[gentoo-user] [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[gentoo-user] [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Ow Mun Heng]

Hi Guys,

I know this is VERY OT. I have a Gentoo Server running at Home 24/7 and
there's a possiblity that it's really eating up my energy bill.

I've seen the Kill-A-Watt
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/7657/ but it's a 120V US
Version.

I'm looking for a 240V Version. Would anyone here know where to get one?

The Server is an old DELL PowerEdge 4300 w/ 2x350Mhz Procs and 1GB Mem


-- 
Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng@wdc.com>

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Re: [gentoo-user] [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Jarry]

Ow Mun Heng wrote:

> I'm looking for a 240V Version. Would anyone here know where to get one?

I'm using this one (all in one line without spaces):

http://www1.uk.conrad.com/scripts/wgate/zcop_uk/?~template=pcat_product_details_document&object_guid=0A2FC03E2FBEFDFFE10000000A01022B&master_guid=&master_typ=&no_brotkrumennavi=&p_load_area=1114014&p_artikelbilder_mode=Ein&p_sortopt=object_description&page=1&p_catalog_max_results=10&cachedetail=

If the link does not work, go to conrad.com and search
for "energy monitor".

Jarry

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Re: [gentoo-user] [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Ow Mun Heng]

On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 19:41 +0200, Jarry wrote:
> Ow Mun Heng wrote:
> 
> > I'm looking for a 240V Version. Would anyone here know where to get one?
> 
> I'm using this one (all in one line without spaces):
> 
> http://www1.uk.conrad.com/scripts/wgate/zcop_uk/?~template=pcat_product_details_document&object_guid=0A2FC03E2FBEFDFFE10000000A01022B&master_guid=&master_typ=&no_brotkrumennavi=&p_load_area=1114014&p_artikelbilder_mode=Ein&p_sortopt=object_description&page=1&p_catalog_max_results=10&cachedetail=

Doesn't work :-(

> If the link does not work, go to conrad.com and search
> for "energy monitor".

Many thanks for the link.
You're referring to the Energy Check 3000 or the Energy Monitor 3000?
(What's the difference? I'm printing the manual to do a comparison
study)

The Check is 19.95 EUR wherelse the monitor is 30.99 EUR (and 39.99 EUR
when I go to the  international page, for some reason)

Which one do you have and it works well I suppose.

Thanks again.
(I've scoured the Net for a few days looking for this one with a
combination of Kill-a-watt + europe and Kill-a-watt + 240V and a variety
of others w/o luck)

-- 
Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng@wdc.com>

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[gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[James]

Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng <at> wdc.com> writes:



> I know this is VERY OT. I have a Gentoo Server running at Home 
24/7 and
> there's a possiblity that it's really eating up my energy bill.

> I've seen the Kill-A-Watt
> http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/7657/ but it's a 120V US
> Version.

> I'm looking for a 240V Version. Would anyone here know where to 
get one?

> The Server is an old DELL PowerEdge 4300 w/ 2x350Mhz Procs and 
1GB Mem


240 VAC in the US is (2) 120 VAC hots on separate wires with a 
ground and neutral, if wired to code. If not, or the wiring is 
very old, the neutral  and ground might be tied together.

If you have an electrician, or are reasonably knowledgable with 
electricity, then you can split off one of the "hot legs" run 
it thru your 120VAC  power meter an see how much juice (energy) 
you are using. Most 240V power supplies run balanced 
(appproximately the same amount of electricity in each "hot leg".
If you are curious, rewire your temporary system so that you can 
move the  power meter to the other leg and see what the comsumption 
is. Each of the two hot-legs should be equal and 1/2 the power 
consumption.


Another, better solution is to purchase a clamp/amp meter so you 
can merely put it around the power cord and make all sorts of power
measurements. Very handy tool. If you do not have the money for 
one, then go to home depot and purchase one on a credit card, use 
it to test and return it in a few days.

The simplist solution is NOBODY puts a 240 VAC power supply 
into a computer unless it's going to draw some serious current 
(amps) thus by the nature of it being 240 VAC, you already know 
it is a power hog.

Some power supplies are 120V/240V selecatable, but switching 
from 240V to 120V may result in more energy consumption....
If it was designed to host a bunch of hard drives and you are 
only using a few, you may be able to change the power supply 
to drop the energy consumption.

However with the low cost of the AMD turion series of processors, 
you may be better off just purchasing a new low power 
(less than 25 watts) mobo which will pay for its self in 
energy savings in a year or so. Big power supplies also throw off 
lots of heat, so if you live somewhere hot, it's a double wammie.....

hth,

James




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Re: [gentoo-user] [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Jarry]

Ow Mun Heng wrote:

> You're referring to the Energy Check 3000 or the Energy Monitor 3000?

