[gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0

[gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0

[Chris Gianelloni]

Hello everyone,

Release Engineering is in the planning stages for 2008.0, so we're
asking for input from the community on things that they'd like to see
added/changed/removed from our release media.  All requests should be
something Release Engineering actually can accomplish, like profile
changes, or changes to the stages or ISO images.  We are interested in
all ideas, though we may only choose a few, as time and mirror space are
definite considerations.

So, if you'd like to see something changed in Gentoo's releases, come on
over to the gentoo-releng mailing list and join in the fun!

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer
-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-releng] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Call for feature requests for 2008.0

[Michael Marineau]

On Jan 24, 2008 10:23 AM, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> Release Engineering is in the planning stages for 2008.0, so we're
> asking for input from the community on things that they'd like to see
> added/changed/removed from our release media.  All requests should be
> something Release Engineering actually can accomplish, like profile
> changes, or changes to the stages or ISO images.  We are interested in
> all ideas, though we may only choose a few, as time and mirror space are
> definite considerations.
>
> So, if you'd like to see something changed in Gentoo's releases, come on
> over to the gentoo-releng mailing list and join in the fun!

I've got one tiny request and a slightly unrelated question. First,
could we add rsync to the minimal install cd images? I tend to find
myself booting to a cd and then copying over an rsync binary.

Second, I saw on the release meeting agenda there was an item about
doing automated internal builds. I missed the meeting and I haven't
seen anyone post a log yet so I don't know what was discussed. I
currently do automated weekly stage{1,2,3} builds for use at the OSL
for x86/amd64 and could easily add ppc64. Would people find it useful
if I started posting those publicly in some semi-official manner?

Cheers,
-- 
Michael Marineau
Oregon State University
mike@marineau.org
-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0

[Andrew Gaffney]

Michael Marineau wrote:
> On Jan 24, 2008 10:23 AM, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> Release Engineering is in the planning stages for 2008.0, so we're
>> asking for input from the community on things that they'd like to see
>> added/changed/removed from our release media.  All requests should be
>> something Release Engineering actually can accomplish, like profile
>> changes, or changes to the stages or ISO images.  We are interested in
>> all ideas, though we may only choose a few, as time and mirror space are
>> definite considerations.
>>
>> So, if you'd like to see something changed in Gentoo's releases, come on
>> over to the gentoo-releng mailing list and join in the fun!
> 
> I've got one tiny request and a slightly unrelated question. First,
> could we add rsync to the minimal install cd images? I tend to find
> myself booting to a cd and then copying over an rsync binary.

No. See bug #90414 for details.

> Second, I saw on the release meeting agenda there was an item about
> doing automated internal builds. I missed the meeting and I haven't
> seen anyone post a log yet so I don't know what was discussed. I
> currently do automated weekly stage{1,2,3} builds for use at the OSL
> for x86/amd64 and could easily add ppc64. Would people find it useful
> if I started posting those publicly in some semi-official manner?

These builds aren't for public consumption. They're for QA purposes. We've 
already been doing automated weekly stage[1-3] builds for x86/amd64 on poseidon, 
and I think another arch may have been using my script, as well.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0

[M. Edward (Ed) Borasky]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> Release Engineering is in the planning stages for 2008.0, so we're
> asking for input from the community on things that they'd like to see
> added/changed/removed from our release media.  All requests should be
> something Release Engineering actually can accomplish, like profile
> changes, or changes to the stages or ISO images.  We are interested in
> all ideas, though we may only choose a few, as time and mirror space are
> definite considerations.
> 
> So, if you'd like to see something changed in Gentoo's releases, come on
> over to the gentoo-releng mailing list and join in the fun!
> 

Well ... it's been a while since I saw an update to the *installer*, but 
aside from that I don't have any "feature requests". For the benefit of 
folks with slower hardware, you might want to think about installing the 
binaries of Open Office, Firefox, Thunderbird and Evolution on a 
networkless install from the CD.
-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0

[Andrew Gaffney]

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> Release Engineering is in the planning stages for 2008.0, so we're
>> asking for input from the community on things that they'd like to see
>> added/changed/removed from our release media.  All requests should be
>> something Release Engineering actually can accomplish, like profile
>> changes, or changes to the stages or ISO images.  We are interested in
>> all ideas, though we may only choose a few, as time and mirror space are
>> definite considerations.
>>
>> So, if you'd like to see something changed in Gentoo's releases, come on
>> over to the gentoo-releng mailing list and join in the fun!
> 
> Well ... it's been a while since I saw an update to the *installer*, but 

Uhh, the installer is updated when there's a new release. We had a new version 
of the installer ready for the failed 2007.1 release, but it will end up on 2008.0.

