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* [gentoo-project] Fwd: -dev list moderation
       [not found] <CAAr7Pr8XFRdYTQVPdEVpwSF-xU0B9nc_BD9Xfe23aOz=RzbqEg@mail.gmail.com>
@ 2018-04-09  2:05 ` Alec Warner
  2018-04-22 22:00   ` Christopher Díaz Riveros
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Alec Warner @ 2018-04-09  2:05 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project

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Hi I'm Alec from Infra, and I've been working on the moderation we
discussed in today's council meeting.

What I have done is basically:

Create a git repo to hold the whitelist.
Created some integration where we can insert the whitelist into the ML
software.
Created some wiki documentation.
Tested most of this on a test list.

In doing the testing, I determined it is possible to send a deny message
for non-whitelisted posters for the gentoo-dev list. I'm looking for some
content for that message.

In particular it seems like there is a process where people may try to
post, get denied, and then are left at a loss for what to do next.
I feel like in #gentoo-dev its somewhat more approachable (you just ping a
random person and get them to voice you.) But its not like there is a list
of devs on the mailing list. Should we be directing these contributors
someplace, like the wiki https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Contributing_to_Gentoo
or perhaps the proxy-maint project?

-A

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Fwd: -dev list moderation
  2018-04-09  2:05 ` [gentoo-project] Fwd: -dev list moderation Alec Warner
@ 2018-04-22 22:00   ` Christopher Díaz Riveros
  2018-04-22 22:12     ` M. J. Everitt
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Díaz Riveros @ 2018-04-22 22:00 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project

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El dom, 08-04-2018 a las 22:05 -0400, Alec Warner escribió:
> Hi I'm Alec from Infra, and I've been working on the moderation we discussed
> in today's council meeting.
> 
> What I have done is basically:
> 
> Create a git repo to hold the whitelist.
> Created some integration where we can insert the whitelist into the ML
> software.
> Created some wiki documentation.
> Tested most of this on a test list.
> 
> In doing the testing, I determined it is possible to send a deny message for
> non-whitelisted posters for the gentoo-dev list. I'm looking for some content
> for that message.
> 

Ideally, it would be something like:

"Thank you for contributing to Gentoo Linux! While we encourage communication
between users and developers, the mailing list that you are trying to post is
currently in moderation. Please take a look at all the mailing list and its
topics [1], if you still consider that your mail is appropriate for this
specific mailing list, please contact Project XYZ [2]. 

If you are still in doubt about the relevance of your email, please contact us
on IRC, read our support site [3], and our contact site too [4].

Thank you for helping Gentoo Linux!

[1]:https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/mailing-lists/all-lists.html
[2]:link project XYZ
[3]:https://www.gentoo.org/support/
[4]:https://www.gentoo.org/inside-gentoo/contact/

> In particular it seems like there is a process where people may try to post,
> get denied, and then are left at a loss for what to do next.
> I feel like in #gentoo-dev its somewhat more approachable (you just ping a
> random person and get them to voice you.) But its not like there is a list of
> devs on the mailing list. Should we be directing these contributors someplace,
> like the wiki https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Contributing_to_Gentoo or perhaps
> the proxy-maint project?
> 

Currently, we lack a project that is capable of direct users in a manner where
they reach the community and felt listened (or at least that wasn't obvious to
me while looking for one in the projects list). While Public Relations project's
mission is to improve visibility to the rest of the world, maybe we need a User
Relations project, where we help users in a more "personal" way than the
"support" or "contact" sections. It may help us to get some feedback from users
too. This is not a new topic, I saw a bunch of emails describing the need for a
place where users could go in the past weeks, and this moderation task may fit
in this new project.

Or maybe there is a better approach? I haven't found an exact project that could
handle this situation, but if it exists I'd appreciate the reference to know it
too.

Regards,
-- 
Christopher Díaz Riveros
Gentoo Linux Developer
GPG Fingerprint: E517 5ECB 8152 98E4 FEBC  2BAA 4DBB D10F 0FDD 2547

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* Re: [gentoo-project] Fwd: -dev list moderation
  2018-04-22 22:00   ` Christopher Díaz Riveros
@ 2018-04-22 22:12     ` M. J. Everitt
  2018-04-22 22:31       ` Rich Freeman
  2018-04-23 19:58       ` Robin H. Johnson
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: M. J. Everitt @ 2018-04-22 22:12 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project


