[gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News

[gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News

[Matthew Marchese]

Hi all,

Huzza! Welcome to 2017! This year I would like re-ignite the Gentoo news
project. It has been smoldering for some time and I think with a small
bit of interaction from YOU (the developers, the  council members, and,
yes, even YOU foundation members), it would be easily rekindled.

To be clear, I have no absolutely no intention of writing a full
newsletter each month. Most people's attention spans are not long enough
to even read though a newsletter or make it this far into an email, so
I'm not looking to spend a lot of time doing that. I have something much
simpler in mind. Presently the GMN project has moved. It is now called
simply "News". We have a #gentoo-news channel on Freenode and a
news@gentoo.org mail alias.

Here is the YOU part: the only way this project will work is if YOU push
news announcements to ME. As you understand, Gentoo is a broad ecosystem
with LOTS going on _constantly_. I only use one desktop environment and
can't look at #gentoo-commits / gentoo.git log to track the changes of
major successes or new additions to the main repo.

You can use either the IRC channel or news@gentoo.org to push news items
of interest to me. I will handle weeding them out and getting them to
the developers and the community on the social sites. The IRC channel is
preferred because I am always connected, and messages are instant; but
again, as it should be in Gentoo, _your choice_.

Example news items could be:

* New release of Gnome (or any other supported DE).

* New, interesting packages added to the main repo.

* New projects - Tell me about the project goal and what you're working
on. I will also watch the gentoo-project list, but LOTS of times it's
easy to miss things.

* Project changes  - Want the community to test something? Want to warn
us about something? Want to remind us of something? Want to scold
inactive members of your project? You can now do that on social sites so
that the world can see! Hope you caught the sarcasm in that last sentence.

* Event annoucements - Tell me where you're meeting and what you'll
talking about. Give me the highlights of a past the event. Tell me why
attendees should go to your event. Share pictures from your event.
Gentoo is going to be present as FOSDEM 2017. What about Scale? I'd be
happy to push invitations to the social sites. Just tell me what to say.
For event invitations should also have an announcement on the front page
of the main site, IMO, but we can start with getting them to our social
sites.

* Anything that is exciting that has happened for Gentoo - This goes for
projects that completed a long or short term goal, Gentoo being
recognized for something important, or Gentoo is seen somewhere in the
news media. Good OR bad external news can be shared. You can even rip
something off the forums or Reddit and re-share it in #-news.

* Gentoo ported to run on a strange or unusual piece of hardware -
Recently I saw Gentoo being ported to the PS4. That was something that
should be shared with #-news.

Once it gets to me, the news will probably go out one news item at a
time, in one or maybe two sentences. This way we can be reporting news
as it develops, instead of releasing news in a monthly --oneshot like
the old project. As mentioned for event invitations above, larger or
more important news items can hopefully be shared on the main www page.

Also, the QA project seems to be good at generating all kinds of graphs
and charts, so I have no plans to use the old Python scripts for those
kinds of things. I do have some other ideas up my sleeve for this
project in the future.

The one thing to take away from this email: if you have some news item
that has some value to the community you should share it in #-news. It
would be great to release early and release often in terms of news. This
will not happen without YOUR help.

Anyone who wants to aid these efforts welcome to join the project.
Looking forward to hearing any thoughts from you on things that may need
to be flushed out a little.

Your docs doctor and news host,

Mr. Marchese

Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News

[Seemant Kulleen]

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Happy 2017 to you Mr. Marchese,

You've brought wonderful news!

If there's interest in data visualization (with d3.js), I'd love to chat
about how I might help.

Cheers,
Seemant



*--*
*Oakland Finish Up Weekend*
Be Amazed.  Be Amazing.
Get Mentored | Get Inspired | *Finish* *Up*
http://oaklandfinishup.com


