[gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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Today I receive notice of a 2 week suspension for the following
comment. Completely after the fact, days later.... This happened on
5/10/2017. Maybe eve on 5/9/2017. Someone is trying to clean up a mess.

https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pull/1721#issuecomment-299942259

Gentoo is an absolutely absurd place these days. Repeatedly taking
action for even the most minor comments. Which is NOT by any means any
sort of CoC violation.

Exactly why I never bothered appealing anything. The past will never be
let go and I will always be sought out for any sort of punishment. No
matter what this says to others outside Gentoo. Which per above
contributors were already being neglected...

Really funny stuff!

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 14:56:03 +0200
From: David Seifert <soap@gentoo.org>
To: wlt-ml@o-sinc.com
Cc: comrel@gentoo.org, infra@gentoo.org, github@gentoo.org
Subject: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo
Github page


Dear William,

Gentoo's Github team has unanimously decided to prevent you from
posting and/or interacting with most projects hosted on Gentoo's Github
page for 2 weeks. This was done in response to your comment

https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pull/1721#issuecomment-300178677

which is not the place to post comments and recount how Gentoo Java is
struggling with its staffing needs at the moment or historically. The
Github page and review functionality are for code-centric feedback and
technical discussions, not about Gentoo-meta issues or the like. We
want to keep the Github page a friendly environment for all non-Gentoo
contributors.

Please also take note of the fact that Gentoo's Github interface is not
part of the official Gentoo workflow, and as such is provided as a
best-effort service by the Github Project. None of this pertains to
your access under the aegis of the Gentoo workflow (Bugzie/ML/etc).

Kind Regards
David
on behalf of the Gentoo Github Team


-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Sergey Popov]

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14.05.2017 17:29, William L. Thomson Jr. пишет:
> Today I receive notice of a 2 week suspension for the following
> comment. Completely after the fact, days later.... This happened on
> 5/10/2017. Maybe eve on 5/9/2017. Someone is trying to clean up a mess.
> 
> https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pull/1721#issuecomment-299942259
> 
> Gentoo is an absolutely absurd place these days. Repeatedly taking
> action for even the most minor comments. Which is NOT by any means any
> sort of CoC violation.
> 
> Exactly why I never bothered appealing anything. The past will never be
> let go and I will always be sought out for any sort of punishment. No
> matter what this says to others outside Gentoo. Which per above
> contributors were already being neglected...

Your comment is full of personal thoughts, most of those have no
technical meaning for resolving pull request that is discussed there.

While i have nothing against expressing anybody's personal opinion,
there are places that are more suitable for that, for example - Gentoo
forum.

Bugzilla and Github are places where technical discussion should
prevail, with organizational stuff beeing minimized as much as
possible(well, maybe except for some non-public areas of Comrel or
Infra, which i am unfamiliar with).

My opinion - your post clearly falls into "Posting/participating only to
incite drama or negativity rather than to tactfully share information.",
maybe next paragraph of our Code of Conduct too.
Not sure, as i said, i have no affiliation with ComRel, so their
position may vary from mine.

-- 
Best regards, Sergey Popov
Gentoo developer
Gentoo Desktop Effects project lead
Gentoo Quality Assurance project lead


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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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I simply explained a situation to a contributor who was neglected for
just under a year.

You can say what ever about my comments. But did anyone else comment?
Has anyone done anything on that PR after I mentioned it on this list
and -dev.

3 Dec 2016
 I even quote the person saying they are looking for a response from
 Gentoo. Yet no one comments...
http://gentoo-project.gentoo.narkive.com/cjjVeuKT/hiding-problems-breach-of-gentoo-social-contract#post32

I just mentioned this in April on -dev
11 Apr 2017 
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/5dc1d6b34e4928386d8bdbd8ffb76c92

I brought this up several times. Yet no one commented. No one spoke to
the contributor. Not even after they were VERY upset did anyone
comment. I commented, and I get blocked as a result.

You all can justify it how ever you like. Gentoo Developers neglected a
contributor and take action against a community member who was just
giving them an explanation....

While an older PR sits.... Also mentioned in both those links....

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 16/05/17 17:07, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> I simply explained a situation to a contributor who was neglected for
> just under a year.
>
> You can say what ever about my comments. But did anyone else comment?
> Has anyone done anything on that PR after I mentioned it on this list
> and -dev.
>
> 3 Dec 2016
>  I even quote the person saying they are looking for a response from
>  Gentoo. Yet no one comments...
> http://gentoo-project.gentoo.narkive.com/cjjVeuKT/hiding-problems-breach-of-gentoo-social-contract#post32
>
> I just mentioned this in April on -dev
> 11 Apr 2017 
> https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/5dc1d6b34e4928386d8bdbd8ffb76c92
>
> I brought this up several times. Yet no one commented. No one spoke to
> the contributor. Not even after they were VERY upset did anyone
> comment. I commented, and I get blocked as a result.
>
> You all can justify it how ever you like. Gentoo Developers neglected a
> contributor and take action against a community member who was just
> giving them an explanation....
>
> While an older PR sits.... Also mentioned in both those links....
>
My 2cents ...

Who actually cares? Seems like the only person who does is *outside* the
Gentoo 'circle' (devs and/or staff) ...

As to who /should/ care is not a matter for discussion here, imho.



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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Dale]

M. J. Everitt wrote:
> On 16/05/17 17:07, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
>> I simply explained a situation to a contributor who was neglected for
>> just under a year.
>>
>> You can say what ever about my comments. But did anyone else comment?
>> Has anyone done anything on that PR after I mentioned it on this list
>> and -dev.
>>
>> 3 Dec 2016
>>  I even quote the person saying they are looking for a response from
>>  Gentoo. Yet no one comments...
>> http://gentoo-project.gentoo.narkive.com/cjjVeuKT/hiding-problems-breach-of-gentoo-social-contract#post32
>>
>> I just mentioned this in April on -dev
>> 11 Apr 2017 
>> https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/5dc1d6b34e4928386d8bdbd8ffb76c92
>>
>> I brought this up several times. Yet no one commented. No one spoke to
>> the contributor. Not even after they were VERY upset did anyone
>> comment. I commented, and I get blocked as a result.
>>
>> You all can justify it how ever you like. Gentoo Developers neglected a
>> contributor and take action against a community member who was just
>> giving them an explanation....
>>
>> While an older PR sits.... Also mentioned in both those links....
>>
> My 2cents ...
>
> Who actually cares? Seems like the only person who does is *outside* the
> Gentoo 'circle' (devs and/or staff) ...
>
> As to who /should/ care is not a matter for discussion here, imho.
>
>

Some of us long term Gentoo users care.  If you and other dev/staff
don't, then maybe that is the problem?? 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Some of us long term Gentoo users care.

If you do care, then about the worst thing you can do is make posts
like this on a mailing list.

Potential Gentoo contributors will read your post and decide to use
some other distro.  Then there are fewer people making improvements to
Gentoo, and thus the distro becomes less useful to you.

This is one of those situations where talking about a problem becomes
a problem...

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 16/05/17 19:01, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Some of us long term Gentoo users care.
> If you do care, then about the worst thing you can do is make posts
> like this on a mailing list.
>
> Potential Gentoo contributors will read your post and decide to use
> some other distro.  Then there are fewer people making improvements to
> Gentoo, and thus the distro becomes less useful to you.
>
> This is one of those situations where talking about a problem becomes
> a problem...
>
However, Rich, not talking about a problem, is quite often a problem in
itself too ...

[beware, potential infinite recursion here... ]


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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Michał Górny]

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On wto, 2017-05-16 at 11:01 -0700, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Some of us long term Gentoo users care.
> 
> If you do care, then about the worst thing you can do is make posts
> like this on a mailing list.
> 
> Potential Gentoo contributors will read your post and decide to use
> some other distro.  Then there are fewer people making improvements to
> Gentoo, and thus the distro becomes less useful to you.
> 
> This is one of those situations where talking about a problem becomes
> a problem...

No. Productive talk about a problem is not a problem. Productive talk
can bring solutions.

What is a problem is using a problem as an excuse to spread FUD,
and once again attempt to extort Gentoo developers into accepting
an insistent ex-developer who refuses to behave, follow policies
and improve his skills.

What is a problem is that neither ComRel nor Council wants to resolve
this situation and they let it span for months all over the place. So
I'm going to even support William's statement that changes are
necessary.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[James Ausmus]

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On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Some of us long term Gentoo users care.
>
> If you do care, then about the worst thing you can do is make posts
> like this on a mailing list.
>
> Potential Gentoo contributors will read your post and decide to use
> some other distro.  Then there are fewer people making improvements to
> Gentoo, and thus the distro becomes less useful to you.
>
> This is one of those situations where talking about a problem becomes
> a problem...

While I certainly understand what you're saying, I think this is a slippery
slope - "Don't talk about our problems, people will notice, we need to
pretend to be perfect!" leads to actual problems festering, going
unresolved, and becoming much larger than they should be. It's also *very*
much not in the spirit of Open Source.

That being said - do you have direction on where issues like these *should*
be discussed, if not on the ML? I'm certainly fine with a "This issue isn't
appropriate for discussion *here*, please take it to ${SOMEWHERE}"
statement. :)

(And no, this is not a statement of opinion one way or the other on the
original topic of this thread - that's not something I feel qualified to
opine upon...)

Thanks!

-James


>
>
> --
> Rich
>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Tue, 16 May 2017 11:19:17 -0700
James Ausmus <james.ausmus@gmail.com> wrote:
> > This is one of those situations where talking about a problem
> > becomes a problem...  
> 
> While I certainly understand what you're saying, I think this is a
> slippery slope - "Don't talk about our problems, people will notice,
> we need to pretend to be perfect!" leads to actual problems
> festering, going unresolved, and becoming much larger than they
> should be. It's also *very* much not in the spirit of Open Source.

It's also against the Social Contract.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On wto, 2017-05-16 at 11:01 -0700, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>
>> This is one of those situations where talking about a problem becomes
>> a problem...
>
> No. Productive talk about a problem is not a problem. Productive talk
> can bring solutions.

