly shows that Gentoo is quite active in terms of daily
> commits...

Very good to see that.

> > > > I personally still love Gentoo.
> > >
> > > What's the problem then? :)
> >
> > bugs.gentoo.org :)
>
> Pfft. bugs.gentoo.org will be replaced by what is now bugstest.gentoo.org
> hopefully in the following weekend. Surely before the end of this year.. I
> could dig out a number of references to back that up but I won't bother given
> how you haven't backed up any part of your claims in this thread...

What claims?

> > Do you think Gentoo is waning?
>
> Just because a project isn't moving as fast or as focused as some people might
> want it to doesn't mean it's declining!

It means the rate of growth is declining.

> > Is Debian the only similar distro out there?
>
> I would say that it is a lot easier to list the similarities than the
> differences between Debian and Gentoo. Debian really isn't that similar...
>
> [1] http://kloeri.livejournal.com/2006/06/17/
> [2] http://cia.navi.cx/

- Grant
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Richard Broersma Jr]

> On Monday 18 December 2006 20:17, Grant wrote:
> > I
> > personally still love Gentoo.
> 
> What's the problem then? :)

Another question would be, how many of us have made healthy progress in our general knowledge of
Linux all thanks to the gentoo user guides/howto(s) and the time spent installing gentoo on our
servers?

I really benefited from the "cookbook" approach that the user manual takes.  It gently opened my
eyes to many lower level processes that were always shielded from my eyes on many other distro's
that I have used.  For this reason Gentoo will always hold a special place in my heart. :o)

However, I believe that gentoo's health is completely dependent on the number of talented
developers that devote much of their personal time refining and debugging portage and it vast
software tree.  IMHO, if we would like to see Gentoo maintain healthy growth, more of us happy
<less experienced> users should find ways to assisting the core developers by relieving them from
the more mundane & redementry tasks.  I am sure that the portage tree is already large enough that
it is a daunting challenge for the limited number of developers to maintain it and keep it upto
date with new software releases.

Next time we see a call for assistance in the weekly news letter, we would do well to spend a few
hours each week answering that call.

Well that's my two cents anyway.

Regards,

Richard Broersma Jr.
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gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Danyelle Gragsone]

I just stepped back into gentoo after a long too long jump to ubuntu.
I had no time to do all the tinkering of things that is required in
gentoo sometimes.  My ability to do things deminished greatly!.  I am
back in the gentoo seat to remember long lost skills.  I totally did
not like the livecd install.  I went back to the universal install
cd's and all is well.  I am a qa'r so you know what my next test will
be ;).  I think like many distro's people tend to flock to new or new
to them distros to see what its like. Gentoo is one of the distros I
learned the most with as with I am sure many of its other users.
Gentoo still by far ( to me ) has the best documentation and user help
out!

LOVE LIVE GENTOO!

On 12/18/06, Richard Broersma Jr <rabroersma@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Monday 18 December 2006 20:17, Grant wrote:
> > > I
> > > personally still love Gentoo.
> >
> > What's the problem then? :)
>
> Another question would be, how many of us have made healthy progress in our general knowledge of
> Linux all thanks to the gentoo user guides/howto(s) and the time spent installing gentoo on our
> servers?
>
> I really benefited from the "cookbook" approach that the user manual takes.  It gently opened my
> eyes to many lower level processes that were always shielded from my eyes on many other distro's
> that I have used.  For this reason Gentoo will always hold a special place in my heart. :o)
>
> However, I believe that gentoo's health is completely dependent on the number of talented
> developers that devote much of their personal time refining and debugging portage and it vast
> software tree.  IMHO, if we would like to see Gentoo maintain healthy growth, more of us happy
> <less experienced> users should find ways to assisting the core developers by relieving them from
> the more mundane & redementry tasks.  I am sure that the portage tree is already large enough that
> it is a daunting challenge for the limited number of developers to maintain it and keep it upto
> date with new software releases.
>
> Next time we see a call for assistance in the weekly news letter, we would do well to spend a few
> hours each week answering that call.
>
> Well that's my two cents anyway.
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Broersma Jr.
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Monday 18 December 2006 19:17, Danyelle Gragsone wrote:
> I just stepped back into gentoo after a long too long jump to ubuntu.
> I had no time to do all the tinkering of things that is required in
> gentoo sometimes.  My ability to do things deminished greatly!.  I am
> back in the gentoo seat to remember long lost skills.  I totally did
> not like the livecd install.  I went back to the universal install
> cd's and all is well.  I am a qa'r so you know what my next test will
> be ;).  I think like many distro's people tend to flock to new or new
> to them distros to see what its like. Gentoo is one of the distros I
> learned the most with as with I am sure many of its other users.
> Gentoo still by far ( to me ) has the best documentation and user
> help out!
>
> LOVE LIVE GENTOO!

There will always be a current flavour-of-the-moment distro.

A few years ago it was Red Hat 9, then Debian had a turn, then Gentoo 
hit the headlines. A large part of the hype was ricers who thought that 
having gcc unroll every loop would somehow give spectacular performance 
increases. They were wrong and - thank god - most of them have left, 
leaving us sane folks behind.

The current flavour seems to be Ubuntu, but that is waning too. They hit 
a few major teething problems with edgy and feisty like livecds that 
didn't work right and binary drivers. Who knows what will be next to be 
popular - Slackware? Debian?

These things go up and down, and with a group as large and diverse as a 
distro, you get growing pains and procedures/personnel/cultures 
changes. But gentoo will always be here and I recommend you not to read 
too much into the daily ups and downs. Besides, like another poster 
said, if gentoo is your favourite distro and the maintainers need a 
hand, what's stopping any of us from becoming devs ourselves?

alan


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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Grant]

> > I just stepped back into gentoo after a long too long jump to ubuntu.
> > I had no time to do all the tinkering of things that is required in
> > gentoo sometimes. My ability to do things deminished greatly!. I am
> > back in the gentoo seat to remember long lost skills. I totally did
> > not like the livecd install. I went back to the universal install
> > cd's and all is well. I am a qa'r so you know what my next test will
> > be ;). I think like many distro's people tend to flock to new or new
> > to them distros to see what its like. Gentoo is one of the distros I
> > learned the most with as with I am sure many of its other users.
> > Gentoo still by far ( to me ) has the best documentation and user
> > help out!
> >
> > LOVE LIVE GENTOO!
>
> There will always be a current flavour-of-the-moment distro.
>
> A few years ago it was Red Hat 9, then Debian had a turn, then Gentoo
> hit the headlines. A large part of the hype was ricers who thought that
> having gcc unroll every loop would somehow give spectacular performance
> increases. They were wrong and - thank god - most of them have left,
> leaving us sane folks behind.
>
> The current flavour seems to be Ubuntu, but that is waning too. They hit
> a few major teething problems with edgy and feisty like livecds that
> didn't work right and binary drivers. Who knows what will be next to be
> popular - Slackware? Debian?
>
> These things go up and down, and with a group as large and diverse as a
> distro, you get growing pains and procedures/personnel/cultures
> changes. But gentoo will always be here and I recommend you not to read
> too much into the daily ups and downs. Besides, like another poster
> said, if gentoo is your favourite distro and the maintainers need a
> hand, what's stopping any of us from becoming devs ourselves?

Thanks for everyone's input thus far.  I've been meaning to build and
maintain an ebuild for interchange (icdevgroup.org) for a while now.
I've never built an ebuild before, my programming skills are limited,
and at least two other developers have attempted and given up on an
interchange ebuild, but I'm making that my New Year's resolution.

Gentoo literally can't die without something better to replace it.

- Grant
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Iain Buchanan]

On Mon, 2006-12-18 at 10:35 -0800, Grant wrote:

> Gentoo literally can't die without something better to replace it.

the only thing to replace Gentoo, will be a better Gentoo :)

-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

  We must believe in free will. We have no choice. -Isaac B. Singer

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Monday 18 December 2006 20:35, Grant wrote:
> Thanks for everyone's input thus far.  I've been meaning to build and
> maintain an ebuild for interchange (icdevgroup.org) for a while now.
> I've never built an ebuild before, my programming skills are limited,
> and at least two other developers have attempted and given up on an
> interchange ebuild, but I'm making that my New Year's resolution.

It's easy enough, all the info you need is in man 5 ebuild. The only 
problem areas that really get you stuck in me experience are trying to 
cope with binary-only proprietary packages that do silly things like 
use Java installers

> Gentoo literally can't die without something better to replace it.

Why do you keep making this odd assertion that gentoo 
will/may/might/looks like/appears to be dying? 

Nothing could be further from the truth. You don't need to replace 
gentoo with anything because even if the entire project and ever single 
dev died in one huge humongous bus accident, all the gentoo code and 
repos are still there. So, in such an event, simply host everything 
somewhere else on the internet

alan

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Iain Buchanan]

On Mon, 2006-12-18 at 19:49 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> There will always be a current flavour-of-the-moment distro.
> 
> A few years ago it was Red Hat 9, then Debian had a turn, then Gentoo 
> hit the headlines. A large part of the hype was ricers who thought that 
> having gcc unroll every loop would somehow give spectacular performance 
> increases. They were wrong and - thank god - most of them have left, 
> leaving us sane folks behind.

who are you calling sane?  oh.. that was a compliment ;)

-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

When in doubt, mumble; when in trouble, delegate; when in charge, ponder.
		-- James H. Boren

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Grant]

> > I
> > personally still love Gentoo.
>
> What's the problem then? :)

Can we agree that active developers are good for Gentoo, and the more
the better?

I think other posters to this thread may be trying to compile a
similar set of statistics, but I'll just come out and say it.  Can we
compare historical data on the number of Gentoo users and the rate of
Gentoo maintenance and growth?  Conceptually, I would think a 2-axis
chart along with three plot-lines would be appropriate.  Which data
points should be plotted?  We need something to represent users,
maintenance, and growth.

- Grant
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Colleen Beamer]

Grant wrote:
>> > I
>> > personally still love Gentoo.
>>
Well, I don't know anything ... I'm just a lowly user, not a tech ....
I'd never compiled a kernel before using Gentoo or wrote a configuration
file.

However, I have to say that, for me, Gentoo is hands down the easiest
distro to maintain.  It has the best documentation, this list is the
most helpful of any that I've been on.  So, my hat goes off to the
developers, documentation writers and the people that support Gentoo
.... may they live long, happy and health lives.  I, for one, would be
devastated without Gentoo!

Seasons Greetings, to all!

Colleen Beamer

-- 

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Dale]

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Colleen Beamer wrote:
> Grant wrote:
>   
>>>> I
>>>> personally still love Gentoo.
>>>>         
> Well, I don't know anything ... I'm just a lowly user, not a tech ....
> I'd never compiled a kernel before using Gentoo or wrote a configuration
> file.
>
> However, I have to say that, for me, Gentoo is hands down the easiest
> distro to maintain.  It has the best documentation, this list is the
> most helpful of any that I've been on.  So, my hat goes off to the
> developers, documentation writers and the people that support Gentoo
> .... may they live long, happy and health lives.  I, for one, would be
> devastated without Gentoo!
>
> Seasons Greetings, to all!
>
> Colleen Beamer
>
>   

Here here, ditto and all that stuff.  You my twin maybe?

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-)

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Andrey Gerasimenko]

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 05:23:25 +0300, Colleen Beamer  
<colleen.beamer@gmail.com> wrote:

> ....
>  I, for one, would be devastated without Gentoo!
> ....

I looked deep into myself and found that possibly it is fear that drives  
this thread. Am I not the only one with the impresion that for the last 10  
years or so good things in computing are routinely fading out or being  
eaten by mediocre, if not plain stupid, "alternatives"?

This makes me think about another side of the problem. As stated by the  
official site, <<"Gentoo" is many things. It is a community-based  
distribution of Linux. It is a package management philosophy. It is also a  
non-profit organization.>>

Is the non-profit organization side of Gentoo healthy? My brief Google  
session does not reveal anything that suggests it is not, but if somebody  
can and may comment on this, please do so.

-- 
Andrei Gerasimenko
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Jeff Rollin]

On 20/12/06, Andrey Gerasimenko <gak@kaluga.ru> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 05:23:25 +0300, Colleen Beamer
> <colleen.beamer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ....
> >  I, for one, would be devastated without Gentoo!
> > ....
>
> I looked deep into myself and found that possibly it is fear that drives
> this thread. Am I not the only one with the impresion that for the last 10
> years or so good things in computing are routinely fading out or being
> eaten by mediocre, if not plain stupid, "alternatives"?
>
Your timing is off. 20-10 years ago the Redmond juggernaut was
ascending to omnipotence. During the last ten years "good things in
computing" have been steadily encroaching on the
Redmond/Windows/Office "stupid" monopoly.

Jeff.


-- 
Now, did you hear the news today?
They say the danger's gone away
But I can hear the marching feet
Moving into the street

Adapted from Genesis, "Land of Confusion"

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bryan Østergaard]

On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 12:16:04PM +0300, Andrey Gerasimenko wrote:
> Is the non-profit organization side of Gentoo healthy? My brief Google  
> session does not reveal anything that suggests it is not, but if somebody  
> can and may comment on this, please do so.
What do you mean by healthy? There's a number of important issues the
Trustees have to work out but we're getting lots (for some value of
lots) of donations, improving conference attendance etc.

The non-profit organisation haven't existed very long so there's
obviously going to be a number of issues still to be worked out but all
in all I think it's getting better. But if you'd be so kind as to define
what you mean by healthy I'm sure I could help with more insights.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Grant]

> > Is the non-profit organization side of Gentoo healthy? My brief Google
> > session does not reveal anything that suggests it is not, but if somebody
> > can and may comment on this, please do so.
> What do you mean by healthy? There's a number of important issues the
> Trustees have to work out but we're getting lots (for some value of
> lots) of donations, improving conference attendance etc.
>
> The non-profit organisation haven't existed very long so there's
> obviously going to be a number of issues still to be worked out but all
> in all I think it's getting better. But if you'd be so kind as to define
> what you mean by healthy I'm sure I could help with more insights.

Well I'll give up on my number of users vs. active development study
unless anyone else is interested.  I seem to be the only one.  Seems
like the right thing to do.

- Grant
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Andrey Gerasimenko]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 02:03:26 +0300, Bryan Østergaard <kloeri@gentoo.org>  
wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 12:16:04PM +0300, Andrey Gerasimenko wrote:
>> Is the non-profit organization side of Gentoo healthy? My brief Google
>> session does not reveal anything that suggests it is not, but if  
>> somebody
>> can and may comment on this, please do so.
> What do you mean by healthy? There's a number of important issues the
> Trustees have to work out but we're getting lots (for some value of
> lots) of donations, improving conference attendance etc.
>
> The non-profit organisation haven't existed very long so there's
> obviously going to be a number of issues still to be worked out but all
> in all I think it's getting better. But if you'd be so kind as to define
> what you mean by healthy I'm sure I could help with more insights.
>

Your post is actually the answer. If insiders feel it is healthy, then it  
most likely is healthy.

As for my definition of healthy, it is simple: a healthy organization is  
not likely to quit its activities, mainly due to financial problems, in  
the next 10 years. If the "likely" is to be defined, then a healthy  
organization has less chances to quit in the next 10 years than 70% of all  
the same domain organizations that exist today.

As for the next question, I am not sure that it is worth answering it,  
possibly there is a better way to use your time, but you may still find it  
interesting to know what a common user may be thinking about.

Are there any plans to make a business from Gentoo, any time in the  
future? Are there people who work on Gentoo full time? Does the profit  
 from the Gentoo Store cover some visible part of the Gentoo expenses?

As you can see, the questions are provoked by the news I heard about  
Ubuntu, Debian, and Mandriva.

-- 
Andrei Gerasimenko
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bryan Østergaard]

On Thu, Dec 21, 2006 at 12:00:28PM +0300, Andrey Gerasimenko wrote:
> As for my definition of healthy, it is simple: a healthy organization is  
> not likely to quit its activities, mainly due to financial problems, in  
> the next 10 years. If the "likely" is to be defined, then a healthy  
> organization has less chances to quit in the next 10 years than 70% of all  
> the same domain organizations that exist today.
Oh wow, 10 years is a really long time in the world of community driven
open source projects. I don't think anybody will ever be able to answer
that question. That said, Gentoo definitely isn't driven by finances -
what drives Gentoo is a great community and a bunch of developers
working their butts off on a distribution they love and care about.
> 
> As for the next question, I am not sure that it is worth answering it,  
> possibly there is a better way to use your time, but you may still find it  
> interesting to know what a common user may be thinking about.
> 
> Are there any plans to make a business from Gentoo, any time in the  
> future? Are there people who work on Gentoo full time? Does the profit  
> from the Gentoo Store cover some visible part of the Gentoo expenses?
Gentoo have no plans of making a business from our work. We've sorta
tried that in the past with Gentoo Games but the developers really
wanted a non-profit organisation.

As for what the money from the Gentoo store and donations etc. is used
for, that is controlled by the Trustees. I believe there's work being
done to establish "event kits" so we'd have everything needed for
conferences readibly available. There's also money spend on
infrastructure things (domain renewals, assorted hardware etc). And
while on this topic I should really thank all our great sponsors
providing bandwidth, mirrors, servers, development boxes and so on.