> aside from that I don't have any "feature requests". For the benefit of 
> folks with slower hardware, you might want to think about installing the 
> binaries of Open Office, Firefox, Thunderbird and Evolution on a 
> networkless install from the CD.

All of these packages (except maybe Evolution) are available on the LiveCD for 
installation as part of a networkless install with the installer. The LiveDVD 
should have Evolution as well. The installer won't install anything the user 
doesn't ask for. If you want it, check the box on the Extra Packages screen.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0

[M. Edward (Ed) Borasky]

Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
>> aside from that I don't have any "feature requests". For the benefit 
>> of folks with slower hardware, you might want to think about 
>> installing the binaries of Open Office, Firefox, Thunderbird and 
>> Evolution on a networkless install from the CD.
> 
> All of these packages (except maybe Evolution) are available on the 
> LiveCD for installation as part of a networkless install with the 
> installer. The LiveDVD should have Evolution as well. The installer 
> won't install anything the user doesn't ask for. If you want it, check 
> the box on the Extra Packages screen.

Yes, I know they're on the LiveCD. And if you install them networkless, 
they install the regular "ebuild", not the "-bin" version. So the next 
update makes you recompile. On slower machines, OpenOffice, for example, 
takes a long time to recompile. But if you put "openoffice-bin" on the 
LiveCD, that wouldn't happen.

Firefox, Evolution, Thunderbird and OpenOffice are packages just about 
everybody loads, they're packages of significant size taking a fair 
amount of time to recompile on a "typical 1 GHz" machine, and they have 
frequent updates. In fact, I only started building OpenOffice from 
source when I got my dual core Athlon64 X2 5200+ with 4 GB of RAM!

Maybe the dividing line should be CD vs. DVD. Put the "-bin" ones on the 
LiveCD but put the compiled versions on the LiveDVD, or both, since 
there's probably room for both on the DVD.
-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Fri, 2008-01-25 at 06:46 -0800, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> Firefox, Evolution, Thunderbird and OpenOffice are packages just about 
> everybody loads, they're packages of significant size taking a fair 
> amount of time to recompile on a "typical 1 GHz" machine, and they have 
> frequent updates. In fact, I only started building OpenOffice from 
> source when I got my dual core Athlon64 X2 5200+ with 4 GB of RAM!

Umm... we do use OOo-bin already.  We can't really switch to FF-bin,
though we can ship it (size dependending), since FF is a dependency of a
couple other things we ship.  Evolution is *not* a large package, and
doesn't take long to compile, nor is there a -bin version.  We can
definitely switch to TB-bin, though.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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[gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Peter Weber]

Hello,

I now that Chris Gianelloni loves his LiveCD an the GUI-Installer and I
know that he don't like to accept changes he don't support personally.
But I do that know, so please don't kill me:

Gentoo should have again an Universal-CD again, because:

* Support for network/networkless-installation on one release-media
* More flexibility as with Minimal-CD and LiveCD
* Compared with LiveCD the footprint is generally small (necessary
hardware, size of image)
* Offers the classic full "Shell-Installation" who is loved by the
gentoo-community (no voodoo-scripts, included stage3 and sources for the
most important packages like vanilla-sources and bootloaders)
* Could also offer a Ncurses-Installer and requires only some MB of
space on the disk (without X11, Gnome, OpenOffice)
* One consistent-installation way for all platforms (only x86/x86_64
doesn't offer it currently)
* Debian and Ubuntu (with its alternate-cd) offers currently more
flexible solutions than Gentoo! Hey, who is here the meta-distribution?
* There are currently unoffical Universal-CD avaiable, we don't need
much work to prepare: http://download.libexec.de/ting/2007.0/

Thanks to dertobi for the great work ;-)
Maybe he can support you with necessary and up-to-date catalyst files.

Please don't put this suggestion to your trash can, because you
personally don't need or want it. The Univeral-CD is and was always a
great installation-media, and it was simple.

This is no suggestion against the LiveCD or the Installer!

