[gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[mvidela]

Por las nuevas políticas de calidad ISO 9001 que la empresa está implementando, todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico deben ser realizadas al correo electrónico soporte@asesconsulting.com. 

Muchas gracias y disculpe las molestías.

Automáticamente este email será reenvio a soporte@asesconsuting.com



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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Iain Buchanan]

On Mon, 2008-03-03 at 04:04 -0200, mvidela@ases.com.ar wrote:
> Por las nuevas políticas de calidad ISO 9001 que la empresa está
> implementando, todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico deben
> ser realizadas al correo electrónico soporte@asesconsulting.com. 
> 
> Muchas gracias y disculpe las molestías.
> 
> Automáticamente este email será reenvio a soporte@asesconsuting.com

Is this spam or what?  I seem to be getting the same message over and
over to this list...
-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

Life is like an analogy.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Dale]

Iain Buchanan wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-03-03 at 04:04 -0200, mvidela@ases.com.ar wrote:
>   
>> Por las nuevas políticas de calidad ISO 9001 que la empresa está
>> implementando, todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico deben
>> ser realizadas al correo electrónico soporte@asesconsulting.com. 
>>
>> Muchas gracias y disculpe las molestías.
>>
>> Automáticamente este email será reenvio a soporte@asesconsuting.com
>>     
>
> Is this spam or what?  I seem to be getting the same message over and
> over to this list...
>   


I don't know the language but reading between the lines, this is my 
thoughts.  This person has subscribed to the digest version of this 
list.  They have set their email to send a "vacation reply".  So, every 
time he/she gets a email of the digest version, it sends out a reply 
that he/she is not there to read the email.  Not that we really care 
that he/she is not there to read it.  ;-)

[humor]

I'm thinking we send him a email that has a attachment that shuts down 
his email program.  That way it will not send all those out telling us 
he is on vacation plus his spam mail will not be getting confirmation 
that the address is valid.

[/humor]


Make sense to you?

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-) 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Jan Seeger]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly:
On Mon, 03. Mar, mvidela@ases.com.ar spammed my inbox with 
> Por las nuevas políticas de calidad ISO 9001 que la empresa está implementando, todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico deben ser realizadas al correo electrónico soporte@asesconsulting.com. 
Due to the new ISO9001 norm being implemented, all technical support requests
(relations?) should be taken to soporte@aseconsulting.com
> Muchas gracias y disculpe las molestías.
Thanks and sorry for the inconvenience
> Automáticamente este email será reenvio a soporte@asesconsuting.com
This email has automatically been resent to soporte@caseconsulting.com

The person at the other email adress probably thinks he still gets the mails
normally, so he shouldn't do anything...

Regards,
Jan

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Dale]

Jan Seeger wrote:
> NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly:
> On Mon, 03. Mar, mvidela@ases.com.ar spammed my inbox with
> > Por las nuevas políticas de calidad ISO 9001 que la empresa está 
> implementando, todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico deben 
> ser realizadas al correo electrónico soporte@asesconsulting.com.
> Due to the new ISO9001 norm being implemented, all technical support 
> requests
> (relations?) should be taken to soporte@aseconsulting.com
> > Muchas gracias y disculpe las molestías.
> Thanks and sorry for the inconvenience
> > Automáticamente este email será reenvio a soporte@asesconsuting.com
> This email has automatically been resent to soporte@caseconsulting.com
>
> The person at the other email adress probably thinks he still gets the 
> mails
> normally, so he shouldn't do anything...
>
> Regards,
> Jan
>


Since you can read it, is there any way to stop the messages?  Over time 
this could become a problem.

