* Re: [gentoo-user] Should we NEVER do an ``emerge -u world''?
2006-09-27 18:04 ` sdoma
@ 2006-09-27 18:21 ` sdoma
2006-09-27 19:56 ` Wolfgang Illmeyer
2006-09-27 20:43 ` Mick
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: sdoma @ 2006-09-27 18:21 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Again top-posting :)
One thing for you before I leave:
I know that it is possible to avoid installation of unwanted upgrades
using portage, but I don't like to have to say my comp what NOT TO DO. I
await from my comp to do what I say it TO DO because I'm (mostly)
knowing what I'm doing.
F.
PS: Imagine you send your wife buying some food. What is more
applicable? Telling her what to buy or telling her what not to buy?
On Wed, 2006-09-27 at 20:04 +0200, sdoma wrote:
> I've tried to get documentoin for Tcl/tk, put 'doc' into the package.use
> for these files and re-emerged tcl and tk (BTW: no docs for these
> packages came up). emerge told me, that there is a new version of
> portage available and that it is HIGHLY recommended to upgrade portage.
> I did so and 87 packages where upgraded, amongst this glibc to 2.4, what
> hurts me now because I planned to install Oracle, which requires
> glibc2.3.
> Seems x86 or ~x86 doesn't make much a difference. I reinstalled the
> system not so long ago with x86 fo this reason.
>
> I remember the same problems a couple of times in the past. /etc/fstab
> was "upgraded" to the initial one (the one with /dev/BOOT and dev/ROOT
> inside resulting in a not booting system), networking stopped working
> letting me on my own, stopping hotplug (and historical
> coldplug-nonsense) functionality, udev.rules where replaced by some
> initial one for a syntax change in udev (using ``sed'' would be a better
> choice here) ...
>
> Just a minor thing, before I realized the USB problem, I was working on
> 'localhost:unknown-domain' after the "upgrade".
>
> I'm really sick of solving the same problems again and again. Seems
> Gentoo is a system for students not needing their comps to be working.
>
> For me it looks at this point like: "Every other distribution is a
> better choice for somebody who needs his machine for work". I don't like
> to say that, but this is my expirience. :((((((((((((((
>
> Regards
> Frank
>
>
> PS: X-cuse me top-posting. This is a really exportant issue, and I'm
> disturbing it. ;-(
>
> PS 2: Co work with LFS! They have the same target (get people to know
> the functionality of Linux). I'll install some working distro which is
> conform with other POSIX compliant systems ... with a tear in my
> eye. :((((((((((((
>
>
> On Wed, 2006-09-27 at 18:31 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:48:20 +0200, sdoma wrote:
> >
> > > I'm running 2.6.17.6.
> > > It worked before the upgrade
> >
> > Which upgrade? emerge -u world could update one package or a hundred.
> > Which packages were upgraded?
> >
> > Please don't top-post.
> >
> >
>
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] Should we NEVER do an ``emerge -u world''?
2006-09-27 18:21 ` sdoma
@ 2006-09-27 19:56 ` Wolfgang Illmeyer
0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Illmeyer @ 2006-09-27 19:56 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Am Mittwoch, 27. September 2006 20:21 schrieb sdoma:
> Again top-posting :)
> One thing for you before I leave:
> I know that it is possible to avoid installation of unwanted upgrades
> using portage, but I don't like to have to say my comp what NOT TO DO. I
> await from my comp to do what I say it TO DO because I'm (mostly)
> knowing what I'm doing.
>
> F.
>
> PS: Imagine you send your wife buying some food. What is more
> applicable? Telling her what to buy or telling her what not to buy?
So where's your problem? You say emerge -u world, and it updates world...
You can also try --pretend to see what you're doing before it's too late.
And seemingly, you also told etc-update to overwrite your fstab, and it did ;)
/Wolfgang
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Should we NEVER do an ``emerge -u world''?
2006-09-27 18:04 ` sdoma
2006-09-27 18:21 ` sdoma
@ 2006-09-27 20:43 ` Mick
[not found] ` <20060927211301.48c491a3@hactar.digimed.co.uk>
2006-09-27 20:46 ` [gentoo-user] " Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
3 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Mick @ 2006-09-27 20:43 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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Hi Frank,
On Wednesday 27 September 2006 19:04, sdoma wrote:
> I've tried to get documentoin for Tcl/tk, put 'doc' into the package.use
> for these files and re-emerged tcl and tk (BTW: no docs for these
> packages came up).
A search in Gmane on this ML, or the Gentoo forums will provide you with an
answer and a way forward for this problem (I'm not using it myself so I am
not sure what the answer is).
> emerge told me, that there is a new version of
> portage available and that it is HIGHLY recommended to upgrade portage.