Thanks
Peter Weber






On Thu, 2008-01-24 at 10:23 -0800, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> Release Engineering is in the planning stages for 2008.0, so we're
> asking for input from the community on things that they'd like to see
> added/changed/removed from our release media.  All requests should be
> something Release Engineering actually can accomplish, like profile
> changes, or changes to the stages or ISO images.  We are interested in
> all ideas, though we may only choose a few, as time and mirror space are
> definite considerations.
> 
> So, if you'd like to see something changed in Gentoo's releases, come on
> over to the gentoo-releng mailing list and join in the fun!
> 
> -- 
> Chris Gianelloni
> Release Engineering Strategic Lead
> Games Developer

-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 22:20 +0100, Peter Weber wrote:
> Gentoo should have again an Universal-CD again, because:

No.  Never.  Quit suggesting we resurrect this low-quality piece of
crap.  We will never bring this back.  Ever.  It caused too many issues
and was more trouble than it was worth.

> * Support for network/networkless-installation on one release-media

Same for LiveCD...

> * More flexibility as with Minimal-CD and LiveCD

Bull.  The LiveCD has *way* more packages and has a much fuller
environment.  The LiveCD is a superset of the Minimal/Universal package
set.

> * Compared with LiveCD the footprint is generally small (necessary
> hardware, size of image)

Bull.  The Universal CD was nearly always a full 700MB.

> * Offers the classic full "Shell-Installation" who is loved by the
> gentoo-community (no voodoo-scripts, included stage3 and sources for the
> most important packages like vanilla-sources and bootloaders)

Yes, because everybody out there is too dumb to start the LiveCD with
"nox" or simply switch to a console of their choosing.

> * Could also offer a Ncurses-Installer and requires only some MB of
> space on the disk (without X11, Gnome, OpenOffice)

We *do* already do this.

> * One consistent-installation way for all platforms (only x86/x86_64
> doesn't offer it currently)

That is because we're moving to the Installer *from* the Universal.  

> * Debian and Ubuntu (with its alternate-cd) offers currently more
> flexible solutions than Gentoo! Hey, who is here the meta-distribution?

Ahh, yes.  Time for the accusations without any backing!

Got any other completely unproven statement to make?  Maybe users are
leaving Gentoo for Ubuntu because Gentoo has a graphical installer now?
How about that the Universal CD is being removed secretly from the
mirrors because Daniel Robbins owns the trademark on the words
"Universal CD" and won't sell it/license it to the Gentoo
Foundation?  ;]

> * There are currently unoffical Universal-CD avaiable, we don't need
> much work to prepare: http://download.libexec.de/ting/2007.0/

...and?

How cares?  Anyone can do this all they want.  What Release Engineering
*doesn't* have to do is support it.  After all, that's the entire point
of dropping them in the first place.

> Thanks to dertobi for the great work ;-)
> Maybe he can support you with necessary and up-to-date catalyst files.

Umm... 's/minimal/universal/' *.spec... ;]

> Please don't put this suggestion to your trash can, because you
> personally don't need or want it. The Univeral-CD is and was always a
> great installation-media, and it was simple.

Well, if you don't want your suggestion to go to the trash, please try
to come up with something *original* that hasn't already been shot down
100 times.

Thanks,

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer
-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Randall D. Wald]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2724 bytes --]

I second this, in particular the part about including stage3 on the CD;
I'm always annoyed when, after downloading and burning the LiveCD, I
need to download the stage3, possibly from a laptop without working
wireless.