I'm using Energy monitor 3000...

> (What's the difference? I'm printing the manual to do a comparison
> study)

I don't know, there was only EnergyMonitor3000 on stock, when
I went shopping so I bought it. But it has larger display! :-)
I'm very satisfied with it. I was really surprised,
how much juice are some of my devices eating...

Jarry

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Ow Mun Heng]

On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 18:27 +0000, James wrote:
> Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng <at> wdc.com> writes:
> 
> 
> 
> > I know this is VERY OT. I have a Gentoo Server running at Home 
> 24/7 and
> > there's a possiblity that it's really eating up my energy bill.
> 
> > I've seen the Kill-A-Watt
> > http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/7657/ but it's a 120V US
> > Version.
> 
> > I'm looking for a 240V Version. Would anyone here know where to 
> get one?
> 
> > The Server is an old DELL PowerEdge 4300 w/ 2x350Mhz Procs and 
> 1GB Mem
> 

> If you have an electrician, or are reasonably knowledgable with 
> electricity, then you can split off one of the "hot legs" run 
> it thru your 120VAC  power meter an see how much juice (energy) 
> you are using. 

I'm not going that path. Thanks anyway for the Howto.
> 
> Another, better solution is to purchase a clamp/amp meter so you 
> can merely put it around the power cord and make all sorts of power

The item I want to test is back home. I'm in the US for a few months
only, so a 240V one is needed.

> The simplist solution is NOBODY puts a 240 VAC power supply 
> into a computer unless it's going to draw some serious current 

Unfortunately, I'm not a US resident and I live in a Country where the
power comes in at 240V.

> energy savings in a year or so. Big power supplies also throw off 
> lots of heat, so if you live somewhere hot, it's a double wammie.....

Yeah.. Asian Country. HOT throughout the year.

-- 
Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng@wdc.com>

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Re: [gentoo-user] [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Ow Mun Heng]

On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 20:40 +0200, Jarry wrote:
> Ow Mun Heng wrote:
> 
> > You're referring to the Energy Check 3000 or the Energy Monitor 3000?
> 
> I'm using Energy monitor 3000...

Thanks.
> 
> > (What's the difference? I'm printing the manual to do a comparison
> > study)
> 
> I'm very satisfied with it. I was really surprised,
> how much juice are some of my devices eating...

That's what I'm trying to figure out as well. My Energy bill is
skyrocketing even w/o AC turned on, lights off, standby applicanes off
etc. 

Seems like there doesn't seem to be a difference between the Check and
the monitor.
-- 
Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng@wdc.com>

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Daniel da Veiga]

On 8/3/06, Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng@wdc.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 18:27 +0000, James wrote:
> > Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng <at> wdc.com> writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > > I know this is VERY OT. I have a Gentoo Server running at Home
> > 24/7 and
> > > there's a possiblity that it's really eating up my energy bill.
> >
> > > I've seen the Kill-A-Watt
> > > http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/7657/ but it's a 120V US
> > > Version.
> >
> > > I'm looking for a 240V Version. Would anyone here know where to
> > get one?
> >
> > > The Server is an old DELL PowerEdge 4300 w/ 2x350Mhz Procs and
> > 1GB Mem
> >
>
> > If you have an electrician, or are reasonably knowledgable with
> > electricity, then you can split off one of the "hot legs" run
> > it thru your 120VAC  power meter an see how much juice (energy)
> > you are using.
>
> I'm not going that path. Thanks anyway for the Howto.
> >
> > Another, better solution is to purchase a clamp/amp meter so you
> > can merely put it around the power cord and make all sorts of power
>
> The item I want to test is back home. I'm in the US for a few months
> only, so a 240V one is needed.
>
> > The simplist solution is NOBODY puts a 240 VAC power supply
> > into a computer unless it's going to draw some serious current
>
> Unfortunately, I'm not a US resident and I live in a Country where the
> power comes in at 240V.
>
> > energy savings in a year or so. Big power supplies also throw off
> > lots of heat, so if you live somewhere hot, it's a double wammie.....
>
> Yeah.. Asian Country. HOT throughout the year.
>

I live in a cowntry where energy comes at 240V (Brazil), but all
computers, printers and most eletronic devices are wired to a voltage
stabilizer that reduces the risk of damage by lightning and other
voltage peaks. This stabilizers also transform 240 to 120V AC, so, our
energy is 240V but almost ALL devices run switched to 120V.

So, my advice is: get a stabilizer.