Certainly.  But, nobody is offering solutions here.  They're just
pointing at problems, and often those problems have to do with
manpower, where simply pointing at them doesn't accomplish much.

>
> What is a problem is that neither ComRel nor Council wants to resolve
> this situation and they let it span for months all over the place. So
> I'm going to even support William's statement that changes are
> necessary.
>

++

There seems to be some interest in bringing back the proctors, which I
personally think is a good idea.  I wouldn't mind giving the devs some
kind of direct say in how we approach this stuff as it is fairly
controversial.  However, I think that right now the situation is just
frustrating everybody.

I think part of the reason that nobody wants to fix these issues is
because people also don't like dealing with the backlash.  Whoever
suggests that xyz should be booted or that list traffic be moderated
is going to be reviled by many.  So, everybody just ignores the issue.
It isn't like Comrel is getting paid...

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Ciaran McCreesh
<ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 16 May 2017 11:19:17 -0700
> James Ausmus <james.ausmus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > This is one of those situations where talking about a problem
>> > becomes a problem...
>>
>> While I certainly understand what you're saying, I think this is a
>> slippery slope - "Don't talk about our problems, people will notice,
>> we need to pretend to be perfect!" leads to actual problems
>> festering, going unresolved, and becoming much larger than they
>> should be. It's also *very* much not in the spirit of Open Source.
>
> It's also against the Social Contract.
>

Note that I never said that people shouldn't be allowed to talk about
problems.  I merely said that doing so in this case is probably
contrary to their own interests.

And I'm talking about these nebulous "not enough people are working on
the stuff I want them to work on for free" problems.  If nobody is
fixing a bug it is because nobody cares enough to fix it.  There
probably isn't a single pull request in github that wouldn't be fixed
in 30 seconds if some user offered a million dollar bounty for it.
I'm not saying that anybody has a duty to do this.  Rather, we're all
getting what we collectively pay for, or contribute to.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Dale]

Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Some of us long term Gentoo users care.
> If you do care, then about the worst thing you can do is make posts
> like this on a mailing list.
>
> Potential Gentoo contributors will read your post and decide to use
> some other distro.  Then there are fewer people making improvements to
> Gentoo, and thus the distro becomes less useful to you.
>
> This is one of those situations where talking about a problem becomes
> a problem...
>

So, pointing out that people care is now considered a bad thing?  Is
ignoring the problem and letting it go on for years a good thing? 

Rest is my general opinion on things.

I've used Gentoo for well over a decade.  I installed from a 1.4 CD.  I
think that was back in 2003.  At one point, I thought about becoming a
developer to help Gentoo way back in about 2004.  I even subscribed to
-dev for a while, to help me learn some things.  Thing is, it is what is
going on right now and things like it that kept me from doing it.  Given
that this sort of problem has yet to change, I'm still not interested. 
I'm disabled, I have time to help.  That's not what stops me.  What
stops me, is seeing someone who wants to help get shut down by others
just because they don't like him and in my opinion, targets him whenever
possible.  Especially after telling people who don't code or are not
willing to write code to stay out of the process.  Someone comes along
that is able, willing and wanting to help, only to push him away.  Then
when someone else puts in a lot of work, gets ignored and someone posts
what is basically the truth, he gets shut down. 

So, it's not posts like Williams or mine that is the problem.  The
problem is that the people that should be fixing things, or allowing
those who can to fix them to help or wanting their help at all.  The
problem with running people off was around long ago and it is still
around.  I'm pretty sure it predates William.  It even predates me. 

When I'm around someone who knows Linux and we are talking about it, I
try not to mention I use Gentoo.  While it is a good OS, it has a bad
reputation as far as staff and such goes.  It has been that way a long
time.  I know because when I do mention Gentoo, I hear all about it. 
Stopping people from posting about it is not helping.  People already
know about it.  To try and blame one or two people posting that they
care about Gentoo and some things need to change, that is the problem. 
Sure, some may not have the best way to say it but saying it sometimes
needs to be done. 

I skimmed that link the other day that started this.  If I had seen that
other person trying to figure out what was going on after all the work
he/she did, I would likely have said something if I had any information
that would help the other person.  Given what I've read, my post may
have been shorter but it would contain pretty much the same info.  I've
read working with java and, really anything, is difficult work.  Some
are harder than others but from what I've read, java is difficult.  For
someone to put in the effort and then get ignored, THAT says a lot about
Gentoo.  Anyone that is/was interested in helping in the java area can
see that the person was ignored whether William posted about it or not. 
The problem in my opinion is not Williams post, it was ignoring the
other person who put in all that effort. 

By the way, anyone think that person is going to put in that much work
for Gentoo again after it ended the way it did?  If I were him/her, I
wouldn't.  I'd rather blow the dust out of my rig, pick okra in my
garden or watch the grass grow.   It's sad that people say they don't
have the manpower to do things and then do things that run off the
manpower they complain about not having. 

What I wish, instead of putting in all this effort to try to moderate
mailing lists, why not fix the problem so that it isn't needed?  Why not
let those who want to help, help.  It's like spending time targeting
people and anything negative about Gentoo is more important than
actually working on the things he has pointed out which are real
problems.  If the negatives of Gentoo were fixed, nothing negative would
need to be said, by anyone. 

Do I think this will change anything, not likely but I can hope.  It's
been going on for over a decade.  I suspect the mailing list moderation
will start and then more people will step away or just not join.  To be
honest, I don't think Gentoo has the manpower to moderate it short
term.  Long term Gentoo will, people will just stop posting at all and
move on to something else. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> What stops me, is seeing someone who wants to help get shut down by others
> just because they don't like him and in my opinion, targets him whenever
> possible.

You're making assumptions about motives.  The fact is that you don't
have any knowledge about why some people aren't welcome in the
community.

I'm not aware of anybody who is unwelcome to contribute to Gentoo
merely because people don't like them.  I certainly don't have
knowledge of every particular case, so perhaps there have been cases
where this is the case.

However, part of the problem is that you're allowed to make
allegations like this on the lists, and anybody who has direct
knowledge to the contrary in any particular situation is not allowed
to say so.  So, when we allow these sorts of things to be discussed on
the lists anybody reading the archives will inevitably get the
impression that Gentoo boots people out for arbitrary reasons.

> Why not let those who want to help, help.

Here is a completely contrived example (to avoid talking about
specific individuals) of why this doesn't work:

Suppose for the sake of argument that somebody was using
dev.gentoo.org as a platform to hack into various servers on the
internet.  This is discovered, and their access is revoked and they're
no longer permitted to access any Gentoo-controlled systems.  No
public announcement is made of the incident or that the person is
banned or why.

Then that individual tries to post a pull request/etc and participate
in the community and complains that their accounts keep getting shut
down/etc.  They say that they're being unfairly persecuted because
somebody has a personal grudge against them.

Policy at Gentoo right now is to not deny their accusation at all.
So, now we have everybody up in arms about people being oppressed,
when the person they're defending is in fact a criminal and Gentoo
could be subject to legal liability if they were to knowingly give
this person access to our resources and they were used as a platform
to launch some future attack against somebody.

Sometimes people do things that are seriously wrong, and choosing to
allow them to participate could cause problems.  However, we also
can't talk about why they're gone because that creates debates about
the accuracy of allegations and possibly opens us up to lawsuits as
well if we get any of the facts wrong.  This is why every organization
I'm familiar with doesn't handle these sorts of issues publicly.

Again, nothing in this email should be construed to imply that any
particular individual has done anything particularly wrong.

> So, pointing out that people care is now considered a bad thing?

I didn't say that it was "bad."  I merely pointed out that people
constantly talking about how terrible Gentoo is probably will probably
be a self-fulfilling prophesy.  Bad PR, whether true or not, tends to
result in damaged reputation.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Tue, 16 May 2017 12:09:47 -0700
Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

> If nobody is  fixing a bug it is because nobody cares enough to fix
> it. 

Not true! Some care, but others stand in the way.  Many things would be
otherwise if those who do not care, would stop bothering and getting
in the way of those who do care. It is that simple!

The Domino effect....

One person cares, others see, so more care as a result.
One person does NOT care, other see, so more do NOT care as a result.

It just takes 1 domino to drop to start the chain reaction. Yet for
years people just say there is no one to do the work. When that is NOT
the case. How does blocking and running off the few who care do the
work help to fix problems, bugs, etc. Much less draw in others to
do the same. That says to others, WE do not care. Thus we run off those
who do care and will do the work.

Do something! Lead follow or GET OUT OF THE WAY!!!!

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Tue, 16 May 2017 13:14:47 -0700
Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> I'm not aware of anybody who is unwelcome to contribute to Gentoo
> merely because people don't like them.  I certainly don't have
> knowledge of every particular case, so perhaps there have been cases
> where this is the case.

Your not aware of me? Most can see there is a clear bias, not to
mention double standard. I think most can tell I am not liked. Thus I
am routinely sought out. Likely worse if I was a developer again and
more could be done to punish....

I seriously doubt anyone thinks any Gentoo Developer actually likes me.

> However, part of the problem is that you're allowed to make
> allegations like this on the lists, and anybody who has direct
> knowledge to the contrary in any particular situation is not allowed
> to say so.  So, when we allow these sorts of things to be discussed on
> the lists anybody reading the archives will inevitably get the
> impression that Gentoo boots people out for arbitrary reasons.

That is a widely know fact. If people inside Gentoo think otherwise.
They may need to take a look outside the bubble. A simple Google search
would show facts otherwise.

> Sometimes people do things that are seriously wrong, and choosing to
> allow them to participate could cause problems. 

That statement applies to much of Comrel and SEVERAL Gentoo
developers... They are seriously in the wrong on so many levels. They
are causing these problems. Not outsiders....

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Dale]

Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> What stops me, is seeing someone who wants to help get shut down by others
>> just because they don't like him and in my opinion, targets him whenever
>> possible.
> You're making assumptions about motives.  The fact is that you don't
> have any knowledge about why some people aren't welcome in the
> community.

