From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([69.77.167.62] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JHjME-0004cN-94 for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:25:50 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 21EA6E04E0; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:24:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBE0BE04E0 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:24:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 700D9657B6 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:24:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at gentoo.org X-Spam-Score: 1.03 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.03 required=5.5 tests=[AWL=-1.038, BAYES_50=0.001, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from smtp.gentoo.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.gentoo.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VCvioRAtycWC for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:23:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568C564A8F for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:23:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JHjKC-0006OQ-FR for gentoo-project@gentoo.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:23:44 +0000 Received: from 82.152.203.108 ([82.152.203.108]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:23:44 +0000 Received: from slong by 82.152.203.108 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:23:44 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org From: Steve Long Subject: [gentoo-project] Re: Re: Plan, then communicate (no-list) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:30:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1201037219l.2735l.1l@spike> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.152.203.108 User-Agent: KNode/0.10.4 Sender: news X-Archives-Salt: 2816d574-0a17-4126-8c6b-d3653902fd30 X-Archives-Hash: 901c4002b1e72bd9cf31ab5897cea740 Roy Bamford wrote: > On 2008.01.21 18:19, Steve Long wrote: >> And when 90% say they don't like the way they >> get treated by Gentoo devs, there is a real issue. Call it >> communicaton, call it what you want, it's a real and valid concern. >> >> And IMO it holds Gentoo back. >> > For the furtherance of this discussion and simplification of the > problem space, lets assume that we have already identified that Gentoo > is split into two mutually exclusive groups which I shall call "them" > and "us". I do not admit that it is really like this but it serves as a > reference frame for further discussion. > Fair enough, although I think it better to talk about devs and users, since there is a distinction (a dev has gone through the recruitment process) and there is overlap, and far more common ground than is realised when the groups are arguing. It's like the People's Front of Gentoo vs the Gentoo People's Army; we're losing sight of our commonality in factional fighting: http://jerryleecooper.com/ > How do you go about turning "them" and "us" into "we" ? > Discuss. > You just answered it imo: discussion, in a courteous framework. Having this list makes a big difference, since we now have a forum wherein to discuss non-technical issues without being flamed for being off-topic (if you're a user.) > One further constraint to the discussion, you must not use the word > "they", as in "they should ..." > We should appoint you, NeddySeagoon El Presidente! ;p You've got far more nous than most of us, and you have the maturity to see past your own ego. Although TBH I don't personally believe we need a President or any other changes beyond making sure the legal issues are appropriately handled and addressing user concerns (specifically how they feel alienated by devs, in contrast to other users). I'd like it if the culture changed so that user concerns were seen as the priority, but I ain't holding my breath.. ;) Presidents and premiers don't really work irl imo. Too much on one shoulders only leads to collapse (usually evinced by delusions of grandeur, or a conviction that complex problems can be solved with simple solutions) as well as encouraging formation of a clique around the victi^W candidate. People naturally form sub-groupings; if we ensure no one group can override everyone else, that'll be good. A single leader works against that imo since s/he will only ever be able to have effective communication with (or trust in) a limited subset. Bingo, there's your clique, and everyone else will feel excluded, or judged on how close they are to the "centre". > The idea is not to point fingers but plan how to move from the > situation described above to a different (better?) situation. > Agreed: whatever group you talk about there are always people one doesn't like. Recriminations back and forth aren't going to help. > (No points for spotting the 6sigma game) > Well I hope I don't lose any for having nfc what that meant? ;) -- gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mailing list