[gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[hasufell]

Hi all,

I would like to improve support for alternative package managers in
Gentoo in any way possible and make a few points about why I think this
is important and useful. As the most important example right now, I will
talk about Paludis.

Paludis is a multi-format package manager[0] supporting Gentoo and has
been around since 2006. Since then, it has been used by Gentoo users and
developers.

Paludis supports all EAPIs and implements PMS[1] consistently. It has
been deemed stable on amd64 and x86 last year[2] and generally supports
the following architectures: alpha, amd64, arm, ia64, mips, ppc, ppc64,
s390, sparc, x86.[3]

It is also well known for its rich configuration system and the
strictness properties of the dependency resolver which is what most
people value it for.

Currently, there are not many support channels for people who combine
Gentoo with Paludis (only for both separately). Our main Gentoo support
channels are also a bit wary towards Paludis and I am hoping to not only
show that it is a very useful package manager, but that it also benefits
Gentoo as a meta-distribution to be open towards such innovative approaches.

My aim would be that all our main support channels like #gentoo, the
user mailing lists, the forums and so on treat user discussions
regarding alternative package managers in (almost) the same way as Portage.

That also means that we would have to integrate these alternatives in
our documentation, hopefully the official one. Because I think our
official documentation should discuss package managers in the same way
it discusses file systems. So, it is fine to recommend e.g. Portage and
ext4 as the main examples, but we should also mention zfs, btrfs,
Paludis, Pkgcore (when it catches up) and so on.
In the case of Paludis, the upstream documentation[4] is quite technical
and doesn't give a concise enough introduction for Gentoo beginners, who
want to follow a step-by-step guide. Because of that, I have written up
such a guide and proposed it to be included in the official Gentoo
handbook[5][6].

This could be the start of improving a number of things:
* introduce Gentoo beginners to useful PM alternatives
* improve support for these in all our main support channels
* users don't have to search hours for e.g. Paludis related guides,
which are scattered across ancient wikis and forum posts, any more
* raise awareness that Gentoo is different (and has a PMS for a reason)
* encourage other PMs (like Pkgcore[7]) by promising to treat them as
first-class citizens in Gentoo if they are able to support the full PMS
* make clear that we care about technology, no matter where it comes from

What do you guys think about this? Do you see any other things that need
to be tackled in order to get there? Maybe create a project for this?

I think we need to start somewhere and maybe the official documentation
is that place, because it is more than just a technical statement. And I
think we need such a statement.


[0] http://paludis.exherbo.org/index.html
[1] https://dev.gentoo.org/~ulm/pms/head/pms.html
[2] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=520874
[3] https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-apps/paludis/paludis-2.4.0.ebuild#n20
[4] http://paludis.exherbo.org/configuration/index.html
[5] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=557324
[6] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Hasufell/Test#Alternative:_Configuring_Paludis
[7] https://github.com/pkgcore/pkgcore

--
Best regards,
Julian Ospald

Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 15/08/15 19:24, hasufell wrote:
> What do you guys think about this?
+1.

> Do you see any other things that need to be tackled in order to
> get there?
Just go for it.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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[gentoo-project] Re: improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Alex Brandt]

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 19:24:12 hasufell wrote:
> What do you guys think about this?

This is awesome and as a paludis on Gentoo user I would love to see this 
work continue.

> Do you see any other things that need
> to be tackled in order to get there?

I think this is a great first step but can't suggest how to overcome any 
bias that might be in your way.

> Maybe create a project for this?

My understanding is that the project manager specification and 
documentation project would be appropriate venues for this.  If that's not 
that case then I would think a new project would be appropriate.

> I think we need to start somewhere and maybe the official documentation
> is that place, because it is more than just a technical statement. And I
> think we need such a statement.

+1

Regards,

-- 
Alex Brandt
Software Developer for Rackspace and Developer for Gentoo
http://blog.alunduil.com

Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 08/15/2015 01:24 PM, hasufell wrote:
> 
> What do you guys think about this?