Actually, I'm basing it on what I can clearly see.  If I can see it,
don't you think others can too?  Again, ignoring it, trying to force
people not to talk about it, doesn't help the problem.  Like I said, I
been around Gentoo for a long time.  I won't be a dev because of lots of
things over the years I've seen happen, most of them in public.  Just
because I rarely post, doesn't mean I don't see it.  I have emails from
this list going back to 2007, -dev to 2009.  Some of the others may even
go back further.  I read a lot of them too.  I used to have them further
back than that.

>
> I'm not aware of anybody who is unwelcome to contribute to Gentoo
> merely because people don't like them.  I certainly don't have
> knowledge of every particular case, so perhaps there have been cases
> where this is the case.
>
> However, part of the problem is that you're allowed to make
> allegations like this on the lists, and anybody who has direct
> knowledge to the contrary in any particular situation is not allowed
> to say so.  So, when we allow these sorts of things to be discussed on
> the lists anybody reading the archives will inevitably get the
> impression that Gentoo boots people out for arbitrary reasons.
>

Based on recent events, I think I can name one for sure.  I might add,
it's not the first time I've seen this happen either.  I just usually
don't post about it. 


>> Why not let those who want to help, help.
> Here is a completely contrived example (to avoid talking about
> specific individuals) of why this doesn't work:
>
> Suppose for the sake of argument that somebody was using
> dev.gentoo.org as a platform to hack into various servers on the
> internet.  This is discovered, and their access is revoked and they're
> no longer permitted to access any Gentoo-controlled systems.  No
> public announcement is made of the incident or that the person is
> banned or why.
>
> Then that individual tries to post a pull request/etc and participate
> in the community and complains that their accounts keep getting shut
> down/etc.  They say that they're being unfairly persecuted because
> somebody has a personal grudge against them.
>
> Policy at Gentoo right now is to not deny their accusation at all.
> So, now we have everybody up in arms about people being oppressed,
> when the person they're defending is in fact a criminal and Gentoo
> could be subject to legal liability if they were to knowingly give
> this person access to our resources and they were used as a platform
> to launch some future attack against somebody.
>
> Sometimes people do things that are seriously wrong, and choosing to
> allow them to participate could cause problems.  However, we also
> can't talk about why they're gone because that creates debates about
> the accuracy of allegations and possibly opens us up to lawsuits as
> well if we get any of the facts wrong.  This is why every organization
> I'm familiar with doesn't handle these sorts of issues publicly.
>
> Again, nothing in this email should be construed to imply that any
> particular individual has done anything particularly wrong.
>

To quote Dr. Phil, how's that working our for you or Gentoo?  Basically
what you are saying is, you won't share what went on even when most if
not all of it is public?  I've read a LOT of Williams posts.  So far, I
haven't seen him post about a problem that I haven't already seen as well. 

Question.  Some group/company wants to switch to Gentoo.  They even plan
to bring some people who can code with them to help.  They go look to
see what Gentoo offers and what versions of packages are ready for use. 
They see that some key packages are out of date and would require a lot
of work up front to get them ready, even if done on a local basis.  Do
you really think they are going to look for reasons they are not up to
date?  You think that group/company is going to be switching when they
can't even have up to date packages ready to work?  Not likely.  Even if
they don't look at any mailing list posts, all they have to do is look
at the tree to see that Gentoo doesn't offer what they need.  Someone
posting that java or some other packages is short on manpower isn't the
end of the world when anyone who cares to look can go to the tree and
see for themselves, Gentoo is short on manpower because that stuff is
old.  Unless Gentoo is planning to hide the tree so people can't see
what is not up to date, people can see the status for themselves if they
look. Heck, I go look at packages.g.o myself quite often. 


>> So, pointing out that people care is now considered a bad thing?
> I didn't say that it was "bad."  I merely pointed out that people
> constantly talking about how terrible Gentoo is probably will probably
> be a self-fulfilling prophesy.  Bad PR, whether true or not, tends to
> result in damaged reputation.
>

As I said, people already know.  If I mention to someone that I use
Gentoo, they tell me all the things they heard about Gentoo.  I might
add, what William has pointed out isn't even bad compared to what is out
there.  That self-fulfilling prophecy is already filling itself because
the problems go on for years with no one changing anything and pushing
away or ignoring those who want to help.  My post isn't all about
William.  It was also about the person that put in all that effort only
to be ignored for it.  I can't help but notice you snipped that part. 
Odd thing is, that is a important part of it.  The William situation is
bad enough.  You say it is something that I don't know about.  Fine,
what about the other person that put in all that effort only to get
ignored, until William was good enough to post what the problem is and
then be punished for it?  The part about William isn't just what
happened years ago.  Most of it is about what happened a few days ago. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What stops me, is seeing someone who wants to help get shut down by others
>>> just because they don't like him and in my opinion, targets him whenever
>>> possible.
>> You're making assumptions about motives.  The fact is that you don't
>> have any knowledge about why some people aren't welcome in the
>> community.
>
> Actually, I'm basing it on what I can clearly see.

That is the problem.  You probably didn't witness the stuff that has
gotten people booted.  Hence you're on a crusade to defend the
innocent.

Do you think that anybody really enjoys going through all this
headache just to boot somebody?  That's why most code of conduct
violations end up being ignored.

I challenge you to actually get yourself banned around here.  It
probably wouldn't even occur to you what you'd have to do to
accomplish this.  Why do you think we let countless people complain
about this stuff on the lists without just suppressing it?

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Dale]

Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Rich Freeman wrote:
>>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> What stops me, is seeing someone who wants to help get shut down by others
>>>> just because they don't like him and in my opinion, targets him whenever
>>>> possible.
>>> You're making assumptions about motives.  The fact is that you don't
>>> have any knowledge about why some people aren't welcome in the
>>> community.
>> Actually, I'm basing it on what I can clearly see.
> That is the problem.  You probably didn't witness the stuff that has
> gotten people booted.  Hence you're on a crusade to defend the
> innocent.
>
> Do you think that anybody really enjoys going through all this
> headache just to boot somebody?  That's why most code of conduct
> violations end up being ignored.
>
> I challenge you to actually get yourself banned around here.  It
> probably wouldn't even occur to you what you'd have to do to
> accomplish this.  Why do you think we let countless people complain
> about this stuff on the lists without just suppressing it?
>

So, I didn't go read the post William made that got him booted off
github?  I read the post that was linked to and skimmed the rest of it. 
According to the email that William forwarded that he got from comrel,
the message that started this thread, that post is why he was booted off
github.  What is it that I'm not seeing in that post?  Is there a part
of that post that is only visible to you and comrel? 

As I said, my point isn't just or even mostly about years ago or just
William, it is about a few days or so ago and even before that when the
other person was ignored..  William was booted for something I would
have done myself if I was active there and saw it.  Would that get me
booted too?  If not, why did it get William booted?  If it would, then
why did the other person who got ignored and was unhappy not booted
too?  Or was he also booted for not being happy with being ignored?  The
last post he made was this:  "I'm incredibly disappointed in the Gentoo
Java team."  That was before William made his post.  That person is
already disappointed with Gentoo and the java team.  William is too.  Is
it fair to boot one and not the other??  Neither post was positive for
Gentoo.  I'd translate the last part to 'I'm done with Gentoo'.  If I'm
seeing his account correctly, he hasn't been active since his last
post.  I'm not a github guru tho.

As I posted before, you seem to ignore the recent problem by trying to
bring up the past and focusing on that.  Let what happened years ago go
for the moment.  What about what happened in the past week or so?  That
part that I am seeing.

Also, what about the person that was ignored?  What was he guilty of? 
Why am I bringing him up if I'm on some sort of "crusade"?  Shouldn't
someone have had the common courtesy to post something there since it
seems William's post wasn't liked?  I didn't see anyone else that posted
any details of why it ended the way it did.  That is another problem I
was trying to address which seems to want to be ignored.  Sort of a
common theme on that.  No wonder people are not banging the Gentoo doors
down to help.  Put in all that effort only to be ignored?  Yea, that
wins them over. 

I see a theme here.  Gentoo has had a few problems for quite a while. 
Based on what I've read over the past few months and certainly the past
few days, I don't see that changing anytime soon.  10 years from now, it
will be the same. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Matthias Maier]

> I see a theme here.  Gentoo has had a few problems for quite a while. 
> Based on what I've read over the past few months and certainly the past
> few days, I don't see that changing anytime soon.  10 years from now, it
> will be the same. 
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-) 

Yes, we have a problem.
We have too many non-developers trolling our core mailing lists.

Best,
Matthias

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Kent Fredric]

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On Tue, 16 May 2017 22:52:46 -0500
Matthias Maier <tamiko@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Yes, we have a problem.
> We have too many non-developers trolling our core mailing lists.

I hope nobody over-reads this into thinking this is about them.

That'd be tragic and I'd have to play a terrible Carly Simon song.

( Fun thing, we also have too many people in general, both developers
and not, with an extreme shortages of social skills. But welcome to
opensource, you have to find a way to sit back and eat popcorn or
you'll cry )

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Dale]

Matthias Maier wrote:
>> I see a theme here.  Gentoo has had a few problems for quite a while. 
>> Based on what I've read over the past few months and certainly the past
>> few days, I don't see that changing anytime soon.  10 years from now, it
>> will be the same. 
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-) 
> Yes, we have a problem.
> We have too many non-developers trolling our core mailing lists.
>
> Best,
> Matthias
>
>

I'm not trolling.  I'm asking questions and giving ideas on some things
that could be done better and making personal observations to back up my
thinking.  If that is considered trolling then what is a
developer/staff/etc called when he ignores suggestions or questions from
others who care about Gentoo and would like to see it improve?  From the
Gentoo page:

"What is trolling? You are deemed to be trolling if you make comments
intended to provoke an angry response from others."

I'm not trying to provoke a angry response.  I'm trying to get answers,
provide some suggestions and discuss problems.  None of my posts fits
into what you claim. 

See, this is part of the problem that has gone on for years.  If anyone
asks questions that can not be ignored, they get called names which is a
personal insult.  Again, from the Gentoo page:

"Unacceptable behaviour"

"Being judgmental, mean-spirited or insulting."

