[gentoo-user] Wastebin or trash?

[gentoo-user] Wastebin or trash?

[Peter Humphrey]

Hello list,

As I said in the "emerge @system" thread, I've built a fresh ~amd64 system 
on this i7 box. I also created a new user directory for myself, copying in 
only .bash*, .gkrellm2 and .mozilla.

After spending a good long time setting up KDE and friends just the way I 
like them, the one remaining task was to set up KMail and import my 1000-or-
so messages. That worked all right, with just the one same exception as 
before: KMail's recycle bin is call "trash" in the folder list, but the 
right-click menu on it offers to "empty wastebin".

I'm sure I have all my linguas, l10ns i18ns and everything set up right, so 
I think I'm just seeing an intermediate stage in KMail development.

Is anyone else seeing this?

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Wastebin or trash?

[Andrew Lowe]

On 07/09/16 23:45, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> Hello list,
>
> As I said in the "emerge @system" thread, I've built a fresh ~amd64 system
> on this i7 box. I also created a new user directory for myself, copying in
> only .bash*, .gkrellm2 and .mozilla.
>
> After spending a good long time setting up KDE and friends just the way I
> like them, the one remaining task was to set up KMail and import my 1000-or-
> so messages. That worked all right, with just the one same exception as
> before: KMail's recycle bin is call "trash" in the folder list, but the
> right-click menu on it offers to "empty wastebin".
>
> I'm sure I have all my linguas, l10ns i18ns and everything set up right, so
> I think I'm just seeing an intermediate stage in KMail development.
>
> Is anyone else seeing this?
>

	I'm reading this whilst sitting in Perth, Australia so both should read 
"Rubbish Bin" or possibly "Wheelie Bin"  ;)

	Andrew

Re: [gentoo-user] Wastebin or trash?

[Mick]

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On Thursday 08 Sep 2016 00:47:13 Andrew Lowe wrote:
> On 07/09/16 23:45, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > Hello list,
> > 
> > As I said in the "emerge @system" thread, I've built a fresh ~amd64 system
> > on this i7 box. I also created a new user directory for myself, copying in
> > only .bash*, .gkrellm2 and .mozilla.
> > 
> > After spending a good long time setting up KDE and friends just the way I
> > like them, the one remaining task was to set up KMail and import my
> > 1000-or- so messages. That worked all right, with just the one same
> > exception as before: KMail's recycle bin is call "trash" in the folder
> > list, but the right-click menu on it offers to "empty wastebin".
> > 
> > I'm sure I have all my linguas, l10ns i18ns and everything set up right,
> > so
> > I think I'm just seeing an intermediate stage in KMail development.
> > 
> > Is anyone else seeing this?
> 
> 	I'm reading this whilst sitting in Perth, Australia so both should read
> "Rubbish Bin" or possibly "Wheelie Bin"  ;)
> 
> 	Andrew

One IMAP4 account of mine shows 'Bin' and another shows 'Trash'.  As I 
understand it you need to configure the locale on the mail server.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Wastebin or trash?

[Simon Thelen]

On 16-09-07 at 18:41, Mick wrote:
> On Thursday 08 Sep 2016 00:47:13 Andrew Lowe wrote:
> > On 07/09/16 23:45, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > Hello list,
> > > 
> > > As I said in the "emerge @system" thread, I've built a fresh ~amd64 system
> > > on this i7 box. I also created a new user directory for myself, copying in
> > > only .bash*, .gkrellm2 and .mozilla.
> > > 
> > > After spending a good long time setting up KDE and friends just the way I
> > > like them, the one remaining task was to set up KMail and import my
> > > 1000-or- so messages. That worked all right, with just the one same
> > > exception as before: KMail's recycle bin is call "trash" in the folder
> > > list, but the right-click menu on it offers to "empty wastebin".
> > > 
> > > I'm sure I have all my linguas, l10ns i18ns and everything set up right,
> > > so
> > > I think I'm just seeing an intermediate stage in KMail development.
> > > 
> > > Is anyone else seeing this?
> > 
> > 	I'm reading this whilst sitting in Perth, Australia so both should read
> > "Rubbish Bin" or possibly "Wheelie Bin"  ;)
> One IMAP4 account of mine shows 'Bin' and another shows 'Trash'.  As I 
> understand it you need to configure the locale on the mail server.
IMAP itself does not have a concept of "Trash", the creation of such a
mailbox is the prerogative of the client (unless the server itself feels
that the imap client doesn't know what it's doing and moves deleted
emails into a different mailbox; not that I've ever seen a mail server
do that), therefore changing the locale on the mail server won't help
and it is indeed something on the client that needs to be changed.