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-) 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

On Monday 3 March 2008, Jan Seeger wrote:

> NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly:
> On Mon, 03. Mar, mvidela@ases.com.ar spammed my inbox with
>
> > todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico 
>
> all technical support requests (relations?) 

all technical support-related issues 

Ok, not that it changes much... :-)
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Iain Buchanan]

Just in case anyone else was thinking of doing so, I contacted the two
email addresses concerned off list and asked nicely for them to do
something :)

-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

It was one of those perfect summer days -- the sun was shining, a breeze
was blowing, the birds were singing, and the lawn mower was broken ...
		--- James Dent

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Re: [gentoo-user] [joke] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Daniel Iliev]

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:07:55 +0930
Iain Buchanan <iaindb@netspace.net.au> wrote:

> Just in case anyone else was thinking of doing so, I contacted the two
> email addresses concerned off list and asked nicely for them to do
> something :)
> 

Should they? Perhaps it's a part of "the new ISO9001 norm being
implemented" at their site?

...just kidding :)

-- 
Best regards,
Daniel
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Stroller]

On 3 Mar 2008, at 09:57, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:

> On Monday 3 March 2008, Jan Seeger wrote:
>
>> NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly:
>> On Mon, 03. Mar, mvidela@ases.com.ar spammed my inbox with
>>
>>> todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico
>>
>> all technical support requests (relations?)
>
> all technical support-related issues
>
> Ok, not that it changes much... :-)

Noooo! It changes EVERYTHING!!

"Issue" is word to describe an individual periodical in a series of  
publications, and is a weasel-word when it's used as a synonym for  
"problem".

Clearly if your computer isn't booting it's a PROBLEM, not merely an  
"issue", so we can tell that the author of the email is engaged in  
the sort of environment where weasel-words are employed.

I have dealt with such technical support departments in the past - I  
knew of one at which the management insisted that staff were not  
allowed to describe a dead PC as a problem because that "sounds too  
downbeat". Such scenarios were to be passed off to the customer as  
merely "an issue" ("however seriously we're addressing your issue,  
sir"), rather than the disaster it actually was.

</pet peeve>

Stroller.--
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

On Monday 3 March 2008, Stroller wrote:
> On 3 Mar 2008, at 09:57, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:
> > On Monday 3 March 2008, Jan Seeger wrote:
> >> NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly:
> >> On Mon, 03. Mar, mvidela@ases.com.ar spammed my inbox with
> >>
> >>> todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico
> >>
> >> all technical support requests (relations?)
> >
> > all technical support-related issues
> >
> > Ok, not that it changes much... :-)
>
> Noooo! It changes EVERYTHING!!
>
> "Issue" is word to describe an individual periodical in a series of
> publications, and is a weasel-word when it's used as a synonym for
> "problem".

Ok. Literally, the word "tema" (pl. temas) would mean "subject, theme, 
topic, matter". The degree of "problematic-ness" intended by whoever 
wrote "temas" can't of course be deduced, but only guessed.
In my interpretation, I took "todos los temas relacionados con soporte 
técnico" as meaning "anything related to technical support", so issue 
seemed an acceptable translation (where "issues" include "problems" as 
well, of course). 
Also, I've seen many times "if you have issues, call 123456-789". In my 
understanding, no doubt I'll call that technical support number if I 
have issues, faults or problems (however serious they may be).
But english is not my native language, so I could very well be mistaken 
in my understanding.

> Clearly if your computer isn't booting it's a PROBLEM, not merely an
> "issue", so we can tell that the author of the email is engaged in
> the sort of environment where weasel-words are employed.
>
> I have dealt with such technical support departments in the past - I
> knew of one at which the management insisted that staff were not
> allowed to describe a dead PC as a problem because that "sounds too
> downbeat". Such scenarios were to be passed off to the customer as
> merely "an issue" ("however seriously we're addressing your issue,
> sir"), rather than the disaster it actually was.
>
> </pet peeve>

Agreed. I know that kind of environment.

So, are you saying that "issue" means "nuisance" or "minor problem" 
rather than "real problem", and using the word to mean "problem" is 
incorrect? Or you just hate it when they say "issue" when they really 
should say "disaster" (in this case, I totally agree with you)?
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Uwe Thiem]

On Monday 03 March 2008, Stroller wrote:
> On 3 Mar 2008, at 09:57, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:
> > On Monday 3 March 2008, Jan Seeger wrote:
> >> NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly:
> >> On Mon, 03. Mar, mvidela@ases.com.ar spammed my inbox with
> >>
> >>> todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico
> >>
> >> all technical support requests (relations?)
> >
> > all technical support-related issues
> >
> > Ok, not that it changes much... :-)
>
> Noooo! It changes EVERYTHING!!
>
> "Issue" is word to describe an individual periodical in a series of
> publications, and is a weasel-word when it's used as a synonym for
> "problem".