To call me a troll when I am only trying to get answers and provide
suggestions, that violates the code of conduct.  The sad thing is, you
did it with a .gentoo.org account which makes it a official email.  So,
now we have a official Gentoo person posting that a long term, LONG
term, user is a troll when they don't fit Gentoo's own description of a
troll. 

Do you really want to stick with your comment?  To be honest, you may
want to think about what you just did. 

I want to discuss problems, work for solutions and try to make Gentoo
better.  I'm not attacking, trolling or calling anyone else bad names or
anything of the sort. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Kent Fredric]

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On Tue, 16 May 2017 23:20:45 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not trolling.  I'm asking questions and giving ideas on some
> things that could be done better and making personal observations to
> back up my thinking. 

Yeah ... this .... is what I was afraid would happen :)

But its been a popular "technique" I've seen since ~2012 wherein people
who find other people who they can't reach an agreement with are deemed
"trolls", not because they *are* trolls, but because one of the parties
gets so emotionally frustrated by the arguments presented, that they
perceive the stubborn refusal to "see things my way" to be a deliberate
attempt at causing chaos ;)

I mean, "they disagree with me, I'm the fountain of knowledge on this
planet and I can never be wrong, so they must know this, and are
disagreeing with me just to make me unhappy"

Orrr something like that :)

I've taken to countering by assuming when somebody calls me a troll,
that they're saying "you're right, because I don't have the patience to
prove you wrong". ( Its probably a little disingenuous, but no more
than calling everyone you disagree with a troll )

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Michał Górny]

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On wto, 2017-05-16 at 17:17 -0500, Dale wrote:
> Rich Freeman wrote:
> > On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > What stops me, is seeing someone who wants to help get shut down by others
> > > just because they don't like him and in my opinion, targets him whenever
> > > possible.
> > 
> > You're making assumptions about motives.  The fact is that you don't
> > have any knowledge about why some people aren't welcome in the
> > community.
> 
> Actually, I'm basing it on what I can clearly see.  If I can see it,
> don't you think others can too?  Again, ignoring it, trying to force
> people not to talk about it, doesn't help the problem.  Like I said, I
> been around Gentoo for a long time.  I won't be a dev because of lots of
> things over the years I've seen happen, most of them in public.

No. You won't become a dev because you are not doing *anything* but
talking. Just like a number of other people on this mailing list who are
rejected because of lack of willingness to do anything useful, and then
they claim that they reject Gentoo because it is so bad.

Just FYI because I'm getting tired of this recurring theme.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Dale]

Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Tue, 16 May 2017 23:20:45 -0500
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm not trolling.  I'm asking questions and giving ideas on some
>> things that could be done better and making personal observations to
>> back up my thinking. 
> Yeah ... this .... is what I was afraid would happen :)
>
> But its been a popular "technique" I've seen since ~2012 wherein people
> who find other people who they can't reach an agreement with are deemed
> "trolls", not because they *are* trolls, but because one of the parties
> gets so emotionally frustrated by the arguments presented, that they
> perceive the stubborn refusal to "see things my way" to be a deliberate
> attempt at causing chaos ;)
>
> I mean, "they disagree with me, I'm the fountain of knowledge on this
> planet and I can never be wrong, so they must know this, and are
> disagreeing with me just to make me unhappy"
>
> Orrr something like that :)
>
> I've taken to countering by assuming when somebody calls me a troll,
> that they're saying "you're right, because I don't have the patience to
> prove you wrong". ( Its probably a little disingenuous, but no more
> than calling everyone you disagree with a troll )


If you or Matthias would like to join in and discuss this issue, I'd be
more than willing to do so with you both and Rich.  I use Gentoo and I
like it.  It is rare that I post on lists like -project BUT, when I do,
it is because I'm trying to help.  I'm not active generally on anything
outside -user but when I see something that needs discussing, especially
when a non-developer might could offer a new/different perspective, then
I engage.  I'm not trying to put anyone in a bad position, including
Rich who I've conversed with on -user.

It's not that we disagree, it's that I get the impression that some
don't see the problem or just think ignoring it will help fix it.  The
biggest thing that bothers me on this, the person who put in all that
effort and didn't accomplish anything.  It wasn't because he did
anything incorrectly, didn't work with others or follow the process to
get the work done.  It's because Gentoo couldn't even accept the help
someone was offering and that Gentoo needs more of in the future.  Then
on top of that, he was disappointed and basically left hanging out in
the breeze with little explanation.  All that before anyone posted
anything else.  Then on top of that, when someone does post a
explanation, they get into trouble.  It was handled badly and then it
went downhill from there.  The second part that bothers me, someone
trying to give some truthful information getting punished as if lying
would be a better option or just ignoring the other person further would
help make it better. 

The point I would like to see in a reply is that something should have
been done differently.  Someone should be involved that can post a
response, since no one liked Williams, that explains the situation and
why all that work would not get to where it was intended to go, which
would be the portage tree it seems.  I would hope that whoever does that
can do it in a way that doesn't lead to a person being "incredibly
disappointed" and most likely not wanting to be involved with Gentoo in
the future.  I suspect that would be a rather large task on the last
part.  It is possible and certainly trying is better than ignoring the
person.

For all the talk of needing more people, well, Gentoo has likely lost a
future person.  Maybe it can be corrected but if nothing changes, then
it won't be corrected and regretfully, it will likely happen again. 
Posting about this and trying to find a solution is not the problem. 
Changing something in the process so that it doesn't happen again and
lead to someone else being handled the same way, that does help and
could lead to a much better outcome.  Hopefully, it would leave a person
willing to help again in the future.  We may never know what was just
lost for the future of Gentoo.  What say we recognize the problem and
try to change something to make it work better? 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Dale]

Michał Górny wrote:
> On wto, 2017-05-16 at 17:17 -0500, Dale wrote:
>> Rich Freeman wrote:
>>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> What stops me, is seeing someone who wants to help get shut down by others
>>>> just because they don't like him and in my opinion, targets him whenever
>>>> possible.
>>> You're making assumptions about motives.  The fact is that you don't
>>> have any knowledge about why some people aren't welcome in the
>>> community.
>> Actually, I'm basing it on what I can clearly see.  If I can see it,
>> don't you think others can too?  Again, ignoring it, trying to force
>> people not to talk about it, doesn't help the problem.  Like I said, I
>> been around Gentoo for a long time.  I won't be a dev because of lots of
>> things over the years I've seen happen, most of them in public.
> No. You won't become a dev because you are not doing *anything* but
> talking. Just like a number of other people on this mailing list who are
> rejected because of lack of willingness to do anything useful, and then
> they claim that they reject Gentoo because it is so bad.
>
> Just FYI because I'm getting tired of this recurring theme.
>

So you are ignoring some of the possible solutions and changes I
included in my other posts?  That is called doing something and I might
add, is more than most others are doing.  Most others seem to want to
ignore the problems for a while longer.  Then wonder why people keep
talking about it. 

Do you have any solutions you would like to post?  Or do you just want
to ignore that someone just posted that they are "incredibly
disappointed in the Gentoo Java team."?   How many more need to post
something like that before you actually post something that will help
solve the problem?  Let's hear your ideas on a solution. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Michał Górny]

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On śro, 2017-05-17 at 01:54 -0500, Dale wrote:
> Michał Górny wrote:
> > On wto, 2017-05-16 at 17:17 -0500, Dale wrote:
> > > Rich Freeman wrote:
> > > > On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > What stops me, is seeing someone who wants to help get shut down by others
> > > > > just because they don't like him and in my opinion, targets him whenever
> > > > > possible.
> > > > 
> > > > You're making assumptions about motives.  The fact is that you don't
> > > > have any knowledge about why some people aren't welcome in the
> > > > community.
> > > 
> > > Actually, I'm basing it on what I can clearly see.  If I can see it,
> > > don't you think others can too?  Again, ignoring it, trying to force
> > > people not to talk about it, doesn't help the problem.  Like I said, I
> > > been around Gentoo for a long time.  I won't be a dev because of lots of
> > > things over the years I've seen happen, most of them in public.
> > 
> > No. You won't become a dev because you are not doing *anything* but
> > talking. Just like a number of other people on this mailing list who are
> > rejected because of lack of willingness to do anything useful, and then
> > they claim that they reject Gentoo because it is so bad.
> > 
> > Just FYI because I'm getting tired of this recurring theme.
> > 
> 
> So you are ignoring some of the possible solutions and changes I
> included in my other posts?  That is called doing something and I might
> add, is more than most others are doing.  Most others seem to want to
> ignore the problems for a while longer.  Then wonder why people keep
> talking about it. 

No, I am ignoring most of your posts because I do not have time to read
them. Those parts which I've read are long and talk of nothing. As far
as I'm concerned, your contributions are 90% wasting others' time on
reading what you wrote.

Before you start solving problems in Gentoo, focus on problems with
yourself.

> Do you have any solutions you would like to post?  Or do you just want
> to ignore that someone just posted that they are "incredibly
> disappointed in the Gentoo Java team."?   How many more need to post
> something like that before you actually post something that will help
> solve the problem?  Let's hear your ideas on a solution. 

One good solution would be to kick most of the non-developers out of
this mailing list, so that discussion can focus back on Gentoo, and not
on self-pity of one ex-dev diverted so any times that I have no idea
what the topic is anymore. Last I read, it's about who is trolling who,
and why trolling is good as long as you pretend it's important.

