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Thu, 08 Dec 2022 15:30:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.8.8.12] ([107.179.20.164]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id fd9-20020a05622a4d0900b003995f6513b9sm15925260qtb.95.2022.12.08.15.30.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 08 Dec 2022 15:30:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] NAS and replacing with larger drives To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org References: <9407e524-2226-6ba9-dd7f-bac635d083e3@gmail.com> From: Dale Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rdalek1967@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBGFSciYBEADcEGMyJBSuavKO/XKUVvgkxck7Nl8Iuu8N2lcnRji/rSKg5c1Acix1ll9i oW8JBCHwvn0+Xy60BvEsqcup3YSHw5STl/bR1ePEehtnYrg8FdjdS91+B805RfnKMm69rFVI wLSBHQrSG1yxHd8CloWoEdhmVtP24buajbh114bgXd9ahtpZrCVMrWdWYUg2mEXguGV5uNAh Rf8SWxDNc79w24JxsV34a8niMUYMjzWr0rafIbzk732X38vGjVMLo/2mMpkbp9mPp++LHoY+ 0Pet8zxxdXPJSCd475kza1AD+hhSyBZXB9yknYWgyY3cZe1rGmooJSi2KX4QxO7npwLThcO1 be6KKRkd35+Fi/a1BzVOHsZMiK/gcwxEFoMd27gir4ehaeHJfFXl+65w4hj0EsOZSxrJrm2C R50g5By2czSKP1bADEygFNpIJj51AR+wM88NImG2RPtlT2maYBzazvF05g65cdHXGp1C7W5P wwwKU2DgABB2t7N7z5A69LnryBRw4zUYDRRYLTYlBlYgg+xILm2c0OrBdxJgLJa7JE50Eo25 d3PFwt9J0gYvqy6sPFLl9So0sDg9zm0hKQtXOP5kgropUFGrNoJI+mjwF4rYLRBVzZwNAvlO OhEvHubBo3mEllv4x+FeptwXZxlk7gUsdqI8AxnFB8K9wi6FVQARAQABtBtEYWxlIDxyZGFs ZWsxOTY3QGdtYWlsLmNvbT6JAk4EEwEIADgCGyMFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AW IQQSG1h01ruv/WNXc3Q3RqOgiQH1GwUCYVJy8gAKCRA3RqOgiQH1G+waEACeTZCt77jnRAmQ AV7otKuZekDWiLi3Eig8tj5ZJiCNSYA/hIxzmexRP0GMqjitcXK1iGwWcvMzzvIq30GAjIfB 4BR38cnXbtBa6fNewiT7QaZe/Hn6yBRldXNQypzbHy+/o27bUEy+oX4rE7etUgEHQAjuw7xz XFWg4tH1/KJvsOVY5upnWc5LdxYhsuQ3dQD4b22GsK0pOBDfb9PiirYM8eGKvrVuq4E/c75z lDDFhINl18lNZ9D0ZFL3IkTjHsAAqFH9uhnnEB8CWdHbBewPEfRaOhBUYWZ3Q8uTkmDgZT8q D9jlvLEdw7Nh2ApdxoepnI/4D+ql2Gr4DtH7SEPydr5gcf1Qr/2bXRb1hAYnIVcbncs/Bm3Z bkRKPVWMfE3Fusa+p5hMzixk0YysMaTHlc7mYRYAEZGnPMXnmcCbetwARU7A0yz1M1kCMOAQ Lsz8KH5kv3cRenMB6SFfjND2JfAK61H5TtnPq3L8noS2ZykRYxq9Nm3X64O1tJojIKBoZFr8 AwYNCvqC6puUyGMuzHPh7jPof8glfrrEKIYUvNPGMDoVX3IGetxh/9l6NcxgFA4JGoR+LS3C zmeNrwlllAe3OEUfKoWVQ+pagpSdM+8hHolaSda4Ys66Z3fCR4ZvcTqfhTAVskpqdXa4isAk 7vTcXu3L499ttywEp7rJTbkCDQRhUnImARAAncUdVhmtRr59zqpTUppKroQYlzR0jv8oa7DG K4gakTAT2N7evnI9wpssmzyVk8VEiLzhnFQ/Ol3FRt6hZCXDJt0clyHOyTfvz/MNFttWuZTc mLpSvmRR6VRjAH+Tz3Eam2xUw3PGuH97BcXQ3NnX3msv1UDxtxxBu6e2YrdeOhrCUSgzokcJ 98ChUNy934cgepPybAI12lSWqVFQ1aG7jExZfiUk+333fPSDbpKoZbTW5YJLXbycmW/C1IWL qYQyNjRWKaGoJtUWFhhmNiOQct7n90aKivNVPavmN+UQ9LlMaINtf9T6XCzLfogCFsulDCDJ 0yNQLDTurHaB4E71xoctgXmLLq9z1RQ0W2XiVAAOZQj6K3+d0AOUjDhCQ2QW8dUSq0ckkZXV DKVJOGS8Nhf2eIWIqRnP3AcUiiaiFGqUaVUmUAZ6h/oJmgghEu/1S+pcuUKU5i69+XCZ3hH2 Jzwzbf7K+FAIkOhCfHncF8i1N1pk00pOVykNnqHTfFo3qFusHt0ZWgXVnnn4pYdXqZNoDhvF BRE5Vm4k/k96Pw8HRx6Os6eFSRrlqGzRgqsu86FekxusXB9UGv4lJhtU/J+8MRWsh22K718s DbQnABicGKFz1qQlWvcf59oTByhLINJCBt1WXl+TzJDXepr3QSkqmK41dO9Hob97C9dMiK8A EQEAAYkCNgQYAQgAIAIbDBYhBBIbWHTWu6/9Y1dzdDdGo6CJAfUbBQJhUnLyAAoJEDdGo6CJ AfUbVHIQAKSWw620vPhR3A/njU2z77F3z/Jk+HTKdE3fIyWSWdkYN7CBFL0NguOMP30WZ+qE