* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 18:43 ` Jarry
@ 2005-11-07 19:07 ` Qian Qiao
2005-11-07 19:52 ` kashani
2005-11-07 19:12 ` Holly Bostick
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Qian Qiao @ 2005-11-07 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 11/7/05, Jarry <jarry@gmx.net> wrote:
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=2&chap=1#doc_chap3
> ======================== <copy&paste>=====================
> Updating your System
> To keep your system in perfect shape (and not to mention install the
> latest security updates) you need to update your system regularly. Since
> Portage only checks the ebuilds in your Portage tree you first have to
> update your Portage tree.
>
> Code Listing 2: Updating the Portage tree
> # emerge --sync
>
> When your Portage tree is updated, you can update your system with
> emerge --update world
> ...
> Code Listing 16: Removing orphaned dependencies
> # emerge --update --deep --newuse world
> # emerge --depclean
> # revdep-rebuild
> ============================================================
>
> Could some of you, gentoo-wizards, be kind enough and explain, what
> is wrong in doing the things the way gentoo handbook recommends it?
> Without offensive language, if I may ask...
The idea is very simple: some upgrades are not compatible with what
you have previously installed.
A very good example will be the recent change to Apache. The
configuration files moved. A lot of people who blindly upgraded due to
either seeing but not reading, or cron jobs had their system borked.
To make things worse, they started whining, in the forums, on the ML,
and probably other places.
When maintaining a system, it is good to know what each upgrade does,
and take necessary precautions. The devs can have the ebuild to print
out warning messages, but will your cron be able to catch it?
To elabrate even more:
Redhat, suse and possibly other distro users can do cron upgrades, as
those distros never give out in-compatible upgrades to a release.
Those upgrades will wait until the next release, where everything is
upgraded, and the users will need to re-install the whole system and
possible pay more for the next release.
Things are done differently here in Gentoo, everything is dynamic, a
carefully carried out upgrade can bring a 1.4 to current, which is
amazing I have to say. Because of this, it is inevitable that some
upgrades will not be compatible. Whilst the devs made every effort to
keep you warned/informed, it is *your* responsibility to carry out the
upgrades properly. And a cron job simply isn't the proper way.
Hope I made the reason clear enough.
Finally, please don't get offended. We were not meant to do that. Try
dig out your sense of humour, :P
-- Joe
--
There are 3 kinds of people in the world:
Those who can count, and those who can't.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 19:07 ` Qian Qiao
@ 2005-11-07 19:52 ` kashani
0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: kashani @ 2005-11-07 19:52 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Qian Qiao wrote:
> To elabrate even more:
> Redhat, suse and possibly other distro users can do cron upgrades, as
> those distros never give out in-compatible upgrades to a release.
heh, if only this were truly the case. However the sentiment is still
correct, my beef being with the word *never*.
kashani
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 18:43 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 19:07 ` Qian Qiao
@ 2005-11-07 19:12 ` Holly Bostick
2005-11-07 20:04 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 20:02 ` b.n.
2005-11-07 20:38 ` kashani
3 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Holly Bostick @ 2005-11-07 19:12 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Jarry schreef:
> Holly Bostick wrote:
>
>> Qian Qiao schreef:
>>
>>> On 11/6/05, Jarry <jarry@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> All I do is running this set of commands every night from
>>>> crontab: emerge --sync emerge --update --deep --newuse world
>>>> emerge --depclean revdep-rebuild
>>>
>>> Omg, you have emerge --deep --newuse --update world as a *cron*
>>> job?
>>
>> .... and just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, comes a
>> depclean .... every night.
>>
>> Ciaran said it best:
>>
>>> I really hope you don't want your system to carry on working...
>
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=2&chap=1#doc_chap3
> ======================== <copy&paste>===================== Updating
> your System To keep your system in perfect shape (and not to mention
> install the latest security updates) you need to update your system
> regularly. Since Portage only checks the ebuilds in your Portage tree
> you first have to update your Portage tree.
>
> Code Listing 2: Updating the Portage tree # emerge --sync
>
> When your Portage tree is updated, you can update your system with
> emerge --update world ... Code Listing 16: Removing orphaned
> dependencies # emerge --update --deep --newuse world # emerge
> --depclean # revdep-rebuild
> ============================================================
>
> Could some of you, gentoo-wizards, be kind enough and explain, what
> is wrong in doing the things the way gentoo handbook recommends it?
The Gentoo Handbook does *not* recommend you do these procedures
*unattended*, the way you are doing them.
And a depclean-- which should 1) always be run with --pretend first, and
2) should be checked for sanity before running without --pretend,
certainly should not be run both unattended and unchecked, every night.
I suppose you've never seen this message:
emerge -p depclean
*** WARNING *** : DEPCLEAN CAN SERIOUSLY IMPAIR YOUR SYSTEM. USE CAUTION.
*** WARNING *** : (Cancel: CONTROL-C) -- ALWAYS VERIFY ALL PACKAGES IN THE
*** WARNING *** : CANDIDATE LIST FOR SANITY BEFORE ALLOWING DEPCLEAN TO
*** WARNING *** : UNMERGE ANY PACKAGES.
*** WARNING *** :
*** WARNING *** : USE FLAGS MAY HAVE AN EXTREME EFFECT ON THE OUTPUT.
*** WARNING *** : SOME LIBRARIES MAY BE USED BY PACKAGES BUT ARE NOT
*** WARNING *** : CONSIDERED TO BE A DEPEND DUE TO USE FLAG SETTINGS.
*** WARNING *** : emerge --update --deep --newuse world TO VERIFY
*** WARNING *** : SANITY IN THIS REGARD.
*** WARNING *** :
*** WARNING *** : Packages in the list that are desired may be added
*** WARNING *** : directly to the world file to cause them to be ignored
*** WARNING *** : by depclean and maintained in the future. BREAKAGES DUE
*** WARNING *** : TO UNMERGING AN ==IN-USE LIBRARY== MAY BE REPAIRED BY
*** WARNING *** : MERGING *** THE PACKAGE THAT COMPLAINS *** ABOUT THE
*** WARNING *** : MISSING LIBRARY.
emerge -uDN world... well, it's not so much that anything is "wrong"
with doing that every night, but ... unattended? So you have no idea
what USE flags you're using, what versions of anything you're using, and
when something else breaks (because you updated a dependency but the
program that depends on it isn't able to use the update as yet, which
happens a lot)-- you have no idea what broke the program, or why.