Then maybe people will have time to work on Gentoo rather than be
distracted by useless spam. Then maybe they will be able to accept
contributions.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Dale]

Michał Górny wrote:
> On śro, 2017-05-17 at 01:54 -0500, Dale wrote:
>> Michał Górny wrote:
>>> On wto, 2017-05-16 at 17:17 -0500, Dale wrote:
>>>> Rich Freeman wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> What stops me, is seeing someone who wants to help get shut down by others
>>>>>> just because they don't like him and in my opinion, targets him whenever
>>>>>> possible.
>>>>> You're making assumptions about motives.  The fact is that you don't
>>>>> have any knowledge about why some people aren't welcome in the
>>>>> community.
>>>> Actually, I'm basing it on what I can clearly see.  If I can see it,
>>>> don't you think others can too?  Again, ignoring it, trying to force
>>>> people not to talk about it, doesn't help the problem.  Like I said, I
>>>> been around Gentoo for a long time.  I won't be a dev because of lots of
>>>> things over the years I've seen happen, most of them in public.
>>> No. You won't become a dev because you are not doing *anything* but
>>> talking. Just like a number of other people on this mailing list who are
>>> rejected because of lack of willingness to do anything useful, and then
>>> they claim that they reject Gentoo because it is so bad.
>>>
>>> Just FYI because I'm getting tired of this recurring theme.
>>>
>> So you are ignoring some of the possible solutions and changes I
>> included in my other posts?  That is called doing something and I might
>> add, is more than most others are doing.  Most others seem to want to
>> ignore the problems for a while longer.  Then wonder why people keep
>> talking about it. 
> No, I am ignoring most of your posts because I do not have time to read
> them. Those parts which I've read are long and talk of nothing. As far
> as I'm concerned, your contributions are 90% wasting others' time on
> reading what you wrote.
>
> Before you start solving problems in Gentoo, focus on problems with
> yourself.
>

Maybe you should take your own??  Since you ignore most of my posts, no
wonder you don't see the information I'm providing.  You have to read
them to see it.  If you don't want to read them, why are you commenting
on them?  If I'm not going to bother to read your posts, I'm not going
to comment on it either.  I read yours.  Try reading mine or not
commenting thinking you know what is in it when you don't.   So far,
your posts bring 100% nothing to the table.  Your post is a 100% waste
of time.  Maybe you need to work on that and actually discuss the topic
instead?


>> Do you have any solutions you would like to post?  Or do you just want
>> to ignore that someone just posted that they are "incredibly
>> disappointed in the Gentoo Java team."?   How many more need to post
>> something like that before you actually post something that will help
>> solve the problem?  Let's hear your ideas on a solution. 
> One good solution would be to kick most of the non-developers out of
> this mailing list, so that discussion can focus back on Gentoo, and not
> on self-pity of one ex-dev diverted so any times that I have no idea
> what the topic is anymore. Last I read, it's about who is trolling who,
> and why trolling is good as long as you pretend it's important.
>
> Then maybe people will have time to work on Gentoo rather than be
> distracted by useless spam. Then maybe they will be able to accept
> contributions.
>

Just so you know, since you admit you don't read most of my posts, I am
talking about Gentoo in each and every post.  Maybe you should try
reading them before talking about what they are about since you have no
clue. 

My posts do not meet the definition of trolling.  Yours on the other
hand, just might.  You seem to be trying to get a response from me but
you will be sadly disappointed.  You won't get me to post something that
breaks the rules.  You can push it if you want but it won't get you
anywhere.  It might get attention that you would rather avoid tho. 
Others may tolerate it but this one might not. 

Since you mention spam.  Your post brings absolutely nothing to the
topic.  All it does is try to shut down meaningful discussion between
myself and a couple others even if you don't like the topic.  I might
add, a ex-dev is not the only topic.  If you would bother to read first,
you would know that.  This is also about a person who put months of
effort into java only to be ignored and that work not accomplishing
anything for that person.  It also left a bad impression on that person
given the way it was mishandled.   That has nothing to do with a ex-dev. 

When you are ready to read my posts and have a reasonable discussion,
post and let me know.  In the meantime, I don't need nor care to hear
your attitude.  If you don't want to read my posts or have a meaningful
exchange, ignore my posts in the future. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Kent Fredric]

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On Wed, 17 May 2017 01:54:32 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> So you are ignoring some of the possible solutions and changes I
> included in my other posts? 

There's seldom any kind of useful change that happens on the ml.

I mean, we discuss the sorts of changes we want to make some of the time,
but ... well, real changes often look like git commits / patches.

Having ideas is the easy part, making it work, much harder.

But I may have overlooked something, feel free to correct me.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Kent Fredric]

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On Wed, 17 May 2017 01:42:23 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's not that we disagree, it's that I get the impression that some
> don't see the problem or just think ignoring it will help fix it.  The
> biggest thing that bothers me on this, the person who put in all that
> effort and didn't accomplish anything.  It wasn't because he did
> anything incorrectly, didn't work with others or follow the process to
> get the work done. 

Yeah, I mean, sometimes its complicated because its not safe to just
let outsiders to whatever, but there's nobody capable of reviewing
their changes.... or something like that.

What also doesn't help is getting lots of lengthy meta-discsussion
around a problem instead of clear negotiation of what has to happen.

But lets not blame past interactions on the result of future ones.

Lets just concede things were sub-optimal in the past and strive to do
better, because its not like we have time machines.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Dale]

Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Wed, 17 May 2017 01:54:32 -0500
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So you are ignoring some of the possible solutions and changes I
>> included in my other posts? 
> There's seldom any kind of useful change that happens on the ml.
>
> I mean, we discuss the sorts of changes we want to make some of the time,
> but ... well, real changes often look like git commits / patches.
>
> Having ideas is the easy part, making it work, much harder.
>
> But I may have overlooked something, feel free to correct me.

I had some ideas in the next to last paragraph of my other reply, which
I'm not going to reply to unless you reply there.   That had a idea on
how to do things in a better way.  First thing tho, some need to stop
ignoring the problem.  If ignoring it was going to fix it, then it
should have fixed it long ago.  A few need to try to discuss the problem
and those solutions offered instead of trying to shut down anything on
the topic.  It's not like people outside Gentoo don't already know about
some of the Gentoo issues. 

I believe that if people wanted to, this could be improved.  Thing is,
doing the same thing for years is not fixing it.  There are a lot of
good people who do try, Rich is one of them, but it needs to be talked
about honestly and have more than one person trying to come up with
solutions.  Someone else may read my idea and then add something to it
and make Gentoo a whole lot better.  That in turn could improve other
things as well.  I'm at least trying to start a discussion and get what
this is about in the open. 

When I'm on -user, I sometimes try to help people even if it is nothing
more than googling for a answer.  As we know, doing google searches from
different places gives different results at times.  Even if the person
needing help did a google search but came up empty, that doesn't mean I
will get the same results.  The point is, we need to be trying to help
each other, devs or not.  I actually like that Rich is on -user and he
does help when he can.  To have a dev do that, it does change the list a
bit.  It's a positive thing. 

Still, I'm open to trying to work out something that a dev or other
person can take and try to improve Gentoo.  It's going to require
someone willing to listen and discuss it first tho.  If not, this sort
of thing will happen again until it is dealt with. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Kent Fredric]

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On Wed, 17 May 2017 04:43:26 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> First thing tho, some need to stop
> ignoring the problem. 

Its not always ignoring problems, sometimes its just that we have full
plates and there's an endless river of things that need doing, and not
enough of us.

There's a whole lot of stuff I've been neglecting for the last week
just because I'm exhausted and need a break, that's why I'm here
responding instead: Its less energy consuming.

I'll get back into it eventually though.

But this is why I'm trying to remain terse and keep things headed in
the right direction.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Dale]

Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Wed, 17 May 2017 04:43:26 -0500
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> First thing tho, some need to stop
>> ignoring the problem. 
> Its not always ignoring problems, sometimes its just that we have full
> plates and there's an endless river of things that need doing, and not
> enough of us.
>
> There's a whole lot of stuff I've been neglecting for the last week
> just because I'm exhausted and need a break, that's why I'm here
> responding instead: Its less energy consuming.
>
> I'll get back into it eventually though.
>
> But this is why I'm trying to remain terse and keep things headed in
> the right direction.

I see the point but to get more people involved, Gentoo needs to do some
things different or better.  Otherwise, the complaint will always be
that there is not enough manpower to get things done because few are
joining because so many things are behind.  One feeds on the other.  
Something needs to change to help break that cycle. Unless I missed it
or they are no longer announcing new devs, the last I see joining was in
Oct of last year.  That's a good bit of time.  I hope I either missed it
or they just haven't announced them recently. 

What would be nice, figure out a way to improve things and then get to a
point where Gentoo picks only the top people wanting to join because
there are more wanting to join than is even needed.  That is a lot
better problem to deal with than not having enough to get the work done
and no one or very few joining.  I would guess that if Gentoo had twice
the devs it has now, some could at least take a breath on occasion and
not feel they are holding anything back. 

Still, things that recently happened needs to be dealt with so they
don't happen again.  No one may never know what that person we know
about could have become.  Sadly, that is likely one that is gone for
good or at least a long time.  Bigger question, how many more is there
like that? 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Tue, 16 May 2017, Dale wrote:

> Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Rich Freeman wrote:

I'm going to reply to short snippets of your e-mail.

>> Do you think that anybody really enjoys going through all this
>> headache just to boot somebody?  That's why most code of conduct
>> violations end up being ignored.

CoC issues were always meant to be dealt with warnings and short bans from 
specific mediums. The most serious issues are covered by other policies.

>> I challenge you to actually get yourself banned around here.  It
>> probably wouldn't even occur to you what you'd have to do to
>> accomplish this.  Why do you think we let countless people complain
>> about this stuff on the lists without just suppressing it?

Rich,

I understand the frustration, but let's please not incite bad behaviour.

> According to the email that William forwarded that he got from comrel,

To clear one piece of misinformation, William didn't got any email from 
ComRel. His ban from github wasn't issued by ComRel.

> I see a theme here.  Gentoo has had a few problems for quite a while.
> Based on what I've read over the past few months and certainly the past
> few days, I don't see that changing anytime soon.  10 years from now, it
> will be the same.

Dale,

yes we're aware we have some issues. Several of us have acknowledged that.
The main issue we have is lack of man power, in general and on specific 
areas. Then we have developers losing motivation and getting burned up by 
having to deal with the same discussions time and again and by feeling 
they're being "bullied" by someone in the Community.
Some developers are  reaching a "tipping point". We need them to go out, 
take a breath and relax. But that doesn't excuse a behaviour of pushing 
individual's buttons and trying to cause as much havoc as possible.

About "censorship", if our goal had been to "silence" someone or to 
prevent "dissent opinion", we would have banned emails and cleaned up
archives a long time ago. The shear number of emails from the individual 
that has "cried foul" is evidence alone that he hasn't been silenced. A 
quick glance over the archives will easily show up divergent opinions.