You are argueing about the English translation of a Spanish word, done 
by someone that most probably isn't a certified translator. The word 
at issue (please excuse the pun) isn't "issues" but the Spanish 
word "temas" - and I doubt it can be described as a weasel-word in 
this context.

Uwe

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Stroller]

On 3 Mar 2008, at 15:17, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:

> On Monday 3 March 2008, Stroller wrote:
>> On 3 Mar 2008, at 09:57, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:
>>> On Monday 3 March 2008, Jan Seeger wrote:
>>>> NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly:
>>>> On Mon, 03. Mar, mvidela@ases.com.ar spammed my inbox with
>>>>
>>>>> todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico
>>>>
>>>> all technical support requests (relations?)
>>>
>>> all technical support-related issues
>>>
>>> Ok, not that it changes much... :-)
>>
>> Noooo! It changes EVERYTHING!!
>>
>> "Issue" is word to describe an individual periodical in a series of
>> publications, and is a weasel-word when it's used as a synonym for
>> "problem".
>
> Ok. Literally, the word "tema" (pl. temas) would mean "subject, theme,
> topic, matter". The degree of "problematic-ness" intended by whoever
> wrote "temas" can't of course be deduced, but only guessed.
> In my interpretation, I took "todos los temas relacionados con soporte
> técnico" as meaning "anything related to technical support", so issue
> seemed an acceptable translation (where "issues" include "problems" as
> well, of course).

Hi Etaoin,

I didn't mean to be picky about your translation, so my apologies for  
that. And thank you to Uwe for pointing that out - I didn't intend to  
be taken that way, I just wanted to have a little rant about one of  
my (least) favourite words.

However you can also say in English "all matters relating to  
technical support".


>> Clearly if your computer isn't booting it's a PROBLEM, not merely an
>> "issue", so we can tell that the author of the email is engaged in
>> the sort of environment where weasel-words are employed.
>>
>> I have dealt with such technical support departments in the past - I
>> knew of one at which the management insisted that staff were not
>> allowed to describe a dead PC as a problem because that "sounds too
>> downbeat". Such scenarios were to be passed off to the customer as
>> merely "an issue" ("however seriously we're addressing your issue,
>> sir"), rather than the disaster it actually was.
>>
>> </pet peeve>
>
> Agreed. I know that kind of environment.
>
> So, are you saying that "issue" means "nuisance" or "minor problem"
> rather than "real problem", and using the word to mean "problem" is
> incorrect? Or you just hate it when they say "issue" when they really
> should say "disaster" (in this case, I totally agree with you)?

Issue kinda doesn't mean any of these things - neither "nuisance" nor  
"minor problem" nor "real problem". It's a way of _avoiding_ saying  
any of these things at all.

The dictionary I have on this computer is the New Oxford American  
one, and it basically says:

   issue, noun
   1 an important topic for debate or discussion : the issue of  
global warming | money is not an issue

This dictionary goes on to observe the "he has issues" usage, but  
really this is just the same (fairly recent) euphemism.

The best way (IMO) to perceive the word "issue" is the global warming  
one or the couple who are "going to marriage counselling because they  
have issues (to talk about)". In the former case it's a matter of  
public debate, in which everyone has a view and in which people are  
entitled to opposite views; in the latter case there are likewise two  
ways to see the situation and the solution will be found through  
discussion and compromise. An "issue" is a two-way street, in which  
opinions go both ways.

The use of the word "issue" within technical support is wide, and so  
you'd never lose marks for using it in a translation as you have; I  
suppose I must admit that - with the evolution of language - the word  
has perhaps become a synonym for "problem". But this usage is a bit  
of co-optation - one doesn't like to admit one's software has  
problems, so one uses the word "issue" instead. "Problem" sounds so  
negative, an "issue" is just something to be worked through.