On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 at 11:41 PM, Matthew Marchese <maffblaster@gentoo.org>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Huzza! Welcome to 2017! This year I would like re-ignite the Gentoo news
> project. It has been smoldering for some time and I think with a small
> bit of interaction from YOU (the developers, the  council members, and,
> yes, even YOU foundation members), it would be easily rekindled.
>
> To be clear, I have no absolutely no intention of writing a full
> newsletter each month. Most people's attention spans are not long enough
> to even read though a newsletter or make it this far into an email, so
> I'm not looking to spend a lot of time doing that. I have something much
> simpler in mind. Presently the GMN project has moved. It is now called
> simply "News". We have a #gentoo-news channel on Freenode and a
> news@gentoo.org mail alias.
>
> Here is the YOU part: the only way this project will work is if YOU push
> news announcements to ME. As you understand, Gentoo is a broad ecosystem
> with LOTS going on _constantly_. I only use one desktop environment and
> can't look at #gentoo-commits / gentoo.git log to track the changes of
> major successes or new additions to the main repo.
>
> You can use either the IRC channel or news@gentoo.org to push news items
> of interest to me. I will handle weeding them out and getting them to
> the developers and the community on the social sites. The IRC channel is
> preferred because I am always connected, and messages are instant; but
> again, as it should be in Gentoo, _your choice_.
>
> Example news items could be:
>
> * New release of Gnome (or any other supported DE).
>
> * New, interesting packages added to the main repo.
>
> * New projects - Tell me about the project goal and what you're working
> on. I will also watch the gentoo-project list, but LOTS of times it's
> easy to miss things.
>
> * Project changes  - Want the community to test something? Want to warn
> us about something? Want to remind us of something? Want to scold
> inactive members of your project? You can now do that on social sites so
> that the world can see! Hope you caught the sarcasm in that last sentence.
>
> * Event annoucements - Tell me where you're meeting and what you'll
> talking about. Give me the highlights of a past the event. Tell me why
> attendees should go to your event. Share pictures from your event.
> Gentoo is going to be present as FOSDEM 2017. What about Scale? I'd be
> happy to push invitations to the social sites. Just tell me what to say.
> For event invitations should also have an announcement on the front page
> of the main site, IMO, but we can start with getting them to our social
> sites.
>
> * Anything that is exciting that has happened for Gentoo - This goes for
> projects that completed a long or short term goal, Gentoo being
> recognized for something important, or Gentoo is seen somewhere in the
> news media. Good OR bad external news can be shared. You can even rip
> something off the forums or Reddit and re-share it in #-news.
>
> * Gentoo ported to run on a strange or unusual piece of hardware -
> Recently I saw Gentoo being ported to the PS4. That was something that
> should be shared with #-news.
>
> Once it gets to me, the news will probably go out one news item at a
> time, in one or maybe two sentences. This way we can be reporting news
> as it develops, instead of releasing news in a monthly --oneshot like
> the old project. As mentioned for event invitations above, larger or
> more important news items can hopefully be shared on the main www page.
>
> Also, the QA project seems to be good at generating all kinds of graphs
> and charts, so I have no plans to use the old Python scripts for those
> kinds of things. I do have some other ideas up my sleeve for this
> project in the future.
>
> The one thing to take away from this email: if you have some news item
> that has some value to the community you should share it in #-news. It
> would be great to release early and release often in terms of news. This
> will not happen without YOUR help.
>
> Anyone who wants to aid these efforts welcome to join the project.
> Looking forward to hearing any thoughts from you on things that may need
> to be flushed out a little.
>
> Your docs doctor and news host,
>
> Mr. Marchese
>
>
>
>
>

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[gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] Rekindling Gentoo News

[Michał Górny]

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On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 23:41:16 -0800
Matthew Marchese <maffblaster@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I'm not looking to spend a lot of time doing that. I have something much
> simpler in mind. Presently the GMN project has moved. It is now called
> simply "News". We have a #gentoo-news channel on Freenode and a
> news@gentoo.org mail alias.

To be honest, I think this name is a bit confusing. When I've seen
the topic of this e-mail, I thought it will be about news items (as
in those going through 'eselect news')... But if it's too late to
change, I guess we can get used to it.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny
<http://dev.gentoo.org/~mgorny/>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] Rekindling Gentoo News

[Matthew Marchese]

On 01/15/2017 01:36 AM, Michał Górny wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 23:41:16 -0800
> Matthew Marchese <maffblaster@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm not looking to spend a lot of time doing that. I have something much
>> simpler in mind. Presently the GMN project has moved. It is now called
>> simply "News". We have a #gentoo-news channel on Freenode and a
>> news@gentoo.org mail alias.
> To be honest, I think this name is a bit confusing. When I've seen
> the topic of this e-mail, I thought it will be about news items (as
> in those going through 'eselect news')... But if it's too late to
> change, I guess we can get used to it.
>
I was growing fond of the alias. It was actually already available from
the previous news project...

Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News

[Andreas K. Huettel]

Am Samstag, 14. Januar 2017, 23:41:16 CET schrieb Matthew Marchese:
> Hi all,
> 
> Huzza! Welcome to 2017! This year I would like re-ignite the Gentoo news
> project. It has been smoldering for some time and I think with a small
> bit of interaction from YOU (the developers, the  council members, and,
> yes, even YOU foundation members), it would be easily rekindled.
> 

Great, thanks a lot for picking this up!

And let's make sure whatever news we collect finds its way to all our social 
media channel!

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer (council, perl, libreoffice)

Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 15/01/17 07:41, Matthew Marchese wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Huzza! Welcome to 2017! This year I would like re-ignite the Gentoo news
> project. It has been smoldering for some time and I think with a small
> bit of interaction from YOU (the developers, the  council members, and,
> yes, even YOU foundation members), it would be easily rekindled.
>
> To be clear, I have no absolutely no intention of writing a full
> newsletter each month. Most people's attention spans are not long enough
> to even read though a newsletter or make it this far into an email, so
> I'm not looking to spend a lot of time doing that. I have something much
> simpler in mind. Presently the GMN project has moved. It is now called
> simply "News". We have a #gentoo-news channel on Freenode and a
> news@gentoo.org mail alias.
>
> Here is the YOU part: the only way this project will work is if YOU push
> news announcements to ME. As you understand, Gentoo is a broad ecosystem
> with LOTS going on _constantly_. I only use one desktop environment and
> can't look at #gentoo-commits / gentoo.git log to track the changes of
> major successes or new additions to the main repo.
>
> You can use either the IRC channel or news@gentoo.org to push news items
> of interest to me. I will handle weeding them out and getting them to
> the developers and the community on the social sites. The IRC channel is
> preferred because I am always connected, and messages are instant; but
> again, as it should be in Gentoo, _your choice_.
>
> Example news items could be:
>
> * New release of Gnome (or any other supported DE).
>
> * New, interesting packages added to the main repo.
>
> * New projects - Tell me about the project goal and what you're working
> on. I will also watch the gentoo-project list, but LOTS of times it's
> easy to miss things.
>
> * Project changes  - Want the community to test something? Want to warn
> us about something? Want to remind us of something? Want to scold
> inactive members of your project? You can now do that on social sites so
> that the world can see! Hope you caught the sarcasm in that last sentence.
>
> * Event annoucements - Tell me where you're meeting and what you'll
> talking about. Give me the highlights of a past the event. Tell me why
> attendees should go to your event. Share pictures from your event.
> Gentoo is going to be present as FOSDEM 2017. What about Scale? I'd be
> happy to push invitations to the social sites. Just tell me what to say.
> For event invitations should also have an announcement on the front page
> of the main site, IMO, but we can start with getting them to our social
> sites.
>
> * Anything that is exciting that has happened for Gentoo - This goes for
> projects that completed a long or short term goal, Gentoo being
> recognized for something important, or Gentoo is seen somewhere in the
> news media. Good OR bad external news can be shared. You can even rip
> something off the forums or Reddit and re-share it in #-news.
>
> * Gentoo ported to run on a strange or unusual piece of hardware -
> Recently I saw Gentoo being ported to the PS4. That was something that
> should be shared with #-news.
>
> Once it gets to me, the news will probably go out one news item at a
> time, in one or maybe two sentences. This way we can be reporting news
> as it develops, instead of releasing news in a monthly --oneshot like
> the old project. As mentioned for event invitations above, larger or
> more important news items can hopefully be shared on the main www page.
>
> Also, the QA project seems to be good at generating all kinds of graphs
> and charts, so I have no plans to use the old Python scripts for those
> kinds of things. I do have some other ideas up my sleeve for this
> project in the future.
>
> The one thing to take away from this email: if you have some news item
> that has some value to the community you should share it in #-news. It
> would be great to release early and release often in terms of news. This
> will not happen without YOUR help.
>
> Anyone who wants to aid these efforts welcome to join the project.
> Looking forward to hearing any thoughts from you on things that may need
> to be flushed out a little.
>
> Your docs doctor and news host,
>
> Mr. Marchese
>
>
>
>
Sounds great! I'm on board (have been lurking in -pr for some time now)
if there's anything I can do ...

MJE


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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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I was trying not to chime in, but I figured I will toss it out there. Its in -
nfp archives I think.