-- 
Simon Thelen

Re: [gentoo-user] Wastebin or trash?

[Alan McKinnon]

On 07/09/2016 19:53, Simon Thelen wrote:
> On 16-09-07 at 18:41, Mick wrote:
>> On Thursday 08 Sep 2016 00:47:13 Andrew Lowe wrote:
>>> On 07/09/16 23:45, Peter Humphrey wrote:
>>>> Hello list,
>>>>
>>>> As I said in the "emerge @system" thread, I've built a fresh ~amd64 system
>>>> on this i7 box. I also created a new user directory for myself, copying in
>>>> only .bash*, .gkrellm2 and .mozilla.
>>>>
>>>> After spending a good long time setting up KDE and friends just the way I
>>>> like them, the one remaining task was to set up KMail and import my
>>>> 1000-or- so messages. That worked all right, with just the one same
>>>> exception as before: KMail's recycle bin is call "trash" in the folder
>>>> list, but the right-click menu on it offers to "empty wastebin".
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure I have all my linguas, l10ns i18ns and everything set up right,
>>>> so
>>>> I think I'm just seeing an intermediate stage in KMail development.
>>>>
>>>> Is anyone else seeing this?
>>>
>>> 	I'm reading this whilst sitting in Perth, Australia so both should read
>>> "Rubbish Bin" or possibly "Wheelie Bin"  ;)
>> One IMAP4 account of mine shows 'Bin' and another shows 'Trash'.  As I 
>> understand it you need to configure the locale on the mail server.
> IMAP itself does not have a concept of "Trash", the creation of such a
> mailbox is the prerogative of the client (unless the server itself feels
> that the imap client doesn't know what it's doing and moves deleted
> emails into a different mailbox; not that I've ever seen a mail server
> do that), therefore changing the locale on the mail server won't help
> and it is indeed something on the client that needs to be changed.
> 

Or maybe wastebin in "empty wastebin" is a simple common noun whereas
the folder called "Trash" is a proper noun.

KDE widgets in my experience often have oddities like this.

If it's something like that, you may have to find the file containing
display strings and change it there

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Wastebin or trash?

[Mick]

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On Wednesday 07 Sep 2016 20:51:51 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 07/09/2016 19:53, Simon Thelen wrote:
> > On 16-09-07 at 18:41, Mick wrote:
> >> On Thursday 08 Sep 2016 00:47:13 Andrew Lowe wrote:
> >>> On 07/09/16 23:45, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> >>>> Hello list,
> >>>> 
> >>>> As I said in the "emerge @system" thread, I've built a fresh ~amd64
> >>>> system
> >>>> on this i7 box. I also created a new user directory for myself, copying
> >>>> in
> >>>> only .bash*, .gkrellm2 and .mozilla.
> >>>> 
> >>>> After spending a good long time setting up KDE and friends just the way
> >>>> I
> >>>> like them, the one remaining task was to set up KMail and import my
> >>>> 1000-or- so messages. That worked all right, with just the one same
> >>>> exception as before: KMail's recycle bin is call "trash" in the folder
> >>>> list, but the right-click menu on it offers to "empty wastebin".
> >>>> 
> >>>> I'm sure I have all my linguas, l10ns i18ns and everything set up
> >>>> right,
> >>>> so
> >>>> I think I'm just seeing an intermediate stage in KMail development.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Is anyone else seeing this?
> >>>> 
> >>> 	I'm reading this whilst sitting in Perth, Australia so both should 
read
> >>> 
> >>> "Rubbish Bin" or possibly "Wheelie Bin"  ;)
> >> 
> >> One IMAP4 account of mine shows 'Bin' and another shows 'Trash'.  As I
> >> understand it you need to configure the locale on the mail server.
> > 
> > IMAP itself does not have a concept of "Trash", the creation of such a
> > mailbox is the prerogative of the client (unless the server itself feels
> > that the imap client doesn't know what it's doing and moves deleted
> > emails into a different mailbox; not that I've ever seen a mail server
> > do that), therefore changing the locale on the mail server won't help
> > and it is indeed something on the client that needs to be changed.

Yes, you're right. The IMAP4 protocol uses tags to signify deleted messages, 
which until they are expunged stay on the server.