Finally, for all the conspiracy claims going around, there have been in 
the last years 2 former developers making a fuss about not being let in.
As a ComRel member, that won't go into details regarding the specific
cases, I can inform the community that there are valid reasons for them 
not to be let in and that most of their claims aren't accurate or true.
If one goes around setting fires everywhere, burning all bridges and 
openly being hostile to everyone, it can't be a surprise if one is deemed 
"not wanted".

Best regards,
Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
Gentoo Developer

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Wed, 17 May 2017, Michał Górny wrote:

> On wto, 2017-05-16 at 17:17 -0500, Dale wrote:
>> Rich Freeman wrote:
>>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> What stops me, is seeing someone who wants to help get shut down by others
>>>> just because they don't like him and in my opinion, targets him whenever
>>>> possible.
>>>
>>> You're making assumptions about motives.  The fact is that you don't
>>> have any knowledge about why some people aren't welcome in the
>>> community.
>>
>> Actually, I'm basing it on what I can clearly see.  If I can see it,
>> don't you think others can too?  Again, ignoring it, trying to force
>> people not to talk about it, doesn't help the problem.  Like I said, I
>> been around Gentoo for a long time.  I won't be a dev because of lots of
>> things over the years I've seen happen, most of them in public.
>
> No. You won't become a dev because you are not doing *anything* but
> talking. Just like a number of other people on this mailing list who are
> rejected because of lack of willingness to do anything useful, and then
> they claim that they reject Gentoo because it is so bad.

To be clear, this is the opinion, I'd venture frustrated opinion, of a 
Gentoo developer. This isn't an official reply by Gentoo Recruiters.

> Just FYI because I'm getting tired of this recurring theme.

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Dale]

Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> On Tue, 16 May 2017, Dale wrote:
>
>
> Dale,
>
> yes we're aware we have some issues. Several of us have acknowledged
> that.
> The main issue we have is lack of man power, in general and on
> specific areas. Then we have developers losing motivation and getting
> burned up by having to deal with the same discussions time and again
> and by feeling they're being "bullied" by someone in the Community.
> Some developers are  reaching a "tipping point". We need them to go
> out, take a breath and relax. But that doesn't excuse a behaviour of
> pushing individual's buttons and trying to cause as much havoc as
> possible.
>
> About "censorship", if our goal had been to "silence" someone or to
> prevent "dissent opinion", we would have banned emails and cleaned up
> archives a long time ago. The shear number of emails from the
> individual that has "cried foul" is evidence alone that he hasn't been
> silenced. A quick glance over the archives will easily show up
> divergent opinions.
>
> Finally, for all the conspiracy claims going around, there have been
> in the last years 2 former developers making a fuss about not being
> let in.
> As a ComRel member, that won't go into details regarding the specific
> cases, I can inform the community that there are valid reasons for
> them not to be let in and that most of their claims aren't accurate or
> true.
> If one goes around setting fires everywhere, burning all bridges and
> openly being hostile to everyone, it can't be a surprise if one is
> deemed "not wanted".
>
> Best regards,
> Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
> Gentoo Developer
>
>

And I understand that frustration.  It frustrates me to see Gentoo go
through the same issues over and over again with nothing changing.  As I
pointed out earlier this is a self fulfilling problem or a viscous
cycle.  This that just happened with months of work not helping anyone,
leaving out things from ages ago about a ex-dev and his post, is a sad
situation for everyone.  Gentoo may have lost a future dev because of
the problem Gentoo doesn't have time to address which leads to it going
on again and again.  The more I think about this, the more frustrated I
get because it's not going to stop the cycle by doing the same things. 

Rich and myself had a exchange with me asking questions and trying to
get to some sort of solution but I don't hold any ill will against him
and I certainly don't mean it in a bad way.  Heck, I like a lot of
things Rich has done and have said as much.  He's one of the devs that
is active on -user.  To me, that is a really good thing because he is
helpful, very helpful at that.  He doesn't have to be active on -user at
all.  But he is.  I might add, it's one reason I reply to him because
eventually, we work it out. 

I don't care if it takes a while but I'd like to continue to work with
this to see if something, anything, can be done to help with this sort
of situation.  As I pointed out to Kent, if I can do nothing but plant a
seed that ends up getting Gentoo to a better place, I'm fine with that. 
If some idea I come up with helps, fine.  If it just leads to something
that will help, that's fine too.  But to act like this problem that has
went on for a long time is going to solve itself, obviously that isn't
going to work. 

As to ex-devs, Gentoo needs help.  Where possible, let people help.  If
that means them not being able to do so within Gentoo but they can
outside of it, fine.  I have to admit tho, I've never seen where posting
something that is honest is supposed to be a bad thing and be punished. 
The post that got William off of Github was maybe not ideal but at least
it wasn't ignoring the poor guy that put in all that effort for
basically nothing.  If I were active there and saw the post William
responded to, I would likely have offered pretty much the same
information. 

Now, is anyone interested in discussing a solution or does Gentoo plan
to do the same thing and expect different results? 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 7:16 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It frustrates me to see Gentoo go through the same issues over and over again with nothing changing.

If you want to fix problems you need to identify their root causes.
I'm not convinced this is really being done.

Issue: not enough people are contributing to project xyz on Gentoo.

That seems to be the crux of the matter here.  Some say it is because
contributors are scared away by email chains, and that might be
possibly true.  Some say it is because contributors are being turned
away because they are disliked, and that might even be somewhat true.
However, I think there are a bunch of other potential causes, and I
don't think we really can tell how much they all contribute:

First, "not enough people are working on xyz" is a completely
subjective statement.  It is saying that Gentoo does not meet the
expectations of the person making the statement.  There is no
objective standard that says that a distro must do this much of A and
that much of B.  Every distro has projects that have more and less
support.  A project that one person considers critical might be
considered superfluous by another.  The example in this thread was
Java and it is a good example of this.  I see people with fairly
divided opinions on Java everywhere.  Some deem it an enterprise
technology that is widespread and indefensible, and their arguments
are fairly valid.  Others call it a memory hog and a pain to
administer and they usually raise good arguments as well.  A lot of
Gentoo devs don't care about the enterprise, and some do, but probably
don't use Java there.  Also, half the point of Java is
write-once-run-everywhere which doesn't entirely mesh well with a
source-based distro.  I'm not saying that you can't build Java from
source - just that you don't necessarily get the same benefits from
doing so that you might with C.

Then if you want to compare Gentoo with other distros you need to keep
in mind that we are very much a niche.  Many examples can be cited of:
* Binary distros that are release based.
* Binary distros that are rolling release.
* Binary distros that target the enterprise.
* Binary distros that target the desktop.  (ironically the biggest is
a Gentoo derivative)
* Binary distros that are focused around Gnome 3.
* Binary distros that are focused around Gnome 2.
* Binary distros that are focused around KDE/Plasma.
* I wouldn't be shocked if there are several focused around KDE 3/4.
* Binary distros that operate principally from LiveDVDs.
* Binary distros focused on routers.
* Binary distros that are very systemd-oriented.
* Binary distros that use systemd but in more of a legacy/LSB-oriented manner.
* Binary distros that avoid systemd.
* Binary distros that exist mainly to run containers (ironically the
biggest is a Gentoo derivative)
* Binary distros that exist to run on phones.
* Binary distros that semi-containerize every package.

If you want to talk about source-based distros there is basically just
Gentoo and a few derivatives.  In the binary world they have such
manpower available that they can fork themselves in 500 different
directions.  In the source-based world we have so little manpower that
we struggle to maintain a viable distro under one big tent.
Maintaining a source-based distro is also fairly manpower-intensive.
We need build scripts that work for everybody in all kinds of exotic
configurations.  A binary distro just needs to be able to reliably get
a scripted build to work in a very controlled environment.

I think Gentoo is great, but a lot of people don't feel that they need
it to meet their needs, and a lot of binary distros are a lot easier
to maintain.  I run OpenWRT on my router, not Gentoo.  I run Android
on my phone, not Gentoo.  There are advantages to having
niche-oriented distros and the binary world has a TON of them.

The binary distros have also tended to improve over time.  Back when
emerge was mainly competing against Debian/Redhat it was a different
world than the world post-Ubuntu.  Arch is also fairly similar to
Gentoo in principle and thus will tend to split the contributor base.

So, even if we had an environment where every Gentoo contributor was
completely happy, and every offered PR made it into the tree in a
quality-controlled manner in a day, we probably would still struggle
with some of these issues.  That is frustrating, but I think it goes
with the territory.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to belittle the interpersonal
stuff, and we may be able to improve there.  I just wouldn't count on
it turning into a high-commit-volume paradise without some bigger
changes.  A lot of these changes are going to be difficult to make.
Our PR workflow is certainly an improvement, but as we see with Java
it still suffers when nobody with commit access wants to deal with the
PRs, and there is probably a lot of room for improvement in other
ways.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Paweł Hajdan, Jr.]

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On 14/05/2017 16:29, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 14:56:03 +0200
> From: David Seifert <soap@gentoo.org>
> To: wlt-ml@o-sinc.com
> Cc: comrel@gentoo.org, infra@gentoo.org, github@gentoo.org
> Subject: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo
> Github page
> 
> Dear William,
> 
> Gentoo's Github team has unanimously decided to prevent you from
> posting and/or interacting with most projects hosted on Gentoo's Github
> page for 2 weeks. This was done in response to your comment
> 
> https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pull/1721#issuecomment-300178677
> 
> which is not the place to post comments and recount how Gentoo Java is
> struggling with its staffing needs at the moment or historically. The
> Github page and review functionality are for code-centric feedback and
> technical discussions, not about Gentoo-meta issues or the like. We
> want to keep the Github page a friendly environment for all non-Gentoo
> contributors.

I'd like to share some thoughts on this (hopefully not making things
even worse):

1. William, posts like above
(<https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pull/1721#issuecomment-300178677>)
don't seem to help your case. GitHub could be one of the last few places
where Gentoo would be able to accept contributions from you as a
non-developer.