Like it.


> Do you see any other things that need to be tackled in order to get
> there?

Getting rid of dynamic deps in portage. Until then it's too easy for
portage users to commit stuff that's broken to the stricter package
managers.

Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Zac Medico]

On 08/15/2015 10:47 AM, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 08/15/2015 01:24 PM, hasufell wrote:
>> Do you see any other things that need to be tackled in order to get
>> there?
> 
> Getting rid of dynamic deps in portage. Until then it's too easy for
> portage users to commit stuff that's broken to the stricter package
> managers.

Sure, dynamic deps is evil. However, for dependencies that come from
eclasses, it may be unavoidable to change dependencies of existing
ebuilds in ways that make dynamic deps matter.

Note that if a package manager has an option like emerge --changed-deps
and that option is used for all updates, then dynamic deps becomes a
moot point.
-- 
Thanks,
Zac

Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 15/08/15 20:03, Zac Medico wrote:
>>> Getting rid of dynamic deps in portage. Until then it's too
>>> easy for portage users to commit stuff that's broken to the
>>> stricter package managers.
> Sure, dynamic deps is evil
We did vote them out of Portage a long time ago in a team meeting.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Sven Vermeulen]

On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 12:35:11PM -0500, Alex Brandt wrote:
> > Do you see any other things that need
> > to be tackled in order to get there?
> 
> I think this is a great first step but can't suggest how to overcome any 
> bias that might be in your way.
> 
> > Maybe create a project for this?
> 
> My understanding is that the project manager specification and 
> documentation project would be appropriate venues for this.  If that's not 
> that case then I would think a new project would be appropriate.

I'll gladly help with the documentation part. I think that improving support
in general, and showing the "meta-distribution like" nature of Gentoo in
particular is a worthwhile goal here.

I don't use Paludis myself (nor do I use btrfs and some other file systems)
but from the draft you created I do think I can make a proper judgement of
how it works and where impact could be on the documentation or even the
handbook. We can fine-tune it then and put it live if there are no
objections.

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 1:24 PM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> That also means that we would have to integrate these alternatives in
> our documentation, hopefully the official one. Because I think our
> official documentation should discuss package managers in the same way
> it discusses file systems. So, it is fine to recommend e.g. Portage and
> ext4 as the main examples, but we should also mention zfs, btrfs,
> Paludis, Pkgcore (when it catches up) and so on.
> In the case of Paludis, the upstream documentation[4] is quite technical
> and doesn't give a concise enough introduction for Gentoo beginners, who
> want to follow a step-by-step guide. Because of that, I have written up
> such a guide and proposed it to be included in the official Gentoo
> handbook[5][6].
>

++

Alternatives like btrfs/paludis/systemd often start off with separate
standalone documentation.  This is actually a pretty good way to do
things early-on but it is a bit like trying to follow the handbook
with a separate errata page on the side.

The goal should be to integrate alternatives into the main handbook
when reasonable, unless it really is something that can just stand
alone.  If it is just an extra step run at a certain point and it is
lengthy it might make sense to just have a link to a separate guide.
However, if the instructions require performing steps at multiple
points along the way it is better to present them as they happen.

Along similar lines I plan to spend a bit of time integrating the
systemd and dracut instructions into the handbook.  It isn't all that
intrusive at this point and just requires one or two steps along the
way, and a find/replace for rc-update.

The only thing that concerns me is keeping it reasonably simple to
follow and not turning it into a "Choose Your Own Adventure" novel.
That might involve splitting up the handbook a bit.  Right now it
includes not only installation, but also info on administration, and
the further you go past installation the more things will tend to
diverge.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Ben de Groot]

On 16 August 2015 at 01:24, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> My aim would be that all our main support channels like #gentoo, the
> user mailing lists, the forums and so on treat user discussions
> regarding alternative package managers in (almost) the same way as Portage.

