Re: [gentoo-user] 2.4 -> 2.6 wierdness

Re: [gentoo-user] 2.4 -> 2.6 wierdness

[Holly Bostick]

Jerry McBride schreef:
> On Tuesday 05 July 2005 06:00 pm, creighto@spunge.org wrote:
> 
>>Trying to  Migrate to 2.6.  But when I reboot into my new genkerneled
>>system, I cannot use X.org anymore, it complains about agpgart not
>>working.  Even If I modprobe the kernel mod or even compile it in directly
>>it rejects it.
>>Any Ideas on how to proceed?
>>
>>Creighton
> 
> 
> 
> Without seeing the xorg logfile from /var/logs... I'd say you ahve to 
> re-emerge xorg or at the least run revdep-rebuild -p to see whta has to get 
> upgraded also.
>

I question whether that would work, without knowing what hardware
(motherboard, videocard) is involved, especially when I hear the word
'genkernel'.

To me, errors in agpgart first suggest that either support for your
motherboard's agp chipset is not compiled into the kernel, or --if
compiled as a module, is not loaded; and secondly, the outside chance
that-- if using an ATI card-- the InternalAGPGART setting is wrong; set
to YES when it should be set to NO because you have to use your
motherboard's kernel module (but this does not usually result in X.org
not starting, just complaints in the logs), or set to NO when it should
be set to YES because you don't use your motherboard's kernel support,
so no agpgart is being loaded at all (which I would imagine would
prevent X from starting).

What does dmesg or /var/log/messages say about agpgart? Did it try to
load and fail? What does lsmod say is loaded? If nothing, can you
modprobe your agpgart module? What is your mobo and video card? If an
ATI or nVidia video card, did you re-emerge the drivers after compiling
the kernel?

Basically, I'd just like to confirm that genkernel didn't drop the ball.

Holly

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Re: [gentoo-user] 2.4 -> 2.6 wierdness

[Martins Steinbergs]

these are my autoload modules, commented are ones that some HOWTO pointed to 
but never worked. 

/etc/modules.autoload.d/kernel-2.6
agpgart
#via-agp
#ati-agp
fglrx
#radeon
rtc
snd-via82xx
r8169
#drm
amd64-agp


On Wednesday 06 July 2005 12:55, Holly Bostick wrote:
> Jerry McBride schreef:
> > On Tuesday 05 July 2005 06:00 pm, creighto@spunge.org wrote:
> >>Trying to  Migrate to 2.6.  But when I reboot into my new genkerneled
> >>system, I cannot use X.org anymore, it complains about agpgart not
> >>working.  Even If I modprobe the kernel mod or even compile it in
> >> directly it rejects it.
> >>Any Ideas on how to proceed?
> >>
> >>Creighton
> >
> > Without seeing the xorg logfile from /var/logs... I'd say you ahve to
> > re-emerge xorg or at the least run revdep-rebuild -p to see whta has to
> > get upgraded also.
>
> I question whether that would work, without knowing what hardware
> (motherboard, videocard) is involved, especially when I hear the word
> 'genkernel'.
>
> To me, errors in agpgart first suggest that either support for your
> motherboard's agp chipset is not compiled into the kernel, or --if
> compiled as a module, is not loaded; and secondly, the outside chance
> that-- if using an ATI card-- the InternalAGPGART setting is wrong; set
> to YES when it should be set to NO because you have to use your
> motherboard's kernel module (but this does not usually result in X.org
> not starting, just complaints in the logs), or set to NO when it should
> be set to YES because you don't use your motherboard's kernel support,
> so no agpgart is being loaded at all (which I would imagine would
> prevent X from starting).
>
> What does dmesg or /var/log/messages say about agpgart? Did it try to
> load and fail? What does lsmod say is loaded? If nothing, can you
> modprobe your agpgart module? What is your mobo and video card? If an
> ATI or nVidia video card, did you re-emerge the drivers after compiling
> the kernel?
>
> Basically, I'd just like to confirm that genkernel didn't drop the ball.
>
> Holly
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Re: [gentoo-user] 2.4 -> 2.6 wierdness

[Holly Bostick]

