[gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[Robin H. Johnson]

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To whom it may concern,

This email contains notifications about the 2019 Trustee Election [1],
as well as the Annual General Meeting (AGM).

The AGM of the Gentoo Foundation Inc is scheduled as follows:
Date & Time: 2019/08/26 03:00 UTC.
Location: Freenode IRC network, #gentoo-trustees
A further reminder of the AGM will be sent closer to the date, as per
bylaw 3.4.

The 2019 Trustee Election will be held over June, July and August.
Nominations will be open for three weeks, starting on June 16th.
Voting will take place over four weeks, starting July 10th.

Only Foundation members as of the recording date may vote. [2]

Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members may be
nominated. [1]

Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org, and
the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of the
nomination period.

Please note that the recording date will take place during the
nomination period. This ensures that there is time to apply for
Foundation membership AND be nominated before the close of nominations.

The formal recording date is taken as of the July trustees meeting
(scheduled for 2019/07/01 03:00 UTC), to permit approval of membership
applications up to and include that meeting.

The new trustees will take their seats during the AGM on August 26.
Trustees serve a two year term and retire by rotation every year.

  Recording date:
  2019-07-01, as of the Trustees meeting
  
  Nomination Period:
  2019-06-16 00:00 UTC - 2019-07-06 23:59 UTC (3 weeks)
  
  Voting Period:
  2019-07-10 00:00 UTC — 2019-08-06 23:59 UTC (4 weeks)
  
  Election Results:
  2019-08-08

Any candidates higher than reopen_nominations are selected at the end
of this round.

If there are open seats at this point, the second round of nomination &
voting will take place.

  Second Nomination Period:
  2019-08-09 00:00 UTC - 2019-08-15 23:59 UTC (1 week)
  
  Second Voting Period:
  2019-08-17 00:00 UTC - 2019-08-23 23:59 UTC (1 week)
  
  Second Election Results available:
  2019-08-24
  
  Gentoo Foundation AGM
  2019-08-26 03:00 UTC

This year, Alice Ferrazzi (alicef) is retiring by rotation [3].
Additionally Alec Warner (antarus) and Robin H. Johnson (robbat2) are resigning.

Thus, there are 3 seats on the board of trustees to be contested.

 [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Elections/Trustees
 [2] https://wiki.gentoo.org-wiki-Foundation:Member_List
 [3] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Bylaws#Section_5.5._Election_and_Term

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

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Re: [gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[Michał Górny]

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On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members may be
> nominated. [1]
> 
> Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org, and
> the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of the
> nomination period.

Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:

David Seifert (soap)
Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny


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Re: [gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[David Seifert]

On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 09:43 +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members may
> > be
> > nominated. [1]
> > 
> > Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org,
> > and
> > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of the
> > nomination period.
> 
> Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> 
> David Seifert (soap)
> Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
> 

Does this mean I'll be placing myself in harm's way and that the IRS
will issue an arrest warrant for me because the Foundation's finances
are a disaster?

Re: [gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[Michał Górny]

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On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 10:03 +0200, David Seifert wrote:
> On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 09:43 +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members may
> > > be
> > > nominated. [1]
> > > 
> > > Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org,
> > > and
> > > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of the
> > > nomination period.
> > 
> > Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> > 
> > David Seifert (soap)
> > Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
> > 
> 
> Does this mean I'll be placing myself in harm's way and that the IRS
> will issue an arrest warrant for me because the Foundation's finances
> are a disaster?
> 

Can't say.  I'd presume US citizens will take care of being arrested,
and we'd be protected by our nice governments.


-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny


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Re: [gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[Matthew Thode]

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On 19-06-18 10:03:04, David Seifert wrote:
> On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 09:43 +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members may
> > > be
> > > nominated. [1]
> > > 
> > > Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org,
> > > and
> > > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of the
> > > nomination period.
> > 
> > Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> > 
> > David Seifert (soap)
> > Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
> > 
> 
> Does this mean I'll be placing myself in harm's way and that the IRS
> will issue an arrest warrant for me because the Foundation's finances
> are a disaster?
> 

We are already making progress on that (the IRS).  Finally found someone
who would at least do some discovery for us, and with that discovery we
should get a quote for clearing it all up (10 years of back taxes, not
as bad as we thought).  Only times I'm aware of people getting arrested
for tax evasion is if they are NOT trying to work it out with them.