As far as I know there's no developers that's paid to work on Gentoo as
their primary job. I believe there's a few developers who have some paid
time to work on open source projects (like Gentoo) though as part of
their contracts.
> 
> As you can see, the questions are provoked by the news I heard about  
> Ubuntu, Debian, and Mandriva.
> 
Hope this answered most of your questions.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Uwe Thiem]

On 20 December 2006 03:58, Grant wrote:

> I think other posters to this thread may be trying to compile a
> similar set of statistics, but I'll just come out and say it.  Can we
> compare historical data on the number of Gentoo users and the rate of
> Gentoo maintenance and growth?  Conceptually, I would think a 2-axis
> chart along with three plot-lines would be appropriate.  Which data
> points should be plotted?  We need something to represent users,
> maintenance, and growth.

As others have said, it is next to impossible to determine the number of users 
to any degree of accuracy. Commercial distros can at least tell how many sets 
of CDs/DVDs they sell, although that doesn't give them the exact number of 
users either. It is even more difficult for distros like Gentoo where 
everyone can download the stuff.

The Polytechnic of Namibia maintains an unofficial Gentoo mirror. So everyone 
around here that can access their network uses their mirror. Those downloads 
are invisible for Gentoo. I maintain one portage tree and install all my 
customers' boxes from it. These installations are even less visible to 
Gentoo.

I can't think of any method to get real numbers.

Uwe

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:18:41 +0200, Uwe Thiem wrote:

> I can't think of any method to get real numbers.

Add sys-apps/gentoo-phonehome to all system profiles :)

Or do what Ubuntu did and default all installs to use their time server,
they can get a good estimate of the number of users from the time server
logs.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Just when my ship comes in, it's the Kobyashi Maru.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Uwe Thiem]

On 20 December 2006 11:43, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:18:41 +0200, Uwe Thiem wrote:
> > I can't think of any method to get real numbers.
>
> Add sys-apps/gentoo-phonehome to all system profiles :)

;-)

>
> Or do what Ubuntu did and default all installs to use their time server,
> they can get a good estimate of the number of users from the time server
> logs.

Well, wouldn't work at least here. All my installs at customers point to a 
nearby timeserver. ;-)

Uwe

-- 
A fast and easy generator of fractals for KDE:
http://www.SysEx.com.na/iwy-1.0.tar.bz2
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

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On Wednesday 20 December 2006 04:46, Uwe Thiem <uwix@iway.na> wrote 
about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?':
> On 20 December 2006 11:43, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > Or do what Ubuntu did and default all installs to use their time
> > server, they can get a good estimate of the number of users from the
> > time server logs.
>
> Well, wouldn't work at least here. All my installs at customers point to
> a nearby timeserver. ;-)

Same here; I configure my ntp clients to know the servers on the LAN, and 
all the ones along the traceroute to ntp.<adslprovider>.net and 
ntp.<cableprovider>.net as well as one from the US pool.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

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On Wednesday 20 December 2006 03:43, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> 
wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?':
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:18:41 +0200, Uwe Thiem wrote:
> > I can't think of any method to get real numbers.
>
> Add sys-apps/gentoo-phonehome to all system profiles :)

Damn you.  I actually searched for that package. :P

As long as it is voluntary, I generally install programs that allows me to 
report my hardware and software configuration so my distributor knows how 
to focus its resources.  Is Gentoo interested in this information?  Is 
there a relevant package?

> Or do what Ubuntu did and default all installs to use their time server,
> they can get a good estimate of the number of users from the time server
> logs.

I'm fairly sure the popularity-contest package is part of a standard 
(K)Ubuntu install.  (It regularly reports the packages you have installed; 
It's not required.)  That's probably more accurate that time server logs, 
since I believe the Canonical time server are also part of the pool 
rotation.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 20 December 2006 12:11, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> > > I can't think of any method to get real numbers.
> >
> > Add sys-apps/gentoo-phonehome to all system profiles :)
>
> Damn you.  I actually searched for that package. :P
>
> As long as it is voluntary, I generally install programs that allows me to
> report my hardware and software configuration so my distributor knows how
> to focus its resources.  Is Gentoo interested in this information?  Is
> there a relevant package?

There is sys-apps/list. Also I think genone is still occasionally working on 
the otherwise hibernating gentoo stats project... ;)

http://planet.gentoo.org/developers/genone/2006/07/15/gentoo_stats_status
http://planet.gentoo.org/developers/genone/2006/07/22/gentoo_stats_test_request_1
http://overlays.gentoo.org/proj/portage/browser/app-portage/gentoo-stats

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 05:11:13 -0600, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:

> > Add sys-apps/gentoo-phonehome to all system profiles :)  
> 
> Damn you.  I actually searched for that package. :P

LOL!

> As long as it is voluntary, I generally install programs that allows me
> to report my hardware and software configuration so my distributor
> knows how to focus its resources.  Is Gentoo interested in this
> information?  Is there a relevant package?

There used to be such a package, but I think it was dropped some time
ago.

> > Or do what Ubuntu did and default all installs to use their time
> > server, they can get a good estimate of the number of users from the
> > time server logs.  
> 
> I'm fairly sure the popularity-contest package is part of a standard 
> (K)Ubuntu install.  (It regularly reports the packages you have
> installed; It's not required.)  That's probably more accurate that time
> server logs, since I believe the Canonical time server are also part of
> the pool rotation.

AFAIK the Ubuntu installation defaults (or at least it did) to using only
their time servers. Every time someone booted up a Ubuntu machine in the
morning, they knew about it. It means they were counting machines using
Ubuntu as opposed to those with it installed, so they'd also have an idea
of how many people installed it and then stopped using it.

Of course, that would only work with a distro like Ubuntu that is aimed
at people wanting something that "just works" and don't fiddle with
default system settings.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

What do you get if you cross an agnostic, an insomniac and adyslexic?
Someone who lies awake at night wondering if there really is a dog.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Steve Dibb]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:18:41 +0200, Uwe Thiem wrote:
>
>   
>> I can't think of any method to get real numbers.
>>     
>
> Add sys-apps/gentoo-phonehome to all system profiles :)
There's actually a gentoo-stats project in the works, for those that 
would like to (voluntarily) let us know what systems Gentoo is being 
used on.

Steve
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Dale]

Steve Dibb wrote:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:18:41 +0200, Uwe Thiem wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> I can't think of any method to get real numbers.
>>>     
>>
>> Add sys-apps/gentoo-phonehome to all system profiles :)
> There's actually a gentoo-stats project in the works, for those that
> would like to (voluntarily) let us know what systems Gentoo is being
> used on.
>
> Steve

I'd let them in on my use.  Where is this page?  OR are they doing it
another way?

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-)
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 12:18:23 -0700, Steve Dibb wrote:

> > Add sys-apps/gentoo-phonehome to all system profiles :)  

> There's actually a gentoo-stats project in the works, for those that 
> would like to (voluntarily) let us know what systems Gentoo is being 
> used on.

Wasn't there a similar project a few years ago?

I'm happy to share such information; after all, I use cookies so I've got
no secrets ;-)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Thursday 21 December 2006 09:54, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 12:18:23 -0700, Steve Dibb wrote:
> > > Add sys-apps/gentoo-phonehome to all system profiles :)
> >
> > There's actually a gentoo-stats project in the works, for those that
> > would like to (voluntarily) let us know what systems Gentoo is being
> > used on.
>
> Wasn't there a similar project a few years ago?
>
> I'm happy to share such information; after all, I use cookies so I've got
> no secrets ;-)

I'm starting to wonder if you missed this mail on the subject:

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/175964/focus=176095

Also there seem to be some results from it at:

http://stats.soc.gentoo.org/

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 02:10:58 +0100, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:

> I'm starting to wonder if you missed this mail on the subject:
> 
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/175964/focus=176095

Possibly, I'm still missing mails from Gentoo lists, although the problem
seems less than previously.

> Also there seem to be some results from it at:
> 
> http://stats.soc.gentoo.org/

Hmm, the most popular packages have been installed on 20 machines, either
this is a very limited sample or the answer to $SUBJECT is NO :(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WinErr 00C: Memory hog error - More Ram needed. More! More! More!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Jeff Rollin]

On 22/12/06, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 02:10:58 +0100, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
>
> > I'm starting to wonder if you missed this mail on the subject:
> >
> > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/175964/focus=176095
>
> Possibly, I'm still missing mails from Gentoo lists, although the problem
> seems less than previously.
>
Sorry if this is too obvious, but have you checked what your spam
filter's doing lately?

Jeff.

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gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Friday 22 December 2006 11:40, Jeff Rollin wrote:
> On 22/12/06, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 02:10:58 +0100, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
> > > I'm starting to wonder if you missed this mail on the subject:
> > >
> > > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/175964/focus=176095
> >
> > Possibly, I'm still missing mails from Gentoo lists, although the problem
> > seems less than previously.
>
> Sorry if this is too obvious, but have you checked what your spam
> filter's doing lately?

spam filters have nothing to do with that.

It is a known problem, discussed in its own bug and on gentoo-dev. A lot of 
people (like me), don't get all the mails sent to gentoo-[user,dev,amd64...]. 
For some unknown reasons that mails are dropped and never delivered. And no, 
the spam filters are not part of the problem.

-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Jeff Rollin]

>
> It is a known problem, discussed in its own bug and on gentoo-dev. A lot of
> people (like me), don't get all the mails sent to gentoo-[user,dev,amd64...].
> For some unknown reasons that mails are dropped and never delivered. And no,
> the spam filters are not part of the problem.
>
> --
OK, sorry.

Jeff
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Friday 22 December 2006 12:36, Jeff Rollin wrote:
> > It is a known problem, discussed in its own bug and on gentoo-dev. A lot
> > of people (like me), don't get all the mails sent to
> > gentoo-[user,dev,amd64...]. For some unknown reasons that mails are
> > dropped and never delivered. And no, the spam filters are not part of the
> > problem.
> >
> > --
>
> OK, sorry.

it is ok. Nobody really knows why that happens - and after the latest 
mail-server upgrade the amount of dropped mails was greatly reduced.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:58:50 -0800, Grant wrote:

> Can we agree that active developers are good for Gentoo,

Yes

> and the more the better?

If they are co-operating or working on separate projects, not if they are
competing and flaming.

> I think other posters to this thread may be trying to compile a
> similar set of statistics, but I'll just come out and say it.  Can we
> compare historical data on the number of Gentoo users and the rate of
> Gentoo maintenance and growth? 

Number of users is largely irrelevant, it's not as if Gentoo needs a
number of "customers" to survive, it is a non-profit organisation
producing free products. The latter number is more interesting, and
should be available from places like Gentoo's CVS repositories and the
site Bo mentioned earlier in this thread.

For a rough idea of the rate of development, look at the portage snapshots
on the install CDs over the years and count the packages. Of course, mere
number cannot quantify things like the improvements in the quality of the
software.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Grant]

> > Can we agree that active developers are good for Gentoo,
>
> Yes
>
> > and the more the better?
>
> If they are co-operating or working on separate projects, not if they are
> competing and flaming.
>
> > I think other posters to this thread may be trying to compile a
> > similar set of statistics, but I'll just come out and say it.  Can we
> > compare historical data on the number of Gentoo users and the rate of
> > Gentoo maintenance and growth?
>
> Number of users is largely irrelevant, it's not as if Gentoo needs a
> number of "customers" to survive, it is a non-profit organisation
> producing free products.

That's exactly the argument here, and the point of creating the 3-way
comparison I suggested.  I'm trying to determine if Gentoo does "need
a number of customers to survive", to thrive, or not at all.  If you
are all correct, an increased user base would not benefit Gentoo, but
there is a possibility that it would and has.  That's what I'm trying
to determine.

> The latter number is more interesting, and
> should be available from places like Gentoo's CVS repositories and the
> site Bo mentioned earlier in this thread.
>
> For a rough idea of the rate of development, look at the portage snapshots
> on the install CDs over the years and count the packages. Of course, mere
> number cannot quantify things like the improvements in the quality of the
> software.

It's clear that no one source of data will serve to represent any of
the three desired plot-lines: users, rate of maintenance, and rate of
growth.  In that case, some type of composite score for each is in
order.  Can anyone suggest sources of data for each composite score?
In addition to or in lieu of the composite scores, the individual data
points could be compared to each other for a more fine-grained set of
statistics.

Users
- bouncer.gentoo.org activity
- mailing list activity
- forum activity
- general website activity
- Gentoo Store data

Rate of Maintenance
- ratio of opened bugs to closed bugs
- other bugs.gentoo.org info

Rate of Growth
- CVS repository data
- info from http://cia.navi.cx/
- number of packages in old portage snapshots

Please post additions or modifications to the above list, especially
pertaining to the rate of growth.  A real developer should be able to
better determine the specific data to use in that estimation.

- Grant
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Hans-Werner Hilse]

Hi,

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 06:07:50 -0800 Grant <emailgrant@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Number of users is largely irrelevant, it's not as if Gentoo needs a
> > number of "customers" to survive, it is a non-profit organisation
> > producing free products.
> 
> That's exactly the argument here, and the point of creating the 3-way
> comparison I suggested.  I'm trying to determine if Gentoo does "need
> a number of customers to survive", to thrive, or not at all.  If you
> are all correct, an increased user base would not benefit Gentoo, but
> there is a possibility that it would and has.  That's what I'm trying
> to determine.

But that's not possible to determine, given the accessible data.

I really start getting annoyed by this thread. It surely *is* an
interesting question what impact different
user/developer/bugreporter/ML-helper have on the distro. But it is
important that especially the questions *you* are asking are of merely
sociological nature. I doubt you can prove anything reliably except
maybe that Gentoo is very likely to cease to exists if there are *no*
(read: zero) users left.

All the graphs you can make up with those ratios will always still miss
important points.

- Given that gentoo is more of a meta-distribution, it is highly
dependent on upstream.
- The aforementioned (by others) grey user base (local user groups not
using central Gentoo infrastructure) is high.
- You won't be able to do clear allocations on who's a dev and who's a
user and who's a bugreporter without intersections.
- You'll never be able to determine users' reasons for joining/leaving
gentoo, coincidence with developer-ratios or bug statistics are
likely to be flawed.

For the questions you're posing here, you really need to take a
sociological approach and do carefully crafted interviews with a
certain number of users, devs, bug reporters and so on. Purely
quantitative relations are doomed to be just marketing-blabla, and even
politics in worser cases.


-hwh (happy Gentoo user & bugreporter w/ privately used mirrors and a
Linux developer)
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Monday 18 December 2006 15:47, Grant wrote:
> I've caught a whiff or two lately that Gentoo is declining in
> popularity amongst users and developers.  Is it all in my head?  I
> personally still love Gentoo.

there are always several phases in the life of a distri.

Beginning, when it becomes 'cool' and a sudden surge in users, some time of 
high popularity, a decline, and at the end, only the users who are 
really 'the right ones' for that kind of distri are left.

So the 'always using the cool thing' users are gone and the 'we are using what 
the cool guys were using' crowd is leaving now. So what? Are they important? 
No. At some point ubuntu will suffer the same. And then the next cool distro 
de jour.

Some decline in user interest is normal - and a healthy process. Because it 
removes the 'I use it because it is cool' and 'I use it because everybody 
else uses it' type of users.
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Grant]

> > I've caught a whiff or two lately that Gentoo is declining in
> > popularity amongst users and developers.  Is it all in my head?  I
> > personally still love Gentoo.
>
> there are always several phases in the life of a distri.
>
> Beginning, when it becomes 'cool' and a sudden surge in users, some time of
> high popularity, a decline, and at the end, only the users who are
> really 'the right ones' for that kind of distri are left.
>
> So the 'always using the cool thing' users are gone and the 'we are using what
> the cool guys were using' crowd is leaving now. So what? Are they important?
> No. At some point ubuntu will suffer the same. And then the next cool distro
> de jour.
>
> Some decline in user interest is normal - and a healthy process. Because it
> removes the 'I use it because it is cool' and 'I use it because everybody
> else uses it' type of users.

I'm thinking this over a bit more, and it seems like the best thing
for Gentoo (or any distro) is a lot of users.  More users must mean
more active developers, and more active developers must mean an
increased rate of growth for the software.

I believe the great benefit of Gentoo is its flexibility, and
flexibility is like a meta-benefit because it makes possible any other
benefit.  What do you think makes Ubuntu the distro of the moment?  Is
it ease-of-use?  If Gentoo focused more on ease-of-use aspects of the
Ubuntu variety, they would attract more users and thereby increase the
rate of growth for the software.

Popular migration from one distro to the next sends a very important
signal to any distro that wants to grow.

