From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F9B01381F3 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 16:02:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 392A7E0ABF; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 16:02:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [209.132.183.28]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11E25E0AB0 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 16:02:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from int-mx01.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx01.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.11]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r3SG24IX031908 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:02:05 -0400 Received: from [10.10.61.135] (vpn-61-135.rdu2.redhat.com [10.10.61.135]) by int-mx01.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r3SG235p009596 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:02:04 -0400 Message-ID: <1367164922.2194.182.camel@localhost> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio From: Randy Barlow To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:02:02 -0400 In-Reply-To: <517CF311.4070808@gmail.com> References: <20130418193224.GA3234@acm.acm> <5170F203.3@gmail.com> <20130420093414.GA31686@waltdnes.org> <20130425191724.GA14098@waltdnes.org> <517A6D7D.7080708@yandex.ru> <517AC16D.6060400@yandex.ru> <517ADABA.1040006@yandex.ru> <1367078136.2194.132.camel@localhost> <517C3168.1000404@gmail.com> <1367108690.2194.160.camel@localhost> <517CF311.4070808@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.5.11.11 X-Archives-Salt: bbfb229c-aede-4ad9-a396-b22af113a7ce X-Archives-Hash: 016f727b87e5ff55168fec50f9a35036 On Sun, 2013-04-28 at 11:59 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > You don't say what your project is, but reading between the lines I > think it's safe to assume it's a somewhat niche project with specific > goals that solves a specific problem, right? This is true (I almost typed True. That's what happens when you code 8 days a week.) > Such projects come with their dep list as you pointed out and this only > affects the machines that project runs on. In eight years hanging out on > this list I don't recall any cases of users complaining about deps of > projects in such a class. > > What we complain about here is basic low-level software changes that > affect much more than just their own little universe, and will do it ON > ALL LINUX MACHINES NOW AND IN THE FUTURE. Well, this will be the case if nobody forks these projects, or writes competing projects. As Dale has pointed out, there already is eudev. For systemd, you have OpenRC as an alternative. For Pulse, you can just use a different DE. I understand that you don't like the direction that these projects are going, and I'm not attempting to convince you to like or use them. I'm just trying to point out that there are viable alternatives. Perhaps you are concerned that Gentoo will require these technologies? That might happen, I don't know one way or the other. If it does, there's always the possibility of forking Gentoo itself (there are already a handful of Gentoo derivatives.) > That is a whole different kettle of fish entirely and is interpreted > very differently from what your project does, this is the point where > the analogies break down. Regardless of how similar two things may > appear on technical merit, the reaction of users is always the deciding > factor. Fair enough. > udev rules changed network names for all recently updated Linux machines > everywhere. > Separate /usr caused changes to many machines not using an initrd, and > will continue to do that for all time. > systemd changes how sysadmins start and shutdown their machines, and how > that works for every service on the host whether the sysadmin likes it > or not. > PA makes deep changes to how the machines handles sound, and the user > for the most part never agreed to have those changes. The user agreed to > use Gnome and the change came in from left field unexpected. Yeah, I fully understand why you don't like these. I don't fully like them either, to be honest. I too experienced some inconveniences during my upgrades, particularly around udev. However, in my case, I'm willing to accept it. For you, there are alternatives. > With your project, the user knows upfront they will need MongoDB, they > make an informed decision about this before ever emerging your code at > all. So your analogy doesn't really hold true. A much better analogy > would be if your project used MySQL and one day you required them to > upgrade to Oracle (and not the free one either...). Plus, you don't > really give them a choice - you also say that all support for all > currently released versions will end in 6-12 months. You are giving the > *apparency* of choice, whilst creating the *reality* of no (or very > little) choice. Does this not look to you a lot like lock-in? Yeah, I think I understand more where you are coming from. And I do see how my project is different. My project is unlikely to be installed by default on all the major Linux distributions, so there's no worry that we will be bringing MongoDB to be on each distribution. I just want people to focus on the fact that there is still choice. You are not alone in your dislike for these technologies, and for you there are options. Yeah, maybe you will be using a technology that is only used by a minority, but we're all used to that on this list, right? :) -- Randy Barlow