-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)

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Re: [gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:43:05 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members may be
> > nominated. [1]
> > 
> > Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org, and
> > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of the
> > nomination period.
> 
> Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> 
> David Seifert (soap)
> Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)

You violated the rules:
  Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org

But you sent them to gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mail list.
Hereby they are not valid. Please perform your duty properly and
send nominations to the aforementioned NFP mail list.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 10:29:38 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 10:03 +0200, David Seifert wrote:
> > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 09:43 +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members may
> > > > be
> > > > nominated. [1]
> > > > 
> > > > Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org,
> > > > and
> > > > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of the
> > > > nomination period.
> > > 
> > > Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> > > 
> > > David Seifert (soap)
> > > Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
> > > 
> > 
> > Does this mean I'll be placing myself in harm's way and that the IRS
> > will issue an arrest warrant for me because the Foundation's finances
> > are a disaster?
> > 
> 
> Can't say.  I'd presume US citizens will take care of being arrested,
> and we'd be protected by our nice governments.

Be careful. Because Poland has extradiction treaty with US: 
https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/99-917-Poland-Extradition-Treaty-1.pdf

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[Michał Górny]

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On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:20 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:43:05 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members may be
> > > nominated. [1]
> > > 
> > > Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org, and
> > > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of the
> > > nomination period.
> > 
> > Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> > 
> > David Seifert (soap)
> > Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
> 
> You violated the rules:
>   Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org
> 
> But you sent them to gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mail list.
> Hereby they are not valid. Please perform your duty properly and
> send nominations to the aforementioned NFP mail list.
> 

You could also have understood it was a honest mistake and be nice about
it.  But I suppose that's too much to expect from a ComRel member.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny


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Re: [gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[David Seifert]

On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:22 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 10:29:38 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 10:03 +0200, David Seifert wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 09:43 +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > > > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members
> > > > > may
> > > > > be
> > > > > nominated. [1]
> > > > > 
> > > > > Nominations MUST be made by posting to 
> > > > > gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org,
> > > > > and
> > > > > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of
> > > > > the
> > > > > nomination period.
> > > > 
> > > > Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> > > > 
> > > > David Seifert (soap)
> > > > Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Does this mean I'll be placing myself in harm's way and that the
> > > IRS
> > > will issue an arrest warrant for me because the Foundation's
> > > finances
> > > are a disaster?
> > > 
> > 
> > Can't say.  I'd presume US citizens will take care of being
> > arrested,
> > and we'd be protected by our nice governments.
> 
> Be careful. Because Poland has extradiction treaty with US: 
> https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/99-917-Poland-Extradition-Treaty-1.pdf
> 
> Best regards,
> Andrew Savchenko

Most European countries have extradition treaties with America. I'm not
even worried about extradition. I'm worried about traveling to America
and then being held legally liable for tax fraud, racketeering and
embezzlement for something I have nothing to do with.

Re: [gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[Alec Warner]

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On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 2:52 PM David Seifert <soap@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:22 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 10:29:38 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 10:03 +0200, David Seifert wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 09:43 +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > > > > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members
> > > > > > may
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > nominated. [1]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nominations MUST be made by posting to
> > > > > > gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > nomination period.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> > > > >
> > > > > David Seifert (soap)
> > > > > Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Does this mean I'll be placing myself in harm's way and that the
> > > > IRS
> > > > will issue an arrest warrant for me because the Foundation's
> > > > finances
> > > > are a disaster?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Can't say.  I'd presume US citizens will take care of being
> > > arrested,
> > > and we'd be protected by our nice governments.
> >
> > Be careful. Because Poland has extradiction treaty with US:
> >
> https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/99-917-Poland-Extradition-Treaty-1.pdf
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Andrew Savchenko
>
> Most European countries have extradition treaties with America. I'm not
> even worried about extradition. I'm worried about traveling to America
> and then being held legally liable for tax fraud, racketeering and
> embezzlement for something I have nothing to do with.
>

I have 2 points here:

1) When you are a director or officer you incur some liability (the
Foundation being a corporation shields you personally from some liability,
but there are obviously things that piece that shield.) If this makes you
uncomfortable, that is fine. If you don't want to hold this position
without Directors and Officers (D&O) insurance, that is also fine.