Most mail clients typically move messages flagged as deleted into a 
bin/trash/deleted IMAP4 mailbox (i.e. the representation of a mail client 
folder) if configured to do so.  The name of the mailbox is down to the user, 
if created manually, or down to the presets of the mail client GUI.  If a 
webmail or desktop mail client is used, then the language settings (on the 
webmail server or local PC) come into play.

One of my accounts has GB settings, hence the 'bin' folder.  The other appears 
to have US settings, hence the 'trash' folder. 


> Or maybe wastebin in "empty wastebin" is a simple common noun whereas
> the folder called "Trash" is a proper noun.
> 
> KDE widgets in my experience often have oddities like this.
> 
> If it's something like that, you may have to find the file containing
> display strings and change it there

This may be a bit drastic.  In my experience changing locale on the local 
client, or the remote webmail server if one exists sorts this out.

Using local Vs server-side subscriptions on Kmail may affect the outcome 
between different clients.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Wastebin or trash?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday 07 Sep 2016 20:28:27 Mick wrote:
> On Wednesday 07 Sep 2016 20:51:51 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > On 07/09/2016 19:53, Simon Thelen wrote:
> > > On 16-09-07 at 18:41, Mick wrote:
> > >> On Thursday 08 Sep 2016 00:47:13 Andrew Lowe wrote:
> > >>> On 07/09/16 23:45, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > >>>> Hello list,
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> As I said in the "emerge @system" thread, I've built a fresh ~amd64
> > >>>> system
> > >>>> on this i7 box. I also created a new user directory for myself,
> > >>>> copying
> > >>>> in
> > >>>> only .bash*, .gkrellm2 and .mozilla.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> After spending a good long time setting up KDE and friends just the
> > >>>> way
> > >>>> I
> > >>>> like them, the one remaining task was to set up KMail and import my
> > >>>> 1000-or- so messages. That worked all right, with just the one same
> > >>>> exception as before: KMail's recycle bin is call "trash" in the
> > >>>> folder
> > >>>> list, but the right-click menu on it offers to "empty wastebin".
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> I'm sure I have all my linguas, l10ns i18ns and everything set up
> > >>>> right,
> > >>>> so
> > >>>> I think I'm just seeing an intermediate stage in KMail development.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Is anyone else seeing this?
> > >>>> 
> > >>> 	I'm reading this whilst sitting in Perth, Australia so both 
should
> 
> read
> 
> > >>> "Rubbish Bin" or possibly "Wheelie Bin"  ;)
> > >> 
> > >> One IMAP4 account of mine shows 'Bin' and another shows 'Trash'.  As
> > >> I
> > >> understand it you need to configure the locale on the mail server.
> > > 
> > > IMAP itself does not have a concept of "Trash", the creation of such a
> > > mailbox is the prerogative of the client (unless the server itself
> > > feels
> > > that the imap client doesn't know what it's doing and moves deleted
> > > emails into a different mailbox; not that I've ever seen a mail server
> > > do that), therefore changing the locale on the mail server won't help
> > > and it is indeed something on the client that needs to be changed.
> 
> Yes, you're right. The IMAP4 protocol uses tags to signify deleted
> messages, which until they are expunged stay on the server.
> 
> Most mail clients typically move messages flagged as deleted into a
> bin/trash/deleted IMAP4 mailbox (i.e. the representation of a mail client
> folder) if configured to do so.  The name of the mailbox is down to the
> user, if created manually, or down to the presets of the mail client GUI.
>  If a webmail or desktop mail client is used, then the language settings
> (on the webmail server or local PC) come into play.
> 
> One of my accounts has GB settings, hence the 'bin' folder.  The other
> appears to have US settings, hence the 'trash' folder.
> 
> > Or maybe wastebin in "empty wastebin" is a simple common noun whereas
> > the folder called "Trash" is a proper noun.
> > 
> > KDE widgets in my experience often have oddities like this.
> > 
> > If it's something like that, you may have to find the file containing
> > display strings and change it there
> 
> This may be a bit drastic.  In my experience changing locale on the local
> client, or the remote webmail server if one exists sorts this out.
> 
> Using local Vs server-side subscriptions on Kmail may affect the outcome
> between different clients.

Sorry gents, but this has nothing to do with IMAP: the phenomenon is purely 
internal to KMail. Besides, I only have POP3 accounts (which I suppose I 
could have said before but it didn't seem significant).

Alan is closest: it's a matter of string contents somewhere in the KMail 
code. I just don't know whereabouts - nor do I want to fiddle around in the 
guts of the program, which is quite fragile enough already. One thing is 
being defined twice, or else it's defined once and only called in one of the 
two places where it should be, the other being hard coded.