If you have an nVidia card, but the new drivers don't support your
particular card, and you just upgrade blindly, how are you going to know
why X doesn't work all of a sudden?
If you suddenly wake up to find that you have no disk space, because you
have installed Evolution and Evolution Data Server (which you don't use,
but there is a new USE flag for many GNOME programs-- eds-- that will
install those applications unless you turn the flag off)-- who do you
have to blame but yourself? And how are you going to determine what is
suddenly eating your disk space and prevent it from happening again?
With great power comes great responsibility, and Gentoo gives you a lot
of power to configure and manage your system. However, you are
responsible for paying attention to what is happening and keeping
everything under control.
Which you are not doing, and frankly, you're pretty lucky that something
hasn't blown up up to now.
Holly
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 19:12 ` Holly Bostick
@ 2005-11-07 20:04 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 20:31 ` Qian Qiao
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Jarry @ 2005-11-07 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Holly Bostick wrote:
> The Gentoo Handbook does *not* recommend you do these procedures
> *unattended*, the way you are doing them.
Well, gentoo says "...update your system regularly...". I thought
it means really regularly, not "when root finds some spare time
to do it". And things, which must be done on my server regularly,
I usually put into crontab...
> when something else breaks (because you updated a dependency but the
Personally, I prefer rather breaking some dependencies in my system,
over leaving some security hole in it. I am fully aware of the
possibility that some services might be unavailable, but logsentry
and monit will inform me about it...
> If you suddenly wake up to find that you have no disk space
Again, logsentry"a would inform me, I think. And 2x160GB is plenty
of space. BTW, no X/KDE/Gnome on my server...
> Which you are not doing, and frankly, you're pretty lucky that something
> hasn't blown up up to now.
That might happen, sooner o later. But still I think it is still better
than leaving some hole for uninvited visitors.
Thanks for your constructive explanation.
Jarry
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 20:04 ` Jarry
@ 2005-11-07 20:31 ` Qian Qiao
2005-11-07 20:44 ` Qian Qiao
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Qian Qiao @ 2005-11-07 20:31 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 11/7/05, Jarry <jarry@gmx.net> wrote:
> That might happen, sooner o later. But still I think it is still better
> than leaving some hole for uninvited visitors.
You'd rather having a b0rked system, than some uninvited visitors... Hmmm.
One piece of advice: turn that system off.
-- Joe
--
There are 3 kinds of people in the world:
Those who can count, and those who can't.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 20:04 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 20:31 ` Qian Qiao
@ 2005-11-07 20:44 ` Qian Qiao
2005-11-07 21:09 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 21:10 ` Holly Bostick
2005-11-07 21:27 ` Jeff Smelser
3 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Qian Qiao @ 2005-11-07 20:44 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 11/7/05, Jarry <jarry@gmx.net> wrote:
> Personally, I prefer rather breaking some dependencies in my system,
> over leaving some security hole in it. I am fully aware of the
> possibility that some services might be unavailable, but logsentry
> and monit will inform me about it...
If your server a production server?
Tell me how log entries are gonna inform you if the init scripts can't
even start the service?
Maintain servers includes maintaining *usability* as well as security.
Some of the updates aren't security updates, they are merely feature
additions, might in fact introduce more security issues.
Furthermore, if you can't even maintain usability of the system, I
don't see how or why you need to keep it secure, that system won't
work anyways.
Let me just give you one more example:
A upgrade to the PAM library might require you to restart sshd,
otherwise new connections may not auth. That information will be
printed on the screen after the new PAM library is merged. However
that will not appear in the emerge.log. Tell me, how you are gonna
know that you should restart your sshd if that upgrade was carried out
by a cron job. To make things worse, just imagine, that system is a
remote system, and is maintained through ssh. Pfff.
Anyway, good luck with being an admin.
-- Joe
--
There are 3 kinds of people in the world:
Those who can count, and those who can't.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 20:44 ` Qian Qiao
@ 2005-11-07 21:09 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 21:49 ` Qian Qiao
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Jarry @ 2005-11-07 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Qian Qiao wrote:
> Tell me how log entries are gonna inform you if the init scripts can't
> even start the service?
I'm not sure, probably in ~30min I would get email, if completely
broken server would not make it impossible. I thought either monit
or logsentry would notice it and inform me...
> Let me just give you one more example:
> A upgrade to the PAM library might require you to restart sshd,
Well, this will be probably criticised, but after every upgrade
(independently of what was really updated) I restart sshd, named,
sendmail and apache, even with old config-files. I thought that way
not only my system is updated, but also new versions of those
daemons are running. Rest (I thought) is not important...
> Anyway, good luck with being an admin.
I know, I'm far from being it. But thanks for answer...
Jarry
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 21:09 ` Jarry
@ 2005-11-07 21:49 ` Qian Qiao
2005-11-07 21:51 ` Qian Qiao
2005-11-07 22:57 ` A. Khattri
0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Qian Qiao @ 2005-11-07 21:49 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 11/7/05, Jarry <jarry@gmx.net> wrote:
<trim>
doh, everything is trimmed. :D
</trim>
Let's leave the brave, dumb, ignorance, arrogance out, and concentrate
on maintaining a server, especially production servers with clients.