2) Your comments seem to elude to the fact that previous (and current)
boards committed  crimes. I don't believe this to be true and I'd prefer if
you stop spreading this kind of message without some evidence. I haven't
seen evidence of criminal wrongdoing.

Again, if the liability concerns you, decline. But don't accuse the board
of being criminals.

Thanks,

-A

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Re: [gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[William Hubbs]

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On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 04:30:09PM -0700, Alec Warner wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 2:52 PM David Seifert <soap@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:22 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > > On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 10:29:38 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 10:03 +0200, David Seifert wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 09:43 +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > > > On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > > > > > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members
> > > > > > > may
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > nominated. [1]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nominations MUST be made by posting to
> > > > > > > gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > nomination period.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > David Seifert (soap)
> > > > > > Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Does this mean I'll be placing myself in harm's way and that the
> > > > > IRS
> > > > > will issue an arrest warrant for me because the Foundation's
> > > > > finances
> > > > > are a disaster?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Can't say.  I'd presume US citizens will take care of being
> > > > arrested,
> > > > and we'd be protected by our nice governments.
> > >
> > > Be careful. Because Poland has extradiction treaty with US:
> > >
> > https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/99-917-Poland-Extradition-Treaty-1.pdf
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Andrew Savchenko
> >
> > Most European countries have extradition treaties with America. I'm not
> > even worried about extradition. I'm worried about traveling to America
> > and then being held legally liable for tax fraud, racketeering and
> > embezzlement for something I have nothing to do with.
> >
> 
> I have 2 points here:
> 
> 1) When you are a director or officer you incur some liability (the
> Foundation being a corporation shields you personally from some liability,
> but there are obviously things that piece that shield.) If this makes you
> uncomfortable, that is fine. If you don't want to hold this position
> without Directors and Officers (D&O) insurance, that is also fine.
> 
> 2) Your comments seem to elude to the fact that previous (and current)
> boards committed  crimes. I don't believe this to be true and I'd prefer if
> you stop spreading this kind of message without some evidence. I haven't
> seen evidence of criminal wrongdoing.
> 
> Again, if the liability concerns you, decline. But don't accuse the board
> of being criminals.

I 100% agree. Accusing the board of committing crimes is highly inappropriate.

William


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Re: [gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[Aaron Bauman]

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On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 11:52:38PM +0200, David Seifert wrote:
> On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:22 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 10:29:38 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 10:03 +0200, David Seifert wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 09:43 +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > > > > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members
> > > > > > may
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > nominated. [1]
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Nominations MUST be made by posting to 
> > > > > > gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > nomination period.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> > > > > 
> > > > > David Seifert (soap)
> > > > > Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Does this mean I'll be placing myself in harm's way and that the
> > > > IRS
> > > > will issue an arrest warrant for me because the Foundation's
> > > > finances
> > > > are a disaster?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Can't say.  I'd presume US citizens will take care of being
> > > arrested,
> > > and we'd be protected by our nice governments.
> > 
> > Be careful. Because Poland has extradiction treaty with US: 
> > https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/99-917-Poland-Extradition-Treaty-1.pdf
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Andrew Savchenko
> 
> Most European countries have extradition treaties with America. I'm not
> even worried about extradition. I'm worried about traveling to America
> and then being held legally liable for tax fraud, racketeering and
> embezzlement for something I have nothing to do with.
> 
> 

You, Sir, win the most ignorant comment of the 2019 election cycle.

-- 
Cheers,
Aaron

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Re: [gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[Michał Górny]

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On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 23:52 +0200, David Seifert wrote:
> On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:22 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 10:29:38 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > > Be careful. Because Poland has extradiction treaty with US: 
> > https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/99-917-Poland-Extradition-Treaty-1.pdf
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Andrew Savchenko
> 
> Most European countries have extradition treaties with America. I'm not
> even worried about extradition. I'm worried about traveling to America
> and then being held legally liable for tax fraud, racketeering and
> embezzlement for something I have nothing to do with.
> 

Wouldn't that require you to get a visa first, and is US really going to
issue visas to such tax criminals?  ;-)

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny


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Re: [gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[William Hubbs]

