From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1794F138334 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2019 20:46:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D473E08AC; Tue, 9 Apr 2019 20:46:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0D58E08A6 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2019 20:46:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C162652C; Tue, 9 Apr 2019 16:46:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 09 Apr 2019 16:46:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=+yBDJd eqdsJawSWsT1C+VraNVp6sbrXEr4GzQZm9mbM=; b=0MB0UeCDwXruWOWZi2k9TX fn9yVGYbEBbS+zwvtSsQIE5z6ISg2e1OvGbtUy0Dt0FCEC9Ol9JB2s65e2gOYSKe 99HJjGB+LC9ngR2PUfKuwrb8nBuE9v4gC9sb6PyeonNlMNgI7DPY7fpGJoX9abTD mrS/pyhoYiQyXCzlDb4x3yA2F1rsnIp75HzTv1bADM0QyOwMkqJM6x3/YMVmc4+c COlgr+hyrvzodYAvvzkNCVFd7gMMTkXRJ8HdB6KuLKrrQgwtDirlnHhTmlQU2ype 7IP13u7ISSMvzHxy5spzGeGZE7cV7afDumi5qtsXDZGuyu4bVn8hDYekaJA/7n8A == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduuddrudehgdduheegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffggjggtsehgtderof dttdejnecuhfhrohhmpefiohhkthhurhhkucgjuhhkshgvkhcuoehgohhkthhurhhksehg vghnthhoohdrohhrgheqnecukfhppeeivddrvddutddrudduiedrvddtudenucfrrghrrg hmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepghhokhhtuhhrkhesghgvnhhtohhordhorhhgnecuvehluhhs thgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (62-210-116-201.rev.poneytelecom.eu [62.210.116.201]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C7B08E4122; Tue, 9 Apr 2019 16:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] call for agenda items -- council meeting 2019-04-14 To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org, Alec Warner , NP-Hardass References: <20190401032055.GA9497@linux1.home> <4bbfc34f-335f-5521-310a-b66ffd0d9a9a@gentoo.org> <5e30d658-80c8-b608-1505-dc08db3625bf@gentoo.org> From: Gokturk Yuksek Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=gokturk@gentoo.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFY8kMEBEAClkkMsYPgJKv1nYgN/0bWXXnc/0tM1DQj+2QcL+MFN3vPRTUtXysp6x8qx PQ4fnFwho9CMxso8c0w3nw/2DkkMrduIJIm0c2/XlVnIFyw/iFEuJ2kMXUZfhZUi6czqrG30 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h+opvyXxiUODckIGUPaurcG4ZRpHD4/N3T98VVAhU1A7mUP7vWCfsyAfEqihno5m7h2avg7L hQWRcmElkxxkrpXfC9JNWiTSs8ZZGLN1KdLAyfqozKrRGh3o0hpCLH4PH27utk5t5nPcqe9G oR5dTf/pil9/DurzQYGGkvsBtkmYFkj/3iL0Dodz8mtQMxv5NZ0J0lwY8eIMRi4wPXMdwTgE +78/mBdzpxh8Hy47zOvd3JlmOcKf3SNiAp71EgTzZ4dkMjwv2UKIkM3XBOBhZWeqYHBNqt+L nZr0h+nnxTJleBgtuRjPZs8A9H5WjJOXskinN033sQ== Message-ID: Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2019 20:46:00 +0000 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="R874DeE2ElrZrGix5dEpGUIcTy1wX5Q5I" X-Archives-Salt: 09ddfdca-59e4-4838-b6d9-896b1f3802a0 X-Archives-Hash: 1ad21fbceba2fdd1be4a8b51a6da4335 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --R874DeE2ElrZrGix5dEpGUIcTy1wX5Q5I Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="vW3wQEq47OsMrdGDG6uZWGM39pAIkmdF8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Gokturk Yuksek To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org, Alec Warner , NP-Hardass Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] call for agenda items -- council meeting 2019-04-14 References: <20190401032055.GA9497@linux1.home> <4bbfc34f-335f-5521-310a-b66ffd0d9a9a@gentoo.org> <5e30d658-80c8-b608-1505-dc08db3625bf@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: --vW3wQEq47OsMrdGDG6uZWGM39pAIkmdF8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Alec Warner: > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:04 AM NP-Hardass wrot= e: >=20 >> On 4/3/19 8:43 AM, Alec Warner wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:31 AM NP-Hardass >> > wrote: >>> >>> On 3/31/19 11:20 PM, William Hubbs wrote: >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > two weeks from today (2019-04-14) the Gentoo Council will meet = at >>> > 19:00 UTC in the #gentoo-council channel on freenode. >>> > >>> > Please reply to this message with any items you would like us t= o >>> put on >>> > the agenda to discuss or vote on. >>> > >>> > Thanks much, >>> > >>> > William >>> > >>> >>> I'd like the council to discuss the issue and general trend of >> actions >>> (particularly recent) to restrict the ability of developers to >>> contribute to Gentoo. In my view, efforts are being made to make= >>> contributions as users substantially easier, while efforts are be= ing >>> made to make being a developer substantially harder. The months = of >>> studying, quiz taking, and interviews set a bar that should make >>> contributions from those individuals that become developers easie= r >> than >>> the average user, not more difficult. >>> >>> >>> This is a pretty vague statement, are there particular things you wan= t >>> the council to review; or just the 'general trend'? >>> I'm not aware of any recent changes to the developer onboarding proce= ss. >>> >>> -A >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> NP-Hardass >>> >> >> Not just the onboarding, but