[gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Kamil Górnik]

Hi,

I suffer lack of vi (vim) on stage3 since ever. It's not a big binary 
and still there are those who prefer vi to nano.
Every time I install gentoo the first time I need to do after setting up 
the system is emerging vi before emerge -Du world.

best regards
Kamil
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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Andrew Gaffney]

Kamil Górnik wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I suffer lack of vi (vim) on stage3 since ever. It's not a big binary 
> and still there are those who prefer vi to nano.
> Every time I install gentoo the first time I need to do after setting up 
> the system is emerging vi before emerge -Du world.

We will *never* include vim instead of nano, simple because *everybody* can use 
nano, which many people have no fscking clue how to use vim. I've been a linux 
user for almost 8 years, and I've never learned how to use vim. We also will not 
include *both* packages, because that would bloat the stages unnecessarily.

Just because you prefer vim instead of nano doesn't mean we should use it. There 
are many aspects of the release where somebody thinks that *their* preference is 
the correct one. It usually isn't :P

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Brent Baude]

Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> Kamil Górnik wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I suffer lack of vi (vim) on stage3 since ever. It's not a big binary 
>> and still there are those who prefer vi to nano.
>> Every time I install gentoo the first time I need to do after setting 
>> up the system is emerging vi before emerge -Du world.
>
> We will *never* include vim instead of nano, simple because 
> *everybody* can use nano, which many people have no fscking clue how 
> to use vim. I've been a linux user for almost 8 years, and I've never 
> learned how to use vim. We also will not include *both* packages, 
> because that would bloat the stages unnecessarily.
>
> Just because you prefer vim instead of nano doesn't mean we should use 
> it. There are many aspects of the release where somebody thinks that 
> *their* preference is the correct one. It usually isn't :P
>
I've heard this numerous times.  And Andrew is correct in that stage 3 
should not ever include vim.  That said, how about a static version of 
vim that could hang out somewhere and be brought down and used quite 
easily.  I'll leave it to ya'll to figure that one out.


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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Andrew Gaffney]

Brent Baude wrote:
> Andrew Gaffney wrote:
>> Kamil Górnik wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I suffer lack of vi (vim) on stage3 since ever. It's not a big binary 
>>> and still there are those who prefer vi to nano.
>>> Every time I install gentoo the first time I need to do after setting 
>>> up the system is emerging vi before emerge -Du world.
>>
>> We will *never* include vim instead of nano, simple because 
>> *everybody* can use nano, which many people have no fscking clue how 
>> to use vim. I've been a linux user for almost 8 years, and I've never 
>> learned how to use vim. We also will not include *both* packages, 
>> because that would bloat the stages unnecessarily.
>>
>> Just because you prefer vim instead of nano doesn't mean we should use 
>> it. There are many aspects of the release where somebody thinks that 
>> *their* preference is the correct one. It usually isn't :P
>>
> I've heard this numerous times.  And Andrew is correct in that stage 3 
> should not ever include vim.  That said, how about a static version of 
> vim that could hang out somewhere and be brought down and used quite 
> easily.  I'll leave it to ya'll to figure that one out.

The busybox binary included in the stage3 has vi support built-in. If you really 
want to use vi, you can just do 'busybox vi /path/to/file'.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> Kamil Górnik wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I suffer lack of vi (vim) on stage3 since ever. It's not a big binary 
>> and still there are those who prefer vi to nano.
>> Every time I install gentoo the first time I need to do after setting 
>> up the system is emerging vi before emerge -Du world.
>
> We will *never* include vim instead of nano, simple because 
> *everybody* can use nano, which many people have no fscking clue how 
> to use vim. I've been a linux user for almost 8 years, and I've never 
> learned how to use vim. We also will not include *both* packages, 
> because that would bloat the stages unnecessarily.
>
> Just because you prefer vim instead of nano doesn't mean we should use 
> it. There are many aspects of the release where somebody thinks that 
> *their* preference is the correct one. It usually isn't :P
>
Also, this raises the editor debate that will most likely end in a 
"religious" war between vi(m) and emacs.