-- 
Daniel da Veiga
Computer Operator - RS - Brazil
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCM/IT/P/O d-? s:- a? C++$ UBLA++ P+ L++ E--- W+++$ N o+ K- w O M- V-
PS PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+++ R+* tv b+ DI+++ D+ G+ e h+ r+ y++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Ow Mun Heng]

On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 16:04 -0300, Daniel da Veiga wrote:
> On 8/3/06, Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng@wdc.com> wrote:
> >
> > Unfortunately, I'm not a US resident and I live in a Country where the
> > power comes in at 240V.
> >
> >
> 
> I live in a cowntry where energy comes at 240V (Brazil), but all
> computers, printers and most eletronic devices are wired to a voltage
> stabilizer that reduces the risk of damage by lightning and other
> voltage peaks. This stabilizers also transform 240 to 120V AC, so, our
> energy is 240V but almost ALL devices run switched to 120V.


I'm sorry but what's the difference between running it at 120V or 240V?
(besides the stabilizer)
BTW, my PC equipment is running off an APS UPS that does power surges
and I presume stabilizer as well.

-- 
Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng@wdc.com>

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Re: [gentoo-user] [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 10:25:41 -0700, Ow Mun Heng wrote:

> I've seen the Kill-A-Watt
> http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/7657/ but it's a 120V US
> Version.
> 
> I'm looking for a 240V Version. Would anyone here know where to get one?

I have a Brennenstuhl PM230, which seems to do the same sort of thing on
240V. I think I got it from Maplins - a UK electronic component/gadget
retailer - http://www.maplin.co.uk. They don't appear to have in on their
site now, but here's something similar

http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?TabID=1&criteria=power%20meter&ModuleNo=38343&doy=3m8

In fact, it looks almost identical to the Kill-A-Watt.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If a program is useless, it must be documented.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Dale]

Mike Williams wrote:
> On Thursday 03 August 2006 19:27, James wrote:
>   
>> The simplist solution is NOBODY puts a 240 VAC power supply
>> into a computer unless it's going to draw some serious current
>> (amps) thus by the nature of it being 240 VAC, you already know
>> it is a power hog.
>>     
>
> Now, I'm not electrical engineer, but I know my way around a fuse board and 
> electricity having fitted out both our new offices for power, network, and 
> some walls.
>
> In the UK, and most (if not all) of Europe, Africa, and Asia too, run on about 
> 240 volts, 230 +-10% I think now.
> Pretty much the whole world, except the Americas.
>
>   

Well, the USA has the same coming in too.  We have 220v to 240v coming
in but that is split into different legs for the 110v to 120v stuff. 

If you are using transformers to reduce it from 220v to 110v, that will
waste some energy right there.  Transformers are not real efficient.  If
you touch it and it is warm, that is what you are wasting.  That will
also make whatever you are cooling with work harder too.

Dale

:-)  :-)
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Richard Fish]

On 8/3/06, Dale <teendale@vista-express.com> wrote:
> Well, the USA has the same coming in too.  We have 220v to 240v coming
> in but that is split into different legs for the 110v to 120v stuff.

No, we don't.  We have ~120V between a 'hot' wire and neutral, and
240V appliances work by using the two hot wires that are 180 degrees
out of phase with each other.

Other countries actually have 240V between the hot and neutral wires,
regardless of how many hot wires actually come in.

-Richard
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Dale]

Richard Fish wrote:
> On 8/3/06, Dale <teendale@vista-express.com> wrote:
>> Well, the USA has the same coming in too.  We have 220v to 240v coming
>> in but that is split into different legs for the 110v to 120v stuff.
>
> No, we don't.  We have ~120V between a 'hot' wire and neutral, and
> 240V appliances work by using the two hot wires that are 180 degrees
> out of phase with each other.
>
> Other countries actually have 240V between the hot and neutral wires,
> regardless of how many hot wires actually come in.
>
> -Richard

But I can plug their 220v stuff in here too.  I have seen the plugs
here, Lowes I think.  They are funny looking though. 

That said, having it 220 or 240v is more efficient.  That is why they
distribute power at higher voltages, sometimes as high as 500Kv.

Dale
:-)  :-)
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Ow Mun Heng]

On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 20:10 -0500, Dale wrote:
> Richard Fish wrote:
> > On 8/3/06, Dale <teendale@vista-express.com> wrote:
> >> Well, the USA has the same coming in too.  We have 220v to 240v coming
> >> in but that is split into different legs for the 110v to 120v stuff.
> >
> > No, we don't.  We have ~120V between a 'hot' wire and neutral, and
> > 240V appliances work by using the two hot wires that are 180 degrees
> > out of phase with each other.
> >
> > Other countries actually have 240V between the hot and neutral wires,
> > regardless of how many hot wires actually come in.

> But I can plug their 220v stuff in here too.  I have seen the plugs
> here, Lowes I think.  They are funny looking though. 