Sincerely,

Randall

Peter Weber wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I now that Chris Gianelloni loves his LiveCD an the GUI-Installer and I
> know that he don't like to accept changes he don't support personally.
> But I do that know, so please don't kill me:
> 
> Gentoo should have again an Universal-CD again, because:
> 
> * Support for network/networkless-installation on one release-media
> * More flexibility as with Minimal-CD and LiveCD
> * Compared with LiveCD the footprint is generally small (necessary
> hardware, size of image)
> * Offers the classic full "Shell-Installation" who is loved by the
> gentoo-community (no voodoo-scripts, included stage3 and sources for the
> most important packages like vanilla-sources and bootloaders)
> * Could also offer a Ncurses-Installer and requires only some MB of
> space on the disk (without X11, Gnome, OpenOffice)
> * One consistent-installation way for all platforms (only x86/x86_64
> doesn't offer it currently)
> * Debian and Ubuntu (with its alternate-cd) offers currently more
> flexible solutions than Gentoo! Hey, who is here the meta-distribution?
> * There are currently unoffical Universal-CD avaiable, we don't need
> much work to prepare: http://download.libexec.de/ting/2007.0/
> 
> Thanks to dertobi for the great work ;-)
> Maybe he can support you with necessary and up-to-date catalyst files.
> 
> Please don't put this suggestion to your trash can, because you
> personally don't need or want it. The Univeral-CD is and was always a
> great installation-media, and it was simple.
> 
> This is no suggestion against the LiveCD or the Installer!
> 
> Thanks
> Peter Weber
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 2008-01-24 at 10:23 -0800, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> Release Engineering is in the planning stages for 2008.0, so we're
>> asking for input from the community on things that they'd like to see
>> added/changed/removed from our release media.  All requests should be
>> something Release Engineering actually can accomplish, like profile
>> changes, or changes to the stages or ISO images.  We are interested in
>> all ideas, though we may only choose a few, as time and mirror space are
>> definite considerations.
>>
>> So, if you'd like to see something changed in Gentoo's releases, come on
>> over to the gentoo-releng mailing list and join in the fun!
>>
>> -- 
>> Chris Gianelloni
>> Release Engineering Strategic Lead
>> Games Developer
> 


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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Andrew Gaffney]

Peter Weber wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I now that Chris Gianelloni loves his LiveCD an the GUI-Installer and I
> know that he don't like to accept changes he don't support personally.
> But I do that know, so please don't kill me:
> 
> Gentoo should have again an Universal-CD again, because:
> 
> * Support for network/networkless-installation on one release-media

The LiveCD does this.

> * More flexibility as with Minimal-CD and LiveCD

The only "flexibility" that the universal has over the LiveCD is in allowing you 
a little more customization during a networkless install. However, you can 
always customize after the fact after installing with the installer.

> * Compared with LiveCD the footprint is generally small (necessary
> hardware, size of image)

If you want small, use the minimal. Also, you seem to be forgetting the GRP CD, 
which is required to make the universal CD actually useful.

> * Offers the classic full "Shell-Installation" who is loved by the
> gentoo-community (no voodoo-scripts, included stage3 and sources for the
> most important packages like vanilla-sources and bootloaders)

Why can't you open a terminal and install? I know I've done it many times from 
the LiveCD.

> * Could also offer a Ncurses-Installer and requires only some MB of
> space on the disk (without X11, Gnome, OpenOffice)
> * One consistent-installation way for all platforms (only x86/x86_64
> doesn't offer it currently)
> * Debian and Ubuntu (with its alternate-cd) offers currently more
> flexible solutions than Gentoo! Hey, who is here the meta-distribution?

Good for them.

> * There are currently unoffical Universal-CD avaiable, we don't need
> much work to prepare: http://download.libexec.de/ting/2007.0/

You're always welcome to build your own media if you don't like what we put out. 
Keep in mind that we are *volunteers*. We like the LiveCD, because it's easier 
to build and test. That means less time taken and less stress for us. If you 
don't like it, become a dev and volunteer for release engineering, and build the 
universal CDs yourself.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Andrew Gaffney]

Randall D. Wald wrote:
> I second this, in particular the part about including stage3 on the CD;
> I'm always annoyed when, after downloading and burning the LiveCD, I
> need to download the stage3, possibly from a laptop without working
> wireless.

The LiveDVD includes stages and a snapshot.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Markus Hauschild]

On Feb 4, 2008 10:26 PM, Andrew Gaffney <agaffney@gentoo.org> wrote:
> You're always welcome to build your own media if you don't like what we put out.
> Keep in mind that we are *volunteers*. We like the LiveCD, because it's easier
> to build and test.

Some people just like to stick with the stuff they are used to ;) I'd
also prefer the Universal CD over the other methods but usually I just
stick with my minimal + copy from LAN and I just have to accept that
you are no longer offering an Universal CD.

> That means less time taken and less stress for us. If you
> don't like it, become a dev and volunteer for release engineering, and build the
> universal CDs yourself.

Copy n pasteing a config that would be the Universal CD is worth a
developer position ;)

--

Cheers, Markus
-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Peter Weber]

> The LiveDVD includes stages and a snapshot.

Interesting and good, but the LiveDVD is, let us say the truth -
overkill.

A other good solution would be merging Universal and Minimal-CD
togehter, so we offer only a smaller Universal-CD (about 200-400 MB) and
a complete LiveCD (about 700 MB).