-- 
Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo-forums / Userrel / SPARC / KDE

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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Kamil Górnik]

Andrew Gaffney pisze:
> Brent Baude wrote:
>> Andrew Gaffney wrote:
>>> Kamil Górnik wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I suffer lack of vi (vim) on stage3 since ever. It's not a big 
>>>> binary and still there are those who prefer vi to nano.
>>>> Every time I install gentoo the first time I need to do after 
>>>> setting up the system is emerging vi before emerge -Du world.
>>>
>>> We will *never* include vim instead of nano, simple because 
>>> *everybody* can use nano, which many people have no fscking clue how 
>>> to use vim. I've been a linux user for almost 8 years, and I've never 
>>> learned how to use vim. We also will not include *both* packages, 
>>> because that would bloat the stages unnecessarily.
>>>
>>> Just because you prefer vim instead of nano doesn't mean we should 
>>> use it. There are many aspects of the release where somebody thinks 
>>> that *their* preference is the correct one. It usually isn't :P
>>>
>> I've heard this numerous times.  And Andrew is correct in that stage 3 
>> should not ever include vim.  That said, how about a static version of 
>> vim that could hang out somewhere and be brought down and used quite 
>> easily.  I'll leave it to ya'll to figure that one out.
> 
> The busybox binary included in the stage3 has vi support built-in. If 
> you really want to use vi, you can just do 'busybox vi /path/to/file'.
> 

ok, last response settles the matter for me :) I was required to learn 
vi at university and just got used of it. I'm just unabled to use 
anything apart of vi... And there's no need to start a war because of it ;)
Binary static version would require preparation for many ~archs... Once 
busybox has vi support we can 'EOF' this thread.
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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 21:49 +0100, Kamil Górnik wrote:
> I suffer lack of vi (vim) on stage3 since ever. It's not a big binary 
> and still there are those who prefer vi to nano.

This will likely never change, sorry.

> Every time I install gentoo the first time I need to do after setting up 
> the system is emerging vi before emerge -Du world.

...and the first step an emacs user has to do is emerge emacs... and...

We simply cannot win here.  No matter what, we'll have people who
complain.  Both emacs and vi are too "complex" for new users, and having
a text editor that is hard to use when first learning a new system is
simply too much to ask.  You know that you need vim, so just merge it.

Personally, I'd rather force vi and be done with it since it's listed in
the POSIX standard, but I'm also a vim user, so I have a pretty clear
bias.  This is exactly why you'll always see vim on the minimal CD, even
though it isn't "required" for installation.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 17:13 -0600, Brent Baude wrote:
> I've heard this numerous times.  And Andrew is correct in that stage 3 
> should not ever include vim.  That said, how about a static version of 
> vim that could hang out somewhere and be brought down and used quite 
> easily.  I'll leave it to ya'll to figure that one out.

Control + Alt + F2
# vim /mnt/gentoo/some/file

There's vim on every single CD.  There's no need for a static version.
It's on the CD for people who want it and can easily be merged at any
time.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Sun, 2008-01-27 at 08:13 +0100, Kamil Górnik wrote:
> Once busybox has vi support we can 'EOF' this thread.

There's no "once" to it.  It does.

Also, as I said, vim has been on the CD media for ages.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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RE: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Sylvain Alain]

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Hi, I'm not sure if I'm on the right list, but I would like to know what do you think of the Daniel Robbins Idea of creating tarball stages every weeks are so : http://www.funtoo.org/linux/

For now it's a good idea because of the expat problem and the age of the official tarball, but  in future can Gentoo provide more up to date tarball for the users  ?

Thanks ! 