When I was a Trustee, I had ideas of Gentoo paying, very small amounts, for 
people to work on a monthly/weekly newsletter. This was something VERY 
beneficial to developers and the community. But the high quality that was 
produced in the past with the GWN, required considerable time. I felt it was 
allot for a volunteer, but since it served such benefit. Why not pay to help 
ensure it continues.

At the time it was misconstrued into wanting to pay myself. Despite one of my 
first acts in reviewing Draft By Laws publicly on -nfp list, was to remove any 
provisions that allowed Trustees to pay themselves. That seemed very wrong, 
Trustees decide if they can pay themselves.... I never had plans to pay 
myself. Sadly some who harrassed me on such topic where exactly the ones I 
wanted to see getting paid... Who later in devrel took part on banning me etc. 
Amazing how trying to help others went so south.... :(

I think the concept is still sound. Linode used to offer a $100 for 
documentation. That was so well received, they had to stop the program due to 
the backlog. I would not suggest it for documentation etc. But a newsletter, 
why not.

If people are spending hours putting together a weekly or monthly news letter 
simply to inform others. Why not pay them a little  for their time? It will 
hopefully ensure people are always there to do that. Could help out students 
and others.

The Developer Spotlight was good to help introduce people in the project to 
each other. You may never work with someone but when they are in the spotlight 
you gain a bit of insight you may never have had otherwise. Helps everyone get 
to know each other. Not just the technical things going on in the project.

That is up to the community and Trustees.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[Kent Fredric]

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On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 16:35:39 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> I think the concept is still sound. Linode used to offer a $100 for 
> documentation. That was so well received, they had to stop the program due to 
> the backlog. I would not suggest it for documentation etc. But a newsletter, 
> why not.

I think it would be nice if there was an alternative way to earn newsletter access
via contribution. Because it does seem strange to me to have to pay for a newsletter
that describes what you're doing yourself in part.

But implementing proof-of-work schemes here is hard and prone to gamification
downsides, so I just concede its probably not easy, and leave this question open
to somebody else who thinks they know of a useful way.

> If people are spending hours putting together a weekly or monthly news letter 
> simply to inform others. Why not pay them a little  for their time? It will 
> hopefully ensure people are always there to do that. Could help out students 
> and others.

It may be worth considering getting volume licensing, ie: advertise to
companies to either buy a block of subscriptions themselves which they can grant
access to X number of people.

Or alternatively, instead of relying on a user-pays model in entity, have a
corporate sponsorship scheme where we give out the newsletter for free, but a company
foots a bill in exchange for some thanks/promotional/unobtrusive advertising.

This would of course have strict requirements as which sorts of companies could
do this, like they'd have to be using Gentoo in some capacity.

And that sponsorship model is well used by quite a few OpenSource things, because it
looks good for the company to be visibly supporting OpenSource.

But like, somebody will probably say they hate this idea because its relying on non-free
platforms in some capacity for money or something. *shrug*

> 
> The Developer Spotlight was good to help introduce people in the project to 
> each other. You may never work with someone but when they are in the spotlight 
> you gain a bit of insight you may never have had otherwise. Helps everyone get 
> to know each other. Not just the technical things going on in the project.

Side note: I hear LWN are looking for writers https://lwn.net/op/AuthorGuide.lwn 

So there's opportunity here for whoever does our newsletter may find themselves able
to help them out as well, and possibly save some effort in writing for both.

Or that could be deemed as a conflict of interest, idk.

But I know LWN quote stuff said here all the time, so one of their editors is
already a fan in some regards.

Maybe we can convince them to come to the dark side? :P

Or maybe we can cut some sort of article federation deal, where we show LWN our
first drafts of the newsletters, and they get first-pick on any articles, and federate
them behind their paywall, and then we release those articles with our own newsletter
after the subscription period has passed:

https://lwn.net/op/AuthorGuide.lwn # Copyrights and further reproduction

> Authors retain the copyrights for their work.
>
> We ask that you grant LWN exclusive rights to publish your work during the LWN
> subscription period - currently up to two weeks after publication.
>
> Thereafter, we retain the right to publish the material, and release it under the
> Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 license (CC BY-SA 4.0).
>
> After the subscription period, authors may republish their work however they wish. 


