[gentoo-user] chroot

[gentoo-user] chroot

[JimD]

Is is safe to continue to build in a chroot?  The handbook say to boot
into my new gentoo system.  However, I would like to continue to build
in the chroot (from another Gentoo 2006.0) until I have X, Fluxbox,
Firefox, Postfix, Apache, Mysql and Courier built.  This way I will
have the minimal I need in a system and can take my time to build Gnome
and everyhing else.

Thanks,

Jim
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Re: [gentoo-user] chroot

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

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On Monday 27 March 2006 17:14, JimD <Jim@keeliegirl.dyndns.org> wrote 
about '[gentoo-user] chroot':
> Is is safe to continue to build in a chroot?  The handbook say to boot
> into my new gentoo system.  However, I would like to continue to build
> in the chroot (from another Gentoo 2006.0) until I have X, Fluxbox,
> Firefox, Postfix, Apache, Mysql and Courier built.  This way I will
> have the minimal I need in a system and can take my time to build Gnome
> and everyhing else.

The only risk I can think of is trying to load kernel modules built against 
the kernel source in the chroot into the kernel that was loaded off of the 
livecd.  That's not really a risk anyway; it should just fail cleanly.

No well-behaving program should try and escape your chroot, so I'm gonna 
say it's generally safe.

There /could/ be issues if you booted from a livecd that has a different 
CHOST than you are building the system for, but if you are doing something 
that crazy, I'd hope you'd tell us in your initial email.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-user] chroot

[JimD]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 18:16:31 -0600
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:

> There /could/ be issues if you booted from a livecd that has a
> different CHOST than you are building the system for, but if you are
> doing something that crazy, I'd hope you'd tell us in your initial
> email.               ^^^^^

Errr... I actually was going to build an x86 version under my amd64
Gentoo.  I was planing on having them on different partitions for
testing.

Right now I am running Gentoo amd64 though I see some issues with not
being able to run some crap proprietary software that is binary only and
needs to load binary only 32-bit modules into the kernel.  So I was
going to have two Gentoo's installed to boot into.  One 64-bit and one
32-bit.  If I found 32-bit to be just as nice as 64-bit, I was planning
on just switching to that.

I extracted an i686 stage3 tarball into /mnt/gentoo and I was going to
build from there in chroot.  Once the initial build is done I was going
to stay in chroot and build X, fluxbox and a few other apps I need to
be running.

Jim
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Re: [gentoo-user] chroot

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

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On Monday 27 March 2006 18:30, JimD <Jim@keeliegirl.dyndns.org> wrote 
about 'Re: [gentoo-user] chroot':
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 18:16:31 -0600
>
> "Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:
> > There /could/ be issues if you booted from a livecd that has a
> > different CHOST than you are building the system for, but if you are
> > doing something that crazy, I'd hope you'd tell us in your initial
> > email.               ^^^^^
>
> Errr... I actually was going to build an x86 version under my amd64
> Gentoo.  I was planing on having them on different partitions for
> testing.

That's fine, but make sure you use "linux32 
chroot /path/to/chroot /chroot/shell" -- that'll fix up your CHOST.

How much RAM do you have?  <4G, you might just go with a full 32-bit 
userland and only a 64-bit kernel.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-user] chroot

[JimD]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 18:55:46 -0600
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:

> How much RAM do you have?  <4G, you might just go with a full 32-bit 
> userland and only a 64-bit kernel.

I have 2G.  Couldn't I do 32-bit userland and 32-bit kernel?  The
reason for a 32-bit kernel is because I need to compile the Nortel VPN
client and it is binary only crap and has 32-bit only binary modules.
Well, the code actually uses a module wrapper which I can compile
64-bit but then it barfs trying to link with the 32-bit only modules
provided.

I have not found any other way to connect to my works VPN than with the
Nortel VPN client and even that is tough to get to work.

Out of curiosity, how would I do a 32-bit userland with 64-bit kernel?
Would I just change CHOST to x86_64 when I compile the kernel?


 Jim
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Re: [gentoo-user] chroot

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

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On Monday 27 March 2006 19:20, JimD <Jim@keeliegirl.dyndns.org> wrote 
about 'Re: [gentoo-user] chroot':
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 18:55:46 -0600
>
> "Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:
> > How much RAM do you have?  <4G, you might just go with a full 32-bit
> > userland and only a 64-bit kernel.
>
> I have 2G.  Couldn't I do 32-bit userland and 32-bit kernel?

Yes, that's an option to, although with more than ~768K of ram it's not 
ideal.