> * Support for network/networkless-installation on one release-media

> The LiveCD does this.

No. Only the Installer does this! This is not possible via shell,
because the users have no access to the voodoo-scripts.

> Why can't you open a terminal and install? I know I've done it many
times from 
the LiveCD.

Why nobody removes Gnome, Open-Office from the LiveCD and replace it by
a true Stage3? It would be also nice, not be forced always switch of the
automatic start of the howl X11-Crap.
Default could be the plain shell, as ever, and a message who says the
user he could type "installer" (for ncurses-installer) and
"gui-installer"  (for X11 with Installer). Gentoo is about choices ;-)


Best Wishes
Peter








On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 15:28 -0600, Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> Randall D. Wald wrote:
> > I second this, in particular the part about including stage3 on the CD;
> > I'm always annoyed when, after downloading and burning the LiveCD, I
> > need to download the stage3, possibly from a laptop without working
> > wireless.
> 
> The LiveDVD includes stages and a snapshot.
> 
> -- 
> Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
> Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Markus Hauschild]

On Feb 4, 2008 10:47 PM, Peter Weber <peterle@hottemptation.org> wrote:
> > The LiveDVD includes stages and a snapshot.
>
> Interesting and good, but the LiveDVD is, let us say the truth -
> overkill.
>
> A other good solution would be merging Universal and Minimal-CD
> togehter, so we offer only a smaller Universal-CD (about 200-400 MB) and
> a complete LiveCD (about 700 MB).

I'd love a minimal + stage3 + portage-snapshot + stuff you really need
(kernel sources, grub, maybe a syslogger)
But I guess I'd have to make that one myself then (and then its not
worth the effort)

--

Cheers, Markus
-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Andrew Gaffney]

Markus Hauschild wrote:
> On Feb 4, 2008 10:47 PM, Peter Weber <peterle@hottemptation.org> wrote:
>>> The LiveDVD includes stages and a snapshot.
>> Interesting and good, but the LiveDVD is, let us say the truth -
>> overkill.
>>
>> A other good solution would be merging Universal and Minimal-CD
>> togehter, so we offer only a smaller Universal-CD (about 200-400 MB) and
>> a complete LiveCD (about 700 MB).
> 
> I'd love a minimal + stage3 + portage-snapshot + stuff you really need
> (kernel sources, grub, maybe a syslogger)
> But I guess I'd have to make that one myself then (and then its not
> worth the effort)

That doesn't even make sense. A universal CD is nothing but a minimal plus some 
stuff. You can't merge them together, unless you're talking about getting rid of 
the minimal all together, and then that's even dumber.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Peter Weber]

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 22:49 +0100, Markus Hauschild wrote:
> On Feb 4, 2008 10:47 PM, Peter Weber <peterle@hottemptation.org>
> wrote:
> > > The LiveDVD includes stages and a snapshot.
> >
> > Interesting and good, but the LiveDVD is, let us say the truth -
> > overkill.
> >
> > A other good solution would be merging Universal and Minimal-CD
> > togehter, so we offer only a smaller Universal-CD (about 200-400 MB)
> and
> > a complete LiveCD (about 700 MB).
> 
> I'd love a minimal + stage3 + portage-snapshot + stuff you really need
> (kernel sources, grub, maybe a syslogger)
> But I guess I'd have to make that one myself then (and then its not
> worth the effort)
> 
> --
> 
> Cheers, Markus

I hope dertobi will release a new Universal-CD after 2008.0, I already
expected Gianelloni's reaction (W00T less than 180 seconds!!!!!!!!!!).




Most of Gianelloni's answers are technical wrong, or not proof-en.
Maybe he has not enough time to think about his answers *gg*

"bull"...nice style of conversation





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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Markus Hauschild]

On Feb 4, 2008 10:58 PM, Andrew Gaffney <agaffney@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> That doesn't even make sense. A universal CD is nothing but a minimal plus some
> stuff. You can't merge them together, unless you're talking about getting rid of
> the minimal all together, and then that's even dumber.
>

I'm talking about striping xorg, and all that kind of stuff from the LiveCD

--

Cheers, Markus
-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Peter Weber]

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 15:58 -0600, Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> That doesn't even make sense. A universal CD is nothing but a minimal plus some 
> stuff. You can't merge them together, unless you're talking about getting rid of 
> the minimal all together, and then that's even dumber.
> 
> -- 
> Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
> Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator

And why is dumber, because it need more diskspace?


