From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E73E138334 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2019 03:33:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5B7FBE09C2; Thu, 20 Jun 2019 03:33:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4C1CE096C for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2019 03:33:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.6.147] ([212.159.46.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.179]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MGhi0-1hqOkS0FSk-00DoDF for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2019 05:33:54 +0200 Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] ComRel membership vs politeness on mailing lists To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org References: <20190616230014.GA29589@orbis-terrarum.net> <52091213f893986fd391adb5c9eade09265aecf9.camel@gentoo.org> <20190618192018.734c61e56cd975667f6d620a@gentoo.org> <9b28f1997ae8a25416edd1df0bf4d1b0b5e42866.camel@gentoo.org> <20190619080331.60503654e2e595d52137e11c@gentoo.org> <28a3dbf8e9b8e6c48107a54d72ed4f5dd09494fb.camel@gentoo.org> <816540ba70d26f8eb9858fc8db9fd4b57de1cf27.camel@gentoo.org> <10239df9-b6a7-0d10-8909-07f454862c39@gentoo.org> From: Michael Everitt Openpgp: id=BA266E0525CFAB101523351B4C30334F93C22371 Autocrypt: addr=m.j.everitt@iee.org; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <10239df9-b6a7-0d10-8909-07f454862c39@gentoo.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:BCn355Ol6+5A7QWQtOSpzOPX65mbxuoYNFpK3eXyJDk2LzJjb8A 6RYT/z+UXoV1LzEkrhPYprMBjS/e9irKoGJSw37jAuWoAiUuJp9F4KySawTWbyRyRLnjn43 39R/GlqsUumubiPS4hWorTmwaxxytRO+cWSbLKvuM/yHHDpz2uQppiw+sIN/TkGxMkurxr3 OMJ/9IxsbwgapSGCFq0uQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:DJMHUb+LEFA=:5gQzu8oC5Z+Nd/lGXIlv5c Oedz8PkHpQ+h6bqX1Sqh89s4jiRx13Y9a3eV5l7QASPWIdAymSmRLW/sqoAIXO6hYFQacIFrS EIHUHORtAe4ofOWkYO4aEXw1qtPNv3X/tOP2HK7Lecz/rKc7A7VK8LKis0VIV9jbYiD/xCKqP J2SvEN3TuqrjI3gaHMs0Lbfx1k1AzMKPZgEPT4vS3lpysFUJHQJrHhgnOFgAvfTLub8JftrIk uM4ndlOTqO7Gw0QBTIU/SG63pNK6U9mbELN7lc8Tr9PligowJaB/Xan1PFbJTOrrN84DASi7q RxPfmq8OLESXHh7ZhnorO+aNjAu2c9NwhVx3Iubs2HGdw2S9BjIaqqbB0DPHqYC+4W1YqQk9C 6te9QPZ3p6mcgTkycX4CBlwIvut9Gh+8Lp6sm74SaCejQsmi14ODlJepSG466Qr2xfe/5Faxn 1AdHpDSprlkaEiK3uFbBicCdBttqOf5CNdOes4gzN0BZoEpo+0BlLrpeCg2Qkd47xTIpn9W7a D26C8d1RIBKCsaqTqducy5kCThoGDRvmMEZejPdC5HACHLwEet+mSb1AycfZx4wsDT4rC1Fu7 EgZHyLwHMcP1MZ7wyjq3bFNkZ8yzSgsvVHH6gkoj99D/8+fATusqGZMGdWbVEpw8L4LyKkZCb 2NxbzrTJ3JYjn0i4sqIY7jL7uxDCgDhegykeLmKrq2MomZTyF9ak+uZZKXhHHARoO4ez522fa lfLngtMQCULn4P1285cywtf79jZn+XqkRGUnNduuTVQHJRzrCzcSrKOt6ac= X-Archives-Salt: 0ce2c8e1-a120-45bd-9fed-42d6d9aad403 X-Archives-Hash: 4e1b110a124f45a8a0a6fc77c2815ebc On 20/06/19 04:30, desultory wrote: > On 06/19/19 17:20, David Seifert wrote: >> On Wed, 2019-06-19 at 14:06 -0400, Matt Turner wrote: >>> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 8:38 AM Michał Górny >>> wrote: >>>> On Wed, 2019-06-19 at 08:03 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 20:33:09 +0200 Michał Górny wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:20 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote: >>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:43:05 +0200 Michał Górny wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote: >>>>>>>>> Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation >>>>>>>>> members may be >>>>>>>>> nominated. [1] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nominations MUST be made by posting to >>>>>>>>> gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org, and >>>>>>>>> the nominated candidate must accept not later than the >>>>>>>>> end of the >>>>>>>>> nomination period. >>>>>>>> Ok, let's try someone else. I nominate: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David Seifert (soap) >>>>>>>> Mikle Kolyada (zlogene) >>>>>>> You