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On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 05:36:14AM +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 23:52 +0200, David Seifert wrote:
> > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:22 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > > On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 10:29:38 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > Be careful. Because Poland has extradiction treaty with US: 
> > > https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/99-917-Poland-Extradition-Treaty-1.pdf
> > > 
> > > Best regards,
> > > Andrew Savchenko
> > 
> > Most European countries have extradition treaties with America. I'm not
> > even worried about extradition. I'm worried about traveling to America
> > and then being held legally liable for tax fraud, racketeering and
> > embezzlement for something I have nothing to do with.
> > 
> 
> Wouldn't that require you to get a visa first, and is US really going to
> issue visas to such tax criminals?  ;-)

This really isn't funny, can we please kill this thread?

Thanks,

William


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Re: [gentoo-project] 2019 Gentoo Foundation Trustee Election & Annual General Meeting

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 20:33:09 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:20 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:43:05 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members may be
> > > > nominated. [1]
> > > > 
> > > > Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org, and
> > > > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of the
> > > > nomination period.
> > > 
> > > Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> > > 
> > > David Seifert (soap)
> > > Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
> > 
> > You violated the rules:
> >   Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org
> > 
> > But you sent them to gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mail list.
> > Hereby they are not valid. Please perform your duty properly and
> > send nominations to the aforementioned NFP mail list.
> > 
> 
> You could also have understood it was a honest mistake and be nice about
> it.  But I suppose that's too much to expect from a ComRel member.

I politely pointed out your mistake and nicely asked you to fix it.
I even used the word "please". I honestly don't see what was not
nice about my previous e-mail. Maybe we have a language barrier
issue here.

My comrel membership has nothing to do with this discussion and
I'm participating in it as a common Gentoo developer with my comrel
hat off.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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[gentoo-project] ComRel membership vs politeness on mailing lists

[Michał Górny]

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On Wed, 2019-06-19 at 08:03 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 20:33:09 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:20 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > > On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:43:05 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > > > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members may be
> > > > > nominated. [1]
> > > > > 
> > > > > Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org, and
> > > > > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of the
> > > > > nomination period.
> > > > 
> > > > Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> > > > 
> > > > David Seifert (soap)
> > > > Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
> > > 
> > > You violated the rules:
> > >   Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org
> > > 
> > > But you sent them to gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mail list.
> > > Hereby they are not valid. Please perform your duty properly and
> > > send nominations to the aforementioned NFP mail list.
> > > 
> > 
> > You could also have understood it was a honest mistake and be nice about
> > it.  But I suppose that's too much to expect from a ComRel member.
> 
> I politely pointed out your mistake and nicely asked you to fix it.
> I even used the word "please". I honestly don't see what was not
> nice about my previous e-mail. Maybe we have a language barrier
> issue here.
> 
> My comrel membership has nothing to do with this discussion and
> I'm participating in it as a common Gentoo developer with my comrel
> hat off.
> 

Do you really believe that a ComRel member (read: a person whose duty
involves judging other people's behavior) can just take ComRel hat off
and stop caring about providing exemplary behavior?  Following that
logic, I could join ComRel claiming that all the things I've said
and done were 'with my comrel hat off' (since I don't have any)!

I understand that there might be a language barrier.  However, since you
decide to perform a very specific and important role, I'm afraid you
need to learn to use English in a way that's actually polite rather than
using the excuse of a language barrier.

Let me explain.

A neutral (i.e. not really polite but acceptable) way of saying that
would be to say 'you have posted the nominations to the wrong list'. 
That's plain and factual.

You said 'you violated the rules' which is an accusation.  Accusations
tend to render one as guilty of doing something very bad.  Accusations
are not polite.

Furthermore, 'perform your duty properly' is passive aggressive.  Adding
'please' doesn't make it any more polite -- in fact, given just before
a insulting statement it may have the exact opposite effect.

The polite way of saying that would be to strip the first part
of the sentence and just say 'please send nominations ...'  In fact,
as you can see the passive aggressive part is completely unnecessary to
convey the meaning, so what's the purpose of adding it besides
intentionally offending someone?