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Dale]

Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> Markus Hauschild wrote:
>> On Feb 4, 2008 10:47 PM, Peter Weber <peterle@hottemptation.org> wrote:
>>>> The LiveDVD includes stages and a snapshot.
>>> Interesting and good, but the LiveDVD is, let us say the truth -
>>> overkill.
>>>
>>> A other good solution would be merging Universal and Minimal-CD
>>> togehter, so we offer only a smaller Universal-CD (about 200-400 MB)
>>> and
>>> a complete LiveCD (about 700 MB).
>>
>> I'd love a minimal + stage3 + portage-snapshot + stuff you really need
>> (kernel sources, grub, maybe a syslogger)
>> But I guess I'd have to make that one myself then (and then its not
>> worth the effort)
>
> That doesn't even make sense. A universal CD is nothing but a minimal
> plus some stuff. You can't merge them together, unless you're talking
> about getting rid of the minimal all together, and then that's even
> dumber.
>


I would also like to add that some of us can't download like others.  I,
for example, am on dial-up and a sucky one at that.  I have to order
most everything because it would take me a week or longer to download
about any CD.  I don't even want to think if I had to boot from the 2007
CD and install from scratch.  Typing in the commands, no problem at
all.  Waiting to download all the packages, HUGE problem.

I love options and Gentoo has a lot of them.  I would also like to have
options available just in case the unthinkable happens.  I would most
likely install Mandrake, old version that I still have, and then install
Gentoo from there. 

Anyone gave this any thought?  There are still a LOT of dial-up users
out here.  People seem to forget that, especially the website with all
the huge pages.  My Space comes to mind on that.

Just a thought.

Dale

:-)  :-) 
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[gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Brent Baude]

Peter and company,

It is important for you to understand that we, releng, are in the 
process of 2008.0 right now.  As such, it probably is not fair to 
knowingly push our buttons given that we have entered the execution 
phase of doing this work now.  Gentoo folks, users and devs alike, felt 
it was important to focus on getting 2008 out and in quick order.  This 
is where our time investment should be going.  The call for features is 
closed and our direction is clear.  We know what we are going to build 
and deliver.

I encourage you to find a way to constructively spool your input; and it 
should probably be aimed at post-2008.0.  This rag-tag releng team is 
stressed to its limits to meet deadlines.  If you feel so strongly about 
Gentoo and want to advocate for users, please join and begin to 
contribute to that extent.  This is how the current team members got 
started.



Regards,


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Scanned with Copfilter Version 0.84beta3a (ProxSMTP 1.6)
AntiVirus: ClamAV 0.91.2/5686 - Mon Feb  4 15:13:58 2008
by Markus Madlener @ http://www.copfilter.org
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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Peter Weber]

> Anyone gave this any thought?  There are still a LOT of dial-up users
> out here.  People seem to forget that, especially the website with all
> the huge pages.  My Space comes to mind on that.

Even users with high-speed connections want to stay independent and
free, relying on a network-connection is unsafe.

I want my backup of my OS in my hand and not on a web-server.
But I also prefer web-installation because I got immediately up-to-date
files.





Relying on a network-connection for installation is like relying on the
Windows-Activation and Windows live-update. If you need it, you can be
sure, that it will NOT work! Maybe they deny the access, delete the all
the files through a accident, or some stupid captain cut off your
backbone...*haha*

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Peter Weber]

Thanks for your answer. I respect this fully!
I just thought that this was a good chance for starting a discussion.




On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 16:18 -0600, Brent Baude wrote:
> Peter and company,
> 
> It is important for you to understand that we, releng, are in the 
> process of 2008.0 right now.  As such, it probably is not fair to 
> knowingly push our buttons given that we have entered the execution 
> phase of doing this work now.  Gentoo folks, users and devs alike, felt 
> it was important to focus on getting 2008 out and in quick order.  This 
> is where our time investment should be going.  The call for features is 
> closed and our direction is clear.  We know what we are going to build 
> and deliver.
> 
> I encourage you to find a way to constructively spool your input; and it 
> should probably be aimed at post-2008.0.  This rag-tag releng team is 
> stressed to its limits to meet deadlines.  If you feel so strongly about 
> Gentoo and want to advocate for users, please join and begin to 
> contribute to that extent.  This is how the current team members got 
> started.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Scanned with Copfilter Version 0.84beta3a (ProxSMTP 1.6)
> AntiVirus: ClamAV 0.91.2/5686 - Mon Feb  4 15:13:58 2008
> by Markus Madlener @ http://www.copfilter.org

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Markus Hauschild]

On Feb 4, 2008 11:18 PM, Brent Baude <ranger@gentoo.org> wrote:
> If you feel so strongly about
> Gentoo and want to advocate for users, please join and begin to
> contribute to that extent.  This is how the current team members got
> started.

