[gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ???

[gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ???

[Jarry]

Hi,

I'm using sendmail as my mail-server, and I noticed, that mail for
users is stored in $HOME/.maildir, not in /var/spool/mail.
And each mail is stored as separate file, not all in one file.
WHY???

Some mail clients does not look for new mail in $HOME/.maildir
with default settings (for example elm, only with -f).

Moreover, I expected that all mail will be in /var/spool/mail, so
I created /var relatively big and now I see that it is almost empty.

Even my pop3 server does not look for new mail in $HOME/.maildir,
so no user can download his mail throught pop3...

How can I force my mailserver to use /var/spool/mail?

Jarry
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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ???

[Christoph Gysin]

Jarry wrote:
> I'm using sendmail as my mail-server, and I noticed, that mail for
> users is stored in $HOME/.maildir, not in /var/spool/mail.
> And each mail is stored as separate file, not all in one file.
> WHY???

It's called the "maildir" mail storage format. I find it very useful, especially 
with big mailboxes...

> Some mail clients does not look for new mail in $HOME/.maildir
> with default settings (for example elm, only with -f).

Your mailreader must support maildir to read mails from it, of course. But yours 
seems to do it (with -f), so that's not really a problem, is it?

> Moreover, I expected that all mail will be in /var/spool/mail, so
> I created /var relatively big and now I see that it is almost empty.

Well, normally your /home isn't that small, so that shouldn't be a problem too...

> Even my pop3 server does not look for new mail in $HOME/.maildir,
> so no user can download his mail throught pop3...

Again, use a pop3 server which supports maildir, and everything is fine.

> How can I force my mailserver to use /var/spool/mail?

You could add mbox to your useflags and emerge sendmail. If you *really* want to 
use mbox...

Christoph
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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ???

[Jarry]

Christoph Gysin wrote:

> It's called the "maildir" mail storage format. I find it very useful, 

Personally I do not see any advantage of it over /var/spool/mail.
On the other side, separate partitions for /var (with mail) and /home
(with user files) let me define different quotas for mail and files.
Well, at least I thought it, until I found out that mail is actually
in /home too...

> Your mailreader must support maildir to read mails from it, of course. 
> But yours seems to do it (with -f), so that's not really a problem, is it?

Not for me, but for my users. Now I have to go through each mailreader
and find out how to force it reading mails from .maildir

> normally your /home isn't that small, so that shouldn't be a problem

I have a users, which do not have access to the server so I did not
plan any diskspace in /home for them. Instead of that, /var is much
bigger because I expected all mail to be stored there...

BTW, if some users do not have $HOME, where their .maildir will be???

> Again, use a pop3 server which supports maildir, and everything is fine.

I must look for one or to find how to force my pop3-server to use
maildir...

> You could add mbox to your useflags and emerge sendmail. If you *really* 
> want to use mbox...

That seem to me to be much easier. First I will find some info about it,
but if there is no substantial advantage in using maildirs instead of
/var/sool/mail, I will switch to the "old" mail storage system...

Thanks,

Jarry

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RE: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ???

[Michael Kintzios]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christoph Gysin [mailto:cgysin@gmx.ch] 
> Sent: 24 August 2005 15:00
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ???
> 
> 
> Jarry wrote:
> > I'm using sendmail as my mail-server, and I noticed, that mail for
> > users is stored in $HOME/.maildir, not in /var/spool/mail.
> > And each mail is stored as separate file, not all in one file.
> > WHY???
> 
> It's called the "maildir" mail storage format. I find it very 
> useful, especially 
> with big mailboxes...

[snip]
> You could add mbox to your useflags and emerge sendmail. If 
> you *really* want to 
> use mbox...

Could you please share any other benefits/disbenefits of the two
formats?
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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ???

[A. Khattri]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Jarry wrote:

> Personally I do not see any advantage of it over /var/spool/mail.
> On the other side, separate partitions for /var (with mail) and /home
> (with user files) let me define different quotas for mail and files.
> Well, at least I thought it, until I found out that mail is actually
> in /home too...

There have been many discussions for years about how maildir is superior
to mbox format... Im sure Google will help you find them.

> Not for me, but for my users. Now I have to go through each mailreader
> and find out how to force it reading mails from .maildir

There is probably a global config file for most mailers.

> BTW, if some users do not have $HOME, where their .maildir will be???

Not all email systems use /var/mail or $HOME, qmail+vpopmail stores email
for everyone under /home/vpopmail/domains for example.

> > You could add mbox to your useflags and emerge sendmail. If you *really*
> > want to use mbox...
>
> That seem to me to be much easier. First I will find some info about it,
> but if there is no substantial advantage in using maildirs instead of
> /var/sool/mail, I will switch to the "old" mail storage system...