I hope this explanation helps you improve your language skills.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny


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Re: [gentoo-project] ComRel membership vs politeness on mailing lists

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 14:38:34 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> On Wed, 2019-06-19 at 08:03 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 20:33:09 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:20 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:43:05 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > > > > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members may be
> > > > > > nominated. [1]
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org, and
> > > > > > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of the
> > > > > > nomination period.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> > > > > 
> > > > > David Seifert (soap)
> > > > > Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
> > > > 
> > > > You violated the rules:
> > > >   Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org
> > > > 
> > > > But you sent them to gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mail list.
> > > > Hereby they are not valid. Please perform your duty properly and
> > > > send nominations to the aforementioned NFP mail list.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > You could also have understood it was a honest mistake and be nice about
> > > it.  But I suppose that's too much to expect from a ComRel member.
> > 
> > I politely pointed out your mistake and nicely asked you to fix it.
> > I even used the word "please". I honestly don't see what was not
> > nice about my previous e-mail. Maybe we have a language barrier
> > issue here.
> > 
> > My comrel membership has nothing to do with this discussion and
> > I'm participating in it as a common Gentoo developer with my comrel
> > hat off.
> > 
> 
> Do you really believe that a ComRel member (read: a person whose duty
> involves judging other people's behavior) can just take ComRel hat off
> and stop caring about providing exemplary behavior?

I do believe that I am free to express my private opinion on any
public subject as long as such expression is within common sense
communication requirements, e.g. contains no obscene language,
humiliation or intentional misinformation and so on.

> Following that
> logic, I could join ComRel claiming that all the things I've said
> and done were 'with my comrel hat off' (since I don't have any)!
> 
> I understand that there might be a language barrier.  However, since you
> decide to perform a very specific and important role, I'm afraid you
> need to learn to use English in a way that's actually polite rather than
> using the excuse of a language barrier.

The language barrier works both ways. As far as I know English is
not your native language.
 
> Let me explain.
> 
> A neutral (i.e. not really polite but acceptable) way of saying that
> would be to say 'you have posted the nominations to the wrong list'. 
> That's plain and factual.
> 
> You said 'you violated the rules' which is an accusation.

First and foremost this is the plain statement of the fact. As the
QA team member you have to understand that rules are the same for
everyone. Requiring special treatment is not fair to fellow
developers.

>  Accusations
> tend to render one as guilty of doing something very bad.  Accusations
> are not polite.
> 
> Furthermore, 'perform your duty properly' is passive aggressive.

The Oxford dictionary contains different definition of the
"passive-aggressive":
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/passive-aggressive

Let me quote it:

"Definition of passive-aggressive in English:
passive-aggressive
adjective

Of or denoting a type of behaviour or personality characterized by
indirect resistance to the demands of others and an avoidance of
direct confrontation."

Excuse me, but I trust the Oxford dictionary more.

Interesting, that your response to my initial message fits well in
the definition quoted above.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-project] ComRel membership vs politeness on mailing lists

[Matt Turner]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 8:38 AM Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2019-06-19 at 08:03 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 20:33:09 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:20 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:43:05 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > > > > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation members may be
> > > > > > nominated. [1]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org, and
> > > > > > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the end of the
> > > > > > nomination period.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> > > > >
> > > > > David Seifert (soap)
> > > > > Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
> > > >
> > > > You violated the rules:
> > > >   Nominations MUST be made by posting to gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org
> > > >
> > > > But you sent them to gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mail list.
> > > > Hereby they are not valid. Please perform your duty properly and
> > > > send nominations to the aforementioned NFP mail list.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You could also have understood it was a honest mistake and be nice about
> > > it.  But I suppose that's too much to expect from a ComRel member.
> >
> > I politely pointed out your mistake and nicely asked you to fix it.
> > I even used the word "please". I honestly don't see what was not
> > nice about my previous e-mail. Maybe we have a language barrier
> > issue here.
> >
> > My comrel membership has nothing to do with this discussion and
> > I'm participating in it as a common Gentoo developer with my comrel
> > hat off.
> >
>
> Do you really believe that a ComRel member (read: a person whose duty
> involves judging other people's behavior) can just take ComRel hat off
> and stop caring about providing exemplary behavior?  Following that
> logic, I could join ComRel claiming that all the things I've said
> and done were 'with my comrel hat off' (since I don't have any)!
>
> I understand that there might be a language barrier.  However, since you
> decide to perform a very specific and important role, I'm afraid you
> need to learn to use English in a way that's actually polite rather than
> using the excuse of a language barrier.
>
> Let me explain.
>
> A neutral (i.e. not really polite but acceptable) way of saying that
> would be to say 'you have posted the nominations to the wrong list'.
> That's plain and factual.
>
> You said 'you violated the rules' which is an accusation.  Accusations
> tend to render one as guilty of doing something very bad.  Accusations
> are not polite.
>
> Furthermore, 'perform your duty properly' is passive aggressive.  Adding
> 'please' doesn't make it any more polite -- in fact, given just before
> a insulting statement it may have the exact opposite effect.
>
> The polite way of saying that would be to strip the first part
> of the sentence and just say 'please send nominations ...'  In fact,
> as you can see the passive aggressive part is completely unnecessary to
> convey the meaning, so what's the purpose of adding it besides
> intentionally offending someone?