I've noticed both "trash" and "Wastebin" being used at different times over 
the last year, which hints at instability of program design and development 
management systems.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Wastebin or trash?

[Mick]

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On Thursday 08 Sep 2016 09:07:50 Peter Humphrey wrote:

> Sorry gents, but this has nothing to do with IMAP: the phenomenon is purely
> internal to KMail. Besides, I only have POP3 accounts (which I suppose I
> could have said before but it didn't seem significant).

Ahh!  POP3 is just a bucket of messages.  It does not have a concept of 
mailboxes/folders (not on the server anyway).  Local folders and messages 
being dropped into them is a manual exercise by the user, or achieved by 
client filters.  None of this is duplicated on the server.

When you download a message and mark it for deletion, it is not not deleted 
until the server enters the UPDATE stage, when the client quits.  The POP3 
server does not move the deleted message anywhere, in another mailbox and it 
will not mirror any moves of messages into local folders on the client.


> Alan is closest: it's a matter of string contents somewhere in the KMail
> code. I just don't know whereabouts - nor do I want to fiddle around in the
> guts of the program, which is quite fragile enough already. One thing is
> being defined twice, or else it's defined once and only called in one of the
> two places where it should be, the other being hard coded.
> 
> I've noticed both "trash" and "Wastebin" being used at different times over
> the last year, which hints at instability of program design and development
> management systems.

Interestingly, my "Local Folders" contains a "trash" folder.  I don't use 
local folders (all my accounts are IMAP4) so I haven't paid attention to this 
trash folder, or its name.  I recall though that sometimes deleted messages 
end up there, if the IMAP account is offline when I happened to delete the 
message.  From my failing memory I can attest this local folder has been 
always called "trash", but I could well be mistaken.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Wastebin or trash?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday 08 Sep 2016 21:52:19 Mick wrote:
> On Thursday 08 Sep 2016 09:07:50 Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > Sorry gents, but this has nothing to do with IMAP: the phenomenon is
> > purely internal to KMail. Besides, I only have POP3 accounts (which I
> > suppose I could have said before but it didn't seem significant).
> 
> Ahh!  POP3 is just a bucket of messages.  It does not have a concept of
> mailboxes/folders (not on the server anyway).  Local folders and messages
> being dropped into them is a manual exercise by the user, or achieved by
> client filters.  None of this is duplicated on the server.
> 
> When you download a message and mark it for deletion, it is not not
> deleted until the server enters the UPDATE stage, when the client quits. 
> The POP3 server does not move the deleted message anywhere, in another
> mailbox and it will not mirror any moves of messages into local folders
> on the client.

Yes, of course I know all that. It's why I see the problem lying at KMail's 
door.

> > Alan is closest: it's a matter of string contents somewhere in the KMail
> > code. I just don't know whereabouts - nor do I want to fiddle around in
> > the guts of the program, which is quite fragile enough already. One
> > thing is being defined twice, or else it's defined once and only called
> > in one of the two places where it should be, the other being hard
> > coded.
> > 
> > I've noticed both "trash" and "Wastebin" being used at different times
> > over the last year, which hints at instability of program design and
> > development management systems.
> 
> Interestingly, my "Local Folders" contains a "trash" folder.  I don't use
> local folders (all my accounts are IMAP4) so I haven't paid attention to
> this trash folder, or its name.  I recall though that sometimes deleted
> messages end up there, if the IMAP account is offline when I happened to
> delete the message.  From my failing memory I can attest this local
> folder has been always called "trash", but I could well be mistaken.

I wonder now whether it was worth starting this thread at all.  :P

-- 
Rgds
Peter

[gentoo-user] Re: Wastebin or trash?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2016-09-07, Simon Thelen <gentoo-user@c-14.de> wrote:

> IMAP itself does not have a concept of "Trash", the creation of such
> a mailbox is the prerogative of the client (unless the server itself
> feels that the imap client doesn't know what it's doing and moves
> deleted emails into a different mailbox; not that I've ever seen a
> mail server do that),

Gmail's IMAP server doesn't do that exact thing, but it does have some
similar, sometimes odd-seeming, behaviors due to behind-the-curtains
stuff it does because IMAP mailboxes being mapped into Gmail labels.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I just got my PRINCE
                                  at               bumper sticker ... But now
                              gmail.com            I can't remember WHO he
                                                   is ...