We had all sorts of performance problems with mbox format - it is not
scaleable, bigger mboxes produce huge loads on the server. I should also
mention that maildir is inherently safer over NFS than mbox.

Its clear from your posting that you have yet to experience the problems
that have caused a lot of server administrators to abandon mbox format.


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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ???

[Christoph Gysin]

Michael Kintzios wrote:
> Could you please share any other benefits/disbenefits of the two
> formats?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maildir
http://www.qmail.org/man/man5/maildir.html
http://cr.yp.to/proto/maildir.html
http://www.courier-mta.org/mbox-vs-maildir/#theend

Christoph
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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ???

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 846 bytes --]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:28:08 +0200, Jarry wrote:

> > It's called the "maildir" mail storage format. I find it very useful, 
> 
> Personally I do not see any advantage of it over /var/spool/mail.
> On the other side, separate partitions for /var (with mail) and /home
> (with user files) let me define different quotas for mail and files.
> Well, at least I thought it, until I found out that mail is actually
> in /home too...

You can have maildir and still keep your mail in /var/spool/mail. In this
case, each user has a directory in /var/spool/mail.

Are you using procmail for delivery? If so, you need 

MAILDIR=/var/spool/mail
DEFAULT=$MAILDIR/$LOGNAME/

at the top of /etc/procmailrc


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day;
Teach him to use the Net and he won't bother you for weeks.

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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ???

[Jarry]

Neil Bothwick wrote:

> You can have maildir and still keep your mail in /var/spool/mail. In this
> case, each user has a directory in /var/spool/mail.
> Are you using procmail for delivery? If so, you need 
> MAILDIR=/var/spool/mail
> DEFAULT=$MAILDIR/$LOGNAME/
> at the top of /etc/procmailrc

Hm, that sounds interesting. I really want to have mails on a separate
partition. Thanks for the tip, I will have a look at it...

Jarry
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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ??? (cont.)

[Jarry]

Neil Bothwick wrote:

> MAILDIR=/var/spool/mail
> DEFAULT=$MAILDIR/$LOGNAME/
> at the top of /etc/procmailrc

OK, I tried. My /etc/procmailrc is:
DEFAULT=/var/spool/mail/$LOGNAME/     # that is the same

Mail is still in "maildir" format but at least in /var/spool/mail.

Q: How can I prohibit users from changing mail-path in their
$HOME/.procmailrc back to $HOME/.maildir? That way they could
circumvent my /var userqouta settings (100MB) and use /home
settings (5GB)...

One more problem: I can not force "elm" to read it. If I start elm
with option "-f /var/spool/mail/$LOGNAME", it complains that it is
directory. When I try "elm -f /var/spool/mail/$LOGNAME/new", the same.
It seems to me, that elm simply can not read "maildir" format at all.
I tried another command-line mailer, "mail": the same problem...
Which command-line mail-reader supports maildir format?

And last question: I have access to one Debian box (which uses mbox
format). After logging there I get either message "No mail", or
"You have new mail". But I do not get any similar message on my
Gentoo box. Why? Can I somehow activate it?

Jarry
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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ??? (cont.)

[A. Khattri]

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, Jarry wrote:

> Q: How can I prohibit users from changing mail-path in their
> $HOME/.procmailrc back to $HOME/.maildir? That way they could
> circumvent my /var userqouta settings (100MB) and use /home
> settings (5GB)...

Dont know if you can stop that.

> One more problem: I can not force "elm" to read it. If I start elm
> with option "-f /var/spool/mail/$LOGNAME", it complains that it is
> directory. When I try "elm -f /var/spool/mail/$LOGNAME/new", the same.
> It seems to me, that elm simply can not read "maildir" format at all.
> I tried another command-line mailer, "mail": the same problem...
> Which command-line mail-reader supports maildir format?

Hey, welcome to the 21st century (noone use elm and mail anymore ;-)

You probably need to setup an IMAP server and then configure Pine and/or
mutt to use IMAP (mutt actually supports maildir but some people might
want to use Pine instead). I would remove elm entirely.

> And last question: I have access to one Debian box (which uses mbox
> format). After logging there I get either message "No mail", or
> "You have new mail". But I do not get any similar message on my
> Gentoo box. Why? Can I somehow activate it?

Not with maildirs you dont.


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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ??? (cont.)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:42:38 +0200, Jarry wrote:

> > MAILDIR=/var/spool/mail
> > DEFAULT=$MAILDIR/$LOGNAME/
> > at the top of /etc/procmailrc
> 
> OK, I tried. My /etc/procmailrc is:
> DEFAULT=/var/spool/mail/$LOGNAME/     # that is the same
> 
> Mail is still in "maildir" format but at least in /var/spool/mail.

