From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([69.77.167.62] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JHlSc-0006pg-BA for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:40:34 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B773E074B; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:38:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E92D6E074B for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:38:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75BDE65ACD for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:38:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at gentoo.org X-Spam-Score: 1.099 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.099 required=5.5 tests=[AWL=-1.099, BAYES_50=0.001, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, SARE_RMML_Stock10=0.13] Received: from smtp.gentoo.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.gentoo.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9qT+YaPFNP7J for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:38:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D362765A2F for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:38:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JHlQ6-0005T1-GN for gentoo-project@gentoo.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:37:58 +0000 Received: from 82.152.203.108 ([82.152.203.108]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:37:58 +0000 Received: from slong by 82.152.203.108 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:37:58 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org From: Steve Long Subject: [gentoo-project] Re: Re: Re: Re: Plan, then communicate (no-list) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:44:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20080120215706.GA16357@redwoodscientific.com> <200801212018.23425.philantrop@gentoo.org> <20080123161516.175428cbwumbygbo@www2.mailstation.de> <20080123181338.144832ujeyvdf2yo@www2.mailstation.de> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.152.203.108 User-Agent: KNode/0.10.4 Sender: news X-Archives-Salt: af09c293-0520-4d20-b376-f9b5af2f4db4 X-Archives-Hash: f02d4b7d453e851348a40ea694e762cf Wulf C. Krueger wrote: >>> I'd wait for the bugs to come. If there are problems, we have Bugzilla >>> to use for that. >> That's fine for technical problems: it's a lot harder to use that to deal >> with social problems. > > I've written it before (in the context of some discussions on the -dev > mailinglist): People need to grow a thicker skin. If people are scared > by "fighting" among the developer's I can't really help it. We have > quarrels just like anyone else. We will piss each other off sometimes > and either work it out or agree that we consider each other idiots. > That's fine, that's life. Agreed; I don't have an issue with disagreement: I have just seen too much *nastiness* (especially on the dev m-l.) And it really annoys me that it goes unremarked from devs, since they have signed up to _represent_ Gentoo. Go and have the flamewar off-list, or on IRC. If it's someone you can't speak with, deal with it professionally on-list by sticking to the topic at hand (as far as possible.) Yeah there'll be times where that doesn't work, but they should be exceptional, not commonplace. > Most users I've heard or seen so far aren't even really concerned with > social stuff but (semi-) technical things - no 2007.1 release > (technical issue), GWN (semi-technical; lack of manpower and user > contributions), quality of the tree (technical) and the Foundation > bullshit (non-technical and without any real relevance for our users). > > If those are addressed (and all of them are), most of the discontent > will either disappear or at least things will calm down again. > Yeah I don't think that addresses the issue of involvement though, and it is a central problem for devs as well as users, since you are overstretched. I've spoken to too many user who've complained, with good reason, to accept that technical problems, especially lack of manpower, don't sometimes have social causes. >> would take a very brave user indeed to file a {user,dev}rel bug. > > (That would be a UserRel bug.) Why? How many people have been eaten by > UserRel so far? ;-) > > Furthermore, seeing all those comments on Robbins' blog and from brief > looks at the Forums, I'd say we have (more than ;->) enough brave users. > Heh, maybe so; thing is if someone's nasty to you (wherever it is) and no-one else comments, you just assume that's the culture. If you then act similarly, you will be flamed. That just leads to confusion and ill-feeling, for zero benefit to anyone. And often that person will just walk away (no need to show them the door) and you've lost an advocate and gained a detractor. > Yes, it will need some maturity but, yes, I *do* expect that from > people who want to be taken seriously. > Sure, but devs have to show just as much, if not more, maturity; or we won't take your claims to be snowed-under seriously. "You haven't got enough people? Hmm I wonder why.." >> what I am getting at is that users need to be molly-coddled to a certain >> extent: > > We've had that. It was called User Representatives and it failed > because the representatives decided not to represent anyone by either > not showing up or simply doing next to nothing. I'm not into > baby-sitting; I've three kids of my own. :-) > Hehe I know what you mean (not as many kids though.) I actually feel that way about the devs (collectively.) I don't care how much you whinge about being over-worked, you're doing it out of your own self-interest; you can quit whenever you want, and some of you even think it acceptable to treat Gentoo as your own "private playground." If you want more help, ask *nicely* and *behave* nicely or no-one will want to play with you. > Nevertheless, whenever a user approaches me with a minimum (!) of > politeness by mail, in the Forums or on IRC, I treat him/her like > that, too. > >> they're in a position of less power and not so comfortable with the >> processes. > > Maybe but we need a certain degree of processes and people *will* have > to follow them just like I have to as well. > Sure; but if you look at users as potential future devs, it's worthwhile helping them when they are clearly out of their depth. A quiet bit of help at the beginning makes the world of difference, and brings you a "convert." There've been a few times in #friendly-coders when someone has asked a really stupid question, and I really haven't been in the mood to deal with them. The times when I've bit my tongue and just pointed them in the right direction, have pretty much always ended up positively. There's been the odd time that hasn't worked, but others have stepped in to explain (usually after I've hit !diy, !ego and !igli ;) and only once have we had to kb someone (after days of problems; he's come back a bit wiser, finally.) >>> No, really. I don't want anyone to leave but if someone really thinks >>> Gentoo is going down the drain (which it isn't), I can't do much about >>> it. >> Sure; but if they're going to leave that's up to them. Scaring em off >> (which is how "if you don't like it, there's the door" sounds) isn't in >> Gentoo's interest imo. > > Sometimes, that's the only reasonable answer, though. > Well it's the answer I'd personally give to the drobbins ultimatum, but I'd never say that to my users for any software I've ever written. I might say "I don't want/have the time to add that, feel free to patch it, and [maybe] I'll help you with it." If you don't see users as your client, you won't get anywhere with software development ime. You might get paid, but you won't be asked back; the best software is always the stuff that end-users (be that admins, end-users or other coders) feel ownership of, because it's been developed in response to their needs. No user buy-in, no use of your code, as many large organisations have found (usually just after they rolled out their new EIS that was a year late and /way/ over-budget, only for everyone to ignore it.) Yeah devs are users too; but imo please the users and the devs will be happy (if they're not they can change it) since they get more kudos as everyone wants to use it. Please the devs only, and all you get is technically nice software that no-one else knows how to use, and frankly you code yourself into irrelevance since everyone's using the other software that makes them *feel good* about wastin^W spending all their time on a computer. Devs are just as susceptible to the "ooh, shiny" bit as well; it's human nature. Many books have been written on HCI and they overlap with psychology (although the resultant doctoral students annoy the hell out of me, as they have nfc when it comes to implementation and they claim to know CS.) It's not something a coder typically worries about, but we like the same interfaces, especially for apps we don't know. To be an effective coder, imo, you have be able to think like a user (which is why it's fun: you see what happens in all the other industries close up at a data-level.) Spending your days sneering at users is not a good career move, and imo Gentoo should stamp on it-- hard. NB: None of this means entertaining unreasonable demands or tolerating discourteous behaviour. > "TF"? :-) > /me looks innocent: Thank Freitag! ;p -- gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mailing list