IDK. I'm just throwing out ideas and hoping something sticks long enough to be useful :) 


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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, January 23, 2017 2:58:25 AM EST Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 16:35:39 -0500
> 
> "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> > I think the concept is still sound. Linode used to offer a $100 for
> > documentation. That was so well received, they had to stop the program due
> > to the backlog. I would not suggest it for documentation etc. But a
> > newsletter, why not.
> 
> I think it would be nice if there was an alternative way to earn newsletter
> access via contribution. Because it does seem strange to me to have to pay
> for a newsletter that describes what you're doing yourself in part.

Not paying for newsletter, paying for some of the content. Given an incentive 
to spend time on something that may not be directly beneficial.
 
> It may be worth considering getting volume licensing, ie: advertise to
> companies to either buy a block of subscriptions themselves which they can
> grant access to X number of people.

Not sure what you mean by advertise.
 
> Or alternatively, instead of relying on a user-pays model in entity, have a
> corporate sponsorship scheme where we give out the newsletter for free, but
> a company foots a bill in exchange for some thanks/promotional/unobtrusive
> advertising.

Corporate sponsors will only sponsor Gentoo if they have a direct benefit. 
Right now with how Gentoo is. There is no reason for anyone to give Gentoo 
money, individual or corporation.

The more money is put to further development. The more reasons there will be 
to donate or sponsor Gentoo.

> IDK. I'm just throwing out ideas and hoping something sticks long enough to
> be useful :)

Ideas are good, but to many toss out ideas not willing to do the work. Or 
understanding what it will take to make such ideas come to reality.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[Kent Fredric]

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On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 11:21:12 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> Corporate sponsors will only sponsor Gentoo if they have a direct benefit. 
> Right now with how Gentoo is. There is no reason for anyone to give Gentoo 
> money, individual or corporation.

People reading the newsletter seeing that a company sponsored it both makes
people more aware that a company exists, and gives them confidence that the company
cares enough about opensource to sponsor it.

And this makes opensource preferring people more likely to choose that company.

How do you think The Perl Foundation has money to pay for developing things?

Oh. They have sponsors, and they're listed: https://metacpan.org/about/meta_hack 

Note: All of these companies have some mutualistic involvement.

And there's this: http://pythonchallenge.org/sponsors-and-partners/

This: https://us.pycon.org/2015/sponsors/ 

This: http://www.rubyconf.org/sponsors

This: https://jaxlondon.com/sponsors-exhibitors/ 

There is direct benefit: Being seen is a direct benefit.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[Kent Fredric]

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On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 11:21:12 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

>  
> > It may be worth considering getting volume licensing, ie: advertise to
> > companies to either buy a block of subscriptions themselves which they can
> > grant access to X number of people.  
> 
> Not sure what you mean by advertise.

On the "Subscribe" page, you get a "Single Developer Subscription" option,
and a "Company Subscription" option.

Though it would have to be a pretty sizeable company with a lot of staff
using Gentoo, or the discounted rate would have to be substantiative to work out
for them.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[Kent Fredric]

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On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 11:21:12 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> Not paying for newsletter, paying for some of the content. Given an incentive 
> to spend time on something that may not be directly beneficial.

Can you explain how you see that working?

I don't myself see how you can pay for /some/ of a newsletter. You get a whole newsletter
or no newsletter.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[Kent Fredric]

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On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 11:21:12 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> Ideas are good, but to many toss out ideas not willing to do the work. Or 
> understanding what it will take to make such ideas come to reality.

Prematurely judging ideas when they're under developed based on a conjecture
that the limited context you have so far indicates they "can't work" is also
harmful, because it simply excludes the fact there may be some data you failed
to consider that makes it work.

Hence, it is often effective to intentionally extend through insane ideas
as a thought exercise, in the assumption that you will discover a final piece
of the puzzle along the way, and then only judge the ideas once you've gotten
to a point you *must* start implementing something.

Culling the ideas before you even sit down and implement things leads to the worst
decision making.

It is the very definition of "Short sighted"

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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, January 23, 2017 5:57:55 AM EST Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 11:21:12 -0500
> 
> "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> > Corporate sponsors will only sponsor Gentoo if they have a direct benefit.
> > Right now with how Gentoo is. There is no reason for anyone to give Gentoo
> > money, individual or corporation.
> 
> People reading the newsletter seeing that a company sponsored it both makes
> people more aware that a company exists, and gives them confidence that the
> company cares enough about opensource to sponsor it.

I am very aware of benefits to sponsorship. That was something I wanted to see 
more of when I was a Trustee.

