[gentoo-project] Another 2 bite the dust

[gentoo-project] Another 2 bite the dust

[Steve Long]

Alon Bar-Lev wrote:

> There are few brutal developers here that make Gentoo a terrible place
> to be. Well... I can handle few developers, but when devrel enters the
> picture with arguments such as "volunteers can do crappy job as long
> as they have fun" enough is enough.
>
Ouch.

> I signed-up to work on distribution if I have fun in the process it is
> great! But always keep in mind the delivery I provide to users.
>
Thanks for that, believe me we appreciate the few who speak out in favour of
that (except when it's a naked attempt at politicking ofc.)
 
> Gentoo has some fundamental issues, the obvious one is lack of
> leadership. There is *NOBODY* that formally responsible or cares about
> the delivery Gentoo (AS A WHOLE) provide to its users. The council is
> just a political body that discuss the void issues.
>
Well I'd hope the new Trustees would. They still need a month or two to
agree constitutional matters aiui. Not that that precludes them from acting
on any non-technical issues.
 
> As a result the laud and brutal developers dictate the tune. With no
> proper mechanism to decide if a decision that was taken aligns with
> Gentoo goals.
> 
> The devrel process is ridiculous, as proxy between developers without
> ability to determine anything does not help anyone.
>
Hmm have to admit I haven't had much fun with devrel (users are allowed to
complain via devrel, so long as they've gone thru userrel which believe me
is toothless based on my experience.) Seems like devrel has too much say
and userrel too little?
 
> During the short time I was around Gentoo lost some of the best
> developers that were around, due to similar reasons.
> 
> If Gentoo community cannot provide its own goals, at least it should
> embrace standards. Compliant to standards may resolve many conflicts.
> Roy worked hard to make Gentoo POSIX shell compliant, but this was not
> accepted, but imagine fully Gentoo work with busybox based system,
> isn't this an advantage we have? especially on small systems.
Sure it would be. But c'mon man you really don't need full toolchain build
capability on your *embedded* system. Anyone who tells you you do either
has an ulterior motive or is simply ignorant. And no, you don't need it on
your mobile phone either ;) Weigh that up against the inconvenience of only
writing in sh. (Yeah you can do it, but you're using the lowest common
denominator from about 20 years ago.) Now zsh and ksh builds, *that* would
be fun ;)

> I 
> appreciate flameeyes work on reducing the system size, I am aware how
> hard it is. There are new violations of HFS in Gentoo, but nobody
> cares.
>
Well FHS is good and all, but some of it's questionable (like sticking all
of /usr/etc in /etc instead of just allowing an admin to symlink if he's
that lazy.)

> Jacub, one of the best developers around that actually cared about the
> service we provide to our users was suspended while trying to do so,
> and now he is not active anymore.
>
Yeah they'll fsck up quick without him imo. They did when they suspended
him, and they weren't exactly gracious about asking him back, despite their
clear desperation. Seems like pride is the hardest thing to swallow ;)
 
> Gentoo is built on a lot of inexperienced students
++ NeddySeagoon talks about this a lot.

> Have fun,
> Alon.
Thanks for all the work you put in (same to r3pek.) I hope they're still
doing the "freeze your acct for 30 days just in case you come back" thing.

Regards,
steveL.


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Re: [gentoo-project] Another 2 bite the dust

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Wed, 14 May 2008 21:01:47 +0100
Steve Long <slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
> > Jacub, one of the best developers around that actually cared about
> > the service we provide to our users was suspended while trying to
> > do so, and now he is not active anymore.
> >
> Yeah they'll fsck up quick without him imo. They did when they
> suspended him, and they weren't exactly gracious about asking him
> back, despite their clear desperation. Seems like pride is the
> hardest thing to swallow ;) 

I was really trying to stay out of this, but your sycophantic toadying
is going a bit far... Gentoo did just fine before Jakub showed up, and
had far fewer invalidly closed bugs that would have been fixed if only
the maintainer had seen them. The only reason there's an issue now is
that Jakub managed to scare off everyone else who ever did wrangling,
turning it into a one man show.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-project] Another 2 bite the dust

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Steve Long
<slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>> Jacub, one of the best developers around that actually cared about the
>> service we provide to our users was suspended while trying to do so,
>> and now he is not active anymore.
>>
> Yeah they'll fsck up quick without him imo. They did when they suspended
> him, and they weren't exactly gracious about asking him back, despite their
> clear desperation. Seems like pride is the hardest thing to swallow ;)

Jakub was not suspended. Please stop the FUD, this is going too far.
He suddenly disappeared and we've actively been trying to get in touch
with him since then. Gentoo can easily live without him, but we're
worried now as he also does not appear in non-Gentoo irc channels he
used to be in.

You've just lost another opportunity to shut up and not look
ridiculous in public.

Denis.
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Re: [gentoo-project] Another 2 bite the dust

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 14 May 2008 22:01:47 Steve Long wrote:
> > Jacub, one of the best developers around that actually cared about the
> > service we provide to our users was suspended while trying to do so,
> > and now he is not active anymore.
>
> Yeah they'll fsck up quick without him imo. They did when they suspended
> him, and they weren't exactly gracious about asking him back, despite their
> clear desperation. Seems like pride is the hardest thing to swallow ;)

Desperation? Funny.. What I remember from the two weeks he was suspended over 
a year ago (April, 2007), is a few developers spending a lot of time flaming 
the developer relation's lead at the time for supposedly causing them more 
work through the suspension. His misbehaviour was clearly irrelevant...