First of all, I should point out that maintaining a server is far more
than just keeping everything up to date, it is more about providing
all of the clients consistent and stable services.
To provide such services of such quality, down times should be kept
minimal. Thus, b0rked system with no security holes mean no value to
clients as they need a working system.
Also, major changes should be kept minimal, some software make major
configuration file changes once in a while, and that should be
avoided. Having your clients to change their file/code to match your
setting will leave you with unhappy clients who may just leave.
System restarts, hmmm, a few times in a year is probably a lot. Some
software restarts should also be avoided. For example, a webserver
restart will cause all http clients to lose their session, and all the
data stored in the session. There may well be important data in the
session, thus doing so is just irresponsible.
So now the ultimate question: when should updates by applied to the
system, and what shall be applied.
1. Security fixes. Gentoo provides emerge --security, which prints out
security advices based on the packages installed on your system. You
should keep an eye on that, rather than upgrading everything.
2. Popular feature request. If most of you clients request MySQL 4.1
while you are running 4.0, you should probably upgrade.
3. Bug fixes. For example, a few clients run into a well known bug in
PHP3, you should probably take the opportunity to upgrade it to PHP4.
As to how there upgrades shall be applied:
1. Upgrades that are transparent can be applied immediately.
Transparent means no configuration change, no service interruption
expected.
2. Inform everyone about the upgrades that will cause down time, and
give them an estimated time of when these upgrades are applied, and
roughly how long the down time is expected.
3. Schedule maintenance slots.
You clients should always know what to expect from you.
With all the above considerations in mind, I'm pretty sure that a cron
job for the updates is a brave yet not-so-bright move, and should be
avoided.
BTW, the above short guild is in no way official or complete, it is
just my personal experience. There maybe other people who wants to
amend, or there may well be special considerations from your side.
-- Joe
--
There are 3 kinds of people in the world:
Those who can count, and those who can't.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 20:04 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 20:31 ` Qian Qiao
2005-11-07 20:44 ` Qian Qiao
@ 2005-11-07 21:10 ` Holly Bostick
2005-11-07 21:38 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 21:27 ` Jeff Smelser
3 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Holly Bostick @ 2005-11-07 21:10 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Jarry schreef:
> Holly Bostick wrote:
>
>
>> The Gentoo Handbook does *not* recommend you do these procedures
>> *unattended*, the way you are doing them.
>
>
> Well, gentoo says "...update your system regularly...". I thought it
> means really regularly, not "when root finds some spare time to do
> it". And things, which must be done on my server regularly, I usually
> put into crontab...
Hmmm, interesting concept. What else does root have to do but administer
the server?
Why exactly does root, whose job is to run the server, have no time to
schedule the actual running of the server, which includes:
checking whether updates are available;
checking whether updates are *appropriate*;
making sure that available, appropriate updates don't interrupt the
running of the server for which root is responsible?
If it was a desktop system, I could understand. I hate to take time out
from a good run of AisleRiot to do a glsa-check, myself (and why isn't
*that* one of your cron jobs?).
But a server is something else entirely.
>
>
>> when something else breaks (because you updated a dependency but
>> the
>
>
> Personally, I prefer rather breaking some dependencies in my system,
> over leaving some security hole in it. I am fully aware of the
> possibility that some services might be unavailable, but logsentry
> and monit will inform me about it...
You would rather have your server not work than have a security hole in it.
What difference does it make if there's a security hole if the server
itself doesn't work?
Not that I'm advocating security holes, but this just doesn't make sense
(the security hole in X package can't be exploited if the program
segfaults when you try to start it because its dependencies are broken).
>
>
>> If you suddenly wake up to find that you have no disk space
>
>
> Again, logsentry"a would inform me, I think. And 2x160GB is
> plenty of space. BTW, no X/KDE/Gnome on my server...
So you have time to fix the errors, but not time to prevent them before
they occur?
And of course, somehow you are going to be able to fix the errors
without taking the server down, without any interruption to your users?
I don't get it, but more power to you.
>
>
>> Which you are not doing, and frankly, you're pretty lucky that
>> something hasn't blown up up to now.
>
>
> That might happen, sooner o later. But still I think it is still
> better than leaving some hole for uninvited visitors.
The invited vistors (ordinary users of the server) are on their own,
apparently.
Holly
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 21:10 ` Holly Bostick
@ 2005-11-07 21:38 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 22:11 ` kashani
2005-11-07 22:26 ` Jeff Smelser
0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Jarry @ 2005-11-07 21:38 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Holly Bostick wrote:
> Hmmm, interesting concept. What else does root have to do but administer
> the server?
Well, in this case it is not some serious server, just for fun&play.
And sometimes I really do not have time to take care of it for a couple
of days, week or two. I have a different job...
> What difference does it make if there's a security hole if the server
> itself doesn't work?
Let us say, if server is down, it can not be misused for further
attacks, spam-sending, ddos, etc. That could easily happen, if someone
gained root-access (I think)...
> So you have time to fix the errors, but not time to prevent them before
> they occur?
As I said previously: fixing errors later is my problem. But if I do
not close some security leak, it would be then problem for me and maybe
someone else too. There are too many unpatched and vulnerable computers
on the net, I did not want to cotribute to it...
But there is definitely something in what you are saying. Maybe I will
think over it again...
Jarry
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 21:38 ` Jarry
@ 2005-11-07 22:11 ` kashani
2005-11-07 22:26 ` Jeff Smelser
1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: kashani @ 2005-11-07 22:11 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Jarry wrote:
> As I said previously: fixing errors later is my problem. But if I do
> not close some security leak, it would be then problem for me and maybe
> someone else too. There are too many unpatched and vulnerable computers
> on the net, I did not want to cotribute to it...
>
> But there is definitely something in what you are saying. Maybe I will
> think over it again...