Since most Gentoo users (and I include the developers here) have
little to no experience with those alternatives, they can't be
expected to answer specific support questions about them. Of course we
can always refer to our wiki, and apply general principles (PMS in the
case of package manager functioning).

> That also means that we would have to integrate these alternatives in
> our documentation, hopefully the official one. Because I think our
> official documentation should discuss package managers in the same way
> it discusses file systems. So, it is fine to recommend e.g. Portage and
> ext4 as the main examples, but we should also mention zfs, btrfs,
> Paludis, Pkgcore (when it catches up) and so on.
> In the case of Paludis, the upstream documentation[4] is quite technical
> and doesn't give a concise enough introduction for Gentoo beginners, who
> want to follow a step-by-step guide. Because of that, I have written up
> such a guide and proposed it to be included in the official Gentoo
> handbook[5][6].

The wiki is now our official documentation, and there is plenty of
space for any guides you wish to add.

But I would like to keep the Handbook as such simple. It is
overwhelming enough as it is, for newcomers, so let's not overload it
with explanations of alternatives. I think we should just offer one
default path, and point to alternatives that are documented in other
parts of the wiki. (This should also be done, for example, with the
part about LILO.)

-- 
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[hasufell]

On 08/17/2015 09:26 AM, Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 16 August 2015 at 01:24, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> My aim would be that all our main support channels like #gentoo, the
>> user mailing lists, the forums and so on treat user discussions
>> regarding alternative package managers in (almost) the same way as Portage.
> 
> Since most Gentoo users (and I include the developers here) have
> little to no experience with those alternatives, they can't be
> expected to answer specific support questions about them. Of course we
> can always refer to our wiki, and apply general principles (PMS in the
> case of package manager functioning).
> 
>> That also means that we would have to integrate these alternatives in
>> our documentation, hopefully the official one. Because I think our
>> official documentation should discuss package managers in the same way
>> it discusses file systems. So, it is fine to recommend e.g. Portage and
>> ext4 as the main examples, but we should also mention zfs, btrfs,
>> Paludis, Pkgcore (when it catches up) and so on.
>> In the case of Paludis, the upstream documentation[4] is quite technical
>> and doesn't give a concise enough introduction for Gentoo beginners, who
>> want to follow a step-by-step guide. Because of that, I have written up
>> such a guide and proposed it to be included in the official Gentoo
>> handbook[5][6].
> 
> The wiki is now our official documentation, and there is plenty of
> space for any guides you wish to add.
> 
> But I would like to keep the Handbook as such simple. It is
> overwhelming enough as it is, for newcomers, so let's not overload it
> with explanations of alternatives. I think we should just offer one
> default path, and point to alternatives that are documented in other
> parts of the wiki. (This should also be done, for example, with the
> part about LILO.)
> 

I know several users and Gentoo developers who have experience with
those alternatives. I'm not sure any of us has numbers, though.

The problem is not only the lack of documentation, but also that those
users sometimes get shut down in official support channels when they
want to help other users who are asking about these alternatives. That
is something we need to improve if we don't want to lose our face as a
meta-distribution (which we fought for with openrc/systemd and so on).

The best way to improve this is to make it part of the handbook, for
various reasons. The handbook is already part of the wiki. I think it is
the right place to introduce users to sensible (not random) choices.
That is what the handbook already does, starting at network setup, over
to disk partitioning and kernel configuration. All these choices are
important and vital parts of your system you want to configure. In the
case of a PM, you will want it configured and set up as early as
possible in your installation procedure.

These choices are not cluttering the handbook, but are clearly
distinguished with prefixes like "Optional: " or "Alternative: ", so the
user knows he can skip that if he wants. The point I can see is that we
could improve usability on the wiki side, by having alternative sections
hidden by default for example.

I don't think users will like to go through a default installation and
realize later on they have to revert/migrate half of it (which can take
a long time for PM configuration), because they wanted different system
tools, which were not part of the handbook.

Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Dale]

hasufell wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I would like to improve support for alternative package managers in
> Gentoo in any way possible and make a few points about why I think this
> is important and useful. As the most important example right now, I will
> talk about Paludis.
>
> Paludis is a multi-format package manager[0] supporting Gentoo and has
> been around since 2006. Since then, it has been used by Gentoo users and
> developers.
>
> Paludis supports all EAPIs and implements PMS[1] consistently. It has
> been deemed stable on amd64 and x86 last year[2] and generally supports
> the following architectures: alpha, amd64, arm, ia64, mips, ppc, ppc64,
> s390, sparc, x86.[3]
>
> It is also well known for its rich configuration system and the
> strictness properties of the dependency resolver which is what most
> people value it for.
>
> Currently, there are not many support channels for people who combine
> Gentoo with Paludis (only for both separately). Our main Gentoo support
> channels are also a bit wary towards Paludis and I am hoping to not only
> show that it is a very useful package manager, but that it also benefits
> Gentoo as a meta-distribution to be open towards such innovative approaches.
>
> My aim would be that all our main support channels like #gentoo, the
> user mailing lists, the forums and so on treat user discussions
> regarding alternative package managers in (almost) the same way as Portage.
>
> That also means that we would have to integrate these alternatives in
> our documentation, hopefully the official one. Because I think our
> official documentation should discuss package managers in the same way
> it discusses file systems. So, it is fine to recommend e.g. Portage and
> ext4 as the main examples, but we should also mention zfs, btrfs,
> Paludis, Pkgcore (when it catches up) and so on.
> In the case of Paludis, the upstream documentation[4] is quite technical
> and doesn't give a concise enough introduction for Gentoo beginners, who
> want to follow a step-by-step guide. Because of that, I have written up
> such a guide and proposed it to be included in the official Gentoo
> handbook[5][6].
>
> This could be the start of improving a number of things:
> * introduce Gentoo beginners to useful PM alternatives
> * improve support for these in all our main support channels
> * users don't have to search hours for e.g. Paludis related guides,
> which are scattered across ancient wikis and forum posts, any more
> * raise awareness that Gentoo is different (and has a PMS for a reason)
> * encourage other PMs (like Pkgcore[7]) by promising to treat them as
> first-class citizens in Gentoo if they are able to support the full PMS
> * make clear that we care about technology, no matter where it comes from
>
> What do you guys think about this? Do you see any other things that need
> to be tackled in order to get there? Maybe create a project for this?
>
> I think we need to start somewhere and maybe the official documentation
> is that place, because it is more than just a technical statement. And I
> think we need such a statement.
>
>
> [0] http://paludis.exherbo.org/index.html
> [1] https://dev.gentoo.org/~ulm/pms/head/pms.html
> [2] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=520874
> [3] https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-apps/paludis/paludis-2.4.0.ebuild#n20
> [4] http://paludis.exherbo.org/configuration/index.html
> [5] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=557324
> [6] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Hasufell/Test#Alternative:_Configuring_Paludis
> [7] https://github.com/pkgcore/pkgcore
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Julian Ospald
>
>

After reading some replies in this thread, I thought I would share a
little info about -user mailing list.  I'm a long term subscriber there
and read most threads. 

If someone asks a question about something Gentoo related, members do
try to help.  Example.  If someone asks about RIAD, I don't reply
because I don't use it and have no experience with it.  However, others
that do will reply and try to help.  Same with systemd and other
topics.  If it is a topic that very few or no one uses, then they may
not get help or very little of it. 

Basically, the only way I see that a person won't get help is if no one
uses or has knowledge on that topic.  I have a couple times asked
questions about Ubuntu and got replies.  There are a few people that use
or have recently used Ubuntu and can answer some questions or they may
be distro indifferent.  Asking on the -user mailing list is better than
subscribing to Ubuntu, asking and then unsubscribing or joining their
forums. 