As a native English speaker I agree with Michał's assessment.

Re: [gentoo-project] ComRel membership vs politeness on mailing lists

[David Seifert]

On Wed, 2019-06-19 at 14:06 -0400, Matt Turner wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 8:38 AM Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2019-06-19 at 08:03 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > > On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 20:33:09 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:20 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:43:05 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > > > On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > > > > > Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation
> > > > > > > members may be
> > > > > > > nominated. [1]
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Nominations MUST be made by posting to 
> > > > > > > gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org, and
> > > > > > > the nominated candidate must accept not later than the
> > > > > > > end of the
> > > > > > > nomination period.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > David Seifert (soap)
> > > > > > Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
> > > > > 
> > > > > You violated the rules:
> > > > >   Nominations MUST be made by posting to 
> > > > > gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org
> > > > > 
> > > > > But you sent them to gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mail
> > > > > list.
> > > > > Hereby they are not valid. Please perform your duty properly
> > > > > and
> > > > > send nominations to the aforementioned NFP mail list.
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > You could also have understood it was a honest mistake and be
> > > > nice about
> > > > it.  But I suppose that's too much to expect from a ComRel
> > > > member.
> > > 
> > > I politely pointed out your mistake and nicely asked you to fix
> > > it.
> > > I even used the word "please". I honestly don't see what was not
> > > nice about my previous e-mail. Maybe we have a language barrier
> > > issue here.
> > > 
> > > My comrel membership has nothing to do with this discussion and
> > > I'm participating in it as a common Gentoo developer with my
> > > comrel
> > > hat off.
> > > 
> > 
> > Do you really believe that a ComRel member (read: a person whose
> > duty
> > involves judging other people's behavior) can just take ComRel hat
> > off
> > and stop caring about providing exemplary behavior?  Following that
> > logic, I could join ComRel claiming that all the things I've said
> > and done were 'with my comrel hat off' (since I don't have any)!
> > 
> > I understand that there might be a language barrier.  However,
> > since you
> > decide to perform a very specific and important role, I'm afraid
> > you
> > need to learn to use English in a way that's actually polite rather
> > than
> > using the excuse of a language barrier.
> > 
> > Let me explain.
> > 
> > A neutral (i.e. not really polite but acceptable) way of saying
> > that
> > would be to say 'you have posted the nominations to the wrong
> > list'.
> > That's plain and factual.
> > 
> > You said 'you violated the rules' which is an
> > accusation.  Accusations
> > tend to render one as guilty of doing something very
> > bad.  Accusations
> > are not polite.
> > 
> > Furthermore, 'perform your duty properly' is passive
> > aggressive.  Adding
> > 'please' doesn't make it any more polite -- in fact, given just
> > before
> > a insulting statement it may have the exact opposite effect.
> > 
> > The polite way of saying that would be to strip the first part
> > of the sentence and just say 'please send nominations ...'  In
> > fact,
> > as you can see the passive aggressive part is completely
> > unnecessary to
> > convey the meaning, so what's the purpose of adding it besides
> > intentionally offending someone?
> 
> As a native English speaker I agree with Michał's assessment.
> 

so do I.