As I say, my objection to this usage stems from one company whose  
staff were prohibited from the use of the word "problem". But  
technical support problems are frequently NOT a two-way street, and  
they're not something for discussion & compromise the way your  
spouse's habits might be. If I've bought software from you and it  
crashes every time I press print it truly IS a problem, and use of  
the word "issue" to describe this is, IMO, weasly.

I hope this helps to explain this fairly obscure entomology. I don't  
pretend to be a definitive source (I'm not a dictionary), and mine is  
perhaps a bit of a minority opinion. But as a non-native speaker I  
guess you may be interested in why I said what I did, so hopefully  
this clarifies.

Stroller.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

On Monday 3 March 2008, Stroller wrote:

> I didn't mean to be picky about your translation, so my apologies for
> that. And thank you to Uwe for pointing that out - I didn't intend to
> be taken that way, I just wanted to have a little rant about one of
> my (least) favourite words.

No offense at all. Instead, I was genuinely interested in finding out 
whether I was missing something.  

> Issue kinda doesn't mean any of these things - neither "nuisance" nor
> "minor problem" nor "real problem". It's a way of _avoiding_ saying
> any of these things at all.
>
> The dictionary I have on this computer is the New Oxford American
> one, and it basically says:
>
>    issue, noun
>    1 an important topic for debate or discussion : the issue of
> global warming | money is not an issue
>
> This dictionary goes on to observe the "he has issues" usage, but
> really this is just the same (fairly recent) euphemism.
>
> The best way (IMO) to perceive the word "issue" is the global warming
> one or the couple who are "going to marriage counselling because they
> have issues (to talk about)". In the former case it's a matter of
> public debate, in which everyone has a view and in which people are
> entitled to opposite views; in the latter case there are likewise two
> ways to see the situation and the solution will be found through
> discussion and compromise. An "issue" is a two-way street, in which
> opinions go both ways.

Thanks. This covers and goes well beyond the simple meaning of "matter, 
subject" that I was assigning to the word.

> The use of the word "issue" within technical support is wide, and so
> you'd never lose marks for using it in a translation as you have; I
> suppose I must admit that - with the evolution of language - the word
> has perhaps become a synonym for "problem". But this usage is a bit
> of co-optation - one doesn't like to admit one's software has
> problems, so one uses the word "issue" instead. "Problem" sounds so
> negative, an "issue" is just something to be worked through.

I usually like to call a spade a spade (I think this is the english idiom 
for the concept), so "problem" is perfectly fine for me in these cases. 
Moreover, I'm the first to admit my faults, so if something I did or 
wrote does not work, I have no problem (pardon the pun) in saying that 
it has a problem unlike, as you point out, some companies or technical 
support departments (but it seems to me that the same holds for many 
politicians, managers, etc.).

> As I say, my objection to this usage stems from one company whose
> staff were prohibited from the use of the word "problem". But
> technical support problems are frequently NOT a two-way street, and
> they're not something for discussion & compromise the way your
> spouse's habits might be. If I've bought software from you and it
> crashes every time I press print it truly IS a problem, and use of
> the word "issue" to describe this is, IMO, weasly.

Yes, I guess it may be called an euphemism (usually coupled with some 
amount of hypocrisy, in my modest experience).

> I hope this helps to explain this fairly obscure entomology. I don't
> pretend to be a definitive source (I'm not a dictionary), and mine is
> perhaps a bit of a minority opinion. But as a non-native speaker I
> guess you may be interested in why I said what I did, so hopefully
> this clarifies.

Surely I was interested, and I thank you for your detailed explanation.
You cleared all my issues! :-)
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1481 bytes --]

On Monday 03 March 2008, Uwe Thiem wrote:
> On Monday 03 March 2008, Stroller wrote:
> > On 3 Mar 2008, at 09:57, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:
> > > On Monday 3 March 2008, Jan Seeger wrote:
> > >> NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly:
> > >> On Mon, 03. Mar, mvidela@ases.com.ar spammed my inbox with
> > >>
> > >>> todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico
> > >>
> > >> all technical support requests (relations?)
> > >
> > > all technical support-related issues
> > >
> > > Ok, not that it changes much... :-)
> >
> > Noooo! It changes EVERYTHING!!
> >
> > "Issue" is word to describe an individual periodical in a series of
> > publications, and is a weasel-word when it's used as a synonym for
> > "problem".
>
> You are argueing about the English translation of a Spanish word, done
> by someone that most probably isn't a certified translator. The word
> at issue (please excuse the pun) isn't "issues" but the Spanish
> word "temas" - and I doubt it can be described as a weasel-word in
> this context.