Yes, it is generally good practice to upgrade portage when it tells you to do
so.
> I did so and 87 packages where upgraded, amongst this glibc to 2.4, what
> hurts me now because I planned to install Oracle, which requires
> glibc2.3.
There was a recent update of gcc and glibc and there have been detailed
instructions on the gentoo documentation (gcc), on this ML (both gcc & glibc)
and the forums. With regards to Oracle, you may need to temporarily upgrade
to an unstable package while devs catch up with the upgraded system tools -
search the ML and forums because I'm afraid do not use Oracle to know what's
the solution with this problem.
> Seems x86 or ~x86 doesn't make much a difference. I reinstalled the
> system not so long ago with x86 fo this reason.
It does make a difference if you update often (on average you will be emerging
many more packages running a ~ARCH). Less so if you update once in a blue
moon. Also, a stable system is <aheam> 'stable'? Well, most of the time it
is more stable than running on the bleeding edge.
> I remember the same problems a couple of times in the past. /etc/fstab
> was "upgraded" to the initial one (the one with /dev/BOOT and dev/ROOT
> inside resulting in a not booting system), networking stopped working
> letting me on my own, stopping hotplug (and historical
> coldplug-nonsense) functionality, udev.rules where replaced by some
> initial one for a syntax change in udev (using ``sed'' would be a better
> choice here) ...
No critical configuration files are blindly updated/upgraded. I do not know
of /etc/fstab ever being updated automatically without first *asking* you
what you want to do. etc-update, dispatch-conf et al will always ask what to
do with /etc/fstab (unless you have tweaked the list of directories/files
that they are checking).
> Just a minor thing, before I realized the USB problem, I was working on
> 'localhost:unknown-domain' after the "upgrade".
/etc/conf.d/net changed as part of a new baselayout upgrade.
> I'm really sick of solving the same problems again and again. Seems
> Gentoo is a system for students not needing their comps to be working.
>
> For me it looks at this point like: "Every other distribution is a
> better choice for somebody who needs his machine for work". I don't like
> to say that, but this is my expirience. :((((((((((((((
I actually do use my machine for work. I upgrade little and often (every 2-3
days), except for big system upgrades which I save for the weekend just in
case things go tits-up. I have broadly found Gentoo's updates and upgrades
when managed intelligently to be less disruptive than re-installing afresh
Fedora, or SUSE every six months (I haven't tried other distros).
Furthermore the choice of Gentoo applications and their ability to
intelligently handle a plethora of dependencies makes it much easier to run
an updated machine, than at least the other two distros I have just
mentioned.
> Regards
> Frank
>
> PS: X-cuse me top-posting. This is a really exportant issue, and I'm
> disturbing it. ;-(
Until people eventually give up trying to help you.
> PS 2: Co work with LFS! They have the same target (get people to know
> the functionality of Linux). I'll install some working distro which is
> conform with other POSIX compliant systems ... with a tear in my
> eye. :((((((((((((
The Gentoo meta-distribution provides greater freedom of choice in shaping
your system to your preferences. The trade-off is the user time that needs
to be invested in implementing it. On the other hand if one of the numerous
distros offered by the wider Linux community fits your needs better straight
out of the box - then go for it! WRT your comment on LFS, I would not think
that Gentoo's primary driver is the same like LFX, although greater knowledge
of Linux and Gentoo is a much welcomed side effect (at least by some of us ;)
--
Regards,
Mick
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* [gentoo-user] Re: Should we NEVER do an ``emerge -u world''?
[not found] ` <20060927211301.48c491a3@hactar.digimed.co.uk>
@ 2006-09-27 20:44 ` Alexander Skwar
2006-09-27 22:10 ` Neil Bothwick
0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Alexander Skwar @ 2006-09-27 20:44 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
· Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>:
> If you don't understand exactly what the -5 option in etc-update will do,
> don't use it. If you do understand, you probably won't use it anyway.
Uhm, I've got to disagree. I use -5 quite often. I have a look at
the list of files and if I *KNOW* that I did not touch those files,
I'm very happy "-5'ing" etc-update, so to say.
So, yes, if you do understand, you probably will use it.
Alexander Skwar
--
See, these two penguins walked into a bar, which was really stupid, 'cause
the second one should have seen it.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Should we NEVER do an ``emerge -u world''?
2006-09-27 20:44 ` [gentoo-user] " Alexander Skwar
@ 2006-09-27 22:10 ` Neil Bothwick
2006-09-27 22:59 ` Joe Menola
2006-09-29 5:41 ` [gentoo-user] " Alexander Skwar
0 siblings, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2006-09-27 22:10 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:44:40 +0200, Alexander Skwar wrote:
> > If you don't understand exactly what the -5 option in etc-update will
> > do, don't use it. If you do understand, you probably won't use it
> > anyway.