- Grant
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gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Mrugesh Karnik]

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On Tuesday 19 December 2006 00:24, Grant wrote:
> I'm thinking this over a bit more, and it seems like the best thing
> for Gentoo (or any distro) is a lot of users.  More users must mean
> more active developers, and more active developers must mean an
> increased rate of growth for the software.
>
> I believe the great benefit of Gentoo is its flexibility, and
> flexibility is like a meta-benefit because it makes possible any other
> benefit.  What do you think makes Ubuntu the distro of the moment?  Is
> it ease-of-use?  If Gentoo focused more on ease-of-use aspects of the
> Ubuntu variety, they would attract more users and thereby increase the
> rate of growth for the software.
>
> Popular migration from one distro to the next sends a very important
> signal to any distro that wants to grow.

Methinks, Gentoo should stay focused.

I don't think the goal of Gentoo was to become a Desktop Distro for the people 
migrating from M$ land. I don't care about ease of use. The current situation 
is great for me. I DO want the flexibility and the control.

Quality matters, not the quantity.

I'm not against ease of use. Its always welcome. I guess its up to the devs 
and the Council to decide on what Gentoo wants to be and for whom. Trying to 
cater too many different categories of people is shooting yourself in the 
foot.


-- 
----------------------------------------
Mrugesh Karnik
GPG Key 0xBA6F1DA8
Public key on http://wwwkeys.pgp.net
----------------------------------------

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Andrew Gaydenko]

+1

You have stealed my thoughts!
All I can add, I'd want to Gentoo aim be a better Gentoo :-)


======= On Monday 18 December 2006 22:12, Mrugesh Karnik wrote: =======
...

I don't think the goal of Gentoo was to become a Desktop Distro for the people 
migrating from M$ land. I don't care about ease of use. The current situation 
is great for me. I DO want the flexibility and the control.

Quality matters, not the quantity.

...
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Philip Webb]

061219 Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
> On Tuesday 19 December 2006 00:24, Grant wrote:
>> It seems like the best thing for Gentoo is a lot of users.
>> More users must mean more active developers
>> and an increased rate of growth for the software.
> Methinks, Gentoo should stay focused.
> I don't think the goal of Gentoo was to become a Desktop Distro
> for the people migrating from M$ land. I don't care about ease of use.
> I DO want the flexibility and the control.
> Quality matters, not the quantity.

Gentoo is for fairly experienced Linux users who want real control
& are prepared to put a bit of time into maintaining their box(es).
There will always be people who try it & find it too time-consuming
or are simply not experienced enough to handle its challenges.
There is no other distro which offers anything like what Gentoo offers
& until there is, Gentoo will remain alive & fairly healthy.

BTW 'Distrowatch' has its annual review today
with a rather snide report on Gentoo as no longer being fashionable (grin).

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,  Philip Webb : purslow@chass.utoronto.ca
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|  Centre for Urban & Community Studies
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'  University of Toronto
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Roman Naumann]

> > On Tuesday 19 December 2006 00:24, Grant wrote:
> >> It seems like the best thing for Gentoo is a lot of users.
> >> More users must mean more active developers
> >> and an increased rate of growth for the software.
> >
> > Methinks, Gentoo should stay focused.
> > I don't think the goal of Gentoo was to become a Desktop Distro
> > for the people migrating from M$ land. I don't care about ease of use.
> > I DO want the flexibility and the control.
> > Quality matters, not the quantity.

On Monday 18 December 2006 21:29, Philip Webb wrote:
> Gentoo is for fairly experienced Linux users who want real control
> & are prepared to put a bit of time into maintaining their box(es).
> There will always be people who try it & find it too time-consuming
> or are simply not experienced enough to handle its challenges.

People who're new to Linux, especially naturally unexperienced teens will have 
a rough time if they try gentoo linux. Even if they learn fast.. especially 
the fact that you need a whole day to have a running installation kills 
motivation.
I find Sabayon linux very useful, it offers a complete pre-installation, you 
can modify it afterwards. The perfect os with a rapid beginning. :-)
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Walker]

Roman Naumann wrote:
> I find Sabayon linux very useful, it offers a complete pre-installation, you 
> can modify it afterwards. The perfect os with a rapid beginning. :-)
>   
Sabayon creates such a horribly broken system it takes hours for an 
experienced Gentoo user to sort out a simple "emerge -uavD world". I 
wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Incidentally, Kororaa is just as bad 
and I didn't find VLOS much, if any, better.


Neil



-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 22:07:54 +0100, Roman Naumann wrote:

> People who're new to Linux, especially naturally unexperienced teens
> will have a rough time if they try gentoo linux. Even if they learn
> fast.. especially the fact that you need a whole day to have a running
> installation kills motivation.

A whole day? It hasn't been like that for a long time. I installed this
laptop about 18 months ago, using a stage 3 tarball and a GRP CD. I went
from blank disc to KDE desktop in a little over an hour.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

SCSI: System Can't See It

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Daniel da Veiga]

On 12/18/06, Grant <emailgrant@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I've caught a whiff or two lately that Gentoo is declining in
> > > popularity amongst users and developers.  Is it all in my head?  I
> > > personally still love Gentoo.
> >
> > there are always several phases in the life of a distri.
> >
> > Beginning, when it becomes 'cool' and a sudden surge in users, some time of
> > high popularity, a decline, and at the end, only the users who are
> > really 'the right ones' for that kind of distri are left.
> >
> > So the 'always using the cool thing' users are gone and the 'we are using what
> > the cool guys were using' crowd is leaving now. So what? Are they important?
> > No. At some point ubuntu will suffer the same. And then the next cool distro
> > de jour.
> >
> > Some decline in user interest is normal - and a healthy process. Because it
> > removes the 'I use it because it is cool' and 'I use it because everybody
> > else uses it' type of users.
>
> I'm thinking this over a bit more, and it seems like the best thing
> for Gentoo (or any distro) is a lot of users.  More users must mean
> more active developers, and more active developers must mean an
> increased rate of growth for the software.

Well, I must say not all users really add to the distro in any way...

>
> I believe the great benefit of Gentoo is its flexibility, and
> flexibility is like a meta-benefit because it makes possible any other
> benefit.  What do you think makes Ubuntu the distro of the moment?  Is
> it ease-of-use?  If Gentoo focused more on ease-of-use aspects of the
> Ubuntu variety, they would attract more users and thereby increase the
> rate of growth for the software.

Ubuntu is popular because there were thousands of articles over the
net and magazines making it sound like the "Linux that anyone can
use". It is true for MOST hardware/software combination, but once it
fails (and it will, eventually, every OS does), an unprepared user
would be just lost.

A great number of users grant your distro fame and sponsors, but most
of this users add nothing to the distro. Most don't even participate
in discussions like this one, that's focused on making the distro
better. C'mon, how many developers really watch their users mailing
lists and answer like Gentoo devs do?

I don't think easy-to-use makes a distro better. What makes it better
is a good documentation (and Gentoo has the best) and users willing to
go read a little before crying out that it doesn't work, adding stuff
to the wikis and forums and helping each other. In my sincere opinion,
Gentoo may have less users than other distros, but we have the best
users around ;-)

>
> Popular migration from one distro to the next sends a very important
> signal to any distro that wants to grow.
>

Well, IMHO it doesn't.

-- 
Daniel da Veiga
Computer Operator - RS - Brazil
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCM/IT/P/O d-? s:- a? C++$ UBLA++ P+ L++ E--- W+++$ N o+ K- w O M- V-
PS PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+++ R+* tv b+ DI+++ D+ G+ e h+ r+ y++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Grant]

> > > > I've caught a whiff or two lately that Gentoo is declining in
> > > > popularity amongst users and developers.  Is it all in my head?  I
> > > > personally still love Gentoo.
> > >
> > > there are always several phases in the life of a distri.
> > >
> > > Beginning, when it becomes 'cool' and a sudden surge in users, some time of
> > > high popularity, a decline, and at the end, only the users who are
> > > really 'the right ones' for that kind of distri are left.
> > >
> > > So the 'always using the cool thing' users are gone and the 'we are using what
> > > the cool guys were using' crowd is leaving now. So what? Are they important?
> > > No. At some point ubuntu will suffer the same. And then the next cool distro
> > > de jour.
> > >
> > > Some decline in user interest is normal - and a healthy process. Because it
> > > removes the 'I use it because it is cool' and 'I use it because everybody
> > > else uses it' type of users.
> >
> > I'm thinking this over a bit more, and it seems like the best thing
> > for Gentoo (or any distro) is a lot of users.  More users must mean
> > more active developers, and more active developers must mean an
> > increased rate of growth for the software.
>
> Well, I must say not all users really add to the distro in any way...

Every user does add to the distro because they make it more popular,
and, generally, a more popular distro will have more active developers
than an unpopular distro.  Active developers make the distro.  For
example, I submitted this bug about a mod_perl-2.0.3 version bump on
11-28-06, and there hasn't even been a reply yet:

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157239

One way or another, this is a (big) problem of not enough active
developers.  Gentoo needs more users so it can get more active
developers so we can get a better Gentoo and a continually up-to-date
Gentoo.  We very well may have to adapt to survive.

- Grant
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Brandon Edens]

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On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 11:58:26AM -0800, Grant wrote:

> Every user does add to the distro because they make it more popular,
> and, generally, a more popular distro will have more active developers
> than an unpopular distro.  Active developers make the distro.  For
> example, I submitted this bug about a mod_perl-2.0.3 version bump on
> 11-28-06, and there hasn't even been a reply yet:
> 
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157239
> 
> One way or another, this is a (big) problem of not enough active
> developers.  Gentoo needs more users so it can get more active
> developers so we can get a better Gentoo and a continually up-to-date
> Gentoo.  We very well may have to adapt to survive.

Well if it means anything...

I think we should modify portage to allow for a decentralized distribution. I'd
like to see the "herd" like groupings to be the normal method of operation with
pockets of users informally banding together into their own herds. This of
course would be facilitated by software. If you think about it, most of the
Gentoo infrastructure "ideas" could be replicated in an informal fashion. We'd
always want the cathedral as a reference point but if it was destroyed tomorrow
I'd like things to continue running.

As for your bug, I guess I would have liked to have typed,
$ equery comments mod_perl
and seen information about that bug you posted.

If I knew something about the problem I'd type

$ equery bug mod_perl comment "I'm having this same issue. Issue was solved by \
X. Pushed modified ebuild into the University Computer Science System \
Administrators Herd and the WebFarm Herd."

Brandon

-- 
Brandon Edens                                   brandon@cs.uri.edu
http://www.brandonedens.org
key 0x55438F48

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 15:26:07 -0500, Brandon Edens wrote:

> As for your bug, I guess I would have liked to have typed,
> $ equery comments mod_perl
> and seen information about that bug you posted.

emerge gentoo-bugger
bugger --keyword mod_perl
bugger --show 157239


-- 
Neil Bothwick

With 5 billion people on earth chances are slim it will ever be *your*
day.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Monday 18 December 2006 23:23, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 15:26:07 -0500, Brandon Edens wrote:
> > As for your bug, I guess I would have liked to have typed,
> > $ equery comments mod_perl
> > and seen information about that bug you posted.
>
> emerge gentoo-bugger
> bugger --keyword mod_perl
> bugger --show 157239

I prefer www-client/pybugz.

# emerge pybugz
# bugz search mod_perl
# bugz get 157239

:)

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 03:22:24 +0100, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:

> > emerge gentoo-bugger
> > bugger --keyword mod_perl
> > bugger --show 157239  
> 
> I prefer www-client/pybugz.
> 
> # emerge pybugz
> # bugz search mod_perl
> # bugz get 157239

Nice :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Unix is user-friendly. It's just very selective with who it's friends are.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:58:26 -0800, Grant wrote:

> Every user does add to the distro because they make it more popular,
> and, generally, a more popular distro will have more active developers
> than an unpopular distro.

It may, but you are confusing cause and effect. A distro with more
developers should be a better distro, and should have more users.

> Active developers make the distro.  For
> example, I submitted this bug about a mod_perl-2.0.3 version bump on
> 11-28-06, and there hasn't even been a reply yet:

Gentoo helps those who help themselves. Did you try renaming the 2.0.2
ebuild yourself? If so, you should have reported this, along with the
outcome. As for your second question, that could have been answered with
"eix mod_perl".


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Just don't give away the homeworld!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[John J. Foster]

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On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 10:37:10PM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:58:26 -0800, Grant wrote:
> 
> It may, but you are confusing cause and effect. A distro with more
> developers should be a better distro, and should have more users.
> 
Well, Microsoft has proven that theory wrong ;->

festus.

-- 
Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man's
original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been
made, through disobedience and through rebellion.
                                                     -- Oscar Wilde

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Jeff Rollin]

On 18/12/06, John J. Foster <Gentoo-User@festus.festusandsimone.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 10:37:10PM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:58:26 -0800, Grant wrote:
> >
> > It may, but you are confusing cause and effect. A distro with more
> > developers should be a better distro, and should have more users.
> >
> Well, Microsoft has proven that theory wrong ;->
>
> festus.
>
> --
Indeed. In fact Fred Brooks, (In "The Mythical Man Month",
specifically cited MS-DOS as one of the computing projects that
"people don't get excited about" - for the very reason you and he
cites, that throwing more developers at a project will not only fail
to improve it, and improve it faster, but will slow it down and make
it buggier.

Jeff
-- 
Now, did you hear the news today?
They say the danger's gone away
But I can hear the marching feet
Moving into the street

Adapted from Genesis, "Land of Confusion"

http://latedeveloperbasketcase.blogspot.com
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:18:19 +0000, Jeff Rollin wrote:

> On 18/12/06, John J. Foster <Gentoo-User@festus.festusandsimone.org>

> > > It may, but you are confusing cause and effect. A distro with more
> > > developers should be a better distro, and should have more users.
> > >
> > Well, Microsoft has proven that theory wrong ;->

Windows is not a distro. The development model is completely different.

On the other hand, Windows has more developers and users than any Linux
distro, so by the original argument, it must be much better...

> Indeed. In fact Fred Brooks, (In "The Mythical Man Month",
> specifically cited MS-DOS as one of the computing projects that
> "people don't get excited about" - for the very reason you and he
> cites, that throwing more developers at a project will not only fail
> to improve it, and improve it faster, but will slow it down and make
> it buggier.

Eric Raymond explained why this doesn't apply to open source development
in "The Cathedral and the Bazaar".


-- 
Neil Bothwick

ALZHEIMER.COM found . . . Out of . . . something . .

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Jeff Rollin]

On 19/12/06, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:18:19 +0000, Jeff Rollin wrote:
>
> > On 18/12/06, John J. Foster <Gentoo-User@festus.festusandsimone.org>
>
> > > > It may, but you are confusing cause and effect. A distro with more
> > > > developers should be a better distro, and should have more users.
> > > >
> > > Well, Microsoft has proven that theory wrong ;->
>
> Windows is not a distro. The development model is completely different.
>
> On the other hand, Windows has more developers and users than any Linux
> distro, so by the original argument, it must be much better...
>
> > Indeed. In fact Fred Brooks, (In "The Mythical Man Month",
> > specifically cited MS-DOS as one of the computing projects that
> > "people don't get excited about" - for the very reason you and he
> > cites, that throwing more developers at a project will not only fail
> > to improve it, and improve it faster, but will slow it down and make
> > it buggier.
>
> Eric Raymond explained why this doesn't apply to open source development
> in "The Cathedral and the Bazaar".
>
>
I haven't read it, BUT, in my understanding you still have to have
"the right people".

Yes, people can download (e.g.) the linux kernel and alter it willy
nilly, but unless linus and the rest of the core kernel team (no
capital letters) think it's a good idea, they will not integrate it.

Jeff.
http://latedeveloperbasketcase.blogspot.com
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Monday 18 December 2006 19:54, Grant wrote:
> > > I've caught a whiff or two lately that Gentoo is declining in
> > > popularity amongst users and developers.  Is it all in my head?  I
> > > personally still love Gentoo.
> >
> > there are always several phases in the life of a distri.
> >
> > Beginning, when it becomes 'cool' and a sudden surge in users, some time
> > of high popularity, a decline, and at the end, only the users who are
> > really 'the right ones' for that kind of distri are left.
> >
> > So the 'always using the cool thing' users are gone and the 'we are using
> > what the cool guys were using' crowd is leaving now. So what? Are they
> > important? No. At some point ubuntu will suffer the same. And then the
> > next cool distro de jour.
> >
> > Some decline in user interest is normal - and a healthy process. Because
> > it removes the 'I use it because it is cool' and 'I use it because
> > everybody else uses it' type of users.
>
> I'm thinking this over a bit more, and it seems like the best thing
> for Gentoo (or any distro) is a lot of users.  More users must mean
> more active developers, and more active developers must mean an
> increased rate of growth for the software.

this kind of users never turn into devs. This kind of users are writing 'good 
bye postings' in the forum about how much gentoo sucks and that 
INSERTNAMEHERE is much better.

>
> I believe the great benefit of Gentoo is its flexibility, and
> flexibility is like a meta-benefit because it makes possible any other
> benefit.  What do you think makes Ubuntu the distro of the moment?  Is
> it ease-of-use?  If Gentoo focused more on ease-of-use aspects of the
> Ubuntu variety, they would attract more users and thereby increase the
> rate of growth for the software.

all the hype about it (in ubuntus case, the hype even started before it was 
released, thanks to good marketing).