Your assumption works if your only line of defense is the software
itself. This is why your smart security book recommends a layered
defense such as a firewall, system acls or capabilities, dropping
privileges, chrooting services, configurations done with security in
mind, selinux, stack protection, etc. Ideally you'd be able to schedule
an update in the window of your choosing because your other defenses are
in place protecting you until you can update your software in a
controlled sensible way without downtime. It's not always the case, but
the odds are much more in your favor in this scenerio.
kashani
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 21:38 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 22:11 ` kashani
@ 2005-11-07 22:26 ` Jeff Smelser
1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Smelser @ 2005-11-07 22:26 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 747 bytes --]
On Monday 07 November 2005 03:38 pm, Jarry wrote:
> As I said previously: fixing errors later is my problem. But if I do
> not close some security leak, it would be then problem for me and maybe
> someone else too. There are too many unpatched and vulnerable computers
> on the net, I did not want to cotribute to it...
>
> But there is definitely something in what you are saying. Maybe I will
> think over it again...
I am curious, what program recently has been biting you that your so worried
about remote attackers?
Besides that, if you have your firewall and so forth set right, this should
keep the problem pretty limited.. Considering its a play machine, what would
you really need open to the entire world?
Jeff
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 20:04 ` Jarry
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2005-11-07 21:10 ` Holly Bostick
@ 2005-11-07 21:27 ` Jeff Smelser
2005-11-07 21:52 ` Holly Bostick
3 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Smelser @ 2005-11-07 21:27 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]
On Monday 07 November 2005 02:04 pm, Jarry wrote:
> > Which you are not doing, and frankly, you're pretty lucky that something
> > hasn't blown up up to now.
>
> That might happen, sooner o later. But still I think it is still better
> than leaving some hole for uninvited visitors.
> Thanks for your constructive explanation.
Yeah, but your not restarting anything anyway, so your point is moot.. The
service is still running with a big fat hole in it regardless..
Jeff
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 21:27 ` Jeff Smelser
@ 2005-11-07 21:52 ` Holly Bostick
2005-11-07 22:23 ` Jeff Smelser
2005-11-07 22:56 ` Billy Holmes
0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Holly Bostick @ 2005-11-07 21:52 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Jeff Smelser schreef:
> On Monday 07 November 2005 02:04 pm, Jarry wrote:
>
>>> Which you are not doing, and frankly, you're pretty lucky that
>>> something hasn't blown up up to now.
>>
>> That might happen, sooner o later. But still I think it is still
>> better than leaving some hole for uninvited visitors. Thanks for
>> your constructive explanation.
>
>
> Yeah, but your not restarting anything anyway, so your point is
> moot.. The service is still running with a big fat hole in it
> regardless..
No, no, Jeff, that is apparently where you are wrong:
Jarry schreef:
> Well, this will be probably criticised, but after every upgrade
> (independently of what was really updated) I restart sshd, named,
> sendmail and apache, even with old config-files. I thought that way
> not only my system is updated, but also new versions of those daemons
> are running. Rest (I thought) is not important...
So you see, the mail server, ssh server and web server *are* restarted.
Whether or not they were the services actually updated (or needing
update), and without regard to
whether the change required an updated *configuration* file, which--
since etc-update was not run-- did not take place. But we all know that
fixing a security hole never has any relationship to the application's
config files, ever. Don't we? And of course restarting those four
servers, even with old config files, constitutes a full and complete
update, patching all relevant security holes covered by the emerge -uDN
world. *Ob*viously. Because *ob*viously, emerge -uDNworld updates to the
version of whatever containing the patch for the hole. No matter what
your ACCEPT_KEYWORDS is set to, no matter what USE flags are enabled.
I mean, *really*, Jeff. What *are* you thinking? Why on earth should we
need to pay attention to any of that stuff? Don't you know Gentoo
manages your server(s) for you? (Wonder why it takes two days to a week
to install, if it does all this automatic management so well?!)
I hope you see how mistaken you are and are duly chastened.
Holly
;-)
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 21:52 ` Holly Bostick
@ 2005-11-07 22:23 ` Jeff Smelser
2005-11-07 22:56 ` Billy Holmes
1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Smelser @ 2005-11-07 22:23 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1886 bytes --]
On Monday 07 November 2005 03:52 pm, Holly Bostick wrote:
> No, no, Jeff, that is apparently where you are wrong:
Heh, I missed this tidbit..
> Jarry schreef:
> > Well, this will be probably criticised, but after every upgrade
> > (independently of what was really updated) I restart sshd, named,
> > sendmail and apache, even with old config-files. I thought that way
> > not only my system is updated, but also new versions of those daemons
> > are running. Rest (I thought) is not important...
>
> So you see, the mail server, ssh server and web server *are* restarted.
>
> Whether or not they were the services actually updated (or needing
> update), and without regard to
> whether the change required an updated *configuration* file, which--
> since etc-update was not run-- did not take place. But we all know that
> fixing a security hole never has any relationship to the application's
> config files, ever. Don't we? And of course restarting those four
> servers, even with old config files, constitutes a full and complet
> update, patching all relevant security holes covered by the emerge -uDN
> world. *Ob*viously. Because *ob*viously, emerge -uDNworld updates to the
> version of whatever containing the patch for the hole. No matter what
> your ACCEPT_KEYWORDS is set to, no matter what USE flags are enabled.
>
> I mean, *really*, Jeff. What *are* you thinking? Why on earth should we
> need to pay attention to any of that stuff? Don't you know Gentoo
> manages your server(s) for you? (Wonder why it takes two days to a week
> to install, if it does all this automatic management so well?!)
Heh, well, I stand corrected. I am sure we should all be doing this, because
its obviously the right thing to do..
Well, i have been bitten on upgrades I was watching, he will be bit
eventually, then he will come crying here.