Martins Steinbergs schreef:
>> On Wednesday 06 July 2005 12:55, Holly Bostick wrote:
>> 
>>>
>>
>>To me, errors in agpgart first suggest that either support for your
>>motherboard's agp chipset is not compiled into the kernel, or --if
>>compiled as a module, is not loaded; and secondly, the outside chance
>>that-- if using an ATI card-- the InternalAGPGART setting is wrong;
<snip>
>>
>>What does dmesg or /var/log/messages say about agpgart? Did it try to
>>load and fail? What does lsmod say is loaded? If nothing, can you
>>modprobe your agpgart module? What is your mobo and video card? If an
>>ATI or nVidia video card, did you re-emerge the drivers after compiling
>>the kernel?
>>
>>Basically, I'd just like to confirm that genkernel didn't drop the ball.
>>
>>Holly

> these are my autoload modules, commented are ones that some HOWTO pointed to 
> but never worked. 
> 
> /etc/modules.autoload.d/kernel-2.6
> agpgart
> #via-agp
> #ati-agp
> fglrx
> #radeon
> rtc
> snd-via82xx
> r8169
> #drm
> amd64-agp

OK, so you have both the via and ati agpgarts commented out, the
amd64-agp module set to load and you *are* using a ATI card with the
fglrx drivers. I don't have an amd64 board, so I don't know if that
module is the correct one for your motherboard, but if you don't have a
VIA-based or ATI-based motherboard (yes, ATI does make motherboards,
lately), you can remove the commented entries for via-agp and ati-agp,
because they have nothing to do with you anyway, and there's no point.

Could you please tell us your motherboard make and model, so we could
determine what module you actually need? The output of lsmod would also
help, to show us what modules are actually loaded.

I also see that you have 'drm' commented. That's not good-- not because
you should be using kernel DRM (first rule of ATI drivers is: 'disable
kernel DRI'), but because it suggests that DRM is going to be set in
some way in your kernel config.... and the default is to compile it
directly into the kernel, which is not affected by
modules.autoload.d/kernel-anything (because it's not a loadable module).

OK so from this point, we could d*ck around with the kernel, or we could
narrow down the problem. I think narrowing down the problem is easier,
especially since you don't seem in a rush to check your logs or post the
logs or give us any details as to what your hardware actually is, or
whatever.

Try this:

open up xorg.conf (/etc/X11/xorg.conf) in a text editor as root (nano
works good for this) and change the following:

# === ATI device section ===

Section "Device"
    Identifier                          "ATI Graphics Adapter"
    Driver                              "fglrx"

to

# === ATI device section ===

Section "Device"
    Identifier                          "ATI Graphics Adapter"
    Driver                              "vesa"

I am assuming with this edit that your server flags at the end of the
config file looks like this:

# **********************************************************************
# Screen sections
# **********************************************************************

# Any number of screen sections may be present.  Each describes
# the configuration of a single screen.  A single specific screen section
# may be specified from the X server command line with the "-screen"
# option.
Section "Screen"
    Identifier  "Screen0"
    Device      "ATI Graphics Adapter"
    Monitor     "Monitor0"
    DefaultDepth 24
    #Option "backingstore"

    Subsection "Display"
        Depth       24
        Modes       "1280x1024" "1280x960" "1152x864" "1024x768"
"800x600" "640x480"
        ViewPort    0 0  # initial origin if mode is smaller than desktop
#        Virtual     1280 1024
    EndSubsection
EndSection

------------------------------------------------------------------

(which means that the 'screen'-- which is a combination of the video
card and monitor settings specified above this area) is using the
settings for the ATI Graphics adapter device (whose driver we have just
changed to vesa from fglrx). But my xorg.conf looks like this because I
at some point used fglrxconfig, and maybe you haven't.

If your screen section does *not* look like what's above, for whatever
reason, then you can also switch to the vesa driver from the fglrx
driver by editing the Screen section itself:

# **********************************************************************
# Screen sections
# **********************************************************************

# Any number of screen sections may be present.  Each describes
# the configuration of a single screen.  A single specific screen section
# may be specified from the X server command line with the "-screen"
# option.
Section "Screen"
    Identifier  "Screen0"
==> Device      "Standard VGA"


--------------------------------------------------------

...because in the Device section exists a default setting:


# **********************************************************************
# Graphics device section
# **********************************************************************

# Any number of graphics device sections may be present

# Standard VGA Device:

Section "Device"
    Identifier  "Standard VGA"
    VendorName  "Unknown"
    BoardName   "Unknown"

# The chipset line is optional in most cases.  It can be used to override
# the driver's chipset detection, and should not normally be specified.