There is something called 'target audience'. Do you want to target the noobs? 
The 'I don't want to read anything' crowd? At the beginning, there was a 
big 'gentoo is for advanced users type' sign on the front page. If you dumb 
gentoo down to make it idiot-proof only idiots will use it. It is a good 
sign, that people from other distros are asking questions in the gentoo 
forums, because they expect good answers there. It is also a known fact, that 
ubuntus forums are very big - but good answers are rare. When ubuntu f*ed up 
a X update sometime ago, ou had thousands of helpless users. Do you really 
want that kind of people in gentoo?

I don't. They don't turn in admins or mods, they don't become devs, they whine 
a lot and because of them, choices are removed and the distro dumbed down.

Linux is not windows - and gentoo is not ubuntu, or linspire. If someone wants 
an easy-to-use Iamstupidandwanttostaythatway distro, there are already 
douzends of them. No need to turn gentoo in another one.

>
> Popular migration from one distro to the next sends a very important
> signal to any distro that wants to grow.
>


nope. It is just the wave of people who want to use the 
cool-distro-of-the-day. This people are like locusts. They wander from distro 
to distro. If something new pops up, they go there and stay a while before 
they 'discover' the next cool one and go there. And if you try to adapt to 
them, you will loose badly.

Debian did not adapt to the locusts, and they are a fine, healthy distro. 
Redhat did not adapt to them, mandriva tried and got bitten.
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Iain Buchanan]

On Mon, 2006-12-18 at 22:27 +0100, Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:
> On Monday 18 December 2006 19:54, Grant wrote:

> > I'm thinking this over a bit more, and it seems like the best thing
> > for Gentoo (or any distro) is a lot of users.  More users must mean
> > more active developers, and more active developers must mean an
> > increased rate of growth for the software.
> 
> this kind of users never turn into devs. This kind of users are writing 'good 
> bye postings' in the forum about how much gentoo sucks and that 
> INSERTNAMEHERE is much better.

/me searches the 'net for the INSERTNAMEHERE distro.  Tell me more - I
like the sound of this one, I hear it's really cool, and I'm thinking of
leaving Gentoo... NOT...

> > I believe the great benefit of Gentoo is its flexibility, and
> > flexibility is like a meta-benefit because it makes possible any other
> > benefit.  What do you think makes Ubuntu the distro of the moment?  Is
> > it ease-of-use?  If Gentoo focused more on ease-of-use aspects of the
> > Ubuntu variety, they would attract more users and thereby increase the
> > rate of growth for the software.
> 
> all the hype about it (in ubuntus case, the hype even started before it was 
> released, thanks to good marketing).
> 
> There is something called 'target audience'. Do you want to target the noobs? 

no!  I heard once (can't remember who / when) someone say (and I
paraphrase from memory) "don't call yourself a noob when you ask a
question on a ml.  noob is a term used to describe 'idiots' who don't
read, and don't try.  I can't understand when people say 'complete idiot
here, just wanting to ask a question'".

> The 'I don't want to read anything' crowd? At the beginning, there was a 
> big 'gentoo is for advanced users type' sign on the front page. If you dumb 
> gentoo down to make it idiot-proof only idiots will use it. 

If you make it more idiot proof, someone will make a better idiot.
You'd be chasing a moving target.

> It is a good 
> sign, that people from other distros are asking questions in the gentoo 
> forums, because they expect good answers there. It is also a known fact, that 
> ubuntus forums are very big - but good answers are rare. When ubuntu f*ed up 
> a X update sometime ago, ou had thousands of helpless users. Do you really 
> want that kind of people in gentoo?

On a side note, this ml would have to be proof that Gentoo is
maintaining a decent quality.  How many times have I heard "this is the
best mailing list with the most knowledgeable users"?


> nope. It is just the wave of people who want to use the 
> cool-distro-of-the-day.

hey that was me once upon a time.  That's how I found Gentoo, but then I
wasn't a noob at that stage, so I recognised what I found and stuck to
it...

-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than forgiveness for being 
right.

-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bryan Østergaard]

On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 10:54:06AM -0800, Grant wrote:
> >> I've caught a whiff or two lately that Gentoo is declining in
> >> popularity amongst users and developers.  Is it all in my head?  I
> >> personally still love Gentoo.
> >
> >there are always several phases in the life of a distri.
> >
> >Beginning, when it becomes 'cool' and a sudden surge in users, some time of
> >high popularity, a decline, and at the end, only the users who are
> >really 'the right ones' for that kind of distri are left.
> >
> >So the 'always using the cool thing' users are gone and the 'we are using 
> >what
> >the cool guys were using' crowd is leaving now. So what? Are they 
> >important?
> >No. At some point ubuntu will suffer the same. And then the next cool 
> >distro
> >de jour.
> >
> >Some decline in user interest is normal - and a healthy process. Because it
> >removes the 'I use it because it is cool' and 'I use it because everybody
> >else uses it' type of users.
> 
> I'm thinking this over a bit more, and it seems like the best thing
> for Gentoo (or any distro) is a lot of users.  More users must mean
> more active developers, and more active developers must mean an
> increased rate of growth for the software.
> 
> I believe the great benefit of Gentoo is its flexibility, and
> flexibility is like a meta-benefit because it makes possible any other
> benefit.  What do you think makes Ubuntu the distro of the moment?  Is
> it ease-of-use?  If Gentoo focused more on ease-of-use aspects of the
> Ubuntu variety, they would attract more users and thereby increase the
> rate of growth for the software.
> 
> Popular migration from one distro to the next sends a very important
> signal to any distro that wants to grow.
> 
I don't think our primary goal should be growth (in number of users /
developers). In fact I think there's a lot of issues that're much more
important to Gentoo.

Gentoo started with the stated goal of providing a metadistribution.
This basically means providing the best possible foundation for others
to tinker with any way they like. Be it building embedded applications,
making the next 'Ubuntu' or whatever. To me the flexibility that Gentoo
provides is one of the most important things.

Another thing that I think should go before popularity is quality. What
good is a distribution if it doesn't work half the time no matter how
many users it has?

In short, staying focused on Gentoos original goals and not getting
sidetracked by some meassure of popularity is a very good thing in my
opinion.

And for those who think Gentoo is declining I can only say that's
definitely not what I'm seeing as lead of developer relations and
recruiters. There's always some developers leaving but we have a lot
more developers joining us. In the last 3 years that I've been a Gentoo
developer we've grown from ~80 developers to 330+ developers. That's a
yearly growth of 60% or more.

Now, whether those 60% is the right people.. is another matter
altogether :)

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Uwe Thiem]

On 19 December 2006 00:23, Bryan Østergaard wrote:

> Gentoo started with the stated goal of providing a metadistribution.
> This basically means providing the best possible foundation for others
> to tinker with any way they like. Be it building embedded applications,
> making the next 'Ubuntu' or whatever. To me the flexibility that Gentoo
> provides is one of the most important things.

Exactly. Over the last 2 years or so, I have converted most of my customers to 
Gentoo - and it is a big relief compared to all those commercial 
distributions. I all ways had to fight their admin tools for any setup that 
wasn't completely standard. With Gentoo, I can set up systems exactly the way 
I want them without fighting anything. That's an incredible advantage from a 
professional sys/net-admin's POV.

> And for those who think Gentoo is declining I can only say that's
> definitely not what I'm seeing as lead of developer relations and
> recruiters. There's always some developers leaving but we have a lot
> more developers joining us. In the last 3 years that I've been a Gentoo
> developer we've grown from ~80 developers to 330+ developers. That's a
> yearly growth of 60% or more.

Amen. At last, someone provides numbers instead of speculation.

Now, if only open-xchange made the jump from hard masked to unstable. ;-)

Uwe

-- 
Mark Twain: I rather decline two drinks than a German adjective.
http://www.SysEx.com.na
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 10:54:06 -0800, Grant wrote:

> I'm thinking this over a bit more, and it seems like the best thing
> for Gentoo (or any distro) is a lot of users.  More users must mean
> more active developers, and more active developers must mean an
> increased rate of growth for the software.

"must mean"? Why? The only thing more users must mean is more users. If
you maintain the proportion of users-who-would-become-devs to
always-users your point may have some validity, but the ratio always
drops when a distro becomes popular. More users often means more work for
the same number of devs, it can be counter-productive.

> I believe the great benefit of Gentoo is its flexibility, and
> flexibility is like a meta-benefit because it makes possible any other
> benefit.  What do you think makes Ubuntu the distro of the moment?  Is
> it ease-of-use?  If Gentoo focused more on ease-of-use aspects of the
> Ubuntu variety, they would attract more users and thereby increase the
> rate of growth for the software.

Do we really need yet another easy to use distro? There are already more
than enough of those. Gentoo is for those who want maximum control over
their systems and are prepared to make the effort to achieve this. This
is for a different type of user. Turn Gentoo into yet another easy-to-use
distro and those people lose while those wanting ease of use gain very
little.

I really don't care if Gentoo is considered a minority distro, it is not,
and hopefully never will be, a mass market product.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

When you finally buy enough memory, you will not have enough disk space.
 -- Murphy's Computer Laws n°3

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Philip Webb]

061218 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> Do we really need yet another easy to use distro?
> Gentoo is for those who want maximum control over their systems
> and are prepared to make the effort to achieve this.

Ubuntu & ilk are supermarkets, where crowds shop for branded groceries.
Gentoo is a garden, where devotees grow their own healthy produce.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,  Philip Webb : purslow@chass.utoronto.ca
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|  Centre for Urban & Community Studies
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'  University of Toronto
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Daryl Mathison]

All,

    This thread caused me to go back to the website and reread the 
social contract that Gentoo has posted.  The contract lists a core set 
of values that the distribution keeps as a whole.  I feel that Gentoo is 
healthy based on this regard.  Of course, there are other things to 
factor but the values that a distro bases its actions will filter down 
to popularity and activity of the distro.

    I have used a lot of distros and I am beginning to see each distro, 
each OS as a tool to get a job done.  If your needs are for a 
roll-it-out-one-shot distro then use one of those.  If you need to have 
a specific set of tools and services running and nothing else, then I 
would use Gentoo.

    Gentoo's health relies on following the social contract it has 
posted and fulfilling the needs of its users.  Whether that is 1000 
users or 10,000 users is no matter. 

I am using three different distros in the project I am doing now.  One 
of the central distros is Gentoo.

Regards,

Daryl

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Mark Knecht]

Just getting around to reading this 59 post. Thread. Interesting. Thanks!

On 12/18/06, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 10:54:06 -0800, Grant wrote:
>
> > I'm thinking this over a bit more, and it seems like the best thing
> > for Gentoo (or any distro) is a lot of users.  More users must mean
> > more active developers, and more active developers must mean an
> > increased rate of growth for the software.
>
> "must mean"? Why? The only thing more users must mean is more users. If
> you maintain the proportion of users-who-would-become-devs to
> always-users your point may have some validity, but the ratio always
> drops when a distro becomes popular. More users often means more work for
> the same number of devs, it can be counter-productive.

This is very true.

>
> > I believe the great benefit of Gentoo is its flexibility, and
> > flexibility is like a meta-benefit because it makes possible any other
> > benefit.  What do you think makes Ubuntu the distro of the moment?  Is
> > it ease-of-use?  If Gentoo focused more on ease-of-use aspects of the
> > Ubuntu variety, they would attract more users and thereby increase the
> > rate of growth for the software.
>
> Do we really need yet another easy to use distro? There are already more
> than enough of those. Gentoo is for those who want maximum control over
> their systems and are prepared to make the effort to achieve this. This
> is for a different type of user. Turn Gentoo into yet another easy-to-use
> distro and those people lose while those wanting ease of use gain very
> little.

I agree again. The ONLY problem I'm having with Gentoo is the devs
removing older revs of things from portage. (ati-drivers, MythTV,
etc.)

My older, somewhat specialized  MYthTV frontends are boxes that
require specific kernel+ati-drivers combos to get SVideo to work. I've
found that when I need to upgrade these I find that the version of
ati-drivers that I'm currently using is no longer in portage. I lost
SVideo output on both my boxes for this reason and had to switch to
composite vidio. Bummer.

On those machines I'm seemingly forced to use ati-drivers because the
xorg ATI drivers only support VGA output on my ATI9200/Pundit-R
machines.

>
> I really don't care if Gentoo is considered a minority distro, it is not,
> and hopefully never will be, a mass market product.

I'd prefer it did not. I still love Gentoo. It's easily the most
stable distro I've ever run. (RH & Suse here.) The support from the
devs has been second to none.

- Mark

>
>
> --
> Neil Bothwick
>
> When you finally buy enough memory, you will not have enough disk space.
>  -- Murphy's Computer Laws n°3
>
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 20 December 2006 16:56, Mark Knecht wrote:

> I agree again. The ONLY problem I'm having with Gentoo is the devs
> removing older revs of things from portage. (ati-drivers, MythTV,
> etc.)

In cases like that, you use portage overlays. Then the ebuild will 
always be there until *you* delete it

Just another example of The Gentoo Way where the user is completely in 
control :-)

[snip]

> > I really don't care if Gentoo is considered a minority distro, it
> > is not, and hopefully never will be, a mass market product.
>
> I'd prefer it did not. I still love Gentoo. It's easily the most
> stable distro I've ever run. (RH & Suse here.) The support from the
> devs has been second to none.

I can attest to that. I run ~x86 on this notebook, sync daily and on 
*testing* *unstable* ebuilds I have to fix things only about once a 
week on average. That's phenomenal.

My day job is, amongst other things, delivering the Red Hat courses and 
supporting RHEL where we installed it for customers. Now RHEL is pretty 
good as an enterprise OS but it's also a binary distro and you are 
stuck with what the RH engineers decided to give you. They are a decent 
crowd and genuinely try their best but they can't satisfy everyone, so 
they've sacrificed flexibility for a standard, unchanging platform. To 
a gentoo user that just feels .... constrained

alan


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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Daniel da Veiga]

Gentoo - being different as it is - a metadistro, is by far the most
easy to mantain and support installs I've ever used. Most, if not all,
problems usually exist because some companies still relay in a single
distro specific behavior (companies that do not see the "big
picture"), the rest is pure beta testing result of your environment.

Gentoo is tied to upstream, the devs discuss, patch and help upstream,
with a user test base of thousands of users that daily read this ML
and go to the forums. This distro, along with all the benefits, still
contributes to upstream availability and stability, because we COMPILE
the source on so many different hardware/software combinations. I
would say Gentoo's bugzilla is where users (yes, those who do not
write C code) can expect their problems to be solved by experts, even
upstream developers, if someone think they should know about it, while
contributing for that specific package stability. We are the "high
level" (in programming sense) code test people! I feel proud of that.

Besides, with all the enhancements of the last few years, Gentoo has
become easy to install, overcoming problems like the "whole day
install process" and the "hours of compile time to get a browser"
problems that people who do not like Gentoo always use over the net
stating that "their distro is better".

Add to all that the FREEDOM, some people already stated that in this
thread. That is, by far (for me) the most incredible feature of
Gentoo. You can build a server, a desktop or a damn small kiosk with
little or no knowledge, because since the very begin you DECIDE what
you want, and that freedom keeps going till your system dies of age or
you decide to "kill" it! ;-) And still, with all this benefits, the
devs still provide a easy to use package management system with so
many features I haven't used most yet over this 3 years of being a
Gentoo user.

Gentoo is not dying, it is pretty healthy, I don't even know how
someone that frequently reads this ML can think something like that.
If the devs stop, or the distro is not healthy, problems occur, this
problems sum up till its dead, like the old "conectiva" distro I used
four years ago, but that is a long, painful agonizing process, not
something that comes in a day... I don't feel any symptoms.

-- 
Daniel da Veiga
Computer Operator - RS - Brazil
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCM/IT/P/O d-? s:- a? C++$ UBLA++ P+ L++ E--- W+++$ N o+ K- w O M- V-
PS PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+++ R+* tv b+ DI+++ D+ G+ e h+ r+ y++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Mark Knecht]

Hi Alan

On 12/20/06, Alan McKinnon <alan@linuxholdings.co.za> wrote:
> On Wednesday 20 December 2006 16:56, Mark Knecht wrote:
>
> > I agree again. The ONLY problem I'm having with Gentoo is the devs
> > removing older revs of things from portage. (ati-drivers, MythTV,
> > etc.)
>
> In cases like that, you use portage overlays. Then the ebuild will
> always be there until *you* delete it

The problem with this view of overlays has been that I do an eix-sync
and find that something I'm currently running been removed from
portage - for whatever reason but mostly it's been security issues or
the developer not wanting to maintain an old version. At that point
it's gone. I cannot put into an overlay what I don't have. Probably
most frustrating has been that I don't know it will be removed until
it's been removed. At that point it's too late to be easy. (Nobody
said Gentoo cannot be easy - right? If they told me that I wouldn't be
able to run it!) ;-)

I understand that every package is out there in some repository on the
web. I think Neil has pointed me toward it once or twice at least. The
problem is for a user type like me, and yes, I'm *purely* a user type,
it's a bit beyond my skillset today to go get it and build the overlay
myself.

