[gentoo-releng] Release Info (long and thorough)

[gentoo-releng] Release Info (long and thorough)

[John Davis]

Hi all:
Okay, here goes some more information.

For LiveCDs, the layout will go as follows:
Currently, catalyst built LiveCDs have:
/isolinux
/rr-moved
/x86-isogen.sh
/zisofs (depends on the loopback you use)

rr-moved and x86-isogen.sh are going to go. I will start hacking on 
catalyst to see if I can clean that up a bit. What we have to add now is 
  a README in the liveCD /, and the appropriate docs dirs, so the liveCD 
will now look like this:

/README
/docs/{release-notes/{html/txt},handbook/{html,txt}}
/isolinux
/rr-moved
/snapshots
/stages
/x86-isogen.sh
/zisofs (depends on the loopback you use)

Remember to get your release notes prepared and posted on the web. 
Release notes are posted to the web under the releng project:

<http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/release/2004.0/arch/relnotes.xml>

Bug me for commit access.

Next, I need some information on what arch is doing what. From what I 
know, these arches are doing to following for 2004.0:

x86: stages, LiveCD, snapshot, GRP
ppc: stages, LiveCD, snapshot, GRP
sparc: stages, LiveCD, snapshot GRP
MIPS: stages, snapshot
hardened: stages, snapshot, GRP

If I am wrong in anything above, please mail me ASAP so I can get swift 
the documentation that he needs.

Next, I am going to paste directly from swift so that we can get this 
all answered:

- What options are available when the new LiveCD boots? kernel and
   parameters.
- Will keymap selection be integrated in the boot-process and if so, how?
- Is LVM2 and EVMS supported ?
- What kernel sources will be available on the 2-CD LiveCD set?
- What architectures does genkernel support currently?

Other than that, please just keep me abreast of what is going on.

Cheers,
//John

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Re: [gentoo-releng] Release Info (long and thorough)

[Brad House]

Commenting below:

> For LiveCDs, the layout will go as follows:
> Currently, catalyst built LiveCDs have:
> /rr-moved
> /x86-isogen.sh

ehh??  don't know what /rr-moved is, and there is no reason
why x86-isogen.sh should be in there at all, they're not on
mine (for amd64 and were not there when I was testing for x86).


> Next, I need some information on what arch is doing what. From what I
> know, these arches are doing to following for 2004.0:
>
> x86: stages, LiveCD, snapshot, GRP
> ppc: stages, LiveCD, snapshot, GRP
> sparc: stages, LiveCD, snapshot GRP
> MIPS: stages, snapshot
> hardened: stages, snapshot, GRP

amd64: stages, LiveCD,snapshot GRP

> Next, I am going to paste directly from swift so that we can get this
> all answered:
>
> - What options are available when the new LiveCD boots? kernel and
>    parameters.

Each kernel has a  -nofb   variant, so if you have 2 kernels, one named
gentoo, the other smp, they can boot with
: gentoo, smp, gentoo-nofb, and smp-nofb
And they can hit F1 at the isolinux prompt to see these kernel options
as well, as that file is auto-generated that it shows.
Obviously this is strictly x86/amd64 info.

Now the other parameters are going to be the same as they were before,
stuff like  'doscsi', 'dousb', etc ... as that stuff shouldn't have changed.
The new genkernel still honors those, as does the baselayout/autoconfig.

> - Will keymap selection be integrated in the boot-process and if so, how?

it is NOT currently.  Someone needs to step up that knows anything about
keymaps, and provide the necessary info, as I don't have a clue (as most
people like me in the US).

> - Is LVM2 and EVMS supported ?

Yes, LVM2 and EVMS2 are included on the LiveCD.

> - What kernel sources will be available on the 2-CD LiveCD set?

err, one I can't answer, I assume this is a question for each arch??
for amd64, we're only doing gentoo-dev-sources as that's the only
kernel we can support.

> - What architectures does genkernel support currently?

everything except PPC pretty much.  I think the PPC people have
pretty much refused to commit their profile to that even though
I've asked on numerous occasions.  Everyone seems to defer to
someone else.  It's really really easy guys! This genkernel was
designed to be multi-arch! Please commit to  gentoo/src/genkernel_bradmssw
asap!

-Brad

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Re: [gentoo-releng] Release Info (long and thorough)

[Pieter Van den Abeele]

Hi,

On 10 Feb 2004, at 16:26, Brad House wrote:

>> - What architectures does genkernel support currently?
>
> I think the PPC people have pretty much refused to commit their 
> profile to that even though
> I've asked on numerous occasions. Everyone seems to defer to someone 
> else.
> It's really really easy guys!  This genkernel was designed to be 
> multi-arch!
> Please commit to  gentoo/src/genkernel_bradmssw asap!

Sorry, but we don't have a profile to commit -yet-.

What are our reasons?