Not to harm anyone, but why would one want to become a dev at the
releng team, if there is obviously no chance to get the Universal (or
a new similar media) readded, since the releng-lead is strictly
against that kind of media ?

Well summary for me: don't except any progress on this matter and
stick with minimal + hope you always have a LAN cable and another box
with stage3+portage or internet available when you want to install
gentoo on a box


--

Cheers, Markus
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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 22:33 +0100, Markus Hauschild wrote:
> > That means less time taken and less stress for us. If you
> > don't like it, become a dev and volunteer for release engineering, and build the
> > universal CDs yourself.
> 
> Copy n pasteing a config that would be the Universal CD is worth a
> developer position ;)

No, it most definitely is not.

cp /path/to/specs/livecd-stage2-minimal.spec /path/to/specs/livecd-stage2-universal.spec
sed -i 's/minimal/universal/' livecd-stage2-universal.spec
echo "livecd/overlay: /path/to/stages/and/distfiles" >>
livecd-stage2-universal.spec

Done.

That's it.  Yes, that's really it.  No, there's nothing special about
the Universal CD.  No, we still aren't going to offer it.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 22:47 +0100, Peter Weber wrote:
> A other good solution would be merging Universal and Minimal-CD
> togehter, so we offer only a smaller Universal-CD (about 200-400 MB) and
> a complete LiveCD (about 700 MB).

Wow.  I'm just not even going to respond to this one and just let
everybody who knows what the difference between a Minimal CD and an
Universal CD snicker to themselves.  ;]

> > * Support for network/networkless-installation on one release-media
> 
> > The LiveCD does this.
> 
> No. Only the Installer does this! This is not possible via shell,
> because the users have no access to the voodoo-scripts.

No, the LiveCD does this.  The Installer is a feature of the LiveCD.
Also, the Installer doesn't do networked installs, anymore.

> Why nobody removes Gnome, Open-Office from the LiveCD and replace it by
> a true Stage3? It would be also nice, not be forced always switch of the
> automatic start of the howl X11-Crap.
> Default could be the plain shell, as ever, and a message who says the
> user he could type "installer" (for ncurses-installer) and
> "gui-installer"  (for X11 with Installer). Gentoo is about choices ;-)

No, Gentoo is about empowering the user to make choices for themselves
and providing the tools to facilitate those choices.  It doesn't mean
that we have to spend countless hours building, testing, and supporting
media that we find to be rather useless due to its *very* limited
feature set versus the LiveCD.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 22:49 +0100, Markus Hauschild wrote:
> On Feb 4, 2008 10:47 PM, Peter Weber <peterle@hottemptation.org> wrote:
> > > The LiveDVD includes stages and a snapshot.
> >
> > Interesting and good, but the LiveDVD is, let us say the truth -
> > overkill.
> >
> > A other good solution would be merging Universal and Minimal-CD
> > togehter, so we offer only a smaller Universal-CD (about 200-400 MB) and
> > a complete LiveCD (about 700 MB).
> 
> I'd love a minimal + stage3 + portage-snapshot + stuff you really need
> (kernel sources, grub, maybe a syslogger)

You just described an Universal CD.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Markus Hauschild]

On Feb 4, 2008 11:36 PM, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >
> > I'd love a minimal + stage3 + portage-snapshot + stuff you really need
> > (kernel sources, grub, maybe a syslogger)
>
> You just described an Universal CD.
>

What I described wouldn't necessarily be a 700MB media.

Seems I have to learn how to use Catalyst then (and sorry for stealing
the time you need to get 2008.0 done - should be my last mail on this
topic)

--

Cheers, Markus
-- 
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Peter Weber]

Hours for, mhhh, five lines of code?
...think yourself about.