I've mentioned this in the past but the idea has never gained
traction. If portage is thinking about removing an ebuild from my
machine why not just move it to some location on my machine so I've
always got a copy of what I was running? I could build my overlay from
what's been moved there. No pain at all. Or I can do what you suggest
and remove it.

Anyway, that's my view from user land on this subject. It is only this
area where Gentoo is a bit of a pain for me. To be honest I still use
etc-update since I didn't get comfortable with dispatch-conf. I'd like
to be a bit more confident with the tools when it comes to updating
config files but it's not so bad to make it a problem.

>
> Just another example of The Gentoo Way where the user is completely in
> control :-)

I agree! Just looking for better data management, not a change in the system.

>
> [snip]
>
> > > I really don't care if Gentoo is considered a minority distro, it
> > > is not, and hopefully never will be, a mass market product.
> >
> > I'd prefer it did not. I still love Gentoo. It's easily the most
> > stable distro I've ever run. (RH & Suse here.) The support from the
> > devs has been second to none.
>
> I can attest to that. I run ~x86 on this notebook, sync daily and on
> *testing* *unstable* ebuilds I have to fix things only about once a
> week on average. That's phenomenal.
>
> My day job is, amongst other things, delivering the Red Hat courses and
> supporting RHEL where we installed it for customers. Now RHEL is pretty
> good as an enterprise OS but it's also a binary distro and you are
> stuck with what the RH engineers decided to give you. They are a decent
> crowd and genuinely try their best but they can't satisfy everyone, so
> they've sacrificed flexibility for a standard, unchanging platform. To
> a gentoo user that just feels .... constrained
>
> alan

I'm 51, retired from Silicon Valley and now trade stocks for a living.
Unfortunately my trading platform is Windows but I'm writing you from
my #1 daytime machine - my AMD64 Gentoo desktop running Gnome - mostly
stable. For fun I write and record music using mostly Linux tools all
on Gentoo. My wife and 14 year old son run Gentoo. My 78 year old
father and 77 year old mother run Gentoo. Gentoo works, even for us
user types. ;-)

Cheers,
Mark
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RE: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Nelson, David (ED, PAR&D)]

Hi folks

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Knecht [mailto:markknecht@gmail.com]
> Sent: 20 December 2006 17:16
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

- snip snip -
> 
> The problem with this view of overlays has been that I do an eix-sync
> and find that something I'm currently running been removed from
> portage - for whatever reason but mostly it's been security issues or
> the developer not wanting to maintain an old version. At that point
> it's gone. I cannot put into an overlay what I don't have. Probably
> most frustrating has been that I don't know it will be removed until
> it's been removed. At that point it's too late to be easy. (Nobody
> said Gentoo cannot be easy - right? If they told me that I wouldn't be
> able to run it!) ;-)
> 
> I understand that every package is out there in some repository on the
> web. I think Neil has pointed me toward it once or twice at least. The
> problem is for a user type like me, and yes, I'm *purely* a user type,
> it's a bit beyond my skillset today to go get it and build the overlay
> myself.

Is there, or could there be, a method for giving say 7 days notice for when an ebuild is going to be removed? Or, what about keeping removed ebuilds somewhere on the gentoo website or someplace for say 28 days. So if you want it, you can grab it and put it in an overlay or wherever.

As far as I am aware the GWN lists ebuilds to be removed but are these only for dead programs rather than specific ebuilds/versions?

> 
> I'm 51, retired from Silicon Valley and now trade stocks for a living.
> Unfortunately my trading platform is Windows but I'm writing you from
> my #1 daytime machine - my AMD64 Gentoo desktop running Gnome - mostly
> stable. For fun I write and record music using mostly Linux tools all
> on Gentoo. My wife and 14 year old son run Gentoo. My 78 year old
> father and 77 year old mother run Gentoo. Gentoo works, even for us
> user types. ;-)

To continue the trend (or jump on the bandwagon)- I'm 20, Chemistry Student, doing an internship as an analytical/formulation/solid state Chemist for a pharmaceutical company. Unfortunately my 9-5 Mon-Fri box is Windows 2000/Office 2000 based (the response to my request for a *nix box was laughter)but my home server runs CentOS (set and forget for the most part) and my laptop (my main machine) runs Gentoo. Attempts to convert friends and family to Gentoo haven't worked so well although a few have tinkered with Ubuntu liveCDs.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Mark Knecht]

On 12/20/06, Nelson, David (ED, PAR&D) <David.Nelson2@astrazeneca.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
> > I understand that every package is out there in some repository on the
> > web. I think Neil has pointed me toward it once or twice at least. The
> > problem is for a user type like me, and yes, I'm *purely* a user type,
> > it's a bit beyond my skillset today to go get it and build the overlay
> > myself.
>
> Is there, or could there be, a method for giving say 7 days notice for when an ebuild is going to be removed? Or, what about keeping removed ebuilds somewhere on the gentoo website or someplace for say 28 days. So if you want it, you can grab it and put it in an overlay or wherever.
>

I'm sure this exists already. I don't know where it is but high level
users like Neil and others have pointed me at it before.

My personal problem was not finding it but moving it to my machine and
creating the overlay. I'm not sure of directory structure. I don't
know all the files that have to be there and where. I don't know about
running digests, etc., and being a user I'm not all that interested in
that stuff.

My thought was that if I had a directory that looked like portage but
held the old ebuilds then nothing gets removed - it just gets moved. I
could then moved that directory in this local repository to an overlay
and eix/portage would see it again.

Anyway, thanks for the interest and the ideas.

As for family members not a single one of them, except possibly my son
today could even have a chance of setting up a Linux box. My son's
first computer was RH when he was 6 or 7. Today's he's 14, runs
Gentoo, rips CDs, uses Aqualung & xmms. He *might* get through a RH
install but not Gentoo. It's not that Gentoo is so hard. It's that
none of them know anything about 'vi' so how could they even edit a
config file and give the system an IP address or point it at a name
server? (Maybe the graphical installer but I'd not let them try for
fear they'd wreck existing Windows installs trying to load it.)

Sometimes it's the things experienced people take most for granted
that can be the most difficult for new people.

Cheers,
Mark
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Jeff Rollin]

On 20/12/06, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/20/06, Nelson, David (ED, PAR&D) <David.Nelson2@astrazeneca.com> wrote:
> <SNIP>
> > > I understand that every package is out there in some repository on the
> > > web. I think Neil has pointed me toward it once or twice at least. The
> > > problem is for a user type like me, and yes, I'm *purely* a user type,
> > > it's a bit beyond my skillset today to go get it and build the overlay
> > > myself.
> >
> > Is there, or could there be, a method for giving say 7 days notice for when an ebuild is going to be removed? Or, what about keeping removed ebuilds somewhere on the gentoo website or someplace for say 28 days. So if you want it, you can grab it and put it in an overlay or wherever.
> >
>
> I'm sure this exists already. I don't know where it is but high level
> users like Neil and others have pointed me at it before.
>
> My personal problem was not finding it but moving it to my machine and
> creating the overlay. I'm not sure of directory structure. I don't
> know all the files that have to be there and where. I don't know about
> running digests, etc., and being a user I'm not all that interested in
> that stuff.
>
> My thought was that if I had a directory that looked like portage but
> held the old ebuilds then nothing gets removed - it just gets moved. I
> could then moved that directory in this local repository to an overlay
> and eix/portage would see it again.
>
> Anyway, thanks for the interest and the ideas.
>
> As for family members not a single one of them, except possibly my son
> today could even have a chance of setting up a Linux box. My son's
> first computer was RH when he was 6 or 7. Today's he's 14, runs
> Gentoo, rips CDs, uses Aqualung & xmms. He *might* get through a RH
> install but not Gentoo.

It's not like Gentoo is the only distro out there. It's only worth
starting from if you have (and are willing to take) the time to read
the docs.

It's not that Gentoo is so hard. It's that
> none of them know anything about 'vi' so how could they even edit a
> config file and give the system an IP address or point it at a name
> server? (Maybe the graphical installer but I'd not let them try for
> fear they'd wreck existing Windows installs trying to load it.)

Well last time I installed Gentoo the default editor was nano...with
all those lovely instructions on how to use it </sarcasm> cluttering
up the screen. Again, if you are going to take the time to READ the
instructions, it's not hard.

>
> Sometimes it's the things experienced people take most for granted
> that can be the most difficult for new people.

Granted, but most people are capable of reading and typing (even two
fingered typists). There are a lot more "consumer" gadgets that need
manuals (at least for "higher-order functions") than just computers.

Jeff
-- 
Now, did you hear the news today?
They say the danger's gone away
But I can hear the marching feet
Moving into the street

Adapted from Genesis, "Land of Confusion"

http://latedeveloperbasketcase.blogspot.com
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1191 bytes --]

On Wednesday 20 December 2006 18:42, Mark Knecht wrote:
> My personal problem was not finding it but moving it to my machine and
> creating the overlay. I'm not sure of directory structure. I don't
> know all the files that have to be there and where. I don't know about
> running digests, etc., and being a user I'm not all that interested in
> that stuff.

The structure isn't any different from the tree. In fact most of what's 
required in the tree doesn't need to be in an overlay.

If you have PORTDIR_OVERLAY="/usr/local/portage", then the ebuild goes 
into /usr/local/portage/$CATEGORY/$NAME/$NAME-$PVR.ebuild. It's that simple.

[SNIP]
> It's not that Gentoo is so hard. It's that
> none of them know anything about 'vi' so how could they even edit a
> config file and give the system an IP address or point it at a name
> server?

Well, they could just follow the handbook and hence use nano... *hint* *hint*

> (Maybe the graphical installer but I'd not let them try for 
> fear they'd wreck existing Windows installs trying to load it.)

That's a serious risk. Not when loading the disk but when trying to use it to 
install Gentoo.

-- 
Bo Andresen

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 20 December 2006 19:42, Mark Knecht wrote:

> As for family members not a single one of them, except possibly my
> son today could even have a chance of setting up a Linux box.

Looks like you are assuming stuff up front and never actually getting 
round to checking it out for real

> My 
> son's first computer was RH when he was 6 or 7. Today's he's 14, runs
> Gentoo, rips CDs, uses Aqualung & xmms. He *might* get through a RH
> install but not Gentoo. 

Can't he read or something? Gentoo's install is more heavily documented 
than any other distro out there

> It's not that Gentoo is so hard. It's that 
> none of them know anything about 'vi' so how could they even edit a
> config file and give the system an IP address or point it at a name
> server? 

The basic installer does not provide vi for this exact reason. It 
provides nano, so this objection doesn't even rear it's head

> (Maybe the graphical installer but I'd not let them try for 
> fear they'd wreck existing Windows installs trying to load it.)

The risk that the user might nuke the partitions containing Windows is 
always there regardless of what distro you use. You still make the same 
decisions, fdisk, cfdisk and gparted are still there. Whether you click 
here, click OK then say "oops..." or type "fdisk /dev/sda" <some stuff> 
then say "oops" you're still gonna say "oops" ....

alan
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Jeff Rollin]

On 21/12/06, Alan McKinnon <alan@linuxholdings.co.za> wrote:

> The risk that the user might nuke the partitions containing Windows is
> always there regardless of what distro you use. You still make the same
> decisions, fdisk, cfdisk and gparted are still there. Whether you click
> here, click OK then say "oops..." or type "fdisk /dev/sda" <some stuff>
> then say "oops" you're still gonna say "oops" ....
>
This is the part where I point out (for the benefit of readers *other*
than Alan, probably) that the user, if he is going to have to
(re)install Windows, is at risk of nuking the partitions already
containing Windows/Linux/SkyOS/$MYFAVOS anyway. "Whether you click
here, click ok then say 'oops' or type 'fdisk c:' <some stuff> then
say 'oops' you're still gonna say 'oops'".

Last I heard, btw, Windows was still using a nasty
type-at-me-don't-click partitioner.

My £0.02

Jeff.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Dale]

Jeff Rollin wrote:
> On 21/12/06, Alan McKinnon <alan@linuxholdings.co.za> wrote:
>
>> The risk that the user might nuke the partitions containing Windows is
>> always there regardless of what distro you use. You still make the same
>> decisions, fdisk, cfdisk and gparted are still there. Whether you click
>> here, click OK then say "oops..." or type "fdisk /dev/sda" <some stuff>
>> then say "oops" you're still gonna say "oops" ....
>>
> This is the part where I point out (for the benefit of readers *other*
> than Alan, probably) that the user, if he is going to have to
> (re)install Windows, is at risk of nuking the partitions already
> containing Windows/Linux/SkyOS/$MYFAVOS anyway. "Whether you click
> here, click ok then say 'oops' or type 'fdisk c:' <some stuff> then
> say 'oops' you're still gonna say 'oops'".
>
> Last I heard, btw, Windows was still using a nasty
> type-at-me-don't-click partitioner.
>
> My £0.02
>
> Jeff.
>

All things considered, Mandrake is easier to install than windoze any
day.  You think about it, you set up the drives, select ALL the software
you can fit and hit the install button.  How easy is that?  You only
have to reboot once too.  I counted six reboots the last time I
installed XP for somebody.  It took longer too.  Then you get to install
the software you had to buy, including anti-virus, adware protection,
trojan watchers and all that.

Yea, I pick Linux. 

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-)


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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Jeff Rollin]

On 21/12/06, Dale <dalek@exceedtech.net> wrote:

>
> All things considered, Mandrake is easier to install than windoze any
> day.  You think about it, you set up the drives, select ALL the software
> you can fit and hit the install button.  How easy is that?  You only
> have to reboot once too.  I counted six reboots the last time I
> installed XP for somebody.  It took longer too.  Then you get to install
> the software you had to buy, including anti-virus, adware protection,
> trojan watchers and all that.
>
> Yea, I pick Linux.
>

Precisely.

Jeff
http://latedeveloperbasketcase.blogspot.com
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RE: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Nelson, David (ED, PAR&D)]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Rollin [mailto:jeff.rollin@gmail.com]
> Sent: 21 December 2006 16:12
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?
> 
> 
> On 21/12/06, Dale <dalek@exceedtech.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> > All things considered, Mandrake is easier to install than 
> windoze any
> > day.  You think about it, you set up the drives, select ALL 
> the software
> > you can fit and hit the install button.  How easy is that?  You only
> > have to reboot once too.  I counted six reboots the last time I
> > installed XP for somebody.  It took longer too.  Then you 
> get to install
> > the software you had to buy, including anti-virus, adware 
> protection,
> > trojan watchers and all that.
> >
> > Yea, I pick Linux.
> >
> 
> Precisely.
> 
> Jeff

Credit where credit is due, Windows XP improves over Windows 98 in that it doesnt dump you at a plan desktop with no drivers installed. They are making progress, and soon Windows may actually be ready for the desktop ;)

David

Note: These views are my own, advice is provided with no guarantee of success. I do not represent anyone else in any emails I send to this list.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Jeff Rollin]

On 21/12/06, Nelson, David (ED, PAR&D) <David.Nelson2@astrazeneca.com> wrote:

> > > All things considered, Mandrake is easier to install than
> > windoze any
> > > day.  You think about it, you set up the drives, select ALL
> > the software
> > > you can fit and hit the install button.  How easy is that?  You only
> > > have to reboot once too.  I counted six reboots the last time I
> > > installed XP for somebody.  It took longer too.  Then you
> > get to install
> > > the software you had to buy, including anti-virus, adware
> > protection,
> > > trojan watchers and all that.
> > >
> > > Yea, I pick Linux.

> Credit where credit is due, Windows XP improves over Windows 98 in that it doesnt dump you at a plan desktop with no drivers installed. They are making progress, and soon Windows may actually be ready for the desktop ;)
>
> David
>
Call me just-an-MS-hating-Grinch if you want to, but the thing I find
most frustrating about MS Windows is that for every advance they make
in one area, they take a step backwards in another! Yes, XP does come
with drivers, and does include a fire-and-forget installation option
for those that want it - but it also loses lots of drivers - i
remember having to get on the net on another machine because xp didn't
include a driver for a serially-attached external modem. Bah! Not to
mention that instead of hiding an "advanced" installation option which
lets you install on whichever drive you like, with whatever software
options you like, behind some sort of "curtain" - maybe, umm, I dunno,
a button marked "advanced installation"? - it instead /completely
removes the possibility of doing an advanced installation at all!

Poo!

Jeff
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 20 December 2006 18:28, Nelson, David (ED, PAR&D) wrote:
> Is there, or could there be, a method for giving say 7 days notice for when
> an ebuild is going to be removed?

When we are talking about old ebuilds being removed in favour of newer 
available ebuilds this just isn't feasible imo. It would be a lot of added 
work for no good reason.

If on the other hand we speak of entire packages being removed from portage 
then policy dictates that it is masked for removal for 30 days before it is 
actually removed. Furthermore it is now mentioned in GWN.

> Or, what about keeping removed ebuilds 
> somewhere on the gentoo website or someplace for say 28 days. So if you
> want it, you can grab it and put it in an overlay or wherever.