Re: [gentoo-project] ComRel membership vs politeness on mailing lists

[desultory]

On 06/19/19 17:20, David Seifert wrote:
> On Wed, 2019-06-19 at 14:06 -0400, Matt Turner wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 8:38 AM Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org>
>> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2019-06-19 at 08:03 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 20:33:09 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:20 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:43:05 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>> Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation
>>>>>>>> members may be
>>>>>>>> nominated. [1]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nominations MUST be made by posting to 
>>>>>>>> gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org, and
>>>>>>>> the nominated candidate must accept not later than the
>>>>>>>> end of the
>>>>>>>> nomination period.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David Seifert (soap)
>>>>>>> Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You violated the rules:
>>>>>>   Nominations MUST be made by posting to 
>>>>>> gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you sent them to gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mail
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>> Hereby they are not valid. Please perform your duty properly
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> send nominations to the aforementioned NFP mail list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You could also have understood it was a honest mistake and be
>>>>> nice about
>>>>> it.  But I suppose that's too much to expect from a ComRel
>>>>> member.
>>>>
>>>> I politely pointed out your mistake and nicely asked you to fix
>>>> it.
>>>> I even used the word "please". I honestly don't see what was not
>>>> nice about my previous e-mail. Maybe we have a language barrier
>>>> issue here.
>>>>
>>>> My comrel membership has nothing to do with this discussion and
>>>> I'm participating in it as a common Gentoo developer with my
>>>> comrel
>>>> hat off.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do you really believe that a ComRel member (read: a person whose
>>> duty
>>> involves judging other people's behavior) can just take ComRel hat
>>> off
>>> and stop caring about providing exemplary behavior?  Following that
>>> logic, I could join ComRel claiming that all the things I've said
>>> and done were 'with my comrel hat off' (since I don't have any)!
>>>
>>> I understand that there might be a language barrier.  However,
>>> since you
>>> decide to perform a very specific and important role, I'm afraid
>>> you
>>> need to learn to use English in a way that's actually polite rather
>>> than
>>> using the excuse of a language barrier.
>>>
>>> Let me explain.
>>>
>>> A neutral (i.e. not really polite but acceptable) way of saying
>>> that
>>> would be to say 'you have posted the nominations to the wrong
>>> list'.
>>> That's plain and factual.
>>>
>>> You said 'you violated the rules' which is an
>>> accusation.  Accusations
>>> tend to render one as guilty of doing something very
>>> bad.  Accusations
>>> are not polite.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, 'perform your duty properly' is passive
>>> aggressive.  Adding
>>> 'please' doesn't make it any more polite -- in fact, given just
>>> before
>>> a insulting statement it may have the exact opposite effect.
>>>
>>> The polite way of saying that would be to strip the first part
>>> of the sentence and just say 'please send nominations ...'  In
>>> fact,
>>> as you can see the passive aggressive part is completely
>>> unnecessary to
>>> convey the meaning, so what's the purpose of adding it besides
>>> intentionally offending someone?
>>
>> As a native English speaker I agree with Michał's assessment.
>>
> 
> so do I.
> 
> 
> 
Since, apparently, all native speakers of English are now supposed to
opine on this, here goes.

As a native speaker of English, I do not agree that mgorny's reply to
bircoph was warranted. He replied to a statement of fact, and request to
actually follow published rules by smearing an entire team.

Was bircoph's message the epitome of polite and deferential writing? No.
Is there any reason that it needed to be? Also no. Was it as bad as
comments regularly made by mgorny on this and other mailing lists?
Certainly not, unless you somehow consider being brusque to be worse
than actively belittling or indeed libelous. Would I have taken issue
with mgorny's initial reply had he left as only the first sentence and
resending the nominations to the correct list? No, bircoph's message
could be taken as being mildly rude and just because mgorny has
regularly failed to avoid doing the same, and indeed worse, does not
mean that he cannot ask others to do better. Is there any sensible
reason to make a fuss over this? Absolutely not, yet here we are with
yet another tempest in a teapot on the lists.