That's mainly because thoe 'stuffs' has built in inverters/step up/down
etc.

> 
> That said, having it 220 or 240v is more efficient.  That is why they
> distribute power at higher voltages, sometimes as high as 500Kv.

That is actually just so that it won't lose as much when it gets to it's
destination. That's "distribution" voltage to the substations which then
downsteps it to then be distributed to households etc.
-- 
Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng@wdc.com>

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Iain Buchanan]

On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 11:45 -0700, Ow Mun Heng wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 18:27 +0000, James wrote:
> > Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng <at> wdc.com> writes:

> > Another, better solution is to purchase a clamp/amp meter so you 
> > can merely put it around the power cord and make all sorts of power
> 
> The item I want to test is back home. I'm in the US for a few months
> only, so a 240V one is needed.

so what's wrong with the clamp? They're great devices - you can often
buy a multimeter (every geek should have one :) with a current clamp (or
transducer) thrown in.  That way you have no wiring, no inline plugs,
and you won't even have to turn the PC off to install it!

Here's one that is just a current clamp [fluke.com.au]:
http://www.fluke.com.au/auen/products/Fluke+320.htm?catalog_name=FlukeAustralia
but you can buy a normal multimeter with the option too...

This way, it shouldn't matter what the Voltage is (240V, 120V,
3.141592653589793V) you just adjust the switch on the meter.

Some of the more expensive products have waveform capture and
datalogging features too.

HTH,
-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

This is a test of the emergency broadcast system.  Had there been an
actual emergency, then you would no longer be here.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Ow Mun Heng]

On Fri, 2006-08-04 at 13:20 +0930, Iain Buchanan wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 11:45 -0700, Ow Mun Heng wrote:
> > On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 18:27 +0000, James wrote:
> > > Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng <at> wdc.com> writes:
> 
> > > Another, better solution is to purchase a clamp/amp meter so you 
> > > can merely put it around the power cord and make all sorts of power
> > 
> > The item I want to test is back home. I'm in the US for a few months
> > only, so a 240V one is needed.
> 
> so what's wrong with the clamp? 

Nothing. I just didn't know about them.

> They're great devices - you can often
> buy a multimeter (every geek should have one :) with a current clamp (or
> transducer) thrown in.  That way you have no wiring, no inline plugs,
> and you won't even have to turn the PC off to install it!

Dang. I have to kick myself for calling myself a Geek.

> Here's one that is just a current clamp [fluke.com.au]:
> http://www.fluke.com.au/auen/products/Fluke+320.htm?catalog_name=FlukeAustralia
> but you can buy a normal multimeter with the option too...

Hmm.. How does it work? Perhaps a google search or go through
howstuffswork.com would help.

> This way, it shouldn't matter what the Voltage is (240V, 120V,
> 3.141592653589793V) you just adjust the switch on the meter.
Cool. Wonder how much it is. Fluke stuffs aren't exactly cheap

Thanks for the heads up/
-- 
Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng@wdc.com>

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Iain Buchanan]

On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 20:58 -0700, Ow Mun Heng wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-08-04 at 13:20 +0930, Iain Buchanan wrote:

> > They're great devices - you can often
> > buy a multimeter (every geek should have one :) with a current clamp (or
> > transducer) thrown in.  That way you have no wiring, no inline plugs,
> > and you won't even have to turn the PC off to install it!
> 
> Dang. I have to kick myself for calling myself a Geek.

yeah, I have sore shins too...

> > Here's one that is just a current clamp [fluke.com.au]:
> > http://www.fluke.com.au/auen/products/Fluke+320.htm?catalog_name=FlukeAustralia
> > but you can buy a normal multimeter with the option too...
> 
> Hmm.. How does it work? Perhaps a google search or go through
> howstuffswork.com would help.

how does it work or how do you use it?  You use it by clipping the
"claws" around one wire that you're interested in...

um, I just came across a problem - it won't work with an AC power cord,
because you have active and neutral both going through the clamp in
opposite directions, hence they'll cancel each other out.  You need only
the active going through the clamp...  oh well, it was a nice idea.

But "how it works" (with AC) is something like this:  AC produces a
field around the wire as it "flows".  This field in turn will induce a
current in a wire placed close to it.  Loop a wire (transducer) around
another wire (AC current flow), and you can inference the change in
current in the original wire by measuring the current flow in the loop.

It doesn't work with DC, as DC doesn't create a field (at least, not
when it's steady.  When switching on and off a DC device, you'll still
get a change in current)

IANAE(lectrician), so this might be complete bunkum, but that's how I
remember it anyway.

HTH,
-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

Truth is free, but information costs.