The ppc 2004.0 sneak preview livecds I uploaded yesterday were built 
entirely with catalyst, except for the initrd. We used our own initrd 
because a minimum requirement for a ppc release is stable gcloop 
decompression. Zisofs
does not work on ppc. An updated ppc kde/gnome livecd has been 
requested upon by the store and our users for a while, I therefore 
prioritized releasing a 2004.0 <emphasis added>preview</emphasis added> 
over adding support to a Fisher Price tool, that because of its current 
simplicity we are unable to use for a release including a new kde/gnome 
livecd; The addition of gcloop support to genkernel is the 
responsibility of the genkernel maintainer, not ours.

Another reason is your inability to communicate ppc64 livecd plans to 
me. I expect ppc64 livecds to be exactly the same as a regular ppc 
livecd. If I'm not mistaken you already announced ppc64 livecds on 
-dev, since you're also the genkernel developer, I would expect you to 
be qualified enough to integrate ppc livecd support yourself and allow 
me to spend more time on other assets important to gentoo. My question 
about this to this list (2 feb) is still unanswered. I'll repeat it 
here:

"Is there a possibility ppc64 could integrate ppc32 livecd support into 
catalyst? If I'm not mistaken brad_mssw is closely related to both 
ppc64, catalyst, genkernel and even amd64 for which already livecds 
have been created using catalyst. I guess this would speed up 
development enourmeously."

What is scheduled to happen?

Genkernel will get its ppc profile before 2004.0/ppc. For an accurate 
eta, I need to be able to schedule time for it. What could help 
realizing that is better communication, having an idea about current 
plans for genkernel/catalyst, and better catalyst livecd documentation 
(genkernel docs are fantastic). I have asked for these on this list on 
the 2nd of this month in two separate emails.

Best regards,

Pieter


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Re: [gentoo-releng] Release Info (long and thorough)

[Brad House]

> Zisofs does not work on ppc.

Would have been nice if I would have been told that not having
gcloop was a showstopper for ppc.

> The addition of gcloop support to genkernel is the
> responsibility of the genkernel maintainer, not ours.

yep, and I thought every arch was kosher with what genkernel
currently provided for the 2004.0 release, and it was cool
if gcloop was a 2004.1 thing.

> Another reason is your inability to communicate ppc64 livecd plans to
> me. I expect ppc64 livecds to be exactly the same as a regular ppc
> livecd.

Well, the bootloader is the only 'same' thing about it. And like I said,
amd64 != x86, just like ppc64 != ppc ... you still have yet to address
this.

> If I'm not mistaken you already announced ppc64 livecds on
> -dev, since you're also the genkernel developer, I would expect you to
> be qualified enough to integrate ppc livecd support yourself and allow
> me to spend more time on other assets important to gentoo.

The genkernel profiles will be totally different between ppc and ppc64,
don't know what you're talking about there.  It's only the catalyst support
for the bootloader that will draw any similarities.

> My question
> about this to this list (2 feb) is still unanswered. I'll repeat it
> here:
>
> "Is there a possibility ppc64 could integrate ppc32 livecd support into
> catalyst? If I'm not mistaken brad_mssw is closely related to both
> ppc64, catalyst, genkernel and even amd64 for which already livecds
> have been created using catalyst. I guess this would speed up
> development enourmeously."

I announced ppc64 would be ready for 2004.1, if you plan on doing a
2004.0 release, you might want to do some of the work yourself.  Plus,
I have no way to know what kernel configs a 32bit G3/G4 system would
need, and what kernels you all do/can use.

>
> What is scheduled to happen?

Hopefully have an initial ppc64 livecd by then end of this month for
pSeries, iSeries, but it will be extremely beta, and probably use
the 'normal' loop.

>
> Genkernel will get its ppc profile before 2004.0/ppc. For an accurate
> eta, I need to be able to schedule time for it.

Again, the profile is extremely trivial.  It consists of only a couple
of files, most of which you probably already have (e.g. kernel config).

> What could help
> realizing that is better communication, having an idea about current
> plans for genkernel/catalyst, and better catalyst livecd documentation
> (genkernel docs are fantastic). I have asked for these on this list on
> the 2nd of this month in two separate emails.

I take it you're being sarcastic on the genkernel docs. But if you
just even took the time to glance at the profile directories that
are already in genkernel and the README file that comes along with
it I think you should be able to figure it out in less than 2 minutes.
If not, I really have serious questions about you.

/me feels another flame war coming on.

-Brad

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Re: [gentoo-releng] Release Info (long and thorough)

[Pieter Van den Abeele]

On 10 Feb 2004, at 23:05, Brad House wrote:

>> Zisofs does not work on ppc

One of the reasons for the creation of a 2004.0/ppc sneak preview 
release was to give the genkernel team some time to implement gcloop 
compression in catalyst, this is no longer a ppc requirement for 2004.0 
since we have a recent kde/gnome cd now. Zisofs being ppc incompatible 
has been mentioned before on both this list and on a gentoo meeting on 
which the requirements for catalyst were discussed. I only contributed 
verbally to the requirement document for genkernel, and did not write 
the actual document, I wasn't asked to approve/check it either, in fact 
I haven't seen one. Please note that the genkernel SRS writer included 
'pvdabeel should know' in his notes. I'm not the one to blame if nobody 
asks me, or takes into account my remarks. It is clear there was an 
issue with genkernel requirements , holding back ppc, and I solved it. 
Shouldn't we all be happy about it?