> The 
> reason for a 32-bit kernel is because I need to compile the Nortel VPN
> client and it is binary only crap and has 32-bit only binary modules.

Well, that'll force a 32-bit kernel; do none of the open-source solutions 
for VPN-ing work?  Have you tried them?  I was able to get VPN-ing to a 
Cisco router working even when I was told it just wouldn't work.

> Out of curiosity, how would I do a 32-bit userland with 64-bit kernel?
> Would I just change CHOST to x86_64 when I compile the kernel?

emerge crossdev
crossdev -s2 -t x86_64
make ARCH=x86_64 CROSS_COMPILE=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-user] chroot

[JimD]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 19:56:22 -0600
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:

> Yes, that's an option to, although with more than ~768K of ram it's
> not ideal.

Why is that?  I thought 32-bit should have no problems addressing
2GB?

> emerge crossdev
> crossdev -s2 -t x86_64
> make ARCH=x86_64 CROSS_COMPILE=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-

I will go read up on crossdev.

Thanks,

Jim
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Re: [gentoo-user] chroot

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

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On Monday 27 March 2006 20:43, JimD <Jim@keeliegirl.dyndns.org> wrote 
about 'Re: [gentoo-user] chroot':
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 19:56:22 -0600
> "Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:
> > Yes, that's an option to, although with more than ~768K of ram it's
> > not ideal.
>
> Why is that?  I thought 32-bit should have no problems addressing
> 2GB?

I'm not sure about the exact technical reasons, but basically, if you want 
more than 1G total visible you have to introduce the kernel BIGMEM or 
HUGEMEM modes; both of which add a software component to each memory 
access, from what I understand.  Without them (and no other kernel 
hacking) your get a 768m/256m user/kernel split; With BIGMEM this moves up 
to a 3m/1m user/kernel split; With HUGEMEM I'm not sure if there's a split 
at all, but it slower than using the hw available in your x86_64 chipset.

Using the native, flat 40- or 48-bit addressing of 64-bit mode is much more 
efficient than any of the kernel hackery that takes place above 768M.

Plus, with a 64-bit kernel, it'll have access to the 64-bit specific 
registers. :)

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-user] chroot

[Zac Slade]

On Monday 27 March 2006 23:21, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> > "Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:
> > > Yes, that's an option to, although with more than ~768K of ram it's
> > > not ideal.
Maybe not ideal (especially on 64-bit processors) it is more than possible to 
address a lot of memory (damn I forget the numbers, I think 64G).

> > Why is that?  I thought 32-bit should have no problems addressing
> > 2GB?
Yes you can.  It will be slower than native 48-bit address modes from 64-bit 
processors, but not a large overhead at all (and the code mostly stays in 
cache).  You will need to select 3G/1G split to access the full 2GB you have 
in your system.  I have 1.5G and have to use 2G/2G to address all of mine.

> Plus, with a 64-bit kernel, it'll have access to the 64-bit specific
> registers. :)
That is a much larger benefit than most people give it credit for.  Almost 
double the registers!

-- 
Zac Slade
krakrjak@volumehost.net
ICQ:1415282 YM:krakrjak AIM:ttyp99
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Re: [gentoo-user] chroot

[Walter Dnes]

On Mon, Mar 27, 2006 at 06:14:32PM -0500, JimD wrote
> Is is safe to continue to build in a chroot?  The handbook say to boot
> into my new gentoo system.  However, I would like to continue to build
> in the chroot (from another Gentoo 2006.0) until I have X, Fluxbox,
> Firefox, Postfix, Apache, Mysql and Courier built.  This way I will
> have the minimal I need in a system and can take my time to build Gnome
> and everyhing else.

  That's not necessary.  I regularly...
  - start off with a basic text-console-only install
  - and then I fire up "emerge gimp" before heading off to work

  By the time I get home from work, Portage has pulled in and built the
approximately 40 packages necessary to get a basic X GUI running with
TWM and has built Gimp.  "rpm-hell"... what's that???  Portage rocks!!!

  The basic X support doesn't show up in /var/lib/portage/world.  It's
installed as dependancy for various applications.  Another cute trick is
to "emerge bbkeys" without first "emerge blackbox".  blackbox doesn't
show up in world either.  It's a dependancy for bbkeys.