2. The ban is not permanent (yet?) - my understanding is it expires in
two weeks. This still gives you chance to positively contribute to
Gentoo. Based on the experience so far, I'd urge you to limit it to
uncontroversial technical matters, at least for some time.

3. I can understand the frustration of people involved. The PR did not
land in ~year, even though the ebuilds added were hard-masked. The risk
of landing it was minimal, and it could provide good basis for further
contributions. Let me know if I missed an important reason not to let it
land. Finding some way to un-block developments like these could be one
of more productive directions for this conversation.

Paweł


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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Wed, 17 May 2017 17:26:55 +0200
"Paweł Hajdan, Jr." <phajdan.jr@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> I'd like to share some thoughts on this (hopefully not making things
> even worse):
> 
> 1. William, posts like above
> (<https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pull/1721#issuecomment-300178677>)
> don't seem to help your case. GitHub could be one of the last few
> places where Gentoo would be able to accept contributions from you as
> a non-developer.

I stopped long ago due to the people running Gentoo's Github. Excessive
reviews of PR that introduced new issues in at least 1 case. It was a
waste of time. Though prior to such I did get a few things in that way.
I had high hope as it was the first time an outsider could effect large
change, like say package removal. Though still requires proxy, not to
mention when the review causes issues.

Sunrise and Github PRs are not even bandaids on a gashing wound. Gentoo
needs more developers not outside contributors! For every outside
contributor, it requires at least 1 Gentoo dev to proxy. If not several
for review, etc. Time is better spent recruiting said contributor.

> 2. The ban is not permanent (yet?) - my understanding is it expires in
> two weeks. This still gives you chance to positively contribute to
> Gentoo. Based on the experience so far, I'd urge you to limit it to
> uncontroversial technical matters, at least for some time.

When will people learn. When you ban or drive away a contributor. They
do not always come back. How does such an action motivate anyone to
contribute more? It has the complete opposite effect!

This was the case in 2008. I left for MANY years. There are things
STILL in tree that I was working on removing then. Even worse most any
package I maintained is still without a maintainer, a decade later.

Gentoo has some serious lessons to learn it still has not.

> 3. I can understand the frustration of people involved. The PR did not
> land in ~year, even though the ebuilds added were hard-masked. The
> risk of landing it was minimal, and it could provide good basis for
> further contributions. Let me know if I missed an important reason
> not to let it land. Finding some way to un-block developments like
> these could be one of more productive directions for this
> conversation.

Not sure exactly what your saying here. The problem is the same as all.
To accept/merge the contribution is trivial. To maintain the
contribution is where the issue comes into play.

The lack of man power issue...

Thus if no one can keep current and maintain, or has the time to
continue to proxy. The contribution is turned away.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 11:41 AM, William L. Thomson Jr.
<wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
>
> Sunrise and Github PRs are not even bandaids on a gashing wound. Gentoo
> needs more developers not outside contributors! For every outside
> contributor, it requires at least 1 Gentoo dev to proxy. If not several
> for review, etc. Time is better spent recruiting said contributor.
>

There is actually a diversity of opinion on that particular topic.
Hasufell ended up leaving out of frustration because he actually
wanted the exact opposite - fewer developers and more outside
contributors.  In his view the most efficient workflow would be ALL
commits coming in via PRs with Gentoo optimized to make this the most
efficient workflow.

His argument would probably be that the current reliance on developers
tends to result in the PR workflow being overlooked and downplayed,
which makes it much harder for people to make incidental
contributions.  Rather than focusing on having more internal
developers he wanted there to be more of a focus on lowering barriers
to external contribution.  His argument would probably be that there
are a lot of potential "drive by" contributors out there who would
happily donate a pull request or two without any desire to learn much
about the Gentoo workflow or quality standards.

I'm sure he'd articulate it better than I did.

I'm not entirely convinced that we'd be flooded with PRs if we merely
made the process easier, but I think it is a very legitimate approach.
Arch's AUR might be a model of such an approach, though I confess I
don't know all the details of how it works.  You could have a layered
repository with varying levels of quality in such a model, with the
devs focusing on maintaining a smaller core and being curators for
user contributions.

Obviously any change like this would be a major one.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Kent Fredric]

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On Wed, 17 May 2017 11:41:06 -0400
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> I stopped long ago due to the people running Gentoo's Github.

Find people on the inside who you trust and can co-operate with.

Use Github PRs as a broadcast channel, but don't rely on the
proxy-maint to do things.

Or something like that.

Though obviously, the hard part here might be that first line.

If you don't trust any Gentoo devs and don't get on well with any, then
I'd imagine your motivation to help Gentoo might be low, surely, there
are *some* people on the inside you get on well with :)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Thu, 18 May 2017 05:05:32 +1200
Kent Fredric <kentnl@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 17 May 2017 11:41:06 -0400
> "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> 
> > I stopped long ago due to the people running Gentoo's Github.  
> 
> Find people on the inside who you trust and can co-operate with.

There are very few left, off hand listed in order

Miroslav Šulc (fordfrog)
	Really the only one for java stuff and is short on time. Some
	stuff like Tomcat PR falls back on me, as I used to maintain it.
	I mentioned that to him and it fell back on me. He is also very
	busy and barely has time for the packages he maintains. Which
	ended up including Tomcat in my absence.

Benda XU ( heroxbd)
	Likely last resort but has potential, has some interest in Java
	some interaction over java-ebuilder and related. I rather not
	distract him from his efforts on recruiting others. I believe
	he has brought on a few other devs.

Patrick Lauer (patrick)
	I did proxy for years via  but it was a waste of his time
	really. Likely still an option. Though that was never Java
	stuff it was other, assp, firebird, etc.

Mike Frysinger (vapier)
	One I trust the most, but I would never bother him with
	proxying bs, total waste of his time and others.

Diego Elio Pettenò (flameeyes)
	Same as mike, trusted but would never bother. I did ask for
	help on a package sometime back and he was very responsive and
	helpful. Not sure he is very active in Gentoo these days.

However remove me entirely. Who is there to proxy Java stuff to tree?
Trivial stuff is handled, but complex? Who is working with contributors?
How easy is it for other Java contributors to get their work into tree?
Anyone around to do such? Or any who even cares?

The problems extend far beyond myself. Java is NOT the only area, just
an example. The firebird situation is funny and also involves Github...

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Wed, 17 May 2017 11:19:12 +0000 (UTC)
"Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:

>
> Finally, for all the conspiracy claims going around, there have been
> in the last years 2 former developers making a fuss about not being
> let in.

What is the domino effect? (cascading effect)

What if each of those two people led to more contributors?
Did not letting them return bring others onto the project?
Is more getting done as a result?

Dominos fall either way. Either bringing more in, or keeping more out.
Given that very few if any are coming. It is pretty clear which
direction they fell and continue to fall.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Maciej Mrozowski]

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On środa, 17 maja 2017 09:46:47 CEST Dale wrote:
> Michał Górny wrote:
> > On śro, 2017-05-17 at 01:54 -0500, Dale wrote:
> >> Michał Górny wrote:
> >>> On wto, 2017-05-16 at 17:17 -0500, Dale wrote:
> >>>> Rich Freeman wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> What stops me, is seeing someone who wants to help get shut down by
> >>>>>> others
> >>>>>> just because they don't like him and in my opinion, targets him
> >>>>>> whenever
> >>>>>> possible.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> You're making assumptions about motives.  The fact is that you don't
> >>>>> have any knowledge about why some people aren't welcome in the
> >>>>> community.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Actually, I'm basing it on what I can clearly see.  If I can see it,
> >>>> don't you think others can too?  Again, ignoring it, trying to force
> >>>> people not to talk about it, doesn't help the problem.  Like I said, I
> >>>> been around Gentoo for a long time.  I won't be a dev because of lots
> >>>> of
> >>>> things over the years I've seen happen, most of them in public.
> >>> 
> >>> No. You won't become a dev because you are not doing *anything* but
> >>> talking. Just like a number of other people on this mailing list who are
> >>> rejected because of lack of willingness to do anything useful, and then
> >>> they claim that they reject Gentoo because it is so bad.
> >>> 
> >>> Just FYI because I'm getting tired of this recurring theme.
> >> 
> >> So you are ignoring some of the possible solutions and changes I
> >> included in my other posts?  That is called doing something and I might
> >> add, is more than most others are doing.  Most others seem to want to
> >> ignore the problems for a while longer.  Then wonder why people keep
> >> talking about it.
> > 
> > No, I am ignoring most of your posts because I do not have time to read
> > them. Those parts which I've read are long and talk of nothing. As far
> > as I'm concerned, your contributions are 90% wasting others' time on
> > reading what you wrote.
> > 
> > Before you start solving problems in Gentoo, focus on problems with
> > yourself.
> 
> Maybe you should take your own??  Since you ignore most of my posts, no
> wonder you don't see the information I'm providing.  You have to read
> them to see it.  If you don't want to read them, why are you commenting
> on them?  If I'm not going to bother to read your posts, I'm not going
> to comment on it either.  I read yours.  Try reading mine or not
> commenting thinking you know what is in it when you don't.   So far,
> your posts bring 100% nothing to the table.  Your post is a 100% waste
> of time.  Maybe you need to work on that and actually discuss the topic
> instead?
> 
> >> Do you have any solutions you would like to post?  Or do you just want
> >> to ignore that someone just posted that they are "incredibly
> >> disappointed in the Gentoo Java team."?   How many more need to post
> >> something like that before you actually post something that will help
> >> solve the problem?  Let's hear your ideas on a solution.
> > 
> > One good solution would be to kick most of the non-developers out of
> > this mailing list, so that discussion can focus back on Gentoo, and not
> > on self-pity of one ex-dev diverted so any times that I have no idea
> > what the topic is anymore. Last I read, it's about who is trolling who,
> > and why trolling is good as long as you pretend it's important.
> > 
> > Then maybe people will have time to work on Gentoo rather than be
> > distracted by useless spam. Then maybe they will be able to accept
> > contributions.
> 

[snip]
> Since you mention spam.  Your post brings absolutely nothing to the
> topic.