>
> Uhm, I've got to disagree. I use -5 quite often. I have a look at
> the list of files and if I *KNOW* that I did not touch those files,
> I'm very happy "-5'ing" etc-update, so to say.
>
> So, yes, if you do understand, you probably will use it.
Not in the way that causes the problems, of -5ing everything. When i used
etc-update, I wuld go through the list, accepting some changes and
rejecting others, then -5 the remainder, which were often example configs.
That's not the same as -5ing everything, which is what I was referring to
and the easy way to toast /etc/fstab.
--
Neil Bothwick
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I
can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it."
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Should we NEVER do an ``emerge -u world''?
2006-09-27 22:10 ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2006-09-27 22:59 ` Joe Menola
2006-09-28 0:26 ` Neil Bothwick
` (2 more replies)
2006-09-29 5:41 ` [gentoo-user] " Alexander Skwar
1 sibling, 3 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Joe Menola @ 2006-09-27 22:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Wednesday 27 September 2006 5:10 pm, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> That's not the same as -5ing everything, which is what I was referring to
> and the easy way to toast /etc/fstab.
Can you give an example of *any* situation that would make updating fstab
sensible?
Should never even be considered or an option, IMO.
Important etc files should be placed in .example form and the user warned that
editting is required.
Etc-update has always been the thorn in Gentoo. Again, IMO.
-jm
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Should we NEVER do an ``emerge -u world''?
2006-09-27 22:59 ` Joe Menola
@ 2006-09-28 0:26 ` Neil Bothwick
2006-09-28 0:50 ` Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
2006-09-28 2:29 ` Bruno Lustosa
2 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2006-09-28 0:26 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:59:55 -0500, Joe Menola wrote:
> Can you give an example of *any* situation that would make updating
> fstab sensible?
> Should never even be considered or an option, IMO.
> Important etc files should be placed in .example form and the user
> warned that editting is required.
> Etc-update has always been the thorn in Gentoo. Again, IMO.
I've always felt that fstab, along with a couple of others, should not be
in baselayout, since it should never be "upgraded". There was a patch for
dispatch-conf that allowed you to "freeze" some files so it would never
even offer to update them, but it hasn't been updated for nearly two
years and doesn't work with more recent versions.
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68618
--
Neil Bothwick
Celery is not food. It is a member of the plywood family.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Should we NEVER do an ``emerge -u world''?
2006-09-27 22:59 ` Joe Menola
2006-09-28 0:26 ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2006-09-28 0:50 ` Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
2006-09-28 2:29 ` Bruno Lustosa
2 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. @ 2006-09-28 0:50 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Wednesday 27 September 2006 17:59, Joe Menola <menola@sbcglobal.net>
wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Should we NEVER do an ``emerge -u
world''?':
> On Wednesday 27 September 2006 5:10 pm, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > That's not the same as -5ing everything, which is what I was referring
> > to and the easy way to toast /etc/fstab.
>
> Can you give an example of *any* situation that would make updating
> fstab sensible?
No, which is why shipping /etc/fstab as part of baselayout should go away.
Surely there's a solution that provides examples for new user/installs,
but doesn't bug me to update a file that upstream cannot possibly know
good contents for.
> Important etc files should be placed in .example form and the user
> warned that editting is required.
Yeah, but imagine if every configuration file has a .example? I don't want
a bunch of unused files cluttering my filesystem. (I guess I could
INSTALL_MASK them if there was a naming policy.)
> Etc-update has always been the thorn in Gentoo.
Which is why I use dispatch-conf. ;)
--
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Should we NEVER do an ``emerge -u world''?
2006-09-27 22:59 ` Joe Menola
2006-09-28 0:26 ` Neil Bothwick
2006-09-28 0:50 ` Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
@ 2006-09-28 2:29 ` Bruno Lustosa
2 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Bruno Lustosa @ 2006-09-28 2:29 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 9/27/06, Joe Menola <menola@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Can you give an example of *any* situation that would make updating fstab
> sensible?
Maybe...
This line, for example, is used by glibc 2.2 and above:
none /dev/shm tmpfs defaults
0 0
Suppose the next glibc doesn't use it anymore, or there's a new
filesystem type that would go in its place instead?
When doing config upgrades, I always skim through the list to check
for important files that I know I modified, and then deal with them
appropriately. The rest (which is normally the majority), I just do a
-5.
--
Bruno Lustosa <bruno@lustosa.net>
http://www.lustosa.net/
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Should we NEVER do an ``emerge -u world''?