[m3000][root][~] grep -c ^. /var/lib/portage/world
54

...yes folks, only 54 entries in world for a full-featured desktop with
a whole bunch of apps.  Like I said, all the dependancies end up as
dependancies.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
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Re: [gentoo-user] chroot

[Teresa and Dale]

Walter Dnes wrote:

>
>  That's not necessary.  I regularly...
>  - start off with a basic text-console-only install
>  - and then I fire up "emerge gimp" before heading off to work
>
>  By the time I get home from work, Portage has pulled in and built the
>approximately 40 packages necessary to get a basic X GUI running with
>TWM and has built Gimp.  "rpm-hell"... what's that???  Portage rocks!!!
>
>  The basic X support doesn't show up in /var/lib/portage/world.  It's
>installed as dependancy for various applications.  Another cute trick is
>to "emerge bbkeys" without first "emerge blackbox".  blackbox doesn't
>show up in world either.  It's a dependancy for bbkeys.
>
>[m3000][root][~] grep -c ^. /var/lib/portage/world
>54
>
>...yes folks, only 54 entries in world for a full-featured desktop with
>a whole bunch of apps.  Like I said, all the dependancies end up as
>dependancies.
>
>  
>
Always more than one way to skin a cat.  O_O  LOL  How much thought did
you put into that?

Dale
:-)
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Re: [gentoo-user] chroot

[Arnau Bria Ramírez]

El Wed, 29 Mar 2006 01:55:43 -0500
Walter Dnes dijo:

Hi!
>   That's not necessary.  I regularly...
>   - start off with a basic text-console-only install
>   - and then I fire up "emerge gimp" before heading off to work
> 
>   By the time I get home from work, Portage has pulled in and built the
> approximately 40 packages necessary to get a basic X GUI running with
> TWM and has built Gimp.  "rpm-hell"... what's that???  Portage rocks!!!
> 
>   The basic X support doesn't show up in /var/lib/portage/world.  It's
> installed as dependancy for various applications.  Another cute trick is
> to "emerge bbkeys" without first "emerge blackbox".  blackbox doesn't
> show up in world either.  It's a dependancy for bbkeys.
> 
> [m3000][root][~] grep -c ^. /var/lib/portage/world
> 54
> 
> ...yes folks, only 54 entries in world for a full-featured desktop with
> a whole bunch of apps.  Like I said, all the dependancies end up as
> dependancies.

Maybe I don't understand the benefits of your action, but what advantages do
you get doing so? I always do a emerge -uD world, so package and
its dependency... I do not care if dependency it's in world or not...

Please, could you please explain a little more your post? I'm intrigued...

Cheers! 

-- 
Arnau Bria
http://blog.emergetux.net

Por regla general, las chicas malas suelen ser las que están más buenas.
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Re: [gentoo-user] chroot

[JimD]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 01:55:43 -0500
"Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:

>   That's not necessary.  I regularly...
>   - start off with a basic text-console-only install
>   - and then I fire up "emerge gimp" before heading off to work

I need those apps installed so I can get mail and serve my personal
web site.
 
> By the time I get home from work, Portage has pulled in and built
> the approximately 40 packages necessary to get a basic X GUI running
> with TWM and has built Gimp.  "rpm-hell"... what's that???  Portage
> rocks!!!

I like that idea.  Though it doesn't always work.  For example, last
night I did an emerge -vb gnome and woke up to find that it died only
30 minutes into the build.  I was expecting to have a full gnome
desktop today, but I am still building now.
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Re: [gentoo-user] chroot

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:05:35 -0500, JimD wrote:

> I like that idea.  Though it doesn't always work.  For example, last
> night I did an emerge -vb gnome and woke up to find that it died only
> 30 minutes into the build.  I was expecting to have a full gnome
> desktop today, but I am still building now.

Why not do a Stage 3 install then emerge GRP GNOME packages? You can
have a full desktop system running in around an hour. You can customise
your USE flags and compile to suit once the system is running and in use.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Photons have mass? I didn't know they were catholic!

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Re: [gentoo-user] chroot

[Walter Dnes]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2006 at 03:44:02PM +0200, Arnau Bria Ram??rez wrote

> Maybe I don't understand the benefits of your action, but what
> advantages do you get doing so? I always do a emerge -uD world,
> so package and its dependency... I do not care if dependency it's
> in world or not...
> 
> Please, could you please explain a little more your post? I'm intrigued...

  What I said was, when doing the install...

> > - start off with a basic text-console-only install
> > - and then I fire up "emerge gimp" before heading off to work

  It's not necessary to figure out what dependancies are required.
Portage will do it for you.  You do not need to waste time figuring out
how to build X or parts of GNOME or KDE separately.  Of course, if you
want the GNOME or KDE desktop, then you'll have to install it
explicitly.  I run with Blackbox.  Only the necessary parts of GNOME and
KDE are pulled in and built.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
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