Sylvain


> Subject: Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0
> From: wolf31o2@gentoo.org
> To: gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org
> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:58:30 -0800
> 
> On Sun, 2008-01-27 at 08:13 +0100, Kamil Górnik wrote:
> > Once busybox has vi support we can 'EOF' this thread.
> 
> There's no "once" to it.  It does.
> 
> Also, as I said, vim has been on the CD media for ages.
> 
> -- 
> Chris Gianelloni
> Release Engineering Strategic Lead
> Games Developer

_________________________________________________________________


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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Andrew Gaffney]

Sylvain Alain wrote:
> Hi, I'm not sure if I'm on the right list, but I would like to know what 
> do you think of the Daniel Robbins Idea of creating tarball stages every 
> weeks are so : http://www.funtoo.org/linux/
> 
> For now it's a good idea because of the expat problem and the age of the 
> official tarball, but  in future can Gentoo provide more up to date 
> tarball for the users  ?

Please, please don't top-post.

The problem with drobbins's weekly stage tarballs is that there is absolutely 
zero QA done on them. We can't with good conscience release completely untested 
stage tarballs out into the wild. We also don't want to have to deal with bug 
reports that would stem from this.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
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RE: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Sylvain Alain]

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Hi Andrew, and what about if the Gentoo devs release after 3 months a new tarball for the new user...if will remove the need to update their box and also, maybe it's a good idea to refresh the tarball between 2 majors profiles..

Sylvain

> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:33:01 -0600
> From: agaffney@gentoo.org
> To: gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0
> 
> Sylvain Alain wrote:
> > Hi, I'm not sure if I'm on the right list, but I would like to know what 
> > do you think of the Daniel Robbins Idea of creating tarball stages every 
> > weeks are so : http://www.funtoo.org/linux/
> > 
> > For now it's a good idea because of the expat problem and the age of the 
> > official tarball, but  in future can Gentoo provide more up to date 
> > tarball for the users  ?
> 
> Please, please don't top-post.
> 
> The problem with drobbins's weekly stage tarballs is that there is absolutely 
> zero QA done on them. We can't with good conscience release completely untested 
> stage tarballs out into the wild. We also don't want to have to deal with bug 
> reports that would stem from this.
> 
> -- 
> Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
> Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
> -- 
> gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
> 

_________________________________________________________________


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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Andrew Gaffney]

Sylvain Alain wrote:
> Hi Andrew, and what about if the Gentoo devs release after 3 months a 
> new tarball for the new user...if will remove the need to update their 
> box and also, maybe it's a good idea to refresh the tarball between 2 
> majors profiles..

Didn't I already ask you not to top post? Please don't top post.

Yeah, gentoo has tried quarterly releases before, back in 2004. The releases 
were of poor quality and the release engineering devs hated the lack of a break 
between almost constant release cycles.

You say it should only be stages, but if we do that, people will say that we 
should just refresh the minimal CD with a new kernel. And then people will argue 
that we should just refresh the LiveCD for new versions of large packages, 
because they don't want to do all the compiling to update to a new version.

Are you going to take the time to become a dev, contribute to the effort of 
building and testing these refreshes, fix bug, and all the other stuff that goes 
along with it?

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
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[gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Mirosław Mieszczak]

That would be nice to see midnight commander on live-cd, as it allow quick 
browsing over all directories, especially for new gentoo users (of course in 
case if they don't use installer).


Second thing I would like to see just on live-cd is kernel module for reiser4 
(of course in that case it should be with adnotation that this particular fs 
isn't supported by gentoo), there are many users who use this filesystem, and 
all of them must prepare their own livecd to install, or to repair the 
system.




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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Andrew Gaffney]

Mirosław Mieszczak wrote:
> That would be nice to see midnight commander on live-cd, as it allow quick 
> browsing over all directories, especially for new gentoo users (of course in 
> case if they don't use installer).

There already GUI file managers on the LiveCD.

> Second thing I would like to see just on live-cd is kernel module for reiser4 
> (of course in that case it should be with adnotation that this particular fs 
> isn't supported by gentoo), there are many users who use this filesystem, and 
> all of them must prepare their own livecd to install, or to repair the 
> system.