#    Chipset     "generic"

# The Driver line must be present.  When using run-time loadable driver
# modules, this line instructs the server to load the specified driver
# module.  Even when not using loadable driver modules, this line
# indicates which driver should interpret the information in this section.

    Driver      "vesa" (normally this says 'vga', but I changed it to
vesa, as vga doesn't seem to work for me)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, what I'm getting at here is

1) Switch to the vesa driver

2) Try to start X and see if it will start.

If it will, then the problem is specifically around the fglrx driver
(you didn't recompile it, so it won't load, or genkernel added something
that conflicts with it, so it won't load).

If it still won't start, the problem is with X itself-- check the logs
to see if it's a settings issue, or try Jerry's suggestion of
recompiling x.org, and/or revdep-rebuild.

Hope this helps,
Holly
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Re: [gentoo-user] 2.4 -> 2.6 wierdness

[creighto]

Okay, let's start over.  I have only posted the first post of this thread,
but I would say that all off the noise may imply that I am not alone here.

-I have a working setup in 2.4, less so now than before, but xorg does
still work.

-in 2.6, xorg will break and complain that /dev/agpgart does not exist.

-/dev/agpgart, in fact, does not exist when using Udev in 2.6, yet it does
exist when I reboot into 2.4

-modprobe agpgart will result in an error

-genkernel --udev --menuconfig all will not show me an option that refers
to AGP anything, is this a bus?

-I run this in an old HP Pavilion, 500 Mhertz Celeron, 128 meg ram with
i810 onboard chipsets, Xorg originally autodetected everything including
the resolution of my Komodo monitor.  I didn't know it went that high.

-I tried compiling the kernel directly once and got a kernel panic, I
don't remember if AGP was mentioned in that case.

Creighton

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Re: [gentoo-user] 2.4 -> 2.6 wierdness

[Holly Bostick]

creighto@spunge.org schreef:
> Okay, let's start over.  I have only posted the first post of this thread,
> but I would say that all off the noise may imply that I am not alone here.
> 
> -I have a working setup in 2.4, less so now than before, but xorg does
> still work.
> 
> -in 2.6, xorg will break and complain that /dev/agpgart does not exist.
> 
> -/dev/agpgart, in fact, does not exist when using Udev in 2.6, yet it does
> exist when I reboot into 2.4

Yes, but you see, my point is that-- as far as I know-- udev doesn't
create the agpgart device; the loading of the kernel module does that.
In the same way that the kernel modules are responsible for creating all
the motherboard resources that load at boot before udev comes into the
picture.

So that's why I'm feeling that the problem is with your kernel, not udev
per se. Although maybe coldplug wouldn't hurt to have in rc-update.

> 
> -modprobe agpgart will result in an error

What is the error? Module doesn't exist? Module is already loaded?
Symbol errors?

> 
> -genkernel --udev --menuconfig all will not show me an option that refers
> to AGP anything, is this a bus?

Yes, it's a speeded-up, dedicated form of the PCI bus.

The kernel configuration for it is

Device Drivers==> Character devices.

HTH,
Holly
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Re: [gentoo-user] 2.4 -> 2.6 wierdness

[creighto]

>> -modprobe agpgart will result in an error
>
> What is the error? Module doesn't exist? Module is already loaded?
> Symbol errors?

module not found

>
>>
>> -genkernel --udev --menuconfig all will not show me an option that
>> refers
>> to AGP anything, is this a bus?
>
> Yes, it's a speeded-up, dedicated form of the PCI bus.
>
> The kernel configuration for it is
>
> Device Drivers==> Character devices.

I see it, thanks.

<M> and recompile should fix my issues.

> HTH,
> Holly


Thanks again, Holly.

Creighton.


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Re: [gentoo-user] 2.4 -> 2.6 weirdness

[creighto]

Nope, it's definitely udev.

I have verified that genkernel does compile the agpgart module and create
the /dev/agpgart as a symlink to /dev/misc/agpgart on the real filesystem.
 But when the udev 'populates' /dev it then mounts over top of the real
/dev tree and the new /dev/ and /dev/misc/ have no agpgart present.  Even
if I compile in the 2.6 system, the links created are short lived as they
die and udev rebuilds on next boot.  I have no idea what to do next.