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[gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Remy Blank]

Iain Buchanan wrote:
> um, I just came across a problem - it won't work with an AC power cord,
> because you have active and neutral both going through the clamp in
> opposite directions, hence they'll cancel each other out.  You need only
> the active going through the clamp...

Or only the neutral. It doesn't matter, actually.

> But "how it works" (with AC) is something like this:  AC produces a
> field around the wire as it "flows".  This field in turn will induce a
> current in a wire placed close to it.  Loop a wire (transducer) around
> another wire (AC current flow), and you can inference the change in
> current in the original wire by measuring the current flow in the loop.
> 
> It doesn't work with DC, as DC doesn't create a field (at least, not
> when it's steady.  When switching on and off a DC device, you'll still
> get a change in current)
> 
> IANAE(lectrician), so this might be complete bunkum, but that's how I
> remember it anyway.

You almost got it. Actually, it's not necessary that the current be AC:
even a DC current produces a magnetic field around the conductor (albeit
a DC field). The clamp is a ferromagnetic ring that "concentrates" the
magnetic field, and it is interrupted at one location by a hall-effect
sensor that measures the magnetic field. The current can be calculated
from the magnetic field intensity and the diameter of the clamp ring.

-- Remy


Remove underscore and suffix in reply address for a timely response.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Ted Ozolins]

Remy Blank wrote:

>Iain Buchanan wrote:
>  
>
>>um, I just came across a problem - it won't work with an AC power cord,
>>because you have active and neutral both going through the clamp in
>>opposite directions, hence they'll cancel each other out.  You need only
>>the active going through the clamp...
>>    
>>
>
>Or only the neutral. It doesn't matter, actually.
>
>  
>
>>But "how it works" (with AC) is something like this:  AC produces a
>>field around the wire as it "flows".  This field in turn will induce a
>>current in a wire placed close to it.  Loop a wire (transducer) around
>>another wire (AC current flow), and you can inference the change in
>>current in the original wire by measuring the current flow in the loop.
>>
>>It doesn't work with DC, as DC doesn't create a field (at least, not
>>when it's steady.  When switching on and off a DC device, you'll still
>>get a change in current)
>>
>>IANAE(lectrician), so this might be complete bunkum, but that's how I
>>remember it anyway.
>>    
>>
>
>You almost got it. Actually, it's not necessary that the current be AC:
>even a DC current produces a magnetic field around the conductor (albeit
>a DC field). The clamp is a ferromagnetic ring that "concentrates" the
>magnetic field, and it is interrupted at one location by a hall-effect
>sensor that measures the magnetic field. The current can be calculated
>from the magnetic field intensity and the diameter of the clamp ring.
>
>-- Remy
>
>
>Remove underscore and suffix in reply address for a timely response.
>
>  
>
Well you almost got it right.  The clamp is just a basic transformer
being the secondary winding. Since AC current flow changes both in
amplitude and direction, induces a current flow in the secondary
winding, "the clamp". The current is then rectified and the measurement
then is displayed on a meter.  I've used high voltage transformers from
old monitors to monitor and trigger alarms signaling excessive current
change. Basically just a home made clamp.

Cheers.

-- 
Ted Ozolins(VE7TVO)
Westbank, B. C

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[gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Remy Blank]

Ted Ozolins wrote:
> Well you almost got it right.  The clamp is just a basic transformer
> being the secondary winding. Since AC current flow changes both in
> amplitude and direction, induces a current flow in the secondary
> winding, "the clamp". The current is then rectified and the measurement
> then is displayed on a meter.  I've used high voltage transformers from
> old monitors to monitor and trigger alarms signaling excessive current
> change. Basically just a home made clamp.

This is getting really OT, but as far as I remember my electricity
lectures, what you describe is a current transformer. For it to work
somewhat reliably, you have to wind the wire to be measured around a
ferrite core, which already has a secondary winding where the current is
measured. And yes, it only works for AC currents.

The clamps we use (which are admittedly in the higher price range)
measure the magnetic field directly using Hall-effect sensors, and also
work for DC currents. The nice thing with this measurement principle is
that it is independent of the placement of the clamp relative to the
wire. It just has to go through the clamp.

I couldn't find a nice explanation of the measurement principle, but
here's at least something:

  http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/Download/Asset/1989065_A_w.pdf

-- Remy


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Hamish Marson]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dale wrote:
> Mike Williams wrote:
>> On Thursday 03 August 2006 19:27, James wrote:
>>
>>> The simplist solution is NOBODY puts a 240 VAC power supply
>>> into a computer unless it's going to draw some serious current
>>> (amps) thus by the nature of it being 240 VAC, you already know
>>>  it is a power hog.
>>>
>> Now, I'm not electrical engineer, but I know my way around a fuse
>> board and electricity having fitted out both our new offices for
>> power, network, and some walls.
>>
>> In the UK, and most (if not all) of Europe, Africa, and Asia too,
>> run on about 240 volts, 230 +-10% I think now. Pretty much the
>> whole world, except the Americas.
>>
>>
>
> Well, the USA has the same coming in too.  We have 220v to 240v
> coming in but that is split into different legs for the 110v to
> 120v stuff.
>

Unless those two legs are in phase, you're still only getting
110V-120V AC. IIRC (And it's from 20 years ago I'm working here) it's
not, it's just two legs of the 3 phase generated power. Which means
they're 120 deg out of phase, and so you still only get 110-120V. In
order to get 220-240V, you'd need 3 phase power.