On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 14:35 -0800, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 22:47 +0100, Peter Weber wrote:
> > A other good solution would be merging Universal and Minimal-CD
> > togehter, so we offer only a smaller Universal-CD (about 200-400 MB) and
> > a complete LiveCD (about 700 MB).
> 
> Wow.  I'm just not even going to respond to this one and just let
> everybody who knows what the difference between a Minimal CD and an
> Universal CD snicker to themselves.  ;]
> 
> > > * Support for network/networkless-installation on one release-media
> > 
> > > The LiveCD does this.
> > 
> > No. Only the Installer does this! This is not possible via shell,
> > because the users have no access to the voodoo-scripts.
> 
> No, the LiveCD does this.  The Installer is a feature of the LiveCD.
> Also, the Installer doesn't do networked installs, anymore.
> 
> > Why nobody removes Gnome, Open-Office from the LiveCD and replace it by
> > a true Stage3? It would be also nice, not be forced always switch of the
> > automatic start of the howl X11-Crap.
> > Default could be the plain shell, as ever, and a message who says the
> > user he could type "installer" (for ncurses-installer) and
> > "gui-installer"  (for X11 with Installer). Gentoo is about choices ;-)
> 
> No, Gentoo is about empowering the user to make choices for themselves
> and providing the tools to facilitate those choices.  It doesn't mean
> that we have to spend countless hours building, testing, and supporting
> media that we find to be rather useless due to its *very* limited
> feature set versus the LiveCD.
> 

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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 23:50 +0100, Peter Weber wrote:
> Hours for, mhhh, five lines of code?

Five lines of code, gathering the distfiles together, and lots and lots
of testing.

Seriously, buddy.  Do me a favor and quit responding.  You've shown that
you don't really have a clue what's involved in creating/supporting the
Universal CD.  You've also already said that we're not going to bring it
back, so I don't really know what you're trying to accomplish here,
unless you just like to hear yourself talk.

> ...think yourself about.

...complete sentences and thoughts make yourself about which in the. ;]

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

Hi.

Peter Weber wrote:
>> Anyone gave this any thought?  There are still a LOT of dial-up users
>> out here.  People seem to forget that, especially the website with all
>> the huge pages.  My Space comes to mind on that.
>>     
>
> Even users with high-speed connections want to stay independent and
> free, relying on a network-connection is unsafe.
>
> I want my backup of my OS in my hand and not on a web-server.
> But I also prefer web-installation because I got immediately up-to-date
> files.
>
>   
Dale, that's true and we worry about that. However, there's so much we 
can do about it.

Peter, this is a source distro. The release engineering team created the 
GLI for those that wanted pre-compiled packages for a networkless 
install. But our regular install has to be network based. If you want to 
have a backup of your system, you should look into creating a stage4 
image of your system. Also, unlike other distros, one doesn't need to 
reinstall to update Gentoo.
> Relying on a network-connection for installation is like relying on the
> Windows-Activation and Windows live-update. If you need it, you can be
> sure, that it will NOT work! Maybe they deny the access, delete the all
> the files through a accident, or some stupid captain cut off your
> backbone...*haha*
>   
I've never done a networkless install of Gentoo and I've installed it a 
"few" times on several arches without any "network glitches".

-- 
Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo-forums / Userrel / SPARC / KDE

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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

[Dale]

Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> Hi.
>
> Peter Weber wrote:
>>> Anyone gave this any thought?  There are still a LOT of dial-up users
>>> out here.  People seem to forget that, especially the website with all
>>> the huge pages.  My Space comes to mind on that.
>>>     
>>
>> Even users with high-speed connections want to stay independent and
>> free, relying on a network-connection is unsafe.
>>
>> I want my backup of my OS in my hand and not on a web-server.
>> But I also prefer web-installation because I got immediately up-to-date
>> files.
>>
>>   
> Dale, that's true and we worry about that. However, there's so much we
> can do about it.
>

I just didn't want the team to forget us.  Dial-up is my only option at
this time, except DirecTv which is to expensive.  DSL is coming, I
think.  I said this somewhere before, I would hate to know I lost
everything and had to start over from a 2007 CD.  It's not the little
kinks in the upgrade that would bother me, it would be the download time.

I don't currently have a DVD drive but plan to get one soon.  I'm not
sure what is on there but it would be nice if there were a LOT of
distfiles stored on there since they have a lot of room on them.  A
regular update would be nice too.  Twice a year, around February and
again in July or August would be nice.  I mention that in case there is
a gcc upgrade or some other huge fix.  Even the *.1 version being the
second version would be cool.

These are just thoughts.

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-)
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