No. (Do I have to say more? :P)

You will see reiserfs4 support on the LiveCD when support for it is included 
upstream in the kernel. The gentoo-sources patchset doesn't (and never will) 
contain "experimental" features like that.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 08:02 +0100, Mirosław Mieszczak wrote:
> That would be nice to see midnight commander on live-cd, as it allow quick 
> browsing over all directories, especially for new gentoo users (of course in 
> case if they don't use installer).

Consider this one done.

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=208076

> Second thing I would like to see just on live-cd is kernel module for reiser4 
> (of course in that case it should be with adnotation that this particular fs 
> isn't supported by gentoo), there are many users who use this filesystem, and 
> all of them must prepare their own livecd to install, or to repair the 
> system.

It isn't in the mainline kernel, which is what is used to create
gentoo-sources.  Sorry, but it isn't happening until it hits mainline.
We don't support experimental features not in the main kernel sources.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer
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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Mirosław Mieszczak]

> You will see reiserfs4 support on the LiveCD when support for it is
> included upstream in the kernel. The gentoo-sources patchset doesn't (and
> never will) contain "experimental" features like that.

I can only say, what a pity.
I don't want to discuss abot the politics, stability of it etc, so the topic 
can be closed.

Regards
Mirek

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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Alex Howells]

On 1/29/08, Mirosław Mieszczak <mieszcz@zabrze.zigzag.pl> wrote:
> I can only say, what a pity.
> I don't want to discuss abot the politics, stability of it etc, so the topic
> can be closed.

There's nothing stopping you building your own LiveCD with the
support, however reiser4 hasn't been included upstream for numerous
reasons, and the work involved to maintain custom patchsets against
gentoo-sources for experimental features makes it a silly proposition.

Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Andrew Gaffney]

Mirosław Mieszczak wrote:
>> You will see reiserfs4 support on the LiveCD when support for it is
>> included upstream in the kernel. The gentoo-sources patchset doesn't (and
>> never will) contain "experimental" features like that.
> 
> I can only say, what a pity.
> I don't want to discuss abot the politics, stability of it etc, so the topic 
> can be closed.

Wow, some people see conspiracies everywhere. There's no "politics" involved.

The long-standing policy of the kernel team is to only include bug fixes that 
are going into upcoming releases of the kernel and other "small" features like 
squashfs (this one is for releng).

While most gentoo devs do refer to reiserfs as "ricerfs" and "hate" reiser4 even 
more than reiser3, it's usually for good reasons. For example, genkernel doesn't 
work on reiser4. I challenge you to tell me it's genkernel's fault and point out 
the problem.

But regardless of how anyone feels about reiser4, as soon as it's included in 
the "upstream" kernel (the kernel.org folks), it will appear in gentoo-sources 
and on the CD media.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
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Re: [gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Mirosław Mieszczak]

> Wow, some people see conspiracies everywhere. There's no "politics"
> involved.
>
> The long-standing policy of the kernel team is to only include bug fixes
> that are going into upcoming releases of the kernel and other "small"
> features like squashfs (this one is for releng).
>
You understood me incorrectly, when I written "politics" I meant politics of 
linux kernel maintainers, not gentoo-sources maintainers. So there was 
nothing against your team.


Regards

Mirek
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[gentoo-releng] Call for feature request for 2008.0

[Brent Baude]

Chris,

Please consider the following.  The bit about the apps is basically what 
others are suggesting.


Please consider the following for the tester checklist:

+ Did the network auto-configure as expected?

+ Some systems has multiple methods for connecting to the console, like 
serial, hvc, hvsi.  Did these alternative consoles work as expected?

+ Did you see any references to older releases in any messages or media?


And then you might want to add a question/section for application 
testing on the media.


+ If you tested a livecd/dvd, did Firefox, Audacious, xchat, pidgin, etc 
work?

^^ What I am getting at is whether we should have a core set of
applications that get tested.

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