I suspect you get two 110V lines because of current limitations. Not
to provide you with 220V which you'r enot going to get from just
adding two out of phase lines. (Unless of course the US has wired up
two in-phase separate 110V lines. In which case you can get 220V outof
it, but I seem to remember a lecture in Eng Sci saying it was common
to take 2 of 3 phases to a house in the US & alternate which 2 between
successive houses.

> If you are using transformers to reduce it from 220v to 110v, that
> will waste some energy right there.  Transformers are not real
> efficient.  If you touch it and it is warm, that is what you are
> wasting.  That will also make whatever you are cooling with work
> harder too.
>

Plus you need twice the current at 110V vs 220V. (Volts are big 'V'
BTW! Named after Voltaire). This means higher line losses as loss is
proportional to current. Higher line losses mean that cable length
becomes more of a problem. (A 10V drop in 240V is less than 5%. 10V
drop in 120V is almost 10%. Much more significant).

All-in-all I prefer 240V single phase.

H
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Herman Grootaers]

On Friday 11 August 2006 11:22, Hamish Marson wrote:
> Dale wrote:
> > Mike Williams wrote:
> >> On Thursday 03 August 2006 19:27, James wrote:
> >>> The simplist solution is NOBODY puts a 240 VAC power supply
> >>> into a computer unless it's going to draw some serious current
> >>> (amps) thus by the nature of it being 240 VAC, you already know
> >>>  it is a power hog.
> >>
> >> Now, I'm not electrical engineer, but I know my way around a fuse
> >> board and electricity having fitted out both our new offices for
> >> power, network, and some walls.
> >>
> >> In the UK, and most (if not all) of Europe, Africa, and Asia too,
> >> run on about 240 volts, 230 +-10% I think now. Pretty much the
> >> whole world, except the Americas.
> >
> > Well, the USA has the same coming in too.  We have 220v to 240v
> > coming in but that is split into different legs for the 110v to
> > 120v stuff.
>
> Unless those two legs are in phase, you're still only getting
> 110V-120V AC. IIRC (And it's from 20 years ago I'm working here) it's
> not, it's just two legs of the 3 phase generated power. Which means
> they're 120 deg out of phase, and so you still only get 110-120V. In
> order to get 220-240V, you'd need 3 phase power.

Safer to use a transformer 110V-220V which will lessen the danger of 
playing with two or three live wires, a misconnection can cause an 
outage with all sorts of problems generated, died disks and other 
apparatus.

> I suspect you get two 110V lines because of current limitations. Not
> to provide you with 220V which you'r enot going to get from just
> adding two out of phase lines. (Unless of course the US has wired up
> two in-phase separate 110V lines. In which case you can get 220V
> outof it, but I seem to remember a lecture in Eng Sci saying it was
> common to take 2 of 3 phases to a house in the US & alternate which 2
> between successive houses.
>
> > If you are using transformers to reduce it from 220v to 110v, that
> > will waste some energy right there.  Transformers are not real
> > efficient.  If you touch it and it is warm, that is what you are
> > wasting.  That will also make whatever you are cooling with work
> > harder too.
>
> Plus you need twice the current at 110V vs 220V. (Volts are big 'V'
> BTW! Named after Voltaire). 

Sorry, the french writer Voltaire was not dabbling in science. It was 
Alessandro Guiseppe Antonio Volta who detected the reaction of 
different metals on the muscles of a hindlegs of a frog and build the 
first electric battery from that detection.