As a business owner, you keep missing the point. Why should any business give 
money to Gentoo? What do the get? Representation? A vote? Anything?

Businesses do not sponsor for no reason. Individuals donate to something as a 
fan, but not the same as a business. Businesses usually need a direct benefit, 
one that can effect their bottom line. Thus their incentive to sponsor or 
donate.

A write off is not a motivating factor. Business can write off many expenses.

> And this makes opensource preferring people more likely to choose that
> company.
> 
> How do you think The Perl Foundation has money to pay for developing things?

Or like I have pointed out FreeBSD. But these are properly run foundations 
with budgets, fund raisers, etc. They pay for many tasks.

Gentoo is very far from having a well run Foundation. I doubt moving to the 
SPI, etc would do such. Most that have corporate sponsors run their own 
foundations.

Businesses sponsoring development are going to want to see effort. Since 
Gentoo cannot tell anyone what to work on. Not sure how that would work.
Business wants to see A developed, people work on B instead. Business pulls 
sponsorship.

This do what ever model of Gentoo with no requirements, no direction, no 
"managers/bosses", no one directing development or focusing efforts. No way a 
business would sponsor Gentoo. Why it gets very little in the way of donations 
or sponsors compared to others.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, January 23, 2017 6:00:52 AM EST Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 11:21:12 -0500
> 
> "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> > > It may be worth considering getting volume licensing, ie: advertise to
> > > companies to either buy a block of subscriptions themselves which they
> > > can
> > > grant access to X number of people.
> > 
> > Not sure what you mean by advertise.
> 
> On the "Subscribe" page, you get a "Single Developer Subscription" option,
> and a "Company Subscription" option.

Are you implying a paying subscription to a newsletter that should be free? I 
was under the impression you mean like paying for actual advertising, like 
spots in the news letter or on the website.

> Though it would have to be a pretty sizeable company with a lot of staff
> using Gentoo, or the discounted rate would have to be substantiative to work
> out for them.

I do not see businesses spending money on Gentoo for a variety of factors. As 
a business owner myself I have no incentive. Gentoo would waste my money and 
not direct it toward development. Gentoo has no plans to use the money to 
further development.

I would be better off doing what companies do now. Hire people who are Gentoo 
developers, and/or can become one. Then I can pay them to do directly what I 
want. By passing anything within Gentoo, Trustees, Council, etc.

Companies are doing this now. They have no reason to give money to Gentoo

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, January 23, 2017 6:02:37 AM EST Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 11:21:12 -0500
> 
> "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> > Not paying for newsletter, paying for some of the content. Given an
> > incentive to spend time on something that may not be directly beneficial.
> 
> Can you explain how you see that working?
> 
> I don't myself see how you can pay for /some/ of a newsletter. You get a
> whole newsletter or no newsletter.

 I used an example of Linode paying $100 for documentation.

Something like a $10 or something small reward for an article that is used. An 
editor may get say $100 per GWN issue, that would run say $1200 a year. With a 
little more depending on articles. Gentoo could easily afford that for a good 
GWN like it had before.

Really up to others to decide on how much for what, etc. This would also 
require some time on the Trustees and others behalf to cut checks, do the 
accounting.

This would give reason to say donate or sponsor the GWN. Since they could see 
their money being used for articles, etc.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, January 23, 2017 6:05:59 AM EST Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 11:21:12 -0500
> 
> "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> > Ideas are good, but to many toss out ideas not willing to do the work. Or
> > understanding what it will take to make such ideas come to reality.
> 
> Prematurely judging ideas when they're under developed based on a conjecture
> that the limited context you have so far indicates they "can't work" is
> also harmful, because it simply excludes the fact there may be some data
> you failed to consider that makes it work.

That could be said to the GLEP I asked for comments on  :)

Just saying like with the Foundation, sponsoring, SPI, etc. People toss out 
ideas that require considerable time to make happen. I am willing to put forth 
the effort, but most are not.

Most will want to toss in their 2 cents to those doing the work. Which I am 
not sure is right, because unless you are willing to donate your time. Your 
opinion some what matters, but not the same. As your idea may require 
considerable time that your expecting someone else do to do.

Thus if you come up with an idea you should be willing to do the work behind 
such. Or maybe keep your opinion to yourself, if your not going to take part.