Jff
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 21:52 ` Holly Bostick
2005-11-07 22:23 ` Jeff Smelser
@ 2005-11-07 22:56 ` Billy Holmes
1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Billy Holmes @ 2005-11-07 22:56 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Holly Bostick wrote:
> world. *Ob*viously. Because *ob*viously, emerge -uDNworld updates to the
> version of whatever containing the patch for the hole. No matter what
> your ACCEPT_KEYWORDS is set to, no matter what USE flags are enabled.
I also wanted to add something: sometimes patches are submitted and they
don't fix the entire problem. Sometimes, they are just bad patches that
somehow made it into the release. Humans after all control the versions,
push the changes, and update keywords. We make mistakes. Computer just
propogate that mistake at lightening speeds.
So in a production environment, to update immediately is not always the
best advice. There should always be some $delay between when the patch
is released, and it's applied to production. $delay being defined by
your local policies, commitments, and need to CYA.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 18:43 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 19:07 ` Qian Qiao
2005-11-07 19:12 ` Holly Bostick
@ 2005-11-07 20:02 ` b.n.
2005-11-07 19:06 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 20:38 ` kashani
3 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: b.n. @ 2005-11-07 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=2&chap=1#doc_chap3
> ======================== <copy&paste>=====================
> Updating your System
> To keep your system in perfect shape (and not to mention install the
> latest security updates) you need to update your system regularly. Since
> Portage only checks the ebuilds in your Portage tree you first have to
> update your Portage tree.
>
> Code Listing 2: Updating the Portage tree
> # emerge --sync
>
> When your Portage tree is updated, you can update your system with
> emerge --update world
> ...
> Code Listing 16: Removing orphaned dependencies
> # emerge --update --deep --newuse world
> # emerge --depclean
> # revdep-rebuild
> ============================================================
>
> Could some of you, gentoo-wizards, be kind enough and explain, what
> is wrong in doing the things the way gentoo handbook recommends it?
> Without offensive language, if I may ask...
Jarry is quite arrogant (why in the hell should we people use offensive
language with you, unless you give us occasion to do it? and, hey, a bit
of self-irony should help), but I was wondering too why all this fuss
about updating regularly the system.
I update by hand and I always see what's going on with the help of
--pretend, to see if there's some nasty issue. But I --deep --update my
desktop about twice a week and nothing bad is happening here.
m.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 20:02 ` b.n.
@ 2005-11-07 19:06 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 20:26 ` b.n.
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Jarry @ 2005-11-07 19:06 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
b.n. wrote:
> Jarry is quite arrogant...
Could you please be more specific? Who did I insulted, or what
makes you think I am arrogant? Copy&paste please, if you find
something...
Jarry
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 19:06 ` Jarry
@ 2005-11-07 20:26 ` b.n.
2005-11-07 19:49 ` Jarry
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: b.n. @ 2005-11-07 20:26 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Jarry wrote:
> b.n. wrote:
>
>
>>Jarry is quite arrogant...
>
>
> Could you please be more specific? Who did I insulted, or what
> makes you think I am arrogant? Copy&paste please, if you find
> something...
Just read the three lines quoted above and you'll find what I mean.
m.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 20:26 ` b.n.
@ 2005-11-07 19:49 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 20:44 ` Nick Rout
2005-11-07 21:26 ` b.n.
0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Jarry @ 2005-11-07 19:49 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
b.n. wrote:
> Jarry wrote:
>> b.n. wrote:
>>> Jarry is quite arrogant...
>>
>> Could you please be more specific? Who did I insulted, or what
>> makes you think I am arrogant? Copy&paste please, if you find
>> something...
>
> Just read the three lines quoted above and you'll find what I mean.
Yes, I have read it. Two question and one request. Polite and
respectful. Does that make me arrogant? Well, I knew my english is
far from being perfect, bud did not know it is actually THAT bad...
BTW, I think it could not be reason for you calling me arrogant,
because I posted it AFTER your statement...
> m.
Strange, when someone who signs his emails with just one character
wants to give me lessons about being arrogant...
Jarry
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 19:49 ` Jarry
@ 2005-11-07 20:44 ` Nick Rout
2005-11-07 21:26 ` b.n.
1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Nick Rout @ 2005-11-07 20:44 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:49:40 +0100
Jarry wrote:
> b.n. wrote:
> > Jarry wrote:
> >> b.n. wrote:
> >>> Jarry is quite arrogant...
> >>
> >> Could you please be more specific? Who did I insulted, or what
> >> makes you think I am arrogant? Copy&paste please, if you find
> >> something...
> >
> > Just read the three lines quoted above and you'll find what I mean.
>
> Yes, I have read it. Two question and one request. Polite and
> respectful. Does that make me arrogant? Well, I knew my english is
> far from being perfect, bud did not know it is actually THAT bad...
>
> BTW, I think it could not be reason for you calling me arrogant,
> because I posted it AFTER your statement...
>
> > m.
>
> Strange, when someone who signs his emails with just one character
> wants to give me lessons about being arrogant...
>
> Jarry
Frankly back off or bugger off.
--
Nick Rout <nick@rout.co.nz>
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 19:49 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 20:44 ` Nick Rout
@ 2005-11-07 21:26 ` b.n.
2005-11-07 20:57 ` Jarry
1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: b.n. @ 2005-11-07 21:26 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
>>Just read the three lines quoted above and you'll find what I mean.
>
>
> Yes, I have read it. Two question and one request.
True.
> Polite and
> respectful.
They don't look that much.
Arrogance is not about insulting. It is something much more subtle, but
not less evident.
> Does that make me arrogant? Well, I knew my english is
> far from being perfect, bud did not know it is actually THAT bad...
Your english is OK, AFAIK (I'm not a native english speaker too, so I
can't be 100% sure). It's the *tone* you use that's not good.