sJhZu7T5hf251MwQUUt27xlfnKYOmQs7CqONlXuXlGZI6WufrUjxNcVz+5gJsqvUWuuJWsgg sDmE92IBnfG/f81fPHWQyfr/SF4wYDMyoFp5xCCQpp1zB63iuFvvrhxBkEHzmbRtVDOhl0Xp BVEDR1w3QRACw9QJD/KM05Czv9JNQYlwinWO/OaQ9cMlUpKLgswUPg9IZ5vucxScfuAUA5uC B1jlAQ8ZPlVukBmbEv5RGOv+lpuEbA3YDMVtEeH4YMFbjt/+vH3Cr2vTbp5JlpByLburJEH0 WXZLUawEfUsZvVwpOuJK75vaa2HYXee+Cb3iCIzwfIfctdlqzUcbGRczlRNM59hpvj4z29Gh 3kAxVHItAYq54ikxQ9l4hQ8s9sLYPbX/WtcBxNX8crBSw0FLnmzGleVEtBHyqtt5CLzQNgrj GYWl1vKDUmRPw1CdZ1c+fMN9CY11jOM5B5ZnqZWfDeVYO2iJ5SuvTycChexCb8WYn1bdCBIo bBtga2RBXbVt4Mh9E4owsszefn51MwfjXxB20Fc5k3GU1AVpTCMs3ayYCzo0b2pvEvdjtDcA CYLEFPWgaFX9iQAM/CDfKvTtvgGWpqtCL2raq/mQoJEU Message-ID: <015b49e3-a7d4-45f0-1ffd-b9be97215a54@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 17:30:18 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/68.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.14 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Archives-Salt: 797643f6-b393-42c9-9375-e745fc322e7a X-Archives-Hash: 81418cd91708416e86a6c40b0505ff34 Rich Freeman wrote: > On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 7:37 AM Dale wrote: >> Path two, I've researched building a NAS using a Raspberry Pi 4 8GB as >> another option. They come as parts, cases too, but the newer and faster >> models of Raspberry Pi 4 with more ram seem to work pretty well. > For this sort of application the key improvement of the Pi4 over its > predecessors is IO. The Pi4 has USB3 and gigabit ethernet, and they > are independent, so you get the full bandwidth of both (in theory). > That is a massive step up over USB2 and 100Mbps ethernet that consumes > the USB2 bandwidth. > > I can't really speak to the commercial solutions as I haven't used > them. Main concern there is just the limited capacity, lack of > expandability, and so on. Some are no doubt better than others in > those regards. > > As far as DIY goes, you can definitely do all of that with a Pi4. > Don't expect it to perform as well as sticking it on a decent amd64 > motherboard, but for backup and saturating the throughput of 1 hard > drive at a time it can probably mostly make do. Encryption can be > accomplished either with cryptsetup or a filesystem that has native > encryption like ZFS. I've done both on Pi4s for storage. I will warn > you that zfs encryption is not hardware-optimized on ARM, so that will > not perform very well - it will be completely functional, but you will > get CPU-bound. Linux-native encryption (ie cryptsetup/LUKS) will use > hardware capabilities on the Pi4, assuming you're using something it > supports (I think I'm using AES which performs adequately). > > For the Pi4 you would need to use USB storage, but for hard drives IMO > this is perfectly acceptable, especially on a Pi. The gigabit > ethernet and internal IO of the Pi is only going to max out one hard > drive no matter how you connect it, so the USB3 interface will not be > a bottleneck. On ARM SBCs that have PCIe you don't really get any > better performance with an HBA and SATA/SCSI simply because the board > IO is already pretty limited. USB3 is actually pretty fast for > spinning disks, but depending on the number of