It will stay in cvs forever. Not just 28 days. Just click the "Show ? dead 
files" link in any folder to see files that have been removed from the tree.
http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo-x86/

> As far as I am aware the GWN lists ebuilds to be removed but are these only
> for dead programs rather than specific ebuilds/versions?

Yes.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 20 December 2006 18:16, Mark Knecht wrote:
[SNIP]
> I understand that every package is out there in some repository on the
> web. I think Neil has pointed me toward it once or twice at least. The
> problem is for a user type like me, and yes, I'm *purely* a user type,
> it's a bit beyond my skillset today to go get it and build the overlay
> myself.

Yes, http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo-x86/ . And it contains every 
ebuild (and patch) that has ever been in the tree. It really isn't that hard.

> I've mentioned this in the past but the idea has never gained
> traction. If portage is thinking about removing an ebuild from my
> machine why not just move it to some location on my machine so I've
> always got a copy of what I was running? I could build my overlay from
> what's been moved there. No pain at all. Or I can do what you suggest
> and remove it.

Portage already copies the ebuild into the vdb (/var/db/pkg/$category/$name) 
when you install a package. You can copy the ebuild from there. The problem 
is when it requires patches in $FILESDIR which isn't copied to the vdb.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Is Gentoo healthy?

[Andrey Gerasimenko]

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:39:46 +0300, Bo Ørsted Andresen  
<bo.andresen@zlin.dk> wrote:

> On Wednesday 20 December 2006 18:16, Mark Knecht wrote:
> [SNIP]
>> I understand that every package is out there in some repository on the
>> web. I think Neil has pointed me toward it once or twice at least. The
>> problem is for a user type like me, and yes, I'm *purely* a user type,
>> it's a bit beyond my skillset today to go get it and build the overlay
>> myself.
>
> Yes, http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo-x86/ . And it contains  
> every
> ebuild (and patch) that has ever been in the tree. It really isn't that  
> hard.
>

Looks like we have got a bug in the Gentoo handbook. This link should be  
mentioned together with the recommendation for how often should I sync the  
portage tree. I guess the right place is an annotation to the first  
request to sync the tree. There are 3 problems for a new user not  
discussed in the handbook:

If I get some problem, then why not to start all over again, that is, sync  
a tree? Do so every 15 minutes and the rsync server promises to get angry.  
I did not do that but found the advice on the maximum syncing rate way too  
late.

If I have a problem with sync (as I had some network problem installing  
 from Knoppix live CD), it is good to know (not to guess) that I do not  
need to sync at all if I just downloaded the latest tree.

When SHOULD I sync again? That is, for how long may I not to sync and  
expect that ebuilds can find the files they need to download at the  
expected locations? It looks like this depends on the good will of 3-d  
parties, for example, I will get nVidia legacy drivers only if nVidia  
keeps them on their site or the mirror I use keeps them. I still do not  
know for how long old ebuilds keep working. I understand that some ebuilds  
can stop working any time when a 3-d party changes the file they do not  
allow to put on mirrors, but what is normal for an ebuild?

-- 
Andrei Gerasimenko
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Is Gentoo healthy?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thursday 21 December 2006 10:00, Andrey Gerasimenko wrote:
> When SHOULD I sync again? That is, for how long may I not to sync and
>   expect that ebuilds can find the files they need to download at the
> expected locations? It looks like this depends on the good will of
> 3-d parties, for example, I will get nVidia legacy drivers only if
> nVidia keeps them on their site or the mirror I use keeps them. I
> still do not know for how long old ebuilds keep working. I understand
> that some ebuilds can stop working any time when a 3-d party changes
> the file they do not allow to put on mirrors, but what is normal for
> an ebuild?

It depends.

You see, this is like asking how long is a piece of string? Because we 
have no idea when the vendors will change their drivers, so the ebuild 
is valid for as long as it still works and the download is available. 
Note carefully that none of that is in any way under a gentoo dev's 
control

Now often should you sync? There is no rule, and none is possible, so 
don't ask for one. I can give you some tips from experience though:

If you run ~arch you might want to sync ever few days or so. For a 
regular stable (arch) system, I found once a week or once a fortnight 
suited me. You might be different. So try syncing once a week, if you 
find that you can cope OK with that, stick with it. Otherwise, sync 
more or less often till you find the interval that suits you.

alan

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RE: [gentoo-user] OT: Is Gentoo healthy?

[Nelson, David (ED, PAR&D)]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan McKinnon [mailto:alan@linuxholdings.co.za]
> Sent: 21 December 2006 08:33
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Is Gentoo healthy?
> 
> Now often should you sync? There is no rule, and none is possible, so 
> don't ask for one. I can give you some tips from experience though:
> 
> If you run ~arch you might want to sync ever few days or so. For a 
> regular stable (arch) system, I found once a week or once a fortnight 
> suited me. You might be different. So try syncing once a week, if you 
> find that you can cope OK with that, stick with it. Otherwise, sync 
> more or less often till you find the interval that suits you.
> 
> alan


I tend to sync my one gentoo machine every day or two, because I like to stay up to date and play with the newest toys :). I have however paid for this enjoyment in the form of hours fixing my machine, serveral times!

If you are aiming for as stable a machine as possible I would only update what you need to update, or specific packages you want to update or add. I admit to being the type that just updates everything (usually).

David

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:00:41 +0300, Andrey Gerasimenko wrote:

> When SHOULD I sync again? That is, for how long may I not to sync and  
> expect that ebuilds can find the files they need to download at the  
> expected locations? It looks like this depends on the good will of 3-d  
> parties, for example, I will get nVidia legacy drivers only if nVidia  
> keeps them on their site or the mirror I use keeps them. I still do
> not know for how long old ebuilds keep working. I understand that some
> ebuilds can stop working any time when a 3-d party changes the file
> they do not allow to put on mirrors, but what is normal for an ebuild?

Files are removed from the mirrors two weeks after the last ebuild using
them is removed from the tree, so if you sync every two weeks you should
never suffer from missing source files (apart fro restricted ebuilds).


-- 
Neil Bothwick

As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Is Gentoo healthy?

[Andrey Gerasimenko]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:25:01 +0300, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>  
wrote:

>
> Files are removed from the mirrors two weeks after the last ebuild using
> them is removed from the tree, so if you sync every two weeks you should
> never suffer from missing source files (apart fro restricted ebuilds).
>
>

Thanks. Must be found early in the Gentoo handbook.

-- 
Andrei Gerasimenko
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Thursday 21 December 2006 10:43, Andrey Gerasimenko wrote:
> > Files are removed from the mirrors two weeks after the last ebuild using
> > them is removed from the tree, so if you sync every two weeks you should
> > never suffer from missing source files (apart fro restricted ebuilds).
>
> Thanks. Must be found early in the Gentoo handbook.

No. But here:

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/infrastructure/mirrors/overview-distfile.xml

:)

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Is Gentoo healthy?

[Andrey Gerasimenko]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:52:53 +0300, Bo Ørsted Andresen  
<bo.andresen@zlin.dk> wrote:

> On Thursday 21 December 2006 10:43, Andrey Gerasimenko wrote:
>> > Files are removed from the mirrors two weeks after the last ebuild  
>> using
>> > them is removed from the tree, so if you sync every two weeks you  
>> should
>> > never suffer from missing source files (apart fro restricted ebuilds).
>>
>> Thanks. Must be found early in the Gentoo handbook.
>
> No. But here:
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/infrastructure/mirrors/overview-distfile.xml
>
> :)
>

Wow! It is in the docs already! I find this "Gentoo Distfiles Mirrowing  
System - Overview" worth reading from the user perspective, but the path  
to it leads through the developer specific stuff and the title is not  
listed in http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/list.xml.

I would get there all by myself reading gradually all the Gentoo  
documentation, but this mailing list made that happen sooner :).

-- 
Andrei Gerasimenko
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Is Gentoo healthy?

[Danyelle Gragsone]

wow.. this thing is still going..

On 12/21/06, Andrey Gerasimenko <gak@kaluga.ru> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:52:53 +0300, Bo Ørsted Andresen
> <bo.andresen@zlin.dk> wrote:
>
> > On Thursday 21 December 2006 10:43, Andrey Gerasimenko wrote:
> >> > Files are removed from the mirrors two weeks after the last ebuild
> >> using
> >> > them is removed from the tree, so if you sync every two weeks you
> >> should
> >> > never suffer from missing source files (apart fro restricted ebuilds).
> >>
> >> Thanks. Must be found early in the Gentoo handbook.
> >
> > No. But here:
> >
> > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/infrastructure/mirrors/overview-distfile.xml
> >
> > :)
> >
>
> Wow! It is in the docs already! I find this "Gentoo Distfiles Mirrowing
> System - Overview" worth reading from the user perspective, but the path
> to it leads through the developer specific stuff and the title is not
> listed in http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/list.xml.
>
> I would get there all by myself reading gradually all the Gentoo
> documentation, but this mailing list made that happen sooner :).
>
> --
> Andrei Gerasimenko
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Benno Schulenberg]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> At that point it's gone. I cannot put into an overlay
> what I don't have. Probably most frustrating has been that I
> don't know it will be removed until it's been removed.

You could, as soon as you have a system in a working state, tar up 
the entire /usr/portage tree, and then, when you find an upgrade 
has broken an essential package, untar the ball over your new tree, 
and re-emerge the old version of the package.  Once a month or so, 
when you find that also the newest tree gives you a working system, 
you would tar up that /usr/portage instead and remove the old one.  
This is the dead simple, brute force way, no overlay required.  :)

Benno

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Mark Knecht]

On 12/20/06, Benno Schulenberg <benno.schulenberg@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Knecht wrote:
> > At that point it's gone. I cannot put into an overlay
> > what I don't have. Probably most frustrating has been that I
> > don't know it will be removed until it's been removed.
>
> You could, as soon as you have a system in a working state, tar up
> the entire /usr/portage tree, and then, when you find an upgrade
> has broken an essential package, untar the ball over your new tree,
> and re-emerge the old version of the package.  Once a month or so,
> when you find that also the newest tree gives you a working system,
> you would tar up that /usr/portage instead and remove the old one.
> This is the dead simple, brute force way, no overlay required.  :)
>
> Benno
>

Yes, I think this is a simple answer. A bit difficult for 5-7 machines
if I do it separately for each, but not too bad.

If I wanted to take the plunge I should probably learn to run my own
portage server where I suppose I could learn to keep things like this
even if the main server wants to get rid of things.

The thing is that I don't want to start ignoring valid reasons to get
rid of packages, like security problems or broken code that's fixed in
new revs.

Anyway, I appreciate all the ideas and everyone's POV. I'm just
speaking from what I've seen and experienced.

Cheers and out for now,
Mark
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Uwe Thiem]

On 20 December 2006 21:39, Mark Knecht wrote:

> If I wanted to take the plunge I should probably learn to run my own
> portage server where I suppose I could learn to keep things like this
> even if the main server wants to get rid of things.

You don't need to do that. I have one box with a portage tree. All my other 
computers simply NFS mount /usr/portage of that box as local /usr/portage. 
Bandwidth is expensive in this part of the world. So I really don't want to 
download the same stuff for each of my boxes.

Your different boxes can still have different world files but share a single 
portage tree. Works perfectly here. No need for a private mirror.

Uwe

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:39:23 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote:

> > You could, as soon as you have a system in a working state, tar up
> > the entire /usr/portage tree,

> Yes, I think this is a simple answer. A bit difficult for 5-7 machines
> if I do it separately for each, but not too bad.

There's no need to do it separately, the portage tree is the same for all
of them. Just make sure you exclude distfiles and packages or you're going
to need an awful lot of disk space :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The present never ages. Each moment is like a snowflake, unique,
unspoiled, unrepeatable, and can be appreciated in its surprisingness.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 20 December 2006 21:09, Benno Schulenberg wrote:
> Mark Knecht wrote:
> > At that point it's gone. I cannot put into an overlay
> > what I don't have. Probably most frustrating has been that I
> > don't know it will be removed until it's been removed.
>
> You could, as soon as you have a system in a working state, tar up
> the entire /usr/portage tree, and then, when you find an upgrade
> has broken an essential package, untar the ball over your new tree,
> and re-emerge the old version of the package.  Once a month or so,
> when you find that also the newest tree gives you a working system,
> you would tar up that /usr/portage instead and remove the old one.
> This is the dead simple, brute force way, no overlay required.  :)

No, no, no that's waaaaaaaay too much work.

Archive a portage tree by all means. But if an ebuild is removed that a 
user want to keep, the solution is so simple it's amazing. Copy the 
ebuild to /usr/local/portage in the correct directory structure. I 
maintain my own enlightenment-17 ebuilds, so to start I did this:

mkdir -p /usr/local/portage/x11-wm
cp -ar /usr/portage/x11-wm/e /usr/local/portage/x11-wm

Run emerge. Simple as that. You might need to add an entry to 
package.mask so that portage won't use later versions in the main tree 
but that's all part of normal gentoo usage anyway

There's a howto on gentoo.org that explains this in great detail. Use 
it, it's the way portage let's you keep old stuff around.

alan
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Benno Schulenberg]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Wednesday 20 December 2006 21:09, Benno Schulenberg wrote:
> > Mark Knecht wrote:
> > > At that point it's gone. I cannot put into an overlay
> > > what I don't have. Probably most frustrating has been that I
> > > don't know it will be removed until it's been removed.
> >
> > You could, as soon as you have a system in a working state, tar
> > up the entire /usr/portage tree, [...]
>
> No, no, no that's waaaaaaaay too much work.

On the contrary, it's very little work: just a simple tar command.  
But the tarball will eat loads of disk space when not excluding 
distfiles.

> Archive a portage tree by all means. But if an ebuild is removed
> that a user want to keep, the solution is so simple it's amazing.
> Copy the ebuild to /usr/local/portage [...]

But he can't: the ebuild is gone.  That is the case we're trying to 
solve here: he has emerged a newer version of a package, finds it 
doesn't work correctly, wants to go back to the previous version, 
but seess that that version is gone.  How to get it back?  One way 
is to get it from viewcvs on the net.  Another way is to keep a copy 
of all the ebuilds yourself.  It's a big waste of space, but it is 
simple, no searching on the web required.

The best way, of course, is to use the binary package thing.  Mark: 
add EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="-b" to your /etc/make.conf.  This will 
tell emerge to also build a binary package for every package that 
you emerge.  Whenever you find that an upgrade of some package was 
unfortunate, do an  'emerge  -K  =package-x.y.z'  with the exact 
version number you want to restore, and done.  No manual tarring 
and untarring required, emerge does it all.

Benno
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Thursday 21 December 2006 22:28, Benno Schulenberg wrote:
> The best way, of course, is to use the binary package thing.  Mark:
> add EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="-b" to your /etc/make.conf.

Heh, that's FEATURES=buildpkg.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Mark Knecht]

On 12/21/06, Benno Schulenberg <benno.schulenberg@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > On Wednesday 20 December 2006 21:09, Benno Schulenberg wrote:
> > > Mark Knecht wrote:
> > > > At that point it's gone. I cannot put into an overlay
> > > > what I don't have. Probably most frustrating has been that I
> > > > don't know it will be removed until it's been removed.
> > >
> > > You could, as soon as you have a system in a working state, tar
> > > up the entire /usr/portage tree, [...]
> >
> > No, no, no that's waaaaaaaay too much work.
>
> On the contrary, it's very little work: just a simple tar command.
> But the tarball will eat loads of disk space when not excluding
> distfiles.
>
> > Archive a portage tree by all means. But if an ebuild is removed
> > that a user want to keep, the solution is so simple it's amazing.
> > Copy the ebuild to /usr/local/portage [...]
>
> But he can't: the ebuild is gone.  That is the case we're trying to
> solve here: he has emerged a newer version of a package, finds it
> doesn't work correctly, wants to go back to the previous version,
> but seess that that version is gone.  How to get it back?  One way
> is to get it from viewcvs on the net.  Another way is to keep a copy
> of all the ebuilds yourself.  It's a big waste of space, but it is
> simple, no searching on the web required.
>
> The best way, of course, is to use the binary package thing.  Mark:
> add EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="-b" to your /etc/make.conf.  This will
> tell emerge to also build a binary package for every package that
> you emerge.  Whenever you find that an upgrade of some package was
> unfortunate, do an  'emerge  -K  =package-x.y.z'  with the exact
> version number you want to restore, and done.  No manual tarring
> and untarring required, emerge does it all.
>
> Benno

Benno,
   Now that is an interesting solution, especially for my Myth boxes
which do not get touched for 6 months to 1 year. I've had problems
with Gentoo devs getting rid of older ati-drivers, mythtv to some
small extent ivtv a long time ago. Anyway, if binary packages were
built and stored in some reasonable location then I could probably
prune out things that I'm not worried about, like fluxbox, etc., but
keep the critical stuff like Myth, video drivers.

   I'll check it out, as well as Bo's FEATURES=buildpkg comment.

   I wonder if -b could be put in one of the /etc/portage/package.XXX
files so that it could be done every time for ejust specific packages?

   Thanks for the idea!

Cheers,
Mark
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Friday 22 December 2006 01:26, Mark Knecht wrote:
> I wonder if -b could be put in one of the /etc/portage/package.XXX
> files so that it could be done every time for ejust specific packages?