> Hence, it is often effective to intentionally extend through insane ideas
> as a thought exercise, in the assumption that you will discover a final
> piece of the puzzle along the way, and then only judge the ideas once
> you've gotten to a point you *must* start implementing something.

To a point. More time is lost due to indecision than wrong.  You cannot make 
everyone happy all the time. You can over discuss something trying to hammer 
out all details so everyone is on board and get no where doing that. To the 
point where it is never implemented.

The SPI/SFC has been discussed a few times. Why has that never happened? It 
proves my point! You need to just do this stuff sometimes rather than 
endlessly discuss. Very few who discuss it will put forth the effort.

> Culling the ideas before you even sit down and implement things leads to the
> worst decision making.

Yes, like others saying a GLEP will not work that has not be tried. Lots of 
negative nancy's running around.

> It is the very definition of "Short sighted"

I think I saw reference to Gentoo in that definition :)

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[Kent Fredric]

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On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 12:21:04 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

>  I used an example of Linode paying $100 for documentation.

Ok. So, this is probably where we got derailed.

Its not clear *who* is paying for *what*.

The outlay gave the impression that it was creating an LWN-esque
newsletter, which would take income from subscribers who read it.

Whereas that suggest there is no such association, and the only changing
hands of money is "somebody" pays an author to write the article, which
everyone else then receives for free.

And the only source of income is the people requesting articles.

You've covered the "<something at gentoo>" -> "<person who writes article>"
part of the dynamic, but where the money comes from to make this happen,
and the scheme under which the money is obtained is not entirely clear.

Looking back I can see now you didn't write that as such, its just how the framing
turned out:

 "Paying for news" -> "who pays for news"? -> "subscribers pay for news"

( This is not an invitation to enter a discussion about how language happens,
 but to give insight onto how confusion was created in attempt to prevent it happening
 in future, and to recalibrate the direction of further conversation )

In short though: Depsite how much you write, I seldom find you "clear" to read.

And the more you write in attempt to rectify this problem, the worse it will be.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, January 23, 2017 6:41:15 AM EST Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 12:21:04 -0500
> 
> "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> >  I used an example of Linode paying $100 for documentation.
> 
> Ok. So, this is probably where we got derailed.
> 
> Its not clear *who* is paying for *what*.

Looks like Linode has increased to $250 from $100
https://www.linode.com/docs/linode-writers-guide/

> The outlay gave the impression that it was creating an LWN-esque
> newsletter, which would take income from subscribers who read it.

No, nothing to do with readers. This is about authors. Paying authors.

> Whereas that suggest there is no such association, and the only changing
> hands of money is "somebody" pays an author to write the article, which
> everyone else then receives for free.

Yes that is the idea. Gentoo pays people for content for the GWN. Along with 
editors to put it all together.

> And the only source of income is the people requesting articles.

Income is normal foundation. This would come from Foundation funds, how ever 
they were gathered.

> You've covered the "<something at gentoo>" -> "<person who writes article>"
> part of the dynamic, but where the money comes from to make this happen,
> and the scheme under which the money is obtained is not entirely clear.

The Foundation has money now. It rarely spends it, thus people rarely donate.

> Looking back I can see now you didn't write that as such, its just how the
> framing turned out:
> 
>  "Paying for news" -> "who pays for news"? -> "subscribers pay for news"

People always twist and read what I write in their own ways. We all have 
filters we view the world through.

> In short though: Depsite how much you write, I seldom find you "clear" to
> read.

Could be culture differences, maybe even language. Even native English varies 
around the world.
 
-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[Kent Fredric]

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On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 12:17:25 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> I do not see businesses spending money on Gentoo for a variety of factors. As 
> a business owner myself I have no incentive. Gentoo would waste my money and 
> not direct it toward development. Gentoo has no plans to use the money to 
> further development.
> 
> I would be better off doing what companies do now. Hire people who are Gentoo 
> developers, and/or can become one. Then I can pay them to do directly what I 
> want. By passing anything within Gentoo, Trustees, Council, etc.
> 
> Companies are doing this now. They have no reason to give money to Gentoo

When you talk about yourself, I think you're not asking the right question.

Given:

- There are opensource organisations
- There are companies that give them money
- This is a thing
- These organisations typically don't have focused directed outcomes from said
  donations ( because if the donations were earmarked it would be a payment,
  for services rendered, not a donation )

Why do companies give their money away?