Both then and now (where he's actually been missing longer than he was ever 
suspended) I'd say we're doing pretty fine in this regard except for a few 
developers who like to whine loudly at every opportunity, when they think a 
bug wrangler did anything wrong (and the bug in question was assigned to 
them). At the time of this writing there are only 12 bugs assigned to bug 
wranglers...

-- 
Bo Andresen
Gentoo KDE Dev

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[gentoo-project] Re: Another 2 bite the dust

[Steve Long]

Denis Dupeyron wrote:

> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Steve Long
>>> Jacub, one of the best developers around that actually cared about the
>>> service we provide to our users was suspended while trying to do so,
>>> and now he is not active anymore.
>>>
>> Yeah they'll fsck up quick without him imo. They did when they suspended
>> him, and they weren't exactly gracious about asking him back, despite
>> their clear desperation. Seems like pride is the hardest thing to swallow
>> ;)
> 
> Jakub was not suspended. Please stop the FUD, this is going too far.
> He suddenly disappeared and we've actively been trying to get in touch
> with him since then. 
Er this time yeah. Last time, when he was suspended the show collapsed a lot
quicker than this time. So yeah, it's better than it was, which simply
indicates he can now take a holiday.

> Gentoo can easily live without him, but we're 
> worried now as he also does not appear in non-Gentoo irc channels he
> used to be in.
>
> You've just lost another opportunity to shut up and not look
> ridiculous in public.
> 
Thanks for the professional approach you take to representing Gentoo, and
well done for forgetting that jakub was suspended previously, even though
the OP mentioned it. Bravo!


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[gentoo-project] Re: Another 2 bite the dust

[Steve Long]

Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:

> On Wednesday 14 May 2008 22:01:47 Steve Long wrote:
> Both then and now (where he's actually been missing longer than he was
> ever suspended) I'd say we're doing pretty fine in this regard except for
> a few developers who like to whine loudly at every opportunity, when they
> think a bug wrangler did anything wrong (and the bug in question was
> assigned to them). At the time of this writing there are only 12 bugs
> assigned to bug wranglers...
> 
You obviously don't follow that alias very much. Jakub used to keep it
running at 3 or 4 tops. All on his own, without the gang mentality.

Honestly man, wait til you leave Uni, do some *paid* work for about 5 years,
then talk like a developer. Til then you can't even walk. And yes, I've
taken you off /ignore so stop whining at me on IRC. It's embarrassing.


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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Another 2 bite the dust

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 14 May 2008 23:46:55 Steve Long wrote:
> You obviously don't follow that alias very much. Jakub used to keep it
> running at 3 or 4 tops. All on his own, without the gang mentality.

So now you're claiming we screwed up because there are 12 bugs rather than 
3-4? I see.. huge difference..

> Honestly man, wait til you leave Uni, do some *paid* work for about 5
> years, then talk like a developer. Til then you can't even walk. And yes,
> I've taken you off /ignore so stop whining at me on IRC. It's embarrassing.

Walk? How can you tell I'm whining if you have me on /ignore? I'd like to know 
what you're talking about specifically... You probably should rather reply to 
that in private though...

-- 
Bo Andresen
Gentoo KDE Dev

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Re: [gentoo-project] Another 2 bite the dust

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 21:01 +0100, Steve Long wrote:
> Alon Bar-Lev wrote:
> 
> > There are few brutal developers here that make Gentoo a terrible place
> > to be. 

IMHO the world is what you make it. While I am not saying we don't have
devs that make life harder for others. Which I myself at times might
fall into that category. At the end of the day, we only have control and
influence over ourselves. Of any conflict I have with anyone, I always
put at least 50% or more of the blame on me. Putting it solely on them
makes me powerless to correct things.

In this situation, I am not saying it's all others, or all Alon, but
more 50/50. From the other side, I personally and some others on the
Java team. Had some harsh interactions with Alon when he was a user.
Because of such I wasn't to happy about him becoming a dev.

Much less when as a user of seahorse, changes to the gnupg package
caused massive headaches for me. Which most any interaction with Alon
wasn't to friendly. Granted there was some past animosity there from
past interactions.

In the end allot of the gnupg "harshness" I am just as much to blame for
as Alon. But I can't say that Alon was the nicest person I met, and
agree 100% or at all with his comments. It very well others could have
been reacting in kind.

This also could have allot to do with cultural differences. Which even
though we all communicate in English. Most of us don't live in areas
where that's the native language ( obviously not speaking of myself ).
So at times, tension can surely be a result of translations. Words being
used, maybe not the best ones, or accurately expressing ones feelings.
Or politely even.

Anyway, I respect Alon's view and reasons for leaving Gentoo. I just
would hope there would have been a bit more self reflection. Which is
something I try to do allot. There have been several times I have been a
jerk, and lacked tact in my actions, comments, etc. But I do try to at
least acknowledge that, apologize, and if possible make up for any of my
actions.

I am not trying to dump all the blame on Alon, but since his email
seemed to exclude him from any. Plus others comments, which I was trying
to hold back myself. I felt I need to put out some additional info.

Always two sides to any story, and at times, more than that :)

It sad to see any developer go, even if it's one I haven't always had a
great working relationship with. Alon did contribute to Gentoo, and will
always be appreciated for that. Just would hope he or others, including
myself if/when the time comes, could have made a bit better exit from
grace :)

Off to write my multi-volume novel ;) j/k

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.
amd64/Java/Trustees
Gentoo Foundation


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