Creighton


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Re: [gentoo-user] 2.4 -> 2.6 weirdness

[David Busby]

creighto@spunge.org wrote:
> Nope, it's definitely udev.
> 
> I have verified that genkernel does compile the agpgart module and create
> the /dev/agpgart as a symlink to /dev/misc/agpgart on the real filesystem.
>  But when the udev 'populates' /dev it then mounts over top of the real
> /dev tree and the new /dev/ and /dev/misc/ have no agpgart present.  Even
> if I compile in the 2.6 system, the links created are short lived as they
> die and udev rebuilds on next boot.  I have no idea what to do next.

Can you turn off the /dev tarball feature?
 From /etc/conf.d/rc

# Use this variable to control the /dev management behavior.
#  auto   - let the scripts figure out what's best at boot
#  devfs  - use devfs (requires sys-fs/devfsd)
#  udev   - use udev (requires sys-fs/udev)
#  static - let the user manage /dev

RC_DEVICES="auto"


/djb

> 
> Creighton
> 
> 

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Re: [gentoo-user] 2.4 -> 2.6 wierdness

[Richard Fish]

creighto@spunge.org wrote:

>Okay, let's start over.  I have only posted the first post of this thread,
>but I would say that all off the noise may imply that I am not alone here.
>
>-I have a working setup in 2.4, less so now than before, but xorg does
>still work.
>
>-in 2.6, xorg will break and complain that /dev/agpgart does not exist.
>
>  
>

Check /etc/udev/50-udev.rules.  You should have a line that says:

KERNEL="agpgart", NAME="misc/%k", SYMLINK="%k"

A quick explanation of how udev works may help you find the real problem
here:

For drivers compiled into the kernel, their device nodes get created either:

  1. permanently by creating the device nodes manually and using the
tarball feature in /etc/conf.d/rc

  2. When udevstart is executed by /sbin/rc during startup

For modules, the device nodes are created when the kernel runs
/sbin/udevsend when the module is loaded.  You *must* have hotplug
support in the kernel for this though.

You can cause udev to generate debug messages by setting "udev_log = 7"
in /etc/udev/udev.conf.  The debug output goes to /var/log/messages.



>-genkernel --udev --menuconfig all will not show me an option that refers
>to AGP anything, is this a bus?
>  
>

Well, in the normal kernel configuration, It is under "Device
drivers->Character devices->/dev/apgart".

You need both AGPGART and the chipset specific driver.  For example, my
config has:

carcharias linux # grep AGP /usr/src/linux/.config
CONFIG_AGP=y
# CONFIG_AGP_ALI is not set
# CONFIG_AGP_ATI is not set
# CONFIG_AGP_AMD is not set
# CONFIG_AGP_AMD64 is not set
CONFIG_AGP_INTEL=y
# CONFIG_AGP_NVIDIA is not set
# CONFIG_AGP_SIS is not set
# CONFIG_AGP_SWORKS is not set
# CONFIG_AGP_VIA is not set
# CONFIG_AGP_EFFICEON is not set

>-I tried compiling the kernel directly once and got a kernel panic, I
>don't remember if AGP was mentioned in that case.
>
>  
>

Most common cause of this is not compiling the required drivers for your
root filesystem (disk and filesystem drivers) into your kernel.  Such
drivers cannot be modules without a great deal of effort.

-Richard

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Re: [gentoo-user] 2.4 -> 2.6 wierdness, solved!

[creighto]

I checked all of the following and found them matching perfectly, in the
end it was a simple change of the intel-agp module's name that had my
system in fits.  Thanks for all of your help everyone.

Now on to setting up the new sound system...