Also, have you considered Gentoo *could* create workflows where given gentoo
developers do specified volumes of work, planned in advance, for pay, using
money given to them by organisations? 

Grant Structure.

And its not like Gentoo doesn't need developers, or have lots of ugly things
that require somebody to basically be a full time developer to get it done.

Hence, Companies that *USE* Gentoo are the primary audience *because* they use Gentoo,
and are thus a natural benefactor from any Gentoo improvement.

And as Gentoo is important to their businesses success, it makes sense to invest in that
infrastructure you're otherwise getting for free.





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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[Kent Fredric]

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On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 12:51:56 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> > Looking back I can see now you didn't write that as such, its just how the
> > framing turned out:
> > 
> >  "Paying for news" -> "who pays for news"? -> "subscribers pay for news"  
> 
> People always twist and read what I write in their own ways. We all have 
> filters we view the world through.
> 
> > In short though: Depsite how much you write, I seldom find you "clear" to
> > read.  
> 
> Could be culture differences, maybe even language. Even native English varies 
> around the world.
>  

If you're ever feeling really generous, and you want to write something and post
it to the -project ML and avoid such confusion from the start, you *might*
want to consider sending it to me, or some other person perhaps, in advance,
and then we can argue about the details and concepts privately until we work out
what exactly each other is saying ( even if we disagree on some key element ).

That way we don't clutter the mailing list prematurely with everyone going off
on tangents based on misunderstanding each others misunderstanding.

I might not be able to be of use in all cases, anything that gets too much
business speak and abbreviations or lots of layers of social stuff and buzzwords
and I'm out, but otherwise .... 


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Re: [gentoo-project] Rekindling Gentoo News -> Paying for news

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, January 23, 2017 6:57:43 AM EST Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 12:17:25 -0500
> 
> "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> > I do not see businesses spending money on Gentoo for a variety of factors.
> > As a business owner myself I have no incentive. Gentoo would waste my
> > money and not direct it toward development. Gentoo has no plans to use
> > the money to further development.
> > 
> > I would be better off doing what companies do now. Hire people who are
> > Gentoo developers, and/or can become one. Then I can pay them to do
> > directly what I want. By passing anything within Gentoo, Trustees,
> > Council, etc.
> > 
> > Companies are doing this now. They have no reason to give money to Gentoo
> 
> When you talk about yourself, I think you're not asking the right question.
> 
> Given:
> 
> - There are opensource organisations
> - There are companies that give them money
> - This is a thing
> - These organisations typically don't have focused directed outcomes from
> said donations ( because if the donations were earmarked it would be a
> payment, for services rendered, not a donation )

Sponsorship tends to be toward a specific direction. A donation has no 
intention.

Where the two overlap is when you put forth a budget and hold a fund raiser to 
fund said budget. Then people can see where the money is going either as a 
sponsor or donor.

> Why do companies give their money away?

I have looked into this, and I own a company. I understand their reasoning and 
why they are NOT giving money to Gentoo now. How money given to Gentoo pales 
in comparison to donations to others.

> Also, have you considered Gentoo *could* create workflows where given gentoo
> developers do specified volumes of work, planned in advance, for pay, using
> money given to them by organisations?

I have considered many things. But without Foundation changes and a legal/
financial structure to make it all happen it is pipe dreams.

Paying for GWN stuff is minimal and could be done now, today!

> Grant Structure.
> 
> And its not like Gentoo doesn't need developers, or have lots of ugly things
> that require somebody to basically be a full time developer to get it done.
>
> Hence, Companies that *USE* Gentoo are the primary audience *because* they
> use Gentoo, and are thus a natural benefactor from any Gentoo improvement.

My business uses Gentoo. My interest in Gentoo has always been for my direct 
use. I know many who work on Gentoo but do not use it. Definitely do not use it 
for their day job, or even run it on their personal systems.
 
Companies that "use" or run Gentoo are less and less ever day... That is part 
of the problem you are also not realizing. In the US, companies are moving 
away from Gentoo. I do not know of any looking to migrate to Gentoo.

> And as Gentoo is important to their businesses success, it makes sense to
> invest in that infrastructure you're otherwise getting for free.

I am aware but these businesses have mostly moved on. I know of a few. I know 
of more who are leaving or have left Gentoo.  People I know who first turned me 
onto Gentoo will never consider it for their business.

I do not even mention Gentoo anymore at LUG meetings and otherwise. It has 
become worse than the red headed step child.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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