Depending on the particular discipline context "issue" can also mean a risk 
that has now been realised/manifested;  the familiar "oh sh*t!" moment, e.g. 
when you realised that rm -Rf / was not what you meant to have entered . . . 
before that moment you had a risk, afterwards an "issue".

For the avoidance of doubt I suggest that we check what ISO 9001 defines the 
term "issue" as.  ;-)
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 748 bytes --]

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 08:29:01 +0000, Mick wrote:

> Depending on the particular discipline context "issue" can also mean a
> risk that has now been realised/manifested;  the familiar "oh sh*t!"
> moment, e.g. when you realised that rm -Rf / was not what you meant to
> have entered . . . before that moment you had a risk, afterwards an
> "issue".

No, you have a problem, or, as the motivators like to put it, an
opportunity!

I'm with stroller on this, the real meaning of issue has been subverted
by spin doctors so they can say problem without using the word problem.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

NOTICE:
  --  THE ELEVATORS WILL BE OUT OF ORDER TODAY  --
  (The nearest working elevators are in the building
   across the street.)

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 04 March 2008 10:19:39 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 08:29:01 +0000, Mick wrote:
> > Depending on the particular discipline context "issue" can also mean a
> > risk that has now been realised/manifested;  the familiar "oh sh*t!"
> > moment, e.g. when you realised that rm -Rf / was not what you meant to
> > have entered . . . before that moment you had a risk, afterwards an
> > "issue".
>
> No, you have a problem, or, as the motivators like to put it, an
> opportunity!
>
> I'm with stroller on this, the real meaning of issue has been subverted
> by spin doctors so they can say problem without using the word problem.

I agree.

It's another euphemism progress, like water-closet > lavatory > bathroom > 
rest-room etc. (I've probably missed some links in that chain). Someone 
dislikes an aspect of the original word - "fault" in this case - and 
euphemises it to "problem", then that becomes tainted with the original 
association and it gets downgraded again to "issue". Anyone want to 
speculate what will come next?

I'm all for people saying what they mean - someone referred to spades 
earlier, I think. Impressions of favourability should come a distant second 
to accuracy.

-- 
Rgds
Peter
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Graham Murray]

Peter Humphrey <peter@humphrey.ukfsn.org> writes:

> It's another euphemism progress, like water-closet > lavatory > bathroom > 
> rest-room etc. (I've probably missed some links in that chain). Someone 
> dislikes an aspect of the original word - "fault" in this case - and 
> euphemises it to "problem", then that becomes tainted with the original 
> association and it gets downgraded again to "issue". Anyone want to 
> speculate what will come next?

It already has. I have heard bugs and unexpected behaviour referred to
as 'features'.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)

[Iain Buchanan]

On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 11:51 +0000, Graham Murray wrote:
> Peter Humphrey <peter@humphrey.ukfsn.org> writes:
> 
> > It's another euphemism progress, like water-closet > lavatory > bathroom > 
> > rest-room etc. (I've probably missed some links in that chain). Someone 
> > dislikes an aspect of the original word - "fault" in this case - and 
> > euphemises it to "problem", then that becomes tainted with the original 
> > association and it gets downgraded again to "issue". Anyone want to 
> > speculate what will come next?
> 
> It already has. I have heard bugs and unexpected behaviour referred to
> as 'features'.

that's been a long standing joke "it's not a bug, it's a feature".  We
use it all the time (but not to customers).

What really comes next is: Ticket.

That's right, you no longer have a bug, problem, or issue.  You just
have a ticket number.  Your email has automatically been assigned the
ticket number 12345...

-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

If I love you, what business is it of yours?
		-- Johann van Goethe

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