violated the rules: >>>>>>> Nominations MUST be made by posting to >>>>>>> gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But you sent them to gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mail >>>>>>> list. >>>>>>> Hereby they are not valid. Please perform your duty properly >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> send nominations to the aforementioned NFP mail list. >>>>>>> >>>>>> You could also have understood it was a honest mistake and be >>>>>> nice about >>>>>> it. But I suppose that's too much to expect from a ComRel >>>>>> member. >>>>> I politely pointed out your mistake and nicely asked you to fix >>>>> it. >>>>> I even used the word "please". I honestly don't see what was not >>>>> nice about my previous e-mail. Maybe we have a language barrier >>>>> issue here. >>>>> >>>>> My comrel membership has nothing to do with this discussion and >>>>> I'm participating in it as a common Gentoo developer with my >>>>> comrel >>>>> hat off. >>>>> >>>> Do you really believe that a ComRel member (read: a person whose >>>> duty >>>> involves judging other people's behavior) can just take ComRel hat >>>> off >>>> and stop caring about providing exemplary behavior? Following that >>>> logic, I could join ComRel claiming that all the things I've said >>>> and done were 'with my comrel hat off' (since I don't have any)! >>>> >>>> I understand that there might be a language barrier. However, >>>> since you >>>> decide to perform a very specific and important role, I'm afraid >>>> you >>>> need to learn to use English in a way that's actually polite rather >>>> than >>>> using the excuse of a language barrier. >>>> >>>> Let me explain. >>>> >>>> A neutral (i.e. not really polite but acceptable) way of saying >>>> that >>>> would be to say 'you have posted the nominations to the wrong >>>> list'. >>>> That's plain and factual. >>>> >>>> You said 'you violated the rules' which is an >>>> accusation. Accusations >>>> tend to render one as guilty of doing something very >>>> bad. Accusations >>>> are not polite. >>>> >>>> Furthermore, 'perform your duty properly' is passive >>>> aggressive. Adding >>>> 'please' doesn't make it any more polite -- in fact, given just >>>> before >>>> a insulting statement it may have the exact opposite effect. >>>> >>>> The polite way of saying that would be to strip the first part >>>> of the sentence and just say 'please send nominations ...' In >>>> fact, >>>> as you can see the passive aggressive part is completely >>>> unnecessary to >>>> convey the meaning, so what's the purpose of adding it besides >>>> intentionally offending someone? >>> As a native English speaker I agree with Michał's assessment. >>> >> so do I. >> >> >> > Since, apparently, all native speakers of English are now supposed to > opine on this, here goes. > > As a native speaker of English, I do not agree that mgorny's reply to > bircoph was warranted. He replied to a statement of fact, and request to > actually follow published rules by smearing an entire team. > > Was bircoph's message the epitome of polite and deferential writing? No. > Is there any reason that it needed to be? Also no. Was it as bad as > comments regularly made by mgorny on this and other mailing lists? > Certainly not, unless you somehow consider being brusque to be worse > than actively belittling or indeed libelous. Would I have taken issue > with mgorny's initial reply had he left as only the first sentence and > resending the nominations to the correct list? No, bircoph's message > could be taken as being mildly rude and just because mgorny has > regularly failed to avoid doing the same, and indeed worse, does not > mean that he cannot ask others to do better. Is there any sensible > reason to make a fuss over this? Absolutely not, yet here we are with > yet another tempest in a teapot on the lists. > +1