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On 22/04/18 23:00, Christopher Díaz Riveros wrote:
> El dom, 08-04-2018 a las 22:05 -0400, Alec Warner escribió:
>> Hi I'm Alec from Infra, and I've been working on the moderation we discussed
>> in today's council meeting.
>>
>> What I have done is basically:
>>
>> Create a git repo to hold the whitelist.
>> Created some integration where we can insert the whitelist into the ML
>> software.
>> Created some wiki documentation.
>> Tested most of this on a test list.
>>
>> In doing the testing, I determined it is possible to send a deny message for
>> non-whitelisted posters for the gentoo-dev list. I'm looking for some content
>> for that message.
>>
> Ideally, it would be something like:
>
> "Thank you for contributing to Gentoo Linux! While we encourage communication
> between users and developers, the mailing list that you are trying to post is
> currently in moderation. Please take a look at all the mailing list and its
> topics [1], if you still consider that your mail is appropriate for this
> specific mailing list, please contact Project XYZ [2]. 
>
> If you are still in doubt about the relevance of your email, please contact us
> on IRC, read our support site [3], and our contact site too [4].
>
> Thank you for helping Gentoo Linux!
>
> [1]:https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/mailing-lists/all-lists.html
> [2]:link project XYZ
> [3]:https://www.gentoo.org/support/
> [4]:https://www.gentoo.org/inside-gentoo/contact/
>
>> In particular it seems like there is a process where people may try to post,
>> get denied, and then are left at a loss for what to do next.
>> I feel like in #gentoo-dev its somewhat more approachable (you just ping a
>> random person and get them to voice you.) But its not like there is a list of
>> devs on the mailing list. Should we be directing these contributors someplace,
>> like the wiki https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Contributing_to_Gentoo or perhaps
>> the proxy-maint project?
>>
> Currently, we lack a project that is capable of direct users in a manner where
> they reach the community and felt listened (or at least that wasn't obvious to
> me while looking for one in the projects list). While Public Relations project's
> mission is to improve visibility to the rest of the world, maybe we need a User
> Relations project, where we help users in a more "personal" way than the
> "support" or "contact" sections. It may help us to get some feedback from users
> too. This is not a new topic, I saw a bunch of emails describing the need for a
> place where users could go in the past weeks, and this moderation task may fit
> in this new project.
>
> Or maybe there is a better approach? I haven't found an exact project that could
> handle this situation, but if it exists I'd appreciate the reference to know it
> too.
>
> Regards,
Good cut at a response draft, Chris!

The only place I can think of at present to direct people is #gentoo IRC
.. not ideal, but probably the best we have presently. There isn't a
list-admin@g.o and I don't even know where that might end up, nor who
would deal with it even!

I think there is definitely scope for a "UserRel" type team - it would
fit in well with Daniel's concept of having a User Representative[-dev]
on council and/or Trustees to help shape the future direction(s) of the
distro. It would tie in with the PR team too, feeding back comments from
social media and forums, for example, as well as shaping news items and
publicity. Could be quite a fun team to be part of, potentially, for the
non-committing types...


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Fwd: -dev list moderation
  2018-04-22 22:12     ` M. J. Everitt
@ 2018-04-22 22:31       ` Rich Freeman
  2018-04-22 22:39         ` M. J. Everitt
  2018-04-22 22:47         ` Christopher Díaz Riveros
  2018-04-23 19:58       ` Robin H. Johnson
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2018-04-22 22:31 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 6:12 PM, M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org> wrote:
>
> I think there is definitely scope for a "UserRel" type team

There used to be one in the past - it was merged with DevRel into
ComRel.  ComRel deals with the social aspects of community members
working together/etc.

If this is more about getting contributions into the tree, it seems
like this is already more-or-less the mission of the proxy maintainers
project.  I'm not sure if we need a project just to point users to the
other projects.  We of course have IRC channels and the -user list as
well, and forums/etc.

Maybe those who want to work more with new users making contributions
should consider joining the proxy-maint team?  Obviously those with
commit access would be ideal, but non-committers could also help with
helping users get their contributions into good shape/etc and to
navigate the process?

-- 
Rich


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Fwd: -dev list moderation
  2018-04-22 22:31       ` Rich Freeman
@ 2018-04-22 22:39         ` M. J. Everitt
  2018-04-22 22:47         ` Christopher Díaz Riveros
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: M. J. Everitt @ 2018-04-22 22:39 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project


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On 22/04/18 23:31, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 6:12 PM, M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org> wrote:
>> I think there is definitely scope for a "UserRel" type team
> There used to be one in the past - it was merged with DevRel into
> ComRel.  ComRel deals with the social aspects of community members
> working together/etc.
I think we all (except ComRel and council) accept there are warts there ...
> If this is more about getting contributions into the tree, it seems
> like this is already more-or-less the mission of the proxy maintainers
> project.  I'm not sure if we need a project just to point users to the
> other projects.  We of course have IRC channels and the -user list as
> well, and forums/etc.
>
> Maybe those who want to work more with new users making contributions
> should consider joining the proxy-maint team?  Obviously those with
> commit access would be ideal, but non-committers could also help with
> helping users get their contributions into good shape/etc and to
> navigate the process?
>
From my observations, the proxy-maint team are doing a great job within
the limits of manpower they currently have available - probably the best
I've seen in the last two+ years since I've been shadowing Gentoo
development. Not that more, competent, help wouldn't, I'm sure, be
welcomed ...