>
> Check /etc/udev/50-udev.rules.  You should have a line that says:
>
> KERNEL="agpgart", NAME="misc/%k", SYMLINK="%k"
>
> A quick explanation of how udev works may help you find the real problem
> here:
>
> For drivers compiled into the kernel, their device nodes get created
> either:
>
>   1. permanently by creating the device nodes manually and using the
> tarball feature in /etc/conf.d/rc
>
>   2. When udevstart is executed by /sbin/rc during startup
>
> For modules, the device nodes are created when the kernel runs
> /sbin/udevsend when the module is loaded.  You *must* have hotplug
> support in the kernel for this though.
>
> You can cause udev to generate debug messages by setting "udev_log = 7"
> in /etc/udev/udev.conf.  The debug output goes to /var/log/messages.
>
>
>
>>-genkernel --udev --menuconfig all will not show me an option that refers
>>to AGP anything, is this a bus?
>>
>>
>
> Well, in the normal kernel configuration, It is under "Device
> drivers->Character devices->/dev/apgart".
>
> You need both AGPGART and the chipset specific driver.  For example, my
> config has:
>
> carcharias linux # grep AGP /usr/src/linux/.config
> CONFIG_AGP=y
> # CONFIG_AGP_ALI is not set
> # CONFIG_AGP_ATI is not set
> # CONFIG_AGP_AMD is not set
> # CONFIG_AGP_AMD64 is not set
> CONFIG_AGP_INTEL=y
> # CONFIG_AGP_NVIDIA is not set
> # CONFIG_AGP_SIS is not set
> # CONFIG_AGP_SWORKS is not set
> # CONFIG_AGP_VIA is not set
> # CONFIG_AGP_EFFICEON is not set
>
>>-I tried compiling the kernel directly once and got a kernel panic, I
>>don't remember if AGP was mentioned in that case.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Most common cause of this is not compiling the required drivers for your
> root filesystem (disk and filesystem drivers) into your kernel.  Such
> drivers cannot be modules without a great deal of effort.
>
> -Richard
>
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Travelling in Greece, need advice

[Grant]

> > Hello!  I am travelling and am currently on the Greek island of Corfu.
> >  It is great!  I have my laptop but I'm finding it totally impossible
> > to find a place that will let me plug into their network for Internet
> > access.  I can't use public systems because of keyboard loggers and
> > bank passwords etc.  My business is seriously dying at this point and
> > after a lot of thinking, I think my best option is to get my modem
> > working and hire one of the global dial-up providers.  I should be
> > able to find a phone line wherever I am.  Does anyone have a better
> > idea?  If not, does anyone recommend a particular one of these
> > companies?
> 
> Go wifi, try this for a list of hotspots worldwide:
> 
> http://intel.jiwire.com/
> 
> hth,
> 
> cooper.

I had planned on finding wireless connections and then ethernet
networks as a backup.  Either one has proven to be totally impossible.
 I need something I can rely on and since using public computers is
too dangerous it sounds like I need to dial up.  I could just make
sure that there is an available phone line where I plan to go and that
my dial-up provider has a local number there.

Can anyone recommend a particular global dial-up company?

- Grant

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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Travelling in Greece, need advice

[byron]

Grant wrote:
>>>Hello!  I am travelling and am currently on the Greek island of Corfu.
>>> It is great!  I have my laptop but I'm finding it totally impossible
>>>to find a place that will let me plug into their network for Internet
>>>access.  I can't use public systems because of keyboard loggers and
>>>bank passwords etc.  My business is seriously dying at this point and
>>>after a lot of thinking, I think my best option is to get my modem
>>>working and hire one of the global dial-up providers.  I should be
>>>able to find a phone line wherever I am.  Does anyone have a better
>>>idea?  If not, does anyone recommend a particular one of these
>>>companies?
>>
>>Go wifi, try this for a list of hotspots worldwide:
>>
>>http://intel.jiwire.com/
>>
>>hth,
>>
>>cooper.
> 
> 
> I had planned on finding wireless connections and then ethernet
> networks as a backup.  Either one has proven to be totally impossible.
>  I need something I can rely on and since using public computers is
> too dangerous it sounds like I need to dial up.  I could just make
> sure that there is an available phone line where I plan to go and that
> my dial-up provider has a local number there.
> 
> Can anyone recommend a particular global dial-up company?
> 
> - Grant
> 

It's been a while since I've had to shop around for dialup service for
any of my users.  However, if my memory serves me correctly I think AT&T
has global dial-up capabilities.  It's probably at a premium, but
available none the less.

byron
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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Travelling in Greece, need advice

[Grant]

> > I had planned on finding wireless connections and then ethernet
> > networks as a backup.  Either one has proven to be totally impossible.
> >  I need something I can rely on and since using public computers is
> > too dangerous it sounds like I need to dial up.  I could just make
> > sure that there is an available phone line where I plan to go and that
> > my dial-up provider has a local number there.
> >
> > Can anyone recommend a particular global dial-up company?
> >
> > - Grant
> >
> 
> It's been a while since I've had to shop around for dialup service for
> any of my users.  However, if my memory serves me correctly I think AT&T
> has global dial-up capabilities.  It's probably at a premium, but
> available none the less.
> 
> byron

Thanks Byron.  I'm hooked up with budgetdialup.com now.  6
cents/minute in Europe.