The ppc team is completely kosher with current genkernel for 2004.0, we 
were however due to time and manpower constraints (this included 
building a sneak preview) unable to commit our stuff as fast as the 
others, something which you described as non-kosher ("we -refused- to 
commit", rather than "we are -unable- to commit", do you see the 
difference?). My email described why we were unable to commit as fast 
as the other architectures. There's no reason to be paranoid about it: 
Genkernel will get its much requested ppc profile, but everything at 
the right time. We are busy, busy, busy...

I have addressed ppc64 with Tom Gall on irc, I was hoping we could do 
the same,  hence my numerous requests (2nd of february). What I require 
to happen between ppc32 and ppc64 is coordination. I don't want to see 
anything that prevents coordination, and we clearly have started out in 
an incorrect way.

I'm glad to hear (finally) that ppc64 will do livecd support by the end 
of this month. ppc will most likely wait with integrating ppc32 livecd 
support until you're finished then, to avoid duplicating efforts (think 
linuxrc rather than kernel .configs). I find it rather annoying that 
you're not able to answer this simple question much sooner, and am 
happy I will be able to fall back on your (so far excellent) genkernel 
work at the end of this month. Again, this will allow me to invest more 
time in other gentoo aspects.

I am not being sarcasting about genkernel documentation or genkernel 
code, I know how annoying initrd creation can be. I wrote on the second 
of february that catalyst lacks good livecd documentation, genkernel on 
the contrary is an excellent example of how it should be done. There 
are more comments in there than code :-) Please let us start working 
together in a professional context.

> /me feels another flame war coming on.

I don't see why that would help gentoo?

Please note that I have updated my documents to include ppc64 in the 
ppc scope. I will be very flexible about ppc64, but I require you to 
use your coordination capabilities to communicate with ppc32, if you're 
intending on leading that subproject.

Best regards,

Pieter Van den Abeele


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Re: [gentoo-releng] Release Info (long and thorough)

[Daniel Robbins]

On Tue, 2004-02-10 at 14:52, Pieter Van den Abeele wrote:
> On 10 Feb 2004, at 16:26, Brad House wrote:
> > I think the PPC people have pretty much refused to commit their 
> > profile to that even though I've asked on numerous occasions. 
>
> Sorry, but we don't have a profile to commit -yet-.
> 
> What are our reasons?

[snip]

> An updated ppc kde/gnome livecd has been 
> requested upon by the store and our users for a while, I therefore 
> prioritized releasing a 2004.0 <emphasis added>preview</emphasis added> 
> over adding support to a Fisher Price tool, that because of its current 
> simplicity we are unable to use for a release including a new kde/gnome 
> livecd; The addition of gcloop support to genkernel is the 
> responsibility of the genkernel maintainer, not ours.

OK, I don't like the direction this is taking. I'd like to be able to
back you up on your story but I can't. I think Brad's assessment is
correct.

Sincerely,

Daniel




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Re: [gentoo-releng] Release Info (long and thorough)

[Pieter Van den Abeele]

On 12 Feb 2004, at 01:24, Daniel Robbins wrote:

> OK, I don't like the direction this is taking. I'd like to be able to
> back you up on your story but I can't. I think Brad's assessment is
> correct.

Brad's assessment says we are intentionally -refusing- to commit. I 
don't like such a theme, and I certainly don't think it is correct.

We're doing as much as possible to ensure ppc has a 2004.0 genkernel 
profile and to ensure 2004.0 is fully build by catalyst.
However, it is clear that genkernel in its current form would probably 
not allow us to update the kde/gnome cd before 2004.0:
My request for both an informal genkernel and catalyst status update 
(on the 2nd of february) are still unanswered.
A direct result is that I couldn't tell whether cloop was planned or 
not.

A cd was needed for fosdem (already on the 22nd of february), requested 
by the store, and hasn't been updated for a long while.
I wanted to update the kde/gnome cd, and have reused the same initrd 
for the other cds, to avoid duplicating work.
PPC is fully committed to both genkernel and catalyst (both are 
excellent products).

I am going to create and commit a genkernel profile today. Again, we 
are not refusing to commit but rather limited in time and manpower.
Next time, please ask.

Pieter


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Re: [gentoo-releng] Release Info (long and thorough)

[Martin Schlemmer]

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On Tue, 2004-02-10 at 17:26, Brad House wrote:

> > - Will keymap selection be integrated in the boot-process and if so, how?
> 
> it is NOT currently.  Someone needs to step up that knows anything about
> keymaps, and provide the necessary info, as I don't have a clue (as most
> people like me in the US).
> 

I know how to change them, but that is about it :P  What happened to
the stuff that used to be on the CD?  Might integrate that into
functions-livecd.sh?


-- 

Martin Schlemmer
Gentoo Linux Developer, Desktop/System Team Developer
Cape Town, South Africa



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