Re: [gentoo-project] ComRel membership vs politeness on mailing lists

[Michael Everitt]

On 20/06/19 04:30, desultory wrote:
> On 06/19/19 17:20, David Seifert wrote:
>> On Wed, 2019-06-19 at 14:06 -0400, Matt Turner wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 8:38 AM Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 2019-06-19 at 08:03 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 20:33:09 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 19:20 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:43:05 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 2019-06-16 at 23:00 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Only active Gentoo developers who are also Foundation
>>>>>>>>> members may be
>>>>>>>>> nominated. [1]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nominations MUST be made by posting to 
>>>>>>>>> gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org, and
>>>>>>>>> the nominated candidate must accept not later than the
>>>>>>>>> end of the
>>>>>>>>> nomination period.
>>>>>>>> Ok, let's try someone else.  I nominate:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David Seifert (soap)
>>>>>>>> Mikle Kolyada (zlogene)
>>>>>>> You violated the rules:
>>>>>>>   Nominations MUST be made by posting to 
>>>>>>> gentoo-nfp@lists.gentoo.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But you sent them to gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mail
>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>> Hereby they are not valid. Please perform your duty properly
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> send nominations to the aforementioned NFP mail list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You could also have understood it was a honest mistake and be
>>>>>> nice about
>>>>>> it.  But I suppose that's too much to expect from a ComRel
>>>>>> member.
>>>>> I politely pointed out your mistake and nicely asked you to fix
>>>>> it.
>>>>> I even used the word "please". I honestly don't see what was not
>>>>> nice about my previous e-mail. Maybe we have a language barrier
>>>>> issue here.
>>>>>
>>>>> My comrel membership has nothing to do with this discussion and
>>>>> I'm participating in it as a common Gentoo developer with my
>>>>> comrel
>>>>> hat off.
>>>>>
>>>> Do you really believe that a ComRel member (read: a person whose
>>>> duty
>>>> involves judging other people's behavior) can just take ComRel hat
>>>> off
>>>> and stop caring about providing exemplary behavior?  Following that
>>>> logic, I could join ComRel claiming that all the things I've said
>>>> and done were 'with my comrel hat off' (since I don't have any)!
>>>>
>>>> I understand that there might be a language barrier.  However,
>>>> since you
>>>> decide to perform a very specific and important role, I'm afraid
>>>> you
>>>> need to learn to use English in a way that's actually polite rather
>>>> than
>>>> using the excuse of a language barrier.
>>>>
>>>> Let me explain.
>>>>
>>>> A neutral (i.e. not really polite but acceptable) way of saying
>>>> that
>>>> would be to say 'you have posted the nominations to the wrong
>>>> list'.
>>>> That's plain and factual.
>>>>
>>>> You said 'you violated the rules' which is an
>>>> accusation.  Accusations
>>>> tend to render one as guilty of doing something very
>>>> bad.  Accusations
>>>> are not polite.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore, 'perform your duty properly' is passive
>>>> aggressive.  Adding
>>>> 'please' doesn't make it any more polite -- in fact, given just
>>>> before
>>>> a insulting statement it may have the exact opposite effect.
>>>>
>>>> The polite way of saying that would be to strip the first part
>>>> of the sentence and just say 'please send nominations ...'  In
>>>> fact,
>>>> as you can see the passive aggressive part is completely
>>>> unnecessary to
>>>> convey the meaning, so what's the purpose of adding it besides
>>>> intentionally offending someone?
>>> As a native English speaker I agree with Michał's assessment.
>>>
>> so do I.
>>
>>
>>
> Since, apparently, all native speakers of English are now supposed to
> opine on this, here goes.
>
> As a native speaker of English, I do not agree that mgorny's reply to
> bircoph was warranted. He replied to a statement of fact, and request to
> actually follow published rules by smearing an entire team.
>
> Was bircoph's message the epitome of polite and deferential writing? No.
> Is there any reason that it needed to be? Also no. Was it as bad as
> comments regularly made by mgorny on this and other mailing lists?
> Certainly not, unless you somehow consider being brusque to be worse
> than actively belittling or indeed libelous. Would I have taken issue
> with mgorny's initial reply had he left as only the first sentence and
> resending the nominations to the correct list? No, bircoph's message
> could be taken as being mildly rude and just because mgorny has
> regularly failed to avoid doing the same, and indeed worse, does not
> mean that he cannot ask others to do better. Is there any sensible
> reason to make a fuss over this? Absolutely not, yet here we are with
> yet another tempest in a teapot on the lists.
>
+1