> BTW, I think it could not be reason for you calling me arrogant,
> because I posted it AFTER your statement...
Oh, this was just such a shiny bright and unwillingly ironic example
that I couldn't resist.
See, the simple fact you're biting this little flamebait so much means
you're an arrogant at my eyes. If you were not so permalous, you would
have told/added something like "anyway please sorry if I looked
arrogant, I didn't meant to". Then we could have agreed.
Fact is, you're asking questions here and people is going to help you,
and you act like you're always right and other people are idiots.
For example (you wanted examples, so I give you):
">which version of portage you are running!
Do you really think it is important? Because since I'm using Gentoo,
I do not take care about versions, portage does it instead of me."
Here you seem to imply that the original poster, by caring about Portage
versions, is a hopeless dumb, while you're a loooot smarter. Note: you
*SEEM* to imply. You can scream here and there you weren't meaning it.
But that's what I read through your words.
"Satisfied? Carry on, if it makes you feel better...
Anyway, I'll not fight back to this primitive insultation. It is
under my level, and imho under level of this mailing list too..."
Taking a simple joke this seriously doesn't make you look superior. In
fact you look much more childish than the original poster. If you were
really a superior intelligence, you would have at least asked yourself
*why* so much people were laughing at your post.
"Could some of you, gentoo-wizards, be kind enough and explain, what
is wrong in doing the things the way gentoo handbook recommends it?
Without offensive language, if I may ask..."
Same as above. You don't ask yourself what can be wrong in your
assumptions. You copy-and-paste the manual (implicitly stating we're all
morons that have never read it) and you seem to dare us to explain how
can we dare laugh at this autority. Moreover, you imply you're
*absolutely certain* to do what the Gentoo handbook is recommending,
when you have been answered you overlooked a VERY basic detail, and
that's all the fuss was about.
Summing up, you don't give us the fuzzy warm feeling of a user that
sincerely and gently wants help. You seem to feel always the need to
defend yourself and you seem to lack any sense of humour about yourself.
That's all.
>>m.
>
>
> Strange, when someone who signs his emails with just one character
> wants to give me lessons about being arrogant...
?
And that's two characters, BTW (a letter and a dot :P )
m.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 21:26 ` b.n.
@ 2005-11-07 20:57 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 21:22 ` Qian Qiao
2005-11-07 22:48 ` b.n.
0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Jarry @ 2005-11-07 20:57 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
b.n. wrote:
>> Polite and respectful.
> They don't look that much.
Well, I always thought that using the words like "please" is a sign
of respect to others. On the other side, some of replies included
phrases like "...it bloody matters!..." or "how the hell would we
know...!" or "Jarry needs variable BRAVE_YET_DUMB=1". Although
such words do not sound good to me, I would never dare to say their
authors are arrogant...
> have told/added something like "anyway please sorry if I looked
> arrogant, I didn't meant to". Then we could have agreed.
Not problem for me, just did not find any reason to do it...
But what about those who do not look arrogant, but are arrogant?
> For example (you wanted examples, so I give you):
> ">which version of portage you are running!
> Do you really think it is important? Because since I'm using Gentoo,
> I do not take care about versions, portage does it instead of me."
I asked the question seriously. When I switched to gentoo, everybody
told me "...c'mon, come'n'try gentoo, there are no versions like in
redhat, suse or debian, it is always updated!...". Suddenly there are
versions...
(BTW, I wrote I was impressed by portage speed last week, during
upgrade. It means I could not have old portage version)
> Taking a simple joke this seriously doesn't make you look superior. In
> fact you look much more childish than the original poster. If you were
> really a superior intelligence, you would have at least asked yourself
> *why* so much people were laughing at your post.
Aha, now I understand! I should have probably answer:
AND_YOU_ARE_EVEN_BIGGER_FOOL_LOL=1
That would have been probably even better simple joke, huh? :-)
<now THIS is sarcasm from me, I would never write something like that>
> You copy-and-paste the manual (implicitly stating we're all
> morons that have never read it)
I copy&pasted it to let you know where I got that idea...
>> Strange, when someone who signs his emails with just one character
>> wants to give me lessons about being arrogant...
> ?
> And that's two characters, BTW (a letter and a dot :P )
> m.
OK, that's "cool", I will use it from now! :-)
J.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 20:57 ` Jarry
@ 2005-11-07 21:22 ` Qian Qiao
2005-11-07 21:43 ` Mark
2005-11-07 22:37 ` John Jolet
2005-11-07 22:48 ` b.n.
1 sibling, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Qian Qiao @ 2005-11-07 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 11/7/05, Jarry <jarry@gmx.net> wrote:
> b.n. wrote:
>
> >> Polite and respectful.
> > They don't look that much.
>
> Well, I always thought that using the words like "please" is a sign
> of respect to others. On the other side, some of replies included
> phrases like "...it bloody matters!..." or "how the hell would we
> know...!" or "Jarry needs variable BRAVE_YET_DUMB=1". Although
> such words do not sound good to me, I would never dare to say their
> authors are arrogant...
You are just brave and dumb. Take a look at how many people explained
or attempted to explain why running upgrades as cron jobs is a dumb
thing do to, and you simply neglected them. To make things worse, you
stated: "I prefer rather breaking some dependencies in my system, over
leaving some security hole in it". Which is plain bs.
> I asked the question seriously. When I switched to gentoo, everybody
> told me "...c'mon, come'n'try gentoo, there are no versions like in
> redhat, suse or debian, it is always updated!...". Suddenly there are
> versions...
>
> (BTW, I wrote I was impressed by portage speed last week, during
> upgrade. It means I could not have old portage version)
As well as brave and dumb, you are also ignorant. There are versions,
and it is clearly mentioned in the documentations. It's always
up-to-date doesn't mean there are no versions. There are no
*releases*, but there are versions.