Hope that helps shed a little light that we do try to help if, IF, we can. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[hasufell]

On 08/17/2015 07:33 PM, Dale wrote:
> 
> After reading some replies in this thread, I thought I would share a
> little info about -user mailing list.  I'm a long term subscriber there
> and read most threads. 
> 
> If someone asks a question about something Gentoo related, members do
> try to help.  Example.  If someone asks about RIAD, I don't reply
> because I don't use it and have no experience with it.  However, others
> that do will reply and try to help.  Same with systemd and other
> topics.  If it is a topic that very few or no one uses, then they may
> not get help or very little of it. 
> 
> Basically, the only way I see that a person won't get help is if no one
> uses or has knowledge on that topic.  I have a couple times asked
> questions about Ubuntu and got replies.  There are a few people that use
> or have recently used Ubuntu and can answer some questions or they may
> be distro indifferent.  Asking on the -user mailing list is better than
> subscribing to Ubuntu, asking and then unsubscribing or joining their
> forums. 
> 
> Hope that helps shed a little light that we do try to help if, IF, we can. 
> 

You are totally right. I didn't mean to discredit our support channels
which do a fantastic job. I was just noticing that there are still a few
things we can and should improve. Adding such sensible choices to the
official documentation (in what way exactly are details) is not only a
documentation improvement, but also a clear statement from our side and
encourages the community even further to support and openly discuss
these things everywhere (as long as they are Gentoo related).

The improvement of the documentation will also raise awareness about
these choices and encourage users to use them. That again may improve
our support situation, because more users will have knowledge about
these things.

Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 3:26 AM, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> But I would like to keep the Handbook as such simple. It is
> overwhelming enough as it is, for newcomers, so let's not overload it
> with explanations of alternatives. I think we should just offer one
> default path, and point to alternatives that are documented in other
> parts of the wiki. (This should also be done, for example, with the
> part about LILO.)
>

I think that there are parts that could be broken up or organized a
bit more cleanly, but I like having the options right in the flow of
the document.  If you're not going to deviate from the defaults then
there isn't a lot of point in running Gentoo in the first place.
Also, if we're only going to present one option at each step, I can
forsee a LOT of griping on this list about whatever that ONE option
ends up being.  Some of those choices cause 100-email threads fairly
regularly even when they're just one option of many.

However, breaking things up a bit differently would probably help.
Anytime there is a choice to be made it wouldn't hurt to have an
introductory section that summarizes the choices and perhaps some
neutral pros/cons.  Then have links to skip to the next step for each
of those choices.  Then the next common step should start on a new
page, so that users aren't hunting all over the place for what comes
next or missing steps.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Ben de Groot]

On 18 August 2015 at 09:18, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 3:26 AM, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>> But I would like to keep the Handbook as such simple. It is
>> overwhelming enough as it is, for newcomers, so let's not overload it
>> with explanations of alternatives. I think we should just offer one
>> default path, and point to alternatives that are documented in other
>> parts of the wiki. (This should also be done, for example, with the
>> part about LILO.)
>>
>
> However, breaking things up a bit differently would probably help.
> Anytime there is a choice to be made it wouldn't hurt to have an
> introductory section that summarizes the choices and perhaps some
> neutral pros/cons.  Then have links to skip to the next step for each
> of those choices.  Then the next common step should start on a new
> page, so that users aren't hunting all over the place for what comes
> next or missing steps.

Yes, this is a sensible way to do it.

-- 
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Alexander Berntsen]

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What I'd like to see for the handbook is basically it being turned
into a choose-your-own-adventure book, with an index and a "view all
options"-type of presentation.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[hasufell]

On 08/18/2015 09:14 AM, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
> What I'd like to see for the handbook is basically it being turned
> into a choose-your-own-adventure book, with an index and a "view all
> options"-type of presentation.


Excellent idea! But I guess this will need a complete refactoring. I
think we should do this stepwise and keep this as a long-term plan.

Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Daniel Campbell (zlg)]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 08/18/2015 12:14 AM, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
> What I'd like to see for the handbook is basically it being turned 
> into a choose-your-own-adventure book, with an index and a "view
> all options"-type of presentation.
> 

That's a great idea. Each page would be a part of the "workflow", with
options at the bottom for the next step. For example, we'd have step
one with setting up the stage3, and next would be a choice between
Linux, HURD, and BSD kernels or something, which would lead to their
respective setup pages, then lead back to choosing your bootloader
before a reboot.

On that note, we could probably get that started pretty easily just by
making a quick list of steps and the possible options, then edit the
wiki page by page to make it happen. It wouldn't have to be all at once.
- -- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6
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Re: [gentoo-project] improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Dale]

hasufell wrote:
> On 08/17/2015 07:33 PM, Dale wrote:
>> After reading some replies in this thread, I thought I would share a
>> little info about -user mailing list.  I'm a long term subscriber there
>> and read most threads. 
>>
>> If someone asks a question about something Gentoo related, members do
>> try to help.  Example.  If someone asks about RIAD, I don't reply
>> because I don't use it and have no experience with it.  However, others
>> that do will reply and try to help.  Same with systemd and other
>> topics.  If it is a topic that very few or no one uses, then they may
>> not get help or very little of it. 
>>
>> Basically, the only way I see that a person won't get help is if no one
>> uses or has knowledge on that topic.  I have a couple times asked
>> questions about Ubuntu and got replies.  There are a few people that use
>> or have recently used Ubuntu and can answer some questions or they may
>> be distro indifferent.  Asking on the -user mailing list is better than
>> subscribing to Ubuntu, asking and then unsubscribing or joining their
>> forums. 
>>
>> Hope that helps shed a little light that we do try to help if, IF, we can. 
>>
> You are totally right. I didn't mean to discredit our support channels
> which do a fantastic job. I was just noticing that there are still a few
> things we can and should improve. Adding such sensible choices to the
> official documentation (in what way exactly are details) is not only a
> documentation improvement, but also a clear statement from our side and
> encourages the community even further to support and openly discuss
> these things everywhere (as long as they are Gentoo related).
>
> The improvement of the documentation will also raise awareness about
> these choices and encourage users to use them. That again may improve
> our support situation, because more users will have knowledge about
> these things.
>
>


It's one of those things that can be read two different ways.  I got
your real meaning but just in case, wanted to be sure. 

There is almost always room for improvement.  It's been a while since I
did a fresh install but I still remember one thing when I did my first
install back in 2003, the Gentoo docs are some of the best I had ever
seen.  I don't think I have seen anyone else come even close.  The docs
may have had issues at times but once they needed some TLC, someone
stepped up and got them up to date.  This seems to happen every few
years or so. 

The only thing I would add, put options in the right places for people
who want to use RAID, LVM, BTRFS and other things but try to keep the
basics as they are.  Most people installing Gentoo for the first time,
should do a fairly basic install anyway.  If they are a seasoned Linux
user, then they can follow links to the optional things like RAID and
adjust as needed. 

I guess my point on the docs is this.  Try to keep them simple but make
options available without cluttering up what we have for a basic install. 

Hope that makes sense. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-project] Re: improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Martin Vaeth]

Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> What I'd like to see for the handbook is basically it being turned
> into a choose-your-own-adventure book, with an index and a "view all
> options"-type of presentation.

This has two major obstacles:

1. Users should be able to get a complete copy (also a printed copy)
with *full* installation instructions for some setup.
In fact, users might not have (easy) access to the internet before
the installation process is completed.

2. If you have many alternatives, all of these alternatives
must be maintained very regularly. Currently, the handbook
has already troubles in keeping up-to-date with *one* option.

While for 1, one might perhaps develop a technical solution,
I consider 2 is an obstacle which cannot be overcome.