Rhat's correct, as others have said, maildir has many benefits. If you
want delivery to a single file, remove the trailing slash.

> Q: How can I prohibit users from changing mail-path in their
> $HOME/.procmailrc back to $HOME/.maildir? That way they could
> circumvent my /var userqouta settings (100MB) and use /home
> settings (5GB)...

Set the ownership of all .maildir directories to root:root and chmod 700?
It wouldn't stop them changing it, but they'd soon change it back :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Joystick: (n.) a device essential for performing business tasks and
training exercises esp. favored by pilots, tank commanders, riverboat
          gamblers, and medieval warlords.

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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ??? (cont.)

[Jean Magnan de Bornier]

Le 29 août à 20:42:38 Jarry <jarry@gmx.net> écrit notamment:

| OK, I tried. My /etc/procmailrc is:
| DEFAULT=/var/spool/mail/$LOGNAME/     # that is the same
>
| Mail is still in "maildir" format but at least in /var/spool/mail.

 DEFAULT=/var/spool/mail/$LOGNAME (no slash at the end) should give you
 mbox format if you really like it (you might be the only one around here :-))

cheers,
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  e-mots: jean at bornier.net        |        13980 Alleins   France
  T 08 70 39 34 03                   |        P 06 09 17 35 87

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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ??? (cont.)

[Jarry]

>>Q: How can I prohibit users from changing mail-path in their
>>$HOME/.procmailrc back to $HOME/.maildir?
> 
> Dont know if you can stop that.

Strange. It seems to me to be a sort of security problem,
if someone can so easily circumvent userquota settings...

>>After logging there I get either message "No mail", or
>>"You have new mail". But I do not get any similar message on my
>>Gentoo box. Why? Can I somehow activate it?
> 
> Not with maildirs you dont.

It seems to me maildir does not have only advantages  :-(

Jarry

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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ??? (cont.)

[A. Khattri]

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005, Jarry wrote:

> Strange. It seems to me to be a sort of security problem,
> if someone can so easily circumvent userquota settings...

Not if you have quotas on /home

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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ??? (cont.)

[Jarry]

A. Khattri wrote:

>>Strange. It seems to me to be a sort of security problem,
>>if someone can so easily circumvent userquota settings...
> 
> Not if you have quotas on /home

Yes I do have quotas both on /home and /var. But if user can redirect
its mails from /var (where userquota is 100MB, mail is supposed to be
there) to /home (where userquota is 5GB and where user files are
supposed to be, but not mails), then it really is a security problem
for me...

Jarry
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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ??? (cont.)

[Ron Bickers]

On Mon August 29 2005 04:19 pm, A. Khattri wrote:

> > And last question: I have access to one Debian box (which uses mbox
> > format). After logging there I get either message "No mail", or
> > "You have new mail". But I do not get any similar message on my
> > Gentoo box. Why? Can I somehow activate it?
>
> Not with maildirs you dont.

I'm not so sure this is true.  I've been using Maildirs for 8 years and I get 
these messages on my Fedora Core machines, but I haven't bothered seeing why 
I don't on Gentoo.

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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ??? (cont.)

[Willie Wong]

On Mon, Aug 29, 2005 at 08:42:38PM +0200, Jarry wrote:
> And last question: I have access to one Debian box (which uses mbox
> format). After logging there I get either message "No mail", or
> "You have new mail". But I do not get any similar message on my
> Gentoo box. Why? Can I somehow activate it?
> 
I am not sure, but I've heard it is possible. Try setting the MAIL
variable in BASH. 

W
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Re: [gentoo-user] mail in $HOME/.maildir, why ??? (cont.)

[Walter Dnes]

On Mon, Aug 29, 2005 at 08:42:38PM +0200, Jarry wrote

  If you have a problem with users having access to certain email, then
don't let them access that email at all.  That is the only way.

> Neil Bothwick wrote:
> 
> Q: How can I prohibit users from changing mail-path in their
> $HOME/.procmailrc back to $HOME/.maildir? That way they could
> circumvent my /var userqouta settings (100MB) and use /home
> settings (5GB)...

  I believe that procmail is paranoid about any .procmailrc not having
"correct" ownership and permissions.  So if you chown it to root,
procmail may ignore it when processing email for the user.  You might
want to look at setting up .procmailrc "properly" in the user's name,
and then "chattr +i" on it.  That should lock it down.

  Having said that... what's to prevent a user from saving copies of his
email to a directory in his own account?  I repeat what I said at the
start of this message... if you have a problem with users having access
to certain email, then don't let them access that email at all.  That is
the only way.

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