That doesn't seem to work (because the FEATURES and EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS vars 
are checked on the python side before sourcing bashrc). What you can do, 
however, is use quickpkg to create a binary package after it has been 
installed. That can be automated via the post_pkg_postinst() user hook:

# mkdir -p /etc/portage/env/$category && \
echo 'post_pkg_postinst() {
    quickpkg ="${CATEGORY}/${PF}"
}' > /etc/portage/env/$category/$name

Personally I just use FEATURES="buildpkg fixpackages" (and more) for 
everything though. :)

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Benno Schulenberg]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> if binary packages were built and stored in some reasonable
> location then I could probably prune out things that I'm not
> worried about,

But then, one day, you'll see that you've pruned something you 
shouldn't have, something that one of the things you did keep needs 
as a dependency.  Better keep everything.  Disks are gigantic these 
days, surely you can spare a gigabyte or two for binary packages.

>    I wonder if -b could be put in one of the
> /etc/portage/package.XXX files

Better go with the FEATURES=buildpkg that Bo pointed out, that is 
the mechanism that emerge provides for this situation.  Myself, I 
don't use buildpkg nor default option -b, I simply keep a second 
partition around with a Gentoo system in a working state.  If ever 
the primary gets messed up, I can reboot into the second one and 
use that until I have the first repaired.

Benno
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:45:40 +0100, Benno Schulenberg wrote:

> > if binary packages were built and stored in some reasonable
> > location then I could probably prune out things that I'm not
> > worried about,  

They are stored wherever you tell portage to store them.

> But then, one day, you'll see that you've pruned something you 
> shouldn't have, something that one of the things you did keep needs 
> as a dependency.  Better keep everything.  Disks are gigantic these 
> days, surely you can spare a gigabyte or two for binary packages.

du /mnt/portage/packages/
5.5G    /mnt/portage/packages/
5.5G    total

That's for five machines, each having a separate package store. The last
clean up was two weeks ago, but all the machines run ~arch, so there's
already a lot of superceded packages in there. Your estimate of space
requirements seems spot on for a single machine :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Intel: where Quality is job number 0.9998782345!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thursday 21 December 2006 23:28, Benno Schulenberg wrote:


> But he can't: the ebuild is gone.  That is the case we're trying to
> solve here: he has emerged a newer version of a package, finds it
> doesn't work correctly, wants to go back to the previous version,
> but seess that that version is gone.  How to get it back?  One way
> is to get it from viewcvs on the net.  Another way is to keep a copy
> of all the ebuilds yourself.  It's a big waste of space, but it is
> simple, no searching on the web required.
>
> The best way, of course, is to use the binary package thing.  Mark:
> add EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="-b" to your /etc/make.conf.  This will
> tell emerge to also build a binary package for every package that
> you emerge.  Whenever you find that an upgrade of some package was
> unfortunate, do an  'emerge  -K  =package-x.y.z'  with the exact
> version number you want to restore, and done.  No manual tarring
> and untarring required, emerge does it all.

I can't believe you are advocating either of those solutions. It means 
you retain 500M worth of tgz'ed portage tree for just in case an ebuild 
leaves the tree. Any custom changes you make to the tree are wiped out 
with the next --sync anyway, so now the user has to remember which ones 
were updated and remember to put them all back.

A bin package is equally cumbersome. You will very quickly consume huge 
amounts of disk space - at least equal to all the current packages on 
the system plus old ones that were updated. With an average notebook 
40G drive, that's 40% of your disk space gone right there. And the user 
still has to remember which packages are the customized ones.

Trust me, the portage devs have already figured all this out and 
overlays are exactly the solution for this. The user already has to be 
online to have updated, so all he needs do is get the desired ebuild 
from cvs, copy it to /usr/local/portage, block updates to that package 
using package.mask and then GO AWAY AND FORGET ALL ABOUT IT. No more 
maintenance, no monthly tars, no vast amounts of disk space consumed. 
it all just works.

Tell me, have you ever actually used overlays? 

alan

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 09:16:10 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> I can't believe you are advocating either of those solutions. It means 
> you retain 500M worth of tgz'ed portage tree for just in case an ebuild 
> leaves the tree. Any custom changes you make to the tree are wiped out 
> with the next --sync anyway, so now the user has to remember which ones 
> were updated and remember to put them all back.

Except it's not 500MB, as you'll see by looking at the snapshots
directory on any Gentoo mirror. Of course, the fact that portage trees
for the last couple of weeks are nicely tarred up on all the Gentoo
mirrors makes this process pointless anyway :)

> A bin package is equally cumbersome. You will very quickly consume huge 
> amounts of disk space - at least equal to all the current packages on 
> the system plus old ones that were updated.

Maybe, but they do provide an extremely useful fallback, especially for
those of us running ~arch systems. Being able to roll back to an older,
working version in seconds rather than minutes or hours is a definite
benefit.

> With an average notebook 
> 40G drive, that's 40% of your disk space gone right there.

Which is why I have $PKGDIR on an NFS mounted drive. Desktop drives are
big and cheap.

> And the user 
> still has to remember which packages are the customized ones.
> 
> Trust me, the portage devs have already figured all this out and 
> overlays are exactly the solution for this. The user already has to be 
> online to have updated, so all he needs do is get the desired ebuild 
> from cvs, copy it to /usr/local/portage, block updates to that package 
> using package.mask and then GO AWAY AND FORGET ALL ABOUT IT. No more 
> maintenance, no monthly tars, no vast amounts of disk space consumed. 
> it all just works.

Absolutely. Overlays are there specifically for people who need something
different from the standard portage tree. They are hardly difficult to
use, as long as you know how to use mkdir and cp. When a user has a
system that depends on specific versions of particular packages, all he
has to do is copy them from /usr/portage to the overlay. You shouldn't
even need to mess with CVS, as soon as you mask all newer versions of a
package, you should copy its ebuild directory to your overlay to keep it
safe. Old versions do not disappear as soon as a newer version comes out,
unless the previous version had a serious security hole.

mkdir -p /usr/local/portage/category
cp -a /usr/portage/category/package /usr/local/portage/category

How hard is that?


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If everything is coming your way then you're in the wrong lane.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Friday 22 December 2006 11:06, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 09:16:10 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > I can't believe you are advocating either of those solutions. It
> > means you retain 500M worth of tgz'ed portage tree for just in case
> > an ebuild leaves the tree. Any custom changes you make to the tree
> > are wiped out with the next --sync anyway, so now the user has to
> > remember which ones were updated and remember to put them all back.
>
> Except it's not 500MB, as you'll see by looking at the snapshots
> directory on any Gentoo mirror. Of course, the fact that portage
> trees for the last couple of weeks are nicely tarred up on all the
> Gentoo mirrors makes this process pointless anyway :)

My /usr/portage (without distfiles) is 558,560 blocks of 1k each. I have 
no idea what it will .tar.gz down to

[snip]

> > Trust me, the portage devs have already figured all this out and
> > overlays are exactly the solution for this. The user already has to
> > be online to have updated, so all he needs do is get the desired
> > ebuild from cvs, copy it to /usr/local/portage, block updates to
> > that package using package.mask and then GO AWAY AND FORGET ALL
> > ABOUT IT. No more maintenance, no monthly tars, no vast amounts of
> > disk space consumed. it all just works.
>
> Absolutely. Overlays are there specifically for people who need
> something different from the standard portage tree. They are hardly
> difficult to use, as long as you know how to use mkdir and cp. When a
> user has a system that depends on specific versions of particular
> packages, all he has to do is copy them from /usr/portage to the
> overlay. You shouldn't even need to mess with CVS, as soon as you
> mask all newer versions of a package, you should copy its ebuild
> directory to your overlay to keep it safe. Old versions do not
> disappear as soon as a newer version comes out, unless the previous
> version had a serious security hole.
>
> mkdir -p /usr/local/portage/category
> cp -a /usr/portage/category/package /usr/local/portage/category
>
> How hard is that?

We agree on this. I use overlays extensively:

alan@nazgul /usr/portage/virtual/perl-DB_File $ ll /usr/local/portage/
total 21
drwxrwsr-x 27 root portage  880 Dec 10 12:02 ./
drwxr-xr-x 11 root root     312 Sep 24 20:19 ../
drwxrwsr-x  3 root portage   72 Nov 11 18:08 app-admin/
drwxrwsr-x  3 root portage   72 Nov 11 18:09 app-editors/
drwxrwsr-x  3 root portage   72 Nov 11 18:09 app-laptop/
drwxrwsr-x  5 root portage  120 Dec  9 20:19 app-misc/
drwxrwsr-x  3 root portage   72 Dec 10 11:30 app-text/
drwxrwsr-x  3 root portage   72 Nov 11 18:10 dev-db/
drwxrwsr-x  6 root portage  144 Nov 11 18:11 dev-libs/
drwxrwsr-x  4 root portage   96 Nov 11 18:11 dev-util/
drwxrwsr-x  2 root portage   48 Nov 11 18:56 distfiles/
drwxrwsr-x  2 root portage   48 Nov 11 18:56 eclass/
-rw-rw-r--  1 root portage  121 Jan  2  2006 header.txt
drwxrwsr-x  3 root portage   72 Nov 11 18:11 mail-client/
drwxrwsr-x  9 root portage  224 Dec  3 10:48 media-gfx/
drwxrwsr-x  8 root portage  200 Dec  9 20:45 media-libs/
drwxrwsr-x  3 root portage   72 Dec  9 20:45 media-sound/
drwxrwsr-x  5 root portage  120 Nov 11 22:26 media-video/
drwxrwsr-x  3 root portage   72 Nov 11 18:15 net-im/
drwxrwsr-x  2 root portage  168 Dec 17 19:59 profiles/
drwxrwsr-x  3 root portage   72 Nov 11 18:16 sci-calculators/
-rw-rw-r--  1 root portage 3666 Jan  2  2006 skel.ChangeLog
-rw-rw-r--  1 root root    7189 Sep 22 17:05 skel.ebuild
-rw-rw-r--  1 root portage  789 Jun  8  2004 skel.metadata.xml
drwxrwsr-x  3 root portage   72 Nov 11 18:17 sys-fs/
drwxrwsr-x  3 root portage   72 Nov 11 18:17 x11-apps/
drwxrwsr-x  8 root portage  192 Dec  9 20:37 x11-libs/
drwxrwsr-x 10 root portage  264 Dec 10 12:44 x11-misc/
drwxrwsr-x 25 root portage  712 Dec  9 23:17 x11-plugins/
drwxrwsr-x  4 root portage  104 Nov 11 18:19 x11-terms/
drwxrwsr-x  4 root portage  104 Dec 10 11:36 x11-wm/

alan
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:35:58 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > Except it's not 500MB, as you'll see by looking at the snapshots
> > directory on any Gentoo mirror. Of course, the fact that portage
> > trees for the last couple of weeks are nicely tarred up on all the
> > Gentoo mirrors makes this process pointless anyway :)  
> 
> My /usr/portage (without distfiles) is 558,560 blocks of 1k each. I
> have no idea what it will .tar.gz down to

33.1MB with bzip2, see
http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.ibiblio.org/gentoo/snapshots/

There's not much point in making your own when this is available :)

I have /usr/portage mounted on a sparse file, as per
http://gentoo-wiki.com/TIP_Speeding_up_portage#MultiPurpose_Trick
That page lists ease of backing up as a benefit, but I've never felt the
need to do that.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Windows95: <win-doz-nin-te-fiv> n.  32 bit extensions and a graphical
shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded
for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand
1 bit of competition.

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Re: [gentoo-user] working with overlays

[Benno Schulenberg]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> Overlays are there specifically for people who need
> something different from the standard portage tree. They are
> hardly difficult to use,

Not difficult, but it is clumsy:

mkdir -p /usr/local/portage/category/package
## Dont't copy all ebuilds, just the one to be tweaked:
cp /usr/portage/category/package/packag-x.y.z.ebuild /usr/local/portage/category/package/
## Copy all possible patches:
cp -a /usr/portage/category/package/files /usr/local/portage/category/package/
## Copy the new patch too:
cp package-foo-bar.patch /usr/local/portage/category/package/files/
## Edit the ebuild and insert an 'epatch ${FILESDIR}/package-foo-bar.patch' command:
vim /usr/local/portage/category/package/package-x.y.z.ebuild
[search for src_unpack(), insert extra command at end, :wq]
## Recreate digest:
ebuild /usr/local/portage/category/package/package-x.y.z.ebuild digest
## Finally, emerge the thing:
emerge -1 package

> How hard is that?

Not hard, but a nuisance.  Of course one could write a script that automates all 
those seven steps into a single command, but it has proven a bit beyond my skills 
(the finding of the category when just saying 'ovlay.sh package', not to mention 
the insertion of an epatch command).  Bo once said (or was it someone else?) he 
had such a script.  If so, Bo, please post the script.  Or better yet, push it 
upstream.  Portage knows about overlays, but doesn't have any commands to make 
working with them easy.  It really should include a command that copies the latest 
ebuild of a given package to an overlay, and inserts epatch commands for all the 
additional arguments.

Benno
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Re: [gentoo-user] working with overlays

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:09:55 +0100, Benno Schulenberg wrote:

> > Overlays are there specifically for people who need
> > something different from the standard portage tree. They are
> > hardly difficult to use,
> 
> Not difficult, but it is clumsy:
> 
> mkdir -p /usr/local/portage/category/package
> ## Dont't copy all ebuilds, just the one to be tweaked:

Unless you are really short of disk space, what's wrong with copying the
complete package directory - it makes life much simpler.

> cp /usr/portage/category/package/packag-x.y.z.ebuild /usr/local/portage/category/package/
> ## Copy all possible patches:
> cp
> -a /usr/portage/category/package/files /usr/local/portage/category/package/
> ## Copy the new patch too: cp
> package-foo-bar.patch /usr/local/portage/category/package/files/ ##
> Edit the ebuild and insert an 'epatch
> ${FILESDIR}/package-foo-bar.patch' command:
> vim /usr/local/portage/category/package/package-x.y.z.ebuild [search
> for src_unpack(), insert extra command at end, :wq] ## Recreate digest:
> ebuild /usr/local/portage/category/package/package-x.y.z.ebuild digest
> ## Finally, emerge the thing: emerge -1 package

If you just want to add a patch, you can do it with bashrc, no need to
mess with overlays: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-339019.html


> Not hard, but a nuisance.  Of course one could write a script that
> automates all those seven steps into a single command, but it has
> proven a bit beyond my skills (the finding of the category when just
> saying 'ovlay.sh package', not to mention the insertion of an epatch
> command).  Bo once said (or was it someone else?) he had such a
> script.

There's a script floating around that will copy an ebuild to your overlay
and bump its version. Adding patches is easier with bashrc. But neither
of these are related to the original question, which was about
preserving old versions. for that you only need at most one mkdir and
exactly one cp. 


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Bookmark - A means of returning to where you got lost last time.

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Re: [gentoo-user] working with overlays

[Benno Schulenberg]

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Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:09:55 +0100, Benno Schulenberg wrote:
> > mkdir -p /usr/local/portage/category/package
> > ## Dont't copy all ebuilds, just the one to be tweaked:
>
> Unless you are really short of disk space, what's wrong with
> copying the complete package directory - it makes life much
> simpler.

There's nothing wrong with it, but it makes life harder: now I must 
remember which of the ebuilds in /usr/local/portage/*/* I have 
patched and which not.  It's much easier to have only ebuilds in 
there that I've actually changed.

> If you just want to add a patch, you can do it with bashrc, no
> need to mess with overlays:
> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-339019.html

(Or http://dev.gentoo.org/~solar/portage_misc/bashrc.autopatch for 
the original.)

Well, yes, that is one way.  But mostly I do not want things to be 
autopatched: I just want to change this one version and not any 
newer one.  And I do not want to have to remember to remove 
/usr/portage/local/patches/category/package afterwards; patch, 
emerge and forget is easier.

Also, when using overlays 'emerge -pev world' will immediately show 
which packages have been patched (because coming from my overlay).  
When autopatching, one has to check /usr/portage/local/patches/ 
separately.

> There's a script floating around that will copy an ebuild to your
> overlay and bump its version.

Found it here:  http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=445501
Since this script is a bit too verbose for my taste, I've continued 
working on my own.  Using the post_src_unpack() function mentioned 
by Bo, the inserting of patches becomes pretty easy.  See the 
attached file.  Suggestions and improvements are welcome.

> But neither of these are related to the original
> question, which was about preserving old versions.

Yes, sorry for changing focus; I was reacting to this:

> > > Overlays are there specifically for people who need
> > > something different from the standard portage tree.

Benno

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Re: [gentoo-user] working with overlays

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Friday 22 December 2006 20:09, Benno Schulenberg wrote:
> Bo once said (or was it someone else?) he
> had such a script.  If so, Bo, please post the script.

You may be referring to this post:

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/164432/focus=164437

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] working with overlays

[Benno Schulenberg]

Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
> On Friday 22 December 2006 20:09, Benno Schulenberg wrote:
> > Bo once said (or was it someone else?) he
> > had such a script.  If so, Bo, please post the script.
>
> You may be referring to this post:
>
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/164432/focus=164437

Ah, yes.  Thanks.