> This means higher line losses as loss is proportional to current.
> Higher line losses mean that cable length becomes more of a problem.
> (A 10V drop in 240V is less than 5%. 10V drop in 120V is almost 10%.
> Much more significant).   
>
> All-in-all I prefer 240V single phase.
>

So do I, although in itself that voltage is deadly
-- 
Herman Grootaers
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Dale]

Hamish Marson wrote:
> Dale wrote:
> >> Mike Williams wrote:
> >>> On Thursday 03 August 2006 19:27, James wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The simplist solution is NOBODY puts a 240 VAC power supply
> >>>> into a computer unless it's going to draw some serious current
> >>>> (amps) thus by the nature of it being 240 VAC, you already know
> >>>>  it is a power hog.
> >>>>
> >>> Now, I'm not electrical engineer, but I know my way around a fuse
> >>> board and electricity having fitted out both our new offices for
> >>> power, network, and some walls.
> >>>
> >>> In the UK, and most (if not all) of Europe, Africa, and Asia too,
> >>> run on about 240 volts, 230 +-10% I think now. Pretty much the
> >>> whole world, except the Americas.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Well, the USA has the same coming in too.  We have 220v to 240v
> >> coming in but that is split into different legs for the 110v to
> >> 120v stuff.
> >>
>
> Unless those two legs are in phase, you're still only getting
> 110V-120V AC. IIRC (And it's from 20 years ago I'm working here) it's
> not, it's just two legs of the 3 phase generated power. Which means
> they're 120 deg out of phase, and so you still only get 110-120V. In
> order to get 220-240V, you'd need 3 phase power.
>
> I suspect you get two 110V lines because of current limitations. Not
> to provide you with 220V which you'r enot going to get from just
> adding two out of phase lines. (Unless of course the US has wired up
> two in-phase separate 110V lines. In which case you can get 220V outof
> it, but I seem to remember a lecture in Eng Sci saying it was common
> to take 2 of 3 phases to a house in the US & alternate which 2 between
> successive houses.

The two lines are out of phase.  Here, big things like air conditioners,
stoves, dryers and central heat run off the 220 or 240v wires.  Small
things like lights, hair dryers, fans and even small window air
conditioners run off the 110 or 120v lines.  In most places here, 3
phase is not available unless you are in a area that has large factories
or are in a city.  Here the black and white wires are 120v, the red and
black wires are 220 or 240v.  Also note, you can tell the power company
which one you want when you get them to put up your pole.  We had 220v
for years.  When the transformer went out I asked for 240V.  With a
light load we actually get about 248v or so.  When something like the
A/C turns on it will drop to about 240v or so.  It stays pretty stable
after that though.  Keep in mind that light bulbs blow faster at the
higher voltage.  At the same time A/C compressors run a lot more efficient.
>
> >> If you are using transformers to reduce it from 220v to 110v, that
> >> will waste some energy right there.  Transformers are not real
> >> efficient.  If you touch it and it is warm, that is what you are
> >> wasting.  That will also make whatever you are cooling with work
> >> harder too.
> >>
>
> Plus you need twice the current at 110V vs 220V. (Volts are big 'V'
> BTW! Named after Voltaire). This means higher line losses as loss is
> proportional to current. Higher line losses mean that cable length
> becomes more of a problem. (A 10V drop in 240V is less than 5%. 10V
> drop in 120V is almost 10%. Much more significant).
>
> All-in-all I prefer 240V single phase.
>
> H

As far as being efficient with power usage, me two.  I have a friend
that uses some heavy equipment and some of them are 480v.  They put out
a lot more horsepower but they run very cool because the current draw is
so small. 

We here would likely be better off if we did use 220v like other
countries but it would take us years to convert things over. 

Dale
:-) 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Nagatoro]

Herman Grootaers wrote:
> On Friday 11 August 2006 11:22, Hamish Marson wrote:
>> All-in-all I prefer 240V single phase.
> 
> So do I, although in itself that voltage is deadly

When combined with a high enough current...

-- 
Naga
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Alan Mckinnon]

On Fri, 2006-08-11 at 12:24 +0200, Nagatoro wrote:
> Herman Grootaers wrote:
> > On Friday 11 August 2006 11:22, Hamish Marson wrote:
> >> All-in-all I prefer 240V single phase.
> > 
> > So do I, although in itself that voltage is deadly
> 
> When combined with a high enough current...

The current drawn through a conductor (in this case a live body) is
determined by the voltage, and the resistance of the body itself. Basic,
elementary Ohms law. A live body will draw something in the order of 100
mA from 240V ac (assuming the power source can deliver that current, we
can assume it will as this is mains after all).

The point is that even if the power station can generate 14 brazillion
quadrillion amps and the wires to your house can carry it without
melting, you will still only have 100mA going through your body if you
happen to get shocked.

The power source delivers the volts and th4e sink doesn't get to change
that. The sink draws the current and the source doesn't get to change
that.

alan


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Naga]

On Friday 11 August 2006 13:26, Alan Mckinnon wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-08-11 at 12:24 +0200, Nagatoro wrote:
> > Herman Grootaers wrote:
> > > On Friday 11 August 2006 11:22, Hamish Marson wrote:
> > >> All-in-all I prefer 240V single phase.
> > >
> > > So do I, although in itself that voltage is deadly
> >
> > When combined with a high enough current...
>
> The current drawn through a conductor (in this case a live body) is
> determined by the voltage, and the resistance of the body itself.