Please see my new post on getting my laptop's winmodem working if
you're interested.  This linux-on-laptops.com link has it working with
a driver in the kernel:

http://www.angelfire.com/linux/t_johnson/

although running Slackware.

- Grant

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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Travelling in Greece, need advice

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Wednesday 06 July 2005 03:29, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:
>
> > I would not trust a wifi setup by a unknown 3rd party to do online
> > banking.
> >
> > The security of the average wifi is pretty low. Because of
> > lazyness, stupidity
> > or bugs.
>
> However, any good bank will have SSL for the higher level protocols,
> and the wifi should be as secure as public wired connections (ie DSL
> etc).  (which is to say, not secure).  If you trust your cable modem
> or DSL to do SSL-enabled online banking, you should be ok with the wifi
>

hm, you want to tell me, that it is as easy to get into the computer room, 
hack a line and listen, than to hold an atenna in the right direction?

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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Travelling in Greece, need advice

[Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC]

On Jul 5, 2005, at 10:53 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> On Wednesday 06 July 2005 03:29, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> I would not trust a wifi setup by a unknown 3rd party to do online
>>> banking.
>>>
>>> The security of the average wifi is pretty low. Because of
>>> lazyness, stupidity
>>> or bugs.
>>>
>>
>> However, any good bank will have SSL for the higher level protocols,
>> and the wifi should be as secure as public wired connections (ie DSL
>> etc).  (which is to say, not secure).  If you trust your cable modem
>> or DSL to do SSL-enabled online banking, you should be ok with the  
>> wifi
>>
>>
>
> hm, you want to tell me, that it is as easy to get into the  
> computer room,

No need to get into the computer room.  Plenty of cables leading out  
of the computer room.  I could tap any of my neighbors cable lines or  
phone lines without them knowing and without going into their house.

Once you get outside the computer room you are on the unprotected  
internet, whether you are on wifi or DSL or cable or modem to get there.

Chad

> hack a line and listen, than to hold an atenna in the right direction?
>
> -- 
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

---
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Your Web App and Email hosting provider
chad@shire.net


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Travelling in Greece, need advice

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Wednesday 06 July 2005 07:11, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:
> On Jul 5, 2005, at 10:53 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Wednesday 06 July 2005 03:29, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:
> >>> I would not trust a wifi setup by a unknown 3rd party to do online
> >>> banking.
> >>>
> >>> The security of the average wifi is pretty low. Because of
> >>> lazyness, stupidity
> >>> or bugs.
> >>
> >> However, any good bank will have SSL for the higher level protocols,
> >> and the wifi should be as secure as public wired connections (ie DSL
> >> etc).  (which is to say, not secure).  If you trust your cable modem
> >> or DSL to do SSL-enabled online banking, you should be ok with the
> >> wifi
> >
> > hm, you want to tell me, that it is as easy to get into the
> > computer room,
>
> No need to get into the computer room.  Plenty of cables leading out
> of the computer room.  I could tap any of my neighbors cable lines or
> phone lines without them knowing and without going into their house.
>
> Once you get outside the computer room you are on the unprotected
> internet, whether you are on wifi or DSL or cable or modem to get there.
>

ok, but where I live, you have to dig, to get to the cables.. and then you 
still do not know, which cable to hack out of the bundle. 
While with a wifi, all you need is a good antenna.
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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Travelling in Greece, need advice

[Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC]

On Jul 6, 2005, at 6:49 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> On Wednesday 06 July 2005 07:11, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:
>
>> On Jul 5, 2005, at 10:53 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday 06 July 2005 03:29, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I would not trust a wifi setup by a unknown 3rd party to do online
>>>>> banking.
>>>>>
>>>>> The security of the average wifi is pretty low. Because of
>>>>> lazyness, stupidity
>>>>> or bugs.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> However, any good bank will have SSL for the higher level  
>>>> protocols,
>>>> and the wifi should be as secure as public wired connections (ie  
>>>> DSL
>>>> etc).  (which is to say, not secure).  If you trust your cable  
>>>> modem
>>>> or DSL to do SSL-enabled online banking, you should be ok with the
>>>> wifi
>>>>
>>>
>>> hm, you want to tell me, that it is as easy to get into the
>>> computer room,
>>>
>>
>> No need to get into the computer room.  Plenty of cables leading out
>> of the computer room.  I could tap any of my neighbors cable lines or
>> phone lines without them knowing and without going into their house.
>>
>> Once you get outside the computer room you are on the unprotected
>> internet, whether you are on wifi or DSL or cable or modem to get  
>> there.
>>
>>
>
> ok, but where I live, you have to dig, to get to the cables.. and  
> then you
> still do not know, which cable to hack out of the bundle.
> While with a wifi, all you need is a good antenna.