Meanwhile my own script evolved a little further:

-----8<------------------------------------------
#!/bin/bash

# ovlay.sh  version 0.2

OVERLAY=/usr/local/portage
unset BUMP DELETE EDIT HELP NEWVERSION RENUMBER REST

if [[ -z $EDITOR ]]; then
	EDITOR="vim"
fi

for ARGUMENT in $*; do
	if [[ "$BUMP" == "take" ]]; then
		NEWVERSION="$ARGUMENT"
		BUMP="yes"
		continue
	fi
	case "$ARGUMENT" in
	"-b"|"--bump")		BUMP="take";;
	"-d"|"--delete")	DELETE="yes";;
	"-e"|"--edit")		EDIT="yes";;
	"-h"|"--help")		HELP="yes";;
	"-r"|"--renumber")	RENUMBER="yes";;
	*)			REST="$REST $ARGUMENT";;
	esac
done

# Redefine positional arguments:
set -- $REST

if [[ $HELP || -z "$1" ]]; then
	PROGRAM=${0##/[a-z]*/}
	echo "Usage:  $PROGRAM  [-e|--edit]  package_name  [patch_name...]"
	echo "        $PROGRAM  -d|--delete  package_name..."
	echo "        $PROGRAM  -b|--bump new_version_number  [-r|--renumber]  package_name"
	echo ""
	echo "Copies the latest ebuild of the specified package to the local overlay,"
	echo "and optionally allows you to bump it, insert patches, and edit it."
	exit 0
elif [[ "$BUMP" == "take" ]]; then
	echo "Specify a new version number."
	exit 2
elif [[ $RENUMBER && -z $BUMP ]]; then
	echo "Renumbering is only possible with version bumping."
	exit 2
fi

if [[ $DELETE ]]; then
	if [[ $BUMP || $EDIT || $RENUMBER ]]; then
		echo "Deletion does not go together with other options."
		exit 2
	fi
	while [[ "$1" ]]; do
		if ls -d /${OVERLAY}/*/$1 &>/dev/null; then
			rm -r /${OVERLAY}/*/$1
		else
			echo "There is no overlay for '$1'."
			exit 2
		fi
		shift
	done
	# Remove empty dirs (there must be a better way):
	ls -dl /${OVERLAY}/* | grep "x 2 root" | sed 's/.* //' |
		while read dir; do rmdir $dir; done
	exit 0
fi	

##shopt -s -o xtrace

EMERGEOUT="$(emerge -qOp $1 2>/dev/null)"
if [[ $? != 0 ]]; then
	EMERGEOUT="$(emerge -qOp =$1 2>/dev/null)"
	if [[ $? != 0 ]]; then
		echo "Package '$1' not found."
		exit 2
	fi
fi

NAMENUMBER=$(echo $EMERGEOUT | sed -e 's:^[^/]*\]::' -e 's:\[.*$::' -e 's: ::g')
CATPACK=${NAMENUMBER%%-[0-9]*}
PACKAGE=${NAMENUMBER##[a-z]*/}
FULLPATH=${OVERLAY}/${CATPACK}
NAME=${PACKAGE%%-[0-9]*}
VERSION=${PACKAGE##[a-z]*-}

if [[ $NAME != $1 && $PACKAGE != $1 ]]; then
	echo "*Internal error*: determination of package name is wrong."
	exit 4
fi

# When wanting to edit an already existing ebuild and not giving any further
# arguments, do not first recreate the ebuild, but just allow editting it:
if [[ $EDIT && -f /$FULLPATH/${PACKAGE}.ebuild && -z "$2" ]]; then
	vim /$FULLPATH/${PACKAGE}.ebuild
	ebuild ${FULLPATH}/${PACKAGE}.ebuild digest >/dev/null
	emerge -pqv =${PACKAGE}
	exit 0
fi

mkdir -p /${FULLPATH}
cp /usr/portage/${CATPACK}/${PACKAGE}.ebuild /${FULLPATH}/
cp -a /usr/portage/${CATPACK}/files /${FULLPATH}/

if [[ $BUMP ]]; then
	mv /${FULLPATH}/${PACKAGE}.ebuild /${FULLPATH}/${NAME}-${NEWVERSION}.ebuild
	if [[ $RENUMBER ]]; then
		# Renumber versioned patches:
		rename "${VERSION}" "${NEWVERSION}" /${FULLPATH}/files/*${VERSION}*
	fi
	PACKAGE=${NAME}-${NEWVERSION}
fi

# Insert any trailing arguments as patches:
if [[ "$2" ]]; then
	echo -e '\n\npost_src_unpack() { cd ${S}' >>/${FULLPATH}/${PACKAGE}.ebuild
	while [[ "$2" ]]; do
		if [[ ! -f $2 ]]; then
			echo "Patch file '$2' not found."
			exit 2
		fi
		cp $2 /${FULLPATH}/files/
		echo -e '\tepatch ${FILESDIR}/'$2 >>/${FULLPATH}/${PACKAGE}.ebuild
		shift
	done
	echo -e "}\n" >>/${FULLPATH}/${PACKAGE}.ebuild
fi

if [[ $EDIT ]]; then
	vim /$FULLPATH/${PACKAGE}.ebuild
fi

rm /$FULLPATH/files/digest-*

# Strangely this does not allow a double leading slash:
ebuild ${FULLPATH}/${PACKAGE}.ebuild digest >/dev/null

emerge -pqv =${PACKAGE}
-----8<------------------------------------------

Benno


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Cetere mi opinias ke ne ĉio tradukenda estas.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Friday 22 December 2006 10:06, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > A bin package is equally cumbersome. You will very quickly consume huge
> > amounts of disk space - at least equal to all the current packages on
> > the system plus old ones that were updated.
>
> Maybe, but they do provide an extremely useful fallback, especially for
> those of us running ~arch systems. Being able to roll back to an older,
> working version in seconds rather than minutes or hours is a definite
> benefit.

And in addition to that they only require a working tar and bash (which could 
be run from a livecd) to roll back. Without them a working gcc and 
python/portage is required too...

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 12:47:04 +0100, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:

> > Maybe, but they do provide an extremely useful fallback, especially
> > for those of us running ~arch systems. Being able to roll back to an
> > older, working version in seconds rather than minutes or hours is a
> > definite benefit.  
> 
> And in addition to that they only require a working tar and bash (which
> could be run from a livecd) to roll back. 

Oh yes, I've been there when a broken glibc update stopped the computer
booting. Untarring the old glibc package from a live CD was all I needed
to get working again.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 8: Tight slacks

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

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On Saturday 23 December 2006 08:44, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> 
wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?':
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 12:47:04 +0100, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
> > > Maybe, but they do provide an extremely useful fallback, especially
> > > for those of us running ~arch systems. Being able to roll back to an
> > > older, working version in seconds rather than minutes or hours is a
> > > definite benefit.
> > And in addition to that they only require a working tar and bash
> > (which could be run from a livecd) to roll back.
> Oh yes, I've been there when a broken glibc update stopped the computer
> booting.

I've broken multiple packages including glibc (multiple times), but was 
able to recover via busybox (which has a shell and tar built-in).

/me hugs his Gentoo.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Saturday 23 December 2006 15:44, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 12:47:04 +0100, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
> > > Maybe, but they do provide an extremely useful fallback, especially
> > > for those of us running ~arch systems. Being able to roll back to an
> > > older, working version in seconds rather than minutes or hours is a
> > > definite benefit.
> >
> > And in addition to that they only require a working tar and bash (which
> > could be run from a livecd) to roll back.
>
> Oh yes, I've been there when a broken glibc update stopped the computer
> booting. Untarring the old glibc package from a live CD was all I needed
> to get working again.

nice for you, but downgrading glibc broked my system extremly badly. 'no 
devices because of no udev' badly. 'You can't boot a livecd, because the 
kernels are too old for your sata' badly.

No fun at all...

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Benno Schulenberg]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Any custom changes you make to
> the tree are wiped out with the next --sync anyway,

Who is talking about making custom changes?  Who would make such 
changes to the main /usr/portage tree anyway?  We're talking about 
a simple user here, no extras, no frills, no adaptations.  He just 
wants to be able to keep a system working also when he syncs just 
once a year and finds that a working ebuild has been replaced with 
one that doesn't.  No huge buildup of binary packages: if the 
update was succesful, he can delete all the old versions of the 
packages for which he has duplicates.

> Trust me,

Hrm.  Why should I?

> Tell me, have you ever actually used overlays?

# ls -l /usr/local/portage/
total 0
drwxr-xr-x 3 root root  88 Dec  2 12:13 app-i18n
drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 104 Dec 20 14:33 app-office
drwxr-xr-x 3 root root  72 Nov 21 00:53 app-shells
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root  48 Jun 10  2006 games-action
drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 104 Oct  6 14:38 kde-base
drwxr-xr-x 3 root root  80 Nov 15 23:07 net-irc
drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 104 Dec  7 12:39 sys-apps
drwxr-xr-x 3 root root  72 Nov  8 16:02 sys-libs
drwxr-xr-x 3 root root  72 Dec 18 23:38 sys-process
drwxr-xr-x 3 root root  80 Aug 18 12:24 www-client
drwxr-xr-x 3 root root  72 Mar 18  2005 x11-base

Benno
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Wednesday 20 December 2006 18:16, Mark Knecht wrote:

> > In cases like that, you use portage overlays. Then the ebuild will
> > always be there until *you* delete it
>
> The problem with this view of overlays has been that I do an eix-sync
> and find that something I'm currently running been removed from
> portage - for whatever reason but mostly it's been security issues or
> the developer not wanting to maintain an old version. At that point
> it's gone. I cannot put into an overlay what I don't have.

no, it is still there. You do have it!
If you have a package installed, its ebuild is safed 
in /var/db/pkg/category/packagename just copy it.

Or you extract it from cvs.

But it is not 'gone'.


> I understand that every package is out there in some repository on the
> web. I think Neil has pointed me toward it once or twice at least. The
> problem is for a user type like me, and yes, I'm *purely* a user type,
> it's a bit beyond my skillset today to go get it and build the overlay
> myself.

it is not 'somewhere'. It is on the gentoo hp. AND your harddisk.

>
> I've mentioned this in the past but the idea has never gained
> traction. If portage is thinking about removing an ebuild from my
> machine why not just move it to some location on my machine so I've
> always got a copy of what I was running? I could build my overlay from
> what's been moved there. No pain at all. Or I can do what you suggest
> and remove it.

because there is already a copy if you installed it. Also, do you really want 
to never remove an ebuild?`How many millions should be kept? And the 
diskspace?

>
> Anyway, that's my view from user land on this subject. It is only this
> area where Gentoo is a bit of a pain for me. 

because you don't know how to use it and never informed yourself?
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Monday 18 December 2006 20:54, Grant wrote:

> I believe the great benefit of Gentoo is its flexibility, and
> flexibility is like a meta-benefit because it makes possible any
> other benefit.  What do you think makes Ubuntu the distro of the
> moment?  Is it ease-of-use?  If Gentoo focused more on ease-of-use
> aspects of the Ubuntu variety, they would attract more users and
> thereby increase the rate of growth for the software.

Ubuntu is popular because a South African Python-loving, Debian-using 
billionaire astronaut who built Thawte from the ground up put up the 
money for it. The result is that currently it's in fashion - the same 
way that mini skirts and belly rings move in and out of fashion.

This is not to distract from what Ubuntu has achieved - Mark gathered a 
fine team to kick-start Ubuntu and they built a fine product which 
people like. It's also targeted to a very different set of users than 
gentoo. We had our time of being the latest cool thing two years ago 
but don't make the mistake of thinking that because the fanboys went 
somewhere else, that there's nothing left. The real core of gentoo, the 
heart and soul of it the expertise behind it, is still there doing what 
it always did - making ebuilds.

The Linux landscape consists of about 50% of fickle idiots who chase 
after the latest greatest rainbow. We have these because there is so 
much choice out there. As a contrast, Windows doesn't have this because 
there's nothing to choose from apart from standard Windows. Now, these 
50% fanboys move around from distro to distro every 6 to 9 months if my 
observations are accurate. What does this mean? Nothing. It *could* 
mean that a new distro is well marketed and well thought of - that's 
cool in the early days. When the fans move on to something new it 
doesn't mean anything about the last cool thing, it simply means that 
the fickle crowd have something new to go "ooh, wow!" about. In other 
words, it's a reflection of a considerable user bases' fickleness, and 
no reflection of any kind on the distro.

Get over it, gentoo isn't going anywhere. It's perfectly capable of 
coping with the creaks and groans of everyday life.

alan

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Andrey Gerasimenko]

On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 20:27:20 +0300, Hemmann, Volker Armin  
<volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:

> On Monday 18 December 2006 15:47, Grant wrote:
>> I've caught a whiff or two lately that Gentoo is declining in
>> popularity amongst users and developers.  Is it all in my head?  I
>> personally still love Gentoo.
>
> there are always several phases in the life of a distri.
>
> Beginning, when it becomes 'cool' and a sudden surge in users, some time  
> of
> high popularity, a decline, and at the end, only the users who are
> really 'the right ones' for that kind of distri are left.
>

Not only 'the right ones'. There will always be some number of users who  
are evaluating the distro.

> So the 'always using the cool thing' users are gone and the 'we are  
> using what
> the cool guys were using' crowd is leaving now. So what? Are they  
> important?
> No. At some point ubuntu will suffer the same. And then the next cool  
> distro
> de jour.
>
> Some decline in user interest is normal - and a healthy process. Because  
> it
> removes the 'I use it because it is cool' and 'I use it because everybody
> else uses it' type of users.

Where can I get data on the number of Gentoo users and how it changes with  
time? Are the sync servers reporting the number of portage trees? Are the  
numbers of subscribers to Gentoo mailing lists available? Can the number  
of Gentoo developers and the number of developers per package be made  
known (there is a report somewhere in the thread that the number of  
developers increased from 60 to 300 in 3 days, but a finer time scale is  
of interest)?

As far as I understand, software developers normally provide tarballs and  
distro developers create packages. Do some developers provide packages  
themselves? If yes, what distros do they choose and how often do they  
choose Gentoo? It may be interesting to compare these numbers with the  
number of users.



-- 
Andrei Gerasimenko
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gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Bryan Østergaard]

On Tue, Dec 19, 2006 at 11:27:04AM +0300, Andrey Gerasimenko wrote:
> Where can I get data on the number of Gentoo users and how it changes with  
> time? Are the sync servers reporting the number of portage trees? Are the  
> numbers of subscribers to Gentoo mailing lists available? Can the number  
> of Gentoo developers and the number of developers per package be made  
> known (there is a report somewhere in the thread that the number of  
> developers increased from 60 to 300 in 3 days, but a finer time scale is  
> of interest)?
> 
Getting rsync statistics is tricky (if not impossible) as Gentoo only
controls a few rsync mirrors themselves. Also, many people, universities
and companies are likely running private rsync mirrors further skewing
statistics.

You can get the number of subscribers to all our mailing lists at
http://lists.gentoo.org/ml_stats.txt and some statistics on our forums
is available at https://forums.gentoo.org/statistics.php. Don't take
those statistics as any more than saying "we have lots of users" - the
statistics aren't meant to answer how many users we have and they're
probably completely wrong for answering that question.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo healthy?

[Iain Buchanan]

On Tue, 2006-12-19 at 11:27 +0300, Andrey Gerasimenko wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 20:27:20 +0300, Hemmann, Volker Armin  
> <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:

> (there is a report somewhere in the thread that the number of  
> developers increased from 60 to 300 in 3 days, but a finer time scale is  
> of interest)?

3 years actually.  60 to 300 in 3 days would be... interesting!

On Mon, 2006-12-18 at 23:23 +0100, Bryan Østergaard wrote:
> In the last 3 years that I've been a Gentoo
> developer we've grown from ~80 developers to 330+ developers. That's a
> yearly growth of 60% or more. 

cya,
-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

A motion to adjourn is always in order.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo healthy?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2006-12-18, Grant <emailgrant@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've caught a whiff or two lately that Gentoo is declining in
> popularity amongst users and developers.  Is it all in my head?  I
> personally still love Gentoo.

AFAICT, it's still a favorite of Grants everywhere....

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Hello. Just walk
                                  at               along and try NOT to think
                               visi.com            about your INTESTINES being
                                                   almost FORTY YARDS LONG!!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo healthy?

[Justin Findlay]

On AD 2006 December 19 Tuesday 05:23:10 PM +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> AFAICT, it's still a favorite of Grants everywhere....

I'll grant you that.


Justin
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo healthy?

[Grant]

> > I've caught a whiff or two lately that Gentoo is declining in
> > popularity amongst users and developers.  Is it all in my head?  I
> > personally still love Gentoo.
>
> AFAICT, it's still a favorite of Grants everywhere....
>
> --
> Grant Edwards

{OT}

Have you noticed that Grants love other Grants?  I know I do.

- Grant
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