It is probably much better, to keep it as it is:
One simple case described and regularly updated,
and refer to alternatives and very special situations
to the Wiki or other appropriate documentation.

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Alexander Berntsen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 19/08/15 14:46, Martin Vaeth wrote:
> 1. Users should be able to get a complete copy
Hence the "view all options" presentation type.

> 2. If you have many alternatives, all of these alternatives must
> be maintained
Sure.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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[gentoo-project] Re: improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Martin Vaeth]

Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 19/08/15 14:46, Martin Vaeth wrote:
>> 1. Users should be able to get a complete copy
> Hence the "view all options" presentation type.

If you want to print a copy for installation, you probably
do not want to print dozens of alternatives you do not plan
to use at all.

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Michał Górny]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 987 bytes --]

Dnia 2015-08-19, o godz. 12:46:26
Martin Vaeth <martin@mvath.de> napisał(a):

> Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >
> > What I'd like to see for the handbook is basically it being turned
> > into a choose-your-own-adventure book, with an index and a "view all
> > options"-type of presentation.
> 
> This has two major obstacles:
> 
> 1. Users should be able to get a complete copy (also a printed copy)
> with *full* installation instructions for some setup.
> In fact, users might not have (easy) access to the internet before
> the installation process is completed.
> 
> 2. If you have many alternatives, all of these alternatives
> must be maintained very regularly. Currently, the handbook
> has already troubles in keeping up-to-date with *one* option.

So, say, should we switch the handbook to systemd if systemd people are
going to have less trouble updating it? :P

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny
<http://dev.gentoo.org/~mgorny/>

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Alexander Berntsen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 20/08/15 15:05, Martin Vaeth wrote:
> If you want to print a copy for installation, you probably do not 
> want to print dozens of alternatives you do not plan to use at 
> all.
I would suggest not doing that.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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[gentoo-project] Re: improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Martin Vaeth]

Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 20/08/15 15:05, Martin Vaeth wrote:
>> If you want to print a copy for installation, you probably do not
>> want to print dozens of alternatives you do not plan to use at
>> all.
> I would suggest not doing that.

But this is what many people do and have done with the handbook.
Remember also that until the end of installation you might have
no internet access.

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[hasufell]

On 08/20/2015 10:55 PM, Martin Vaeth wrote:
> Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On 20/08/15 15:05, Martin Vaeth wrote:
>>> If you want to print a copy for installation, you probably do not
>>> want to print dozens of alternatives you do not plan to use at
>>> all.
>> I would suggest not doing that.
> 
> But this is what many people do and have done with the handbook.
> Remember also that until the end of installation you might have
> no internet access.
> 
> 

I suggest you start a new thread about this topic. It is highly
interesting, but slightly offtopic.

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Alexander Berntsen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 20/08/15 22:55, Martin Vaeth wrote:
> But this is what many people do and have done with the handbook. 
> Remember also that until the end of installation you might have no
> internet access.
Why would they print a bunch of stuff they don't need? Tell them to
cease this foolishness.

Also, this is 2015. I don't think we have the infamous manpower to
cater to the 1‰ of Gentoo users who don't have a phone or other form
of second computer, or lack the skills to print out only what they
need, or whatever.

Not that it would be a discouraging amount of work to have a minimal
install docs available as well -- though the usefulness of such docs
is arguable.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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[gentoo-project] Re: improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Martin Vaeth]

Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Martin Vaeth <martin@mvath.de> napisa=C5=82(a):
>
>> Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > What I'd like to see for the handbook is basically it being turned
>> > into a choose-your-own-adventure book, with an index and a "view all
>> > options"-type of presentation.
>>
>> This has two major obstacles:
>>
>> 1. Users should be able to get a complete copy (also a printed copy)
>> with *full* installation instructions for some setup.
>> In fact, users might not have (easy) access to the internet before
>> the installation process is completed.
>>
>> 2. If you have many alternatives, all of these alternatives
>> must be maintained very regularly. Currently, the handbook
>> has already troubles in keeping up-to-date with *one* option.
>
> So, say, should we switch the handbook to systemd if systemd people are
> going to have less trouble updating it? :P