"Committers" will probably not recognise the need for "non-dev devs" to
process some of the non-technical (*shock*) aspects of having a
distribution 'out there' instead of just in developer's caves... These
non-dev-devs might turn into good people to handle some of the
non-technical activities in the future, and hopefully start to patch up
some of the non-code-related issues in the Gentoo eco-system .. radical,
I know ...

Just my $2.50 ... :]


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Fwd: -dev list moderation
  2018-04-22 22:31       ` Rich Freeman
  2018-04-22 22:39         ` M. J. Everitt
@ 2018-04-22 22:47         ` Christopher Díaz Riveros
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Díaz Riveros @ 2018-04-22 22:47 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project

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El dom, 22-04-2018 a las 18:31 -0400, Rich Freeman escribió:
> On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 6:12 PM, M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org> wrote:
> > 
> > I think there is definitely scope for a "UserRel" type team
> 
> There used to be one in the past - it was merged with DevRel into
> ComRel.  ComRel deals with the social aspects of community members
> working together/etc.
> 
I was not aware of this aspect from ComRel, especially when in the wiki page
states: 

"handles many personnel-related tasks, solving conflicts and also ensuring that
the Gentoo Code of Conduct and proper and professional behavior is followed
across Gentoo's borders."

To my understanding, this is more like a "problem solving" project rather than a
"first contact" project.

> If this is more about getting contributions into the tree, it seems
> like this is already more-or-less the mission of the proxy maintainers
> project.  I'm not sure if we need a project just to point users to the
> other projects.  We of course have IRC channels and the -user list as
> well, and forums/etc.
> 

Agree on that, but what happens to people that do not know how exactly they want
to help? or don't want to specifically help with tree work? While our
documentation about contributing is good, it may be a bit overwhelming for
someone discovering Gentoo Linux. It may be good to have some supporting point
to all the documentation. 

Talking about IRC, it was my understanding (as veremitz pointed) #gentoo is a
user support channel for the installation process, and that makes looking for
info about projects, or other related stuff off-topic...

> Maybe those who want to work more with new users making contributions
> should consider joining the proxy-maint team?  Obviously those with
> commit access would be ideal, but non-committers could also help with
> helping users get their contributions into good shape/etc and to
> navigate the process?

Regards,
-- 
Christopher Díaz Riveros
Gentoo Linux Developer
GPG Fingerprint: E517 5ECB 8152 98E4 FEBC  2BAA 4DBB D10F 0FDD 2547

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Fwd: -dev list moderation
  2018-04-22 22:12     ` M. J. Everitt
  2018-04-22 22:31       ` Rich Freeman
@ 2018-04-23 19:58       ` Robin H. Johnson
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Robin H. Johnson @ 2018-04-23 19:58 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 11:12:29PM +0100, M. J. Everitt wrote:
> The only place I can think of at present to direct people is #gentoo IRC
> .. not ideal, but probably the best we have presently. There isn't a
> list-admin@g.o and I don't even know where that might end up, nor who
> would deal with it even!
There is a listadmin address.

listadmin@gentoo.org, listowner@gentoo.org,
${LISTNAME}+owner@lists.gentoo.org

All go to the same place, which is presently myself & a3li's mailboxes
as mailing list admins. This is specifically not a moderator role, but
rather a technical one. 

It mostly gets people who need help un-subscribing because their ISP
broke their address, or figuring out why they are missing some listmail.

There are the odd misdirected questions, but we usually ask them to
resend the question to a different person (or mailing list). Don't
blindly forward without consent (this should become more of a defacto
practice for privacy regulations that want to consider names & email
addresses as PII).

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2018-04-23 19:58 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
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     [not found] <CAAr7Pr8XFRdYTQVPdEVpwSF-xU0B9nc_BD9Xfe23aOz=RzbqEg@mail.gmail.com>
2018-04-09  2:05 ` [gentoo-project] Fwd: -dev list moderation Alec Warner
2018-04-22 22:00   ` Christopher Díaz Riveros
2018-04-22 22:12     ` M. J. Everitt
2018-04-22 22:31       ` Rich Freeman
2018-04-22 22:39         ` M. J. Everitt
2018-04-22 22:47         ` Christopher Díaz Riveros
2018-04-23 19:58       ` Robin H. Johnson

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