2006-09-27 22:10 ` Neil Bothwick
2006-09-27 22:59 ` Joe Menola
@ 2006-09-29 5:41 ` Alexander Skwar
2006-09-29 7:51 ` Neil Bothwick
1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Alexander Skwar @ 2006-09-29 5:41 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
· Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>:
> Not in the way that causes the problems, of -5ing everything. When i used
> etc-update, I wuld go through the list, accepting some changes and
> rejecting others, then -5 the remainder, which were often example configs.
That's what I do as well.
> That's not the same as -5ing everything, which is what I was referring to
> and the easy way to toast /etc/fstab.
Ah, okay, then I did not understand you completely right.
Alexander Skwar
--
On a clear disk you can seek forever.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Should we NEVER do an ``emerge -u world''?
2006-09-27 18:04 ` sdoma
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
[not found] ` <20060927211301.48c491a3@hactar.digimed.co.uk>
@ 2006-09-27 20:46 ` Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
3 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. @ 2006-09-27 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Wednesday 27 September 2006 13:04, sdoma <sdoma@karneval.cz> wrote
about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Should we NEVER do an ``emerge -u world''?':
> I've tried to get documentoin for Tcl/tk, put 'doc' into the package.use
> for these files and re-emerged tcl and tk (BTW: no docs for these
> packages came up).
What do you mean came up? The doc USE-flag doesn't add to the output of
the emerge (generally) and certainly isn't going to open some window with
documentation in it! You can use equery to see what files a package
installed but, generally, docs are installed to /usr/share/docs
> emerge told me, that there is a new version of
> portage available and that it is HIGHLY recommended to upgrade portage.
> I did so and 87 packages where upgraded
So, you think "upgrade portage" means to execute "emerge -u world"? That's
wrong, and you would have known that if you'd have read the documentation.
> amongst this glibc to 2.4, what
> hurts me now because I planned to install Oracle, which requires
> glibc2.3.
Well, emerge does provide -p (--pretend) and -a (--ask) options so that you
can see what changes it suggests. Portage also
reads /etc/portage/package.mask to determine your local preferences for
what not to install.
> Seems x86 or ~x86 doesn't make much a difference. I reinstalled the
> system not so long ago with x86 fo this reason.
That true, with the new gcc being stable, the new glibc has become stable.
~x86 got this upgrade before x86, but even x86 gets upgrades from time to
time.
> I remember the same problems a couple of times in the past. /etc/fstab
> was "upgraded" to the initial one (the one with /dev/BOOT and dev/ROOT
> inside resulting in a not booting system),
By, default that file in is a CONFIG_PROTECT-ed directory, which means
portage will not overwrite it.
You have either (a) CONFIG_PROTECT_MASK-ed that directory (a horrible idea)
or (b) explicitly *told* etc-update, dispatch-conf, or some other
configuration file management tool to replace your old version; that tool
just did what you told it to.
> networking stopped working
> letting me on my own, stopping hotplug (and historical
> coldplug-nonsense) functionality, udev.rules where replaced by some
> initial one for a syntax change in udev
All of these sound like you made some mistake when managing your
configuration files. Perhaps by using the -5 option in etc-update, an
almost universally bad idea. It is available because it might be useful
to people who read the documentation.
> Just a minor thing, before I realized the USB problem, I was working on
> 'localhost:unknown-domain' after the "upgrade".
Again, sounds like a run with etc-update, although it might be related to
some of the changes in how your hostname and domainname are set.
> I'm really sick of solving the same problems again and again. Seems
> Gentoo is a system for students not needing their comps to be working.
Odd. I've been running testing (~ARCH) Gentoo since the 2004.3 release,
and I don't get that impression. There are some things that need to be
fixed. The way package configuration is done is not one of them.
> For me it looks at this point like: "Every other distribution is a
> better choice for somebody who needs his machine for work". I don't like
> to say that, but this is my expirience. :(
I'm sorry your Gentoo doesn't work the way you expect right now. If you'd
like, I can help your fix your issues, although it may take some time, and
it will definitely both effort and care on your part. Hopefully, we'll
also learn how to prevent those issues from reoccurring.
We might even find things Gentoo can do better, but be prepared to defend
any proposed changes and also realize that all the developers are
volunteers so no one can force them to implement any change.
> PS: X-cuse me top-posting. This is a really exportant issue, and I'm
> disturbing it. ;-(
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but when using your mailer
(Evolution, I think) there's no excuse for top-posting.
> PS 2: Co work with LFS! They have the same target (get people to know
> the functionality of Linux).
That's not Gentoo's goal. Gentoo's goal (if there is a single goal) is to
be a tool instead of a mindset. Do do what you want and get out of the
way.
> I'll install some working distro which is
> conform with other POSIX compliant systems
Like Gentoo?
--
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh
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