I cannot see any relation between your remark and what I wrote.
Essentially, I think it is best to leave the handbook as it is now:
Have *one* reasonable alternative carried out and refer to others
to Wiki or some other source.
Of course, eventually some outdated alternative might be replaced
by something else, but which variant to use of what is a completely
independent discussion: It should essentially be made by the
authors of the handbook since they have to maintain it.
I do not suppose that openrc is going from the handbook soon
(and I would not suggest such a change): It already *is*
described well in the handbook and certainly simpler to maintain
than a systemd description which would change all of the time
and would need a huge troubleshooting section.
(BTW, isn't the handbook essentially the only existing openrc
documentation anyway?)

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Alexander Berntsen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 20/08/15 22:56, hasufell wrote:
> I suggest you start a new thread about this topic. It is highly 
> interesting, but slightly offtopic.
I agree. Didn't see this email prior to sending my previous one. Sorry!
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: improving alternative PM support in gentoo

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 5:06 PM, Martin Vaeth <martin@mvath.de> wrote:
> Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>> So, say, should we switch the handbook to systemd if systemd people are
>> going to have less trouble updating it? :P
>
> I cannot see any relation between your remark and what I wrote.
> Essentially, I think it is best to leave the handbook as it is now:
> Have *one* reasonable alternative carried out and refer to others
> to Wiki or some other source.

The handbook already details multiple alternatives.  So, you aren't
arguing to preserve the status quo, but rather to remove options.

> I do not suppose that openrc is going from the handbook soon
> (and I would not suggest such a change)

And that was Michał's point which he didn't come outright and say.
You seem happy to have only one alternative in the handbook, because
you're just assuming it is the alternative you happen to prefer.  As I
posted elsewhere a few days ago (perhaps in this thread) the problem
with picking just one option is that we all get to fight WW3 over
which option it ends up being.  I don't see any value in that.  If we
really duked it out the one easy-to-install option in the handbook
might just turn out to be systemd, and I'm sure we'd hear no end of
complaining about it.  And I'd be among those complaining because
there is simply no reason to dictate that everybody install Gentoo the
same way since the flexibility is basically the whole point of what
we're doing.

-- 
Rich

[gentoo-project] Keep handbook short or increase dramatically (was: improving alternative PM support in gentoo)

[Martin Vaeth]

Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>> I cannot see any relation between your remark and what I wrote.
>> Essentially, I think it is best to leave the handbook as it is now:
>> Have *one* reasonable alternative carried out and refer to others
>> to Wiki or some other source.
>
> The handbook already details multiple alternatives.  So, you aren't
> arguing to preserve the status quo, but rather to remove options.

There are currently some alternatives, but most are either very short
and easy to maintain. Or - like e.g. the instruction to build
an initrd - they are simply *needed* for a basic system in some
(not extremely exotic) settings. Nothing comparable to give a
full openrc+systemd documentation.

> You seem happy to have only one alternative in the handbook, because
> you're just assuming it is the alternative you happen to prefer.

No. I don't care which alternative it is, as long as it does not
restrict the number of systems on which you can install it.
The user can always change to another alternative later on.
The handbook is in the first place an instruction how to get
*a* basic running system. Mentioning alternatives is fine, but
writing kB of details about them is IMHO the wrong place here.
You would loose the compactness of the handbook which was definitely
one of Gentoo's strengths.

> with picking just one option is that we all get to fight WW3 over
> which option it ends up being.  I don't see any value in that.

I do neither. As mentioned, I think the actual maintainers
of the handbook should decide by themselves. Those who do
the work should do the decision. It's simple as that.

For this reason, this is now my last post on the topic.
In the end, it is up to the authors of the handbook anyway,
whether and what they decide.