hosts/etc it could > become a bottleneck on a decent motherboard with a large number of > drives. If you're talking about an amd64 with a 10GbE NIC and a > decent HBA with sufficient PCIe lanes for both then obviously that is > going to saturate more spinning disks. For NVMe you absolutely need > to go that route (probably need to consider server-class hardware > too). > > I use USB3 hard drives on Pis for my bulk storage because I care about > capacity far more than performance, and with a distributed filesystem > the performance is still good enough for what I'm doing. If I needed > block storage for containers/VMs/whatever then use a different > solution, but that gets expensive fast. > > Oh, one other thing. One of your issues is that you're using a backup > solution that just dumps everything into a single file/directory and > requires all the backup storage to be mounted at the same time in a > single filesystem. There are solutions that do not have this > requirement - particularly ones that are adaptable to tape. > Unfortunately the best FOSS option I've found for this on linux is > bacula and that is a serious PITA to use. If anybody has a better one > I'm all ears (the requirement is to be able to store a backup across > multiple hard drives, and this can't involve first storing it all in > one place and then splitting it up later, or having more than one > storage drive attached at the same time - basically I want to treat > hard drives like tapes). > > If you're storing a LOT of backups then LTO is another option. Every > time I do the math on that option it never makes sense unless you're > backing up a LOT of data. If you got to a point where your backups > consumed 10+ max-capacity hard drives it might start to make sense. > Those USB3 hard drives on sale for $15/TB though are just really hard > to beat when the tapes aren't all that much cheaper and the drives > cost $1k. > >From my understanding, you are right about USB3 and GB ethernet being the big change.  They also have more memory and faster CPUs but if you bottleneck the data with slow USB and ethernet with the old ones, who needs a fast CPU?  I think they realized that the USB and ethernet had to improve.  It got better from there.  https://shop.allnetchina.cn/collections/sata-hat/products/dual-sata-hat-open-frame-for-raspberry-pi-4 I found the above.  From my understanding, it allows a SATA drive to connect to either 2 or 4 bays.  That card appears to connect with USB3 ports but I can't see the bottom.  Odds are, especially if data is encrypted, the CPU will likely max out before the USB and ethernet.  I'd think anyway.  From what little I've read, they seem to be pretty fast.  One thing I like about the Raspberry option, I can upgrade it later.  I can simply take out the old, put in new, upgrade done.  If I buy a prebuilt NAS, they pretty much are what they are if upgrading isn't a option.  Some of the more expensive ones may be upgradable, maybe.  I just wonder, could I use that board and just hook it to my USB port and a external power supply and skip the Raspberry Pi part?  I'd bet not tho.  ;-) Dale :-)  :-)