Back to the arrogance bit, people give you advices or suggestions, in
the hope that you could maintain your system better, you are perfectly
entitled to stick to your no-so-bright way, but you can't stop us
thinking that defending those *wrong* ways are somewhat arrogant.
Again, good luck with your server maintenance.
-- Joe
--
There are 3 kinds of people in the world:
Those who can count, and those who can't.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 21:22 ` Qian Qiao
@ 2005-11-07 21:43 ` Mark
2005-11-07 22:37 ` John Jolet
1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Mark @ 2005-11-07 21:43 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
OK, can y'all just drop it? Filling my inbox with bickering is not why
I subscribe to such a fine technical list
On 11/7/05, Qian Qiao <qian.qiao@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/7/05, Jarry <jarry@gmx.net> wrote:
> > b.n. wrote:
> >
> > >> Polite and respectful.
> > > They don't look that much.
> >
> > Well, I always thought that using the words like "please" is a sign
> > of respect to others. On the other side, some of replies included
> > phrases like "...it bloody matters!..." or "how the hell would we
> > know...!" or "Jarry needs variable BRAVE_YET_DUMB=1". Although
> > such words do not sound good to me, I would never dare to say their
> > authors are arrogant...
>
> You are just brave and dumb. Take a look at how many people explained
> or attempted to explain why running upgrades as cron jobs is a dumb
> thing do to, and you simply neglected them. To make things worse, you
> stated: "I prefer rather breaking some dependencies in my system, over
> leaving some security hole in it". Which is plain bs.
>
> > I asked the question seriously. When I switched to gentoo, everybody
> > told me "...c'mon, come'n'try gentoo, there are no versions like in
> > redhat, suse or debian, it is always updated!...". Suddenly there are
> > versions...
> >
> > (BTW, I wrote I was impressed by portage speed last week, during
> > upgrade. It means I could not have old portage version)
>
> As well as brave and dumb, you are also ignorant. There are versions,
> and it is clearly mentioned in the documentations. It's always
> up-to-date doesn't mean there are no versions. There are no
> *releases*, but there are versions.
>
> Back to the arrogance bit, people give you advices or suggestions, in
> the hope that you could maintain your system better, you are perfectly
> entitled to stick to your no-so-bright way, but you can't stop us
> thinking that defending those *wrong* ways are somewhat arrogant.
>
> Again, good luck with your server maintenance.
>
> -- Joe
>
> --
> There are 3 kinds of people in the world:
> Those who can count, and those who can't.
>
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
--
Mark
[unwieldy legal disclaimer would go here - feel free to type your own]
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 21:22 ` Qian Qiao
2005-11-07 21:43 ` Mark
@ 2005-11-07 22:37 ` John Jolet
2005-11-07 21:47 ` A. Khattri
1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: John Jolet @ 2005-11-07 22:37 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Monday 07 November 2005 15:22, Qian Qiao wrote:
> On 11/7/05, Jarry <jarry@gmx.net> wrote:
> > b.n. wrote:
> > >> Polite and respectful.
> > >
> > > They don't look that much.
> >
> > Well, I always thought that using the words like "please" is a sign
> > of respect to others. On the other side, some of replies included
> > phrases like "...it bloody matters!..." or "how the hell would we
> > know...!" or "Jarry needs variable BRAVE_YET_DUMB=1". Although
> > such words do not sound good to me, I would never dare to say their
> > authors are arrogant...
>
> You are just brave and dumb. Take a look at how many people explained
> or attempted to explain why running upgrades as cron jobs is a dumb
> thing do to, and you simply neglected them. To make things worse, you
> stated: "I prefer rather breaking some dependencies in my system, over
> leaving some security hole in it". Which is plain bs.
At the risk of of adding to the flames here, perhaps an example is in
order.... I once worked as a sysadmin for a guy who firmly believed in
security. To prevent any security holes from lingering, he did an apt-get
update out of cron every friday night....on production servers (we were
running debian). The instance of us having to spend monday fixing what broke
friday was about 10%. Unacceptable on a server. I don't even do that on my
test systems.
>
> > I asked the question seriously. When I switched to gentoo, everybody
> > told me "...c'mon, come'n'try gentoo, there are no versions like in
> > redhat, suse or debian, it is always updated!...". Suddenly there are
> > versions...
> >
> > (BTW, I wrote I was impressed by portage speed last week, during
> > upgrade. It means I could not have old portage version)
>
> As well as brave and dumb, you are also ignorant. There are versions,
> and it is clearly mentioned in the documentations. It's always
> up-to-date doesn't mean there are no versions. There are no
> *releases*, but there are versions.
>
> Back to the arrogance bit, people give you advices or suggestions, in
> the hope that you could maintain your system better, you are perfectly
> entitled to stick to your no-so-bright way, but you can't stop us
> thinking that defending those *wrong* ways are somewhat arrogant.
>
> Again, good luck with your server maintenance.
>
> -- Joe
>
> --
> There are 3 kinds of people in the world:
> Those who can count, and those who can't.
--
John Jolet
Your On-Demand IT Department
512-762-0729
www.jolet.net
john@jolet.net
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 22:37 ` John Jolet
@ 2005-11-07 21:47 ` A. Khattri
2005-11-07 22:32 ` Qian Qiao
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: A. Khattri @ 2005-11-07 21:47 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Mon, 7 Nov 2005, John Jolet wrote:
> At the risk of of adding to the flames here, perhaps an example is in
> order.... I once worked as a sysadmin for a guy who firmly believed in
> security. To prevent any security holes from lingering, he did an apt-get
> update out of cron every friday night....on production servers (we were
> running debian). The instance of us having to spend monday fixing what broke
> friday was about 10%. Unacceptable on a server. I don't even do that on my
> test systems.