the retention too. General trend is what= >> I'm proposing should be discussed publicly during the meeting. >> >> Three points: >> >> At present time, everyone needs a "Real Name" to contribute. A user, >> with a new email address, can allege to be "Foo Bar" and contribute >> without impediment, but, as recent proposals would have it, developers= >> would need to show proof of ID over video call to become part of the w= eb >> of trust for committing. That effectively allows any user to remain >> anonymous by using a false name, obviating a huge portion of the alleg= ed >> benefit to requiring names in the first place. So, developers can be >> held to such a high standard that they can either no longer contribute= , >> while we trim eligible pool of new developers and compare that to the >> ease with which any "named" contributor on github or bugzilla can do a= s >> they please. >> >=20 > I think it is reasonable to try to pursue a more inclusive policy where= > identity is more flexible (as I discussed in a different message on thi= s > thread), but keep in mind the Council (and really a few key members) sp= ent > over a year working on the policy we have; so I'm not certain its a tri= vial > change. You are free to dislike the policy we have and you are free to > suggest we pursue a more inclusive policy, but at least here as a trust= ee > who voted for it we made a deliberate choice here and barring some midd= le > ground where we somehow understand that contributions to Gentoo are don= e in > a low-risk way, we will continue to reject commits from obvious > contributors. >=20 > What I refuse to engage in is an incessant debate about the policy we h= ave; > please accept that we made it in good faith to reduce legal risk for th= e > project and, if an alternative is presented that keeps risk low while > accepting a broader set of contributions we will consider it in the sam= e > good faith. >=20 > -A >=20 I don't doubt people's good faith in proposing this policy and I'm sure it's done with the best interest in mind. I apologize for not doing the homework for the following question: did the Foundation pay for any kind of legal counsel on this matter? I think one thing most of us struggle with is that we are not lawyers. It would help to put people's mind at ease if the Foundation consulted a lawyer that clearly explained: - What exactly is the legal liability being addressed here? - Have there been any precedent cases of copyright infringement (constrained to the context of copyrighted ebuilds, or code of similar nature) to make this a more realistic threat for the Foundation? - In the case of a potential court case, how is the liability distributed among involved parties? Would we be legally required to track down the contributor (whose identity we may or may not have confirmed yet)? The reason why I'm suggesting this is because I've talked to a friend of mine, who is a software patent lawyer, about the DCO and GLEP. Their first impression was that the DCO itself has no clause for requiring a legal name, so signing it with a fake name may not violate the DCO itself. So the (informal) conclusion is that as long as nobody sues you for copyright infringement, there is no legal problem with using a fake name to sign the DCO. I know it sounds very obvious but the point is that legal people have a better grip of the situation than we do, and the community is more likely to take their word and justification for it.= >=20 >> We currently have a RFC, just posted two days ago, for developers to b= e >> regularly tested to maintain commit status. Again, if the developer >> feels like it, maybe it is easier for him/her to just become a plain o= ld >> user and submit patches, waiting on the (as I see it, dwindling,) amou= nt >> of active other developers ready to commit instead. >> >> Totally anecdotal, I've seen developers that have fairly decent QA on >> their own commits merge PRs from users without full review and >> introducing a whole host of issues because code from users isn't alway= s >> vetted as thoroughly as ones own work. So, I'd argue, the QA standard= s >> of being a dev don't quite apply to you as stringently once you >> downgrade to being a user... >> >> At the end of the day, holding developers to higher standards than use= rs >> is a given, but it shouldn't be more onerous to be a developer than to= >> be a user contributing. >> >> -- >> NP-Hardass >> >> --vW3wQEq47OsMrdGDG6uZWGM39pAIkmdF8-- --R874DeE2ElrZrGix5dEpGUIcTy1wX5Q5I Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEED14mDxorHtjk0V2IYEuf/bfGVQcFAlytBKMACgkQYEuf/bfG VQeJhwgAqb5P+Cj8D6PcHgO9aWD5qPDETrAjGkAj1oLAqrcMUyXcdQ4SJY6tOBqs RXbVYXMESXZtcDBId0jF92+DVfoCHd7gxOy0Yfcxp9b8EpEsFH8DjoaPptGVVa6L tajM9bkoqSE1HVCPpdfZ4T58pmAUX4dpSixkWQHERhRRLpQ+RT8+j6nAygK9KdD4 i5FvYtG3a7nOByN7SFHpOkeXSMBjNRgpu/W+hl/mqO+zRR+UC/MbhJZiaB8Gr5KC 7Ct4PH4hx4W75ug4ssIw+nhvzCMY9tPaS4zNUGTDrJYmVX/NDM5xBobW1HyHrYqc qiZLrjs4JO4AkGFu8htuZWaCDC4cLA== =xkIx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --R874DeE2ElrZrGix5dEpGUIcTy1wX5Q5I--