And in this case the surface that the body is in contact with.

I other words don't stand in water when you get the shock (but rubber shoes 
should work) :)

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Alan Mckinnon]

On Fri, 2006-08-11 at 13:44 +0200, Naga wrote:
> On Friday 11 August 2006 13:26, Alan Mckinnon wrote:

> > The current drawn through a conductor (in this case a live body) is
> > determined by the voltage, and the resistance of the body itself.
> 
> And in this case the surface that the body is in contact with.
> 
> I other words don't stand in water when you get the shock (but rubber shoes 
> should work) :)

On a side note, when I was still fixing things for a living I used to
demonstrate to new trainees how current flow actually worked by
deliberately touching the mains live on a running tv set in complete
safety. Very very very few of them figured it out :-) The secret:

- use one finger of one hand
- wooden workbench
- shoes

alan


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Richard Fish]

On 8/11/06, Dale <teendale@vista-express.com> wrote:
> We here would likely be better off if we did use 220v like other
> countries but it would take us years to convert things over.

Yep, and we would have to start by converting to plugs that didn't
encourage us to electrocute ourselves every time we plug in our
laptops!

-Richard
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[Ow Mun Heng]

On Fri, 2006-08-11 at 15:07 -0700, Richard Fish wrote:
> On 8/11/06, Dale <teendale@vista-express.com> wrote:
> > We here would likely be better off if we did use 220v like other
> > countries but it would take us years to convert things over.
> 
> Yep, and we would have to start by converting to plugs that didn't
> encourage us to electrocute ourselves every time we plug in our
> laptops!

coming from a country where you have to explicitly switch on the plugs
just so that 
electricity _will_ flow, seeing the US styled plugs really frigthens me.

I wonder how this passed through OHSA inspections.
-- 
Ow Mun Heng <Ow.Mun.Heng@wdc.com>

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Re: [gentoo-user] [Very OT] - Kill-A-Watt (240V Version) to measure my Gentoo Server Power Usage

[TN]

I'm a bit late into this thread, but I built my own from a kit available 
here in Australia.
It's a design from a local magazine called Silicon Chip, and retails 
through a few places, like DSE & Altronics (www.altronics.com.au)
http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/44e509be0969bde4273fc0a87f9c0731/Product/View/K7217

It's an expensive kit though and you need to fo through a calibration 
setup where you put a purely resistive high load on (so that the PF=1.0, 
I used a domestic fanless heater). It's easy enough, but if you're not 
experienced it is a potentially dangerous exercise. You can buy cheaper 
killawatt type of devices, but I don't know how good they are in 
comparison this this unit I built.
Powerfactors must be taken into account and I believe some of the real 
cheap units may not be accurate with inductive/capacitive loads. Switch 
mode power supplies are also notoriously difficult to accurately measure 
- but near enough might be good enough for most people.

There's a cheap unit which I'm going to buy from Jaycar to compare to my 
kit, but this will have Australian pins on it since it's a wallbug one 
like Killawatt. The kit I built was good this way - you just bought a 
short extension lead and cut it in half to use as male & female for your 
country.
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MS6115&CATID=&keywords=power+meter&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=

As a matter of interest, I have a 2.6GHz P4 (not HT) with 3 HDD's in it, 
and the PC alone consumes around 90W while idle, with no HDD access, 2 
of the 3 drives are in standby too.
Compare this 90W to my windows box which is a P4 3.2GHz machine with a 
Radeon 9800 Pro video card - this machine consumes 170-180W idling, and 
almost 300W while playing a game (ie. CPU & GPU loaded).

Also, my TV/DVD player/amplifier/VCR combination consumes 30W when 
everything is 'off', and only 100W when it's all going. So these days I 
turn my whole setup off overnight and most of the day until I actually 
use them in the evenings.....so if my system is off for 10 hours, it 
effectively means that I've saved 300Wh, which can run my system for 3 
hours (more than I actually watch per day!) Sure, it costs cents to run, 
but in a quarterly bill you do actually see the difference, plus every 
kWh creates around 0.6kg of emissions (US average, I don't have figures 
for my own country)







Ow Mun Heng wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> I know this is VERY OT. I have a Gentoo Server running at Home 24/7 and
> there's a possiblity that it's really eating up my energy bill.
>
> I've seen the Kill-A-Watt
> http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/7657/ but it's a 120V US
> Version.
>
> I'm looking for a 240V Version. Would anyone here know where to get one?
>
> The Server is an old DELL PowerEdge 4300 w/ 2x350Mhz Procs and 1GB Mem
>
>
>   

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 

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