I can understand the paranoia of having your servers hacked but there is
usually a middle ground that works reasonably well. I run a script nightly
via cron but all it does is do a portage sync and then *prebuild* binary
packages for any important updates before sending an email in them
morning. I have to apply the updates manually but this gives you a chance
to test and/or rollback if need be. The only downside is that manual
intervention is required - can't have everything I suppose.
--
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 21:47 ` A. Khattri
@ 2005-11-07 22:32 ` Qian Qiao
0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Qian Qiao @ 2005-11-07 22:32 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 11/7/05, A. Khattri <ajai@bway.net> wrote:
> I can understand the paranoia of having your servers hacked but there is
> usually a middle ground that works reasonably well. I run a script nightly
> via cron but all it does is do a portage sync and then *prebuild* binary
> packages for any important updates before sending an email in them
> morning. I have to apply the updates manually but this gives you a chance
> to test and/or rollback if need be. The only downside is that manual
> intervention is required - can't have everything I suppose.
Unless we have a tool with enough intelligence to read the message
spit out by the ebuild during the upgrade, and handle them correctly,
I'd guess system administration is still a manual job.
I do have cron jobs, but what they do are: emerge --sync, emerge
--security. and do monthly/nightly backup.
For software upgrades, I do them by hand, and most of the time,
one-by-one. Just to ensure everything is working as intended.
Hmmm, working as intended, no one here play WoW on EU realms right, :P
-- Joe
--
There are 3 kinds of people in the world:
Those who can count, and those who can't.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 20:57 ` Jarry
2005-11-07 21:22 ` Qian Qiao
@ 2005-11-07 22:48 ` b.n.
2005-11-07 21:55 ` Jarry
1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: b.n. @ 2005-11-07 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
>>>Polite and respectful.
>>
>>They don't look that much.
>
>
> Well, I always thought that using the words like "please" is a sign
> of respect to others.
Sometimes it looks more like sarcasm.
Yours is a bit "autistic" way to deal with human language. It is not
like using "please" in a sentence means an automatic grep turns on a
RESPECTFUL_LANGUAGE=1 flag in response.
> On the other side, some of replies included
> phrases like "...it bloody matters!..." or "how the hell would we
> know...!" or "Jarry needs variable BRAVE_YET_DUMB=1". Although
> such words do not sound good to me, I would never dare to say their
> authors are arrogant...
These people are treating you with confidence. They're kidding with you
because they assume you're understanding we're just kidding and we're
all respectful of each other, at a deeper level. They assume you have a
life and you don't have to feel hurt by every little single humour is
done at you.
>>">which version of portage you are running!
>>Do you really think it is important? Because since I'm using Gentoo,
>>I do not take care about versions, portage does it instead of me."
>
>
> I asked the question seriously. When I switched to gentoo, everybody
> told me "...c'mon, come'n'try gentoo, there are no versions like in
> redhat, suse or debian, it is always updated!...". Suddenly there are
> versions...
Ehm... They were asking about a Portage version, not a Gentoo version.
It's TRUE you don't have to deal with your distro versions more (that's
the thing I love more about Gentoo), but your packages still have
version numbers...
>>Taking a simple joke this seriously doesn't make you look superior. In
>>fact you look much more childish than the original poster. If you were
>>really a superior intelligence, you would have at least asked yourself
>>*why* so much people were laughing at your post.
>
>
> Aha, now I understand! I should have probably answer:
> AND_YOU_ARE_EVEN_BIGGER_FOOL_LOL=1
> That would have been probably even better simple joke, huh? :-)
> <now THIS is sarcasm from me, I would never write something like that>
Ok, I assume your sense of humour is hopeless :-D
>>You copy-and-paste the manual (implicitly stating we're all
>>morons that have never read it)
>
> I copy&pasted it to let you know where I got that idea...
Yes, I figured it out. But it's the impression you give that's quite bad.
>>And that's two characters, BTW (a letter and a dot :P )
>>m.
>
>
> OK, that's "cool", I will use it from now! :-)
?
I just don't see what's odd or wrong or cool with signing with just my
name initial... who cares about my name,anyway?
m.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 22:48 ` b.n.
@ 2005-11-07 21:55 ` Jarry
0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Jarry @ 2005-11-07 21:55 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
b.n. wrote:
>> phrases like "...it bloody matters!..." or "how the hell would we
>> know...!" or "Jarry needs variable BRAVE_YET_DUMB=1". Although
>> such words do not sound good to me, I would never dare to say their
>> authors are arrogant...
>
> These people are treating you with confidence. They're kidding with you
> because they assume you're understanding we're just kidding and we're
> all respectful of each other, at a deeper level. They assume you have a
> life and you don't have to feel hurt by every little single humour is
> done at you.
Believe me, or not, but I really did not know this was kidding (and it
is the most surprising info I got today). Respect to you all, but in my
country and culture we do not call something like that "kidding"...
Thanks for all replies, subject closed!
Jarry
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] portage: fixed or not???
2005-11-07 18:43 ` Jarry
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2005-11-07 20:02 ` b.n.
@ 2005-11-07 20:38 ` kashani
2005-11-08 1:03 ` Neil Bothwick
3 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: kashani @ 2005-11-07 20:38 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Jarry wrote:
> Could some of you, gentoo-wizards, be kind enough and explain, what
> is wrong in doing the things the way gentoo handbook recommends it?
> Without offensive language, if I may ask...
Being a server guy I'll throw this one out as it hasn't happened yet,
though I expect a fair amount of chaos when it hits.
When Postfix 2.2 goes live anyone doing virtual mail serving with a
database backend will break because the sql syntax is different (and
more powerful) in 2.2 than 2.0/2.1. Unless of course you change your
configs to match.
If you're looking for an older example some combination of updates from
Postfix 2.0.x to 2.1.x would cause queue corruption. The recommended way
to update was to shut Postfix down while emerging.
kashani
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