Nope, no digging. Phone lines terminate in handy little boxes on the  
side of the houses.  Cable modem lines have little termination  
pedestals on the street and single cable going into the building

Chad

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>
>

---
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Your Web App and Email hosting provider
chad@shire.net


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Travelling in Greece, need advice

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Wednesday 06 July 2005 17:18, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:

> Nope, no digging. Phone lines terminate in handy little boxes on the
> side of the houses.  Cable modem lines have little termination
> pedestals on the street and single cable going into the building

yes digging ;)

These boxes are only on old buidlings, where nobody cares, but I don't know 
any building built in the last 20 years, where you have this boxes outside at 
the walls.
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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Travelling in Greece, need advice

[Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC]

On Jul 6, 2005, at 2:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> On Wednesday 06 July 2005 17:18, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:
>
>
>> Nope, no digging. Phone lines terminate in handy little boxes on the
>> side of the houses.  Cable modem lines have little termination
>> pedestals on the street and single cable going into the building
>>
>
> yes digging ;)
>
> These boxes are only on old buidlings, where nobody cares, but I  
> don't know
> any building built in the last 20 years, where you have this boxes  
> outside at
> the walls.

Most single family homes in the US have a phone access box on the  
outside of the house.  Especially new construction.

And the cable boxes are out on the street as well

no digging

Chad

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> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

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Your Web App and Email hosting provider
chad@shire.net


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Travelling in Greece, need advice

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Wednesday 06 July 2005 22:54, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:
> On Jul 6, 2005, at 2:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Wednesday 06 July 2005 17:18, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:
> >> Nope, no digging. Phone lines terminate in handy little boxes on the
> >> side of the houses.  Cable modem lines have little termination
> >> pedestals on the street and single cable going into the building
> >
> > yes digging ;)
> >
> > These boxes are only on old buidlings, where nobody cares, but I
> > don't know
> > any building built in the last 20 years, where you have this boxes
> > outside at
> > the walls.
>
> Most single family homes in the US have a phone access box on the
> outside of the house.  Especially new construction.
>

glad, that I am not living there ;)

Where I live, almost all houses have no boxes outside anymore, and thus makes 
digging a requirement, or to look for the right manhole and find the right 
cable ;)
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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Travelling in Greece, need advice

[David D. Rea]

On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 00:45 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > Most single family homes in the US have a phone access box on the
> > outside of the house.  Especially new construction.
> >
> 
> glad, that I am not living there ;)
> 
> Where I live, almost all houses have no boxes outside anymore, and thus makes 
> digging a requirement, or to look for the right manhole and find the right 
> cable ;)

I think I've got the solution for both of ya: 

FIBER! Time to get on the neighborhood SONET ring... :)

Dave

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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Travelling in Greece, need advice

[Billy Holmes]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> hm, you want to tell me, that it is as easy to get into the computer room, 
> hack a line and listen, than to hold an atenna in the right direction?

it only takes *one* compromised router/machine to ruin your day.

Trust in nothing. Encrypt everything.

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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Travelling in Greece, need advice

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Wednesday 06 July 2005 16:07, Billy Holmes wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > hm, you want to tell me, that it is as easy to get into the computer
> > room, hack a line and listen, than to hold an atenna in the right
> > direction?
>
> it only takes *one* compromised router/machine to ruin your day.
>
> Trust in nothing. Encrypt everything.

and ONE typing error is enough, to open up your wifi for everybody withing  a 
radius of 1 km. 
Than the cracker can easily listening to the handshake, get the keys, and you 
are screwed. 
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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Travelling in Greece, need advice

[Kurt Guenther]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

>The security of the average wifi is pretty low. Because of lazyness, stupidity 
>or bugs.
>
>Get a modem, you should be able to dial in to several local and international 
>isps :)
>  
>
> I would not trust a wifi setup by a unknown 3rd party to do online
> banking.


If you use a VPN, then all your communications is encrypted.  I setup
openvpn into my servers and it relays all my transactions, so it's
exactly if I was working in the office.  You also don't need to be as
concerned about SSL connections, etc.

--Kurt


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