Michał first and foremost gets his hands dirty with actual work - bugfixing, 
package bumps, countless eclass/profiles/infra improvements.
This is the 'anything useful' that was mentioned and is what is needed and 
most appreciated in Gentoo.

Sending emails on mailing list with whatever brilliant idea just one might 
come up with while not being willing/able to realize with own hands - 
especially when related to meta problems like this one - is not kind of 
contribution Gentoo needs.

-- 
regards
MM

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Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Dale]

Maciej Mrozowski wrote:
> On środa, 17 maja 2017 09:46:47 CEST Dale wrote:
>> Michał Górny wrote:
>>> On śro, 2017-05-17 at 01:54 -0500, Dale wrote:
>>>> Michał Górny wrote:
>>>>> On wto, 2017-05-16 at 17:17 -0500, Dale wrote:
>>>>>> Rich Freeman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> What stops me, is seeing someone who wants to help get shut down by
>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>> just because they don't like him and in my opinion, targets him
>>>>>>>> whenever
>>>>>>>> possible.
>>>>>>> You're making assumptions about motives.  The fact is that you don't
>>>>>>> have any knowledge about why some people aren't welcome in the
>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>> Actually, I'm basing it on what I can clearly see.  If I can see it,
>>>>>> don't you think others can too?  Again, ignoring it, trying to force
>>>>>> people not to talk about it, doesn't help the problem.  Like I said, I
>>>>>> been around Gentoo for a long time.  I won't be a dev because of lots
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> things over the years I've seen happen, most of them in public.
>>>>> No. You won't become a dev because you are not doing *anything* but
>>>>> talking. Just like a number of other people on this mailing list who are
>>>>> rejected because of lack of willingness to do anything useful, and then
>>>>> they claim that they reject Gentoo because it is so bad.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just FYI because I'm getting tired of this recurring theme.
>>>> So you are ignoring some of the possible solutions and changes I
>>>> included in my other posts?  That is called doing something and I might
>>>> add, is more than most others are doing.  Most others seem to want to
>>>> ignore the problems for a while longer.  Then wonder why people keep
>>>> talking about it.
>>> No, I am ignoring most of your posts because I do not have time to read
>>> them. Those parts which I've read are long and talk of nothing. As far
>>> as I'm concerned, your contributions are 90% wasting others' time on
>>> reading what you wrote.
>>>
>>> Before you start solving problems in Gentoo, focus on problems with
>>> yourself.
>> Maybe you should take your own??  Since you ignore most of my posts, no
>> wonder you don't see the information I'm providing.  You have to read
>> them to see it.  If you don't want to read them, why are you commenting
>> on them?  If I'm not going to bother to read your posts, I'm not going
>> to comment on it either.  I read yours.  Try reading mine or not
>> commenting thinking you know what is in it when you don't.   So far,
>> your posts bring 100% nothing to the table.  Your post is a 100% waste
>> of time.  Maybe you need to work on that and actually discuss the topic
>> instead?
>>
>>>> Do you have any solutions you would like to post?  Or do you just want
>>>> to ignore that someone just posted that they are "incredibly
>>>> disappointed in the Gentoo Java team."?   How many more need to post
>>>> something like that before you actually post something that will help
>>>> solve the problem?  Let's hear your ideas on a solution.
>>> One good solution would be to kick most of the non-developers out of
>>> this mailing list, so that discussion can focus back on Gentoo, and not
>>> on self-pity of one ex-dev diverted so any times that I have no idea
>>> what the topic is anymore. Last I read, it's about who is trolling who,
>>> and why trolling is good as long as you pretend it's important.
>>>
>>> Then maybe people will have time to work on Gentoo rather than be
>>> distracted by useless spam. Then maybe they will be able to accept
>>> contributions.
> [snip]
>> Since you mention spam.  Your post brings absolutely nothing to the
>> topic.
> Michał first and foremost gets his hands dirty with actual work - bugfixing, 
> package bumps, countless eclass/profiles/infra improvements.
> This is the 'anything useful' that was mentioned and is what is needed and 
> most appreciated in Gentoo.
>
> Sending emails on mailing list with whatever brilliant idea just one might 
> come up with while not being willing/able to realize with own hands - 
> especially when related to meta problems like this one - is not kind of 
> contribution Gentoo needs.
>


So what you are really saying is that Gentoo is not interesting in
improving the situation and no one needs to try to come up with any
ideas that might help? 

If that is what you are saying, Gentoo will stay like it is and deserves
to remain there.  What Gentoo is doing is the definition of insanity. 
Doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result. 

If this is the Gentoo plan, what has happened recently isn't the only
sad thing about this.  The worst part is no none caring enough to do
anything to solve it except for one user.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[Dale]

Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 7:16 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It frustrates me to see Gentoo go through the same issues over and over again with nothing changing.
> If you want to fix problems you need to identify their root causes.
> I'm not convinced this is really being done.
>
> Issue: not enough people are contributing to project xyz on Gentoo.
>
> That seems to be the crux of the matter here.  Some say it is because
> contributors are scared away by email chains, and that might be
> possibly true.  Some say it is because contributors are being turned
> away because they are disliked, and that might even be somewhat true.
> However, I think there are a bunch of other potential causes, and I
> don't think we really can tell how much they all contribute:
>
> First, "not enough people are working on xyz" is a completely
> subjective statement.  It is saying that Gentoo does not meet the
> expectations of the person making the statement.  There is no
> objective standard that says that a distro must do this much of A and
> that much of B.  Every distro has projects that have more and less
> support.  A project that one person considers critical might be
> considered superfluous by another.  The example in this thread was
> Java and it is a good example of this.  I see people with fairly
> divided opinions on Java everywhere.  Some deem it an enterprise
> technology that is widespread and indefensible, and their arguments
> are fairly valid.  Others call it a memory hog and a pain to
> administer and they usually raise good arguments as well.  A lot of
> Gentoo devs don't care about the enterprise, and some do, but probably
> don't use Java there.  Also, half the point of Java is
> write-once-run-everywhere which doesn't entirely mesh well with a
> source-based distro.  I'm not saying that you can't build Java from
> source - just that you don't necessarily get the same benefits from
> doing so that you might with C.
>
> Then if you want to compare Gentoo with other distros you need to keep
> in mind that we are very much a niche.  Many examples can be cited of:
> * Binary distros that are release based.
> * Binary distros that are rolling release.
> * Binary distros that target the enterprise.
> * Binary distros that target the desktop.  (ironically the biggest is
> a Gentoo derivative)
> * Binary distros that are focused around Gnome 3.
> * Binary distros that are focused around Gnome 2.
> * Binary distros that are focused around KDE/Plasma.
> * I wouldn't be shocked if there are several focused around KDE 3/4.
> * Binary distros that operate principally from LiveDVDs.
> * Binary distros focused on routers.
> * Binary distros that are very systemd-oriented.
> * Binary distros that use systemd but in more of a legacy/LSB-oriented manner.
> * Binary distros that avoid systemd.
> * Binary distros that exist mainly to run containers (ironically the
> biggest is a Gentoo derivative)
> * Binary distros that exist to run on phones.
> * Binary distros that semi-containerize every package.
>
> If you want to talk about source-based distros there is basically just
> Gentoo and a few derivatives.  In the binary world they have such
> manpower available that they can fork themselves in 500 different
> directions.  In the source-based world we have so little manpower that
> we struggle to maintain a viable distro under one big tent.
> Maintaining a source-based distro is also fairly manpower-intensive.
> We need build scripts that work for everybody in all kinds of exotic
> configurations.  A binary distro just needs to be able to reliably get
> a scripted build to work in a very controlled environment.
>
> I think Gentoo is great, but a lot of people don't feel that they need
> it to meet their needs, and a lot of binary distros are a lot easier
> to maintain.  I run OpenWRT on my router, not Gentoo.  I run Android
> on my phone, not Gentoo.  There are advantages to having
> niche-oriented distros and the binary world has a TON of them.
>
> The binary distros have also tended to improve over time.  Back when
> emerge was mainly competing against Debian/Redhat it was a different
> world than the world post-Ubuntu.  Arch is also fairly similar to
> Gentoo in principle and thus will tend to split the contributor base.
>
> So, even if we had an environment where every Gentoo contributor was
> completely happy, and every offered PR made it into the tree in a
> quality-controlled manner in a day, we probably would still struggle
> with some of these issues.  That is frustrating, but I think it goes
> with the territory.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to belittle the interpersonal
> stuff, and we may be able to improve there.  I just wouldn't count on
> it turning into a high-commit-volume paradise without some bigger
> changes.  A lot of these changes are going to be difficult to make.
> Our PR workflow is certainly an improvement, but as we see with Java
> it still suffers when nobody with commit access wants to deal with the
> PRs, and there is probably a lot of room for improvement in other
> ways.
>


I had a nice draft response to this which you would likely have enjoyed
reading but after reading Maciej's reply, I don't see the need to even
finish it.  It seems the current Gentoo staff wants to keep going the
same way and keep things as they are, which is the problem.  If that is
the case, fine.  I learned long ago that there are some people and some
groups that don't deserve help even when they need it.  I learned to
walk away in those cases and let them fend for themselves even if I
don't like seeing it happen. 

I guess Gentoo wants to go along like this for good while longer.  I
suspect that by the time Gentoo wants to fix it, there won't be anyone
willing to help fix it. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-project] Fw: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo Github page

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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FYI this person is commenting on the PR again. I will not comment per
what happened to me last time. Someone should likely respond to him
someday. He was ignored for some time, not to mention upset when his
contribution was not accepted.

He does have a point
http://www.java9countdown.xyz/

Which Gentoo is not ready for, and could be a fair amount of issues.
Just a friendly heads up on both :)

On Sun, 14 May 2017 10:29:48 -0400
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> Today I receive notice of a 2 week suspension for the following
> comment. Completely after the fact, days later.... This happened on
> 5/10/2017. Maybe eve on 5/9/2017. Someone is trying to clean up a
> mess.
> 
> https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pull/1721#issuecomment-299942259
> 
> Gentoo is an absolutely absurd place these days. Repeatedly taking
> action for even the most minor comments. Which is NOT by any means any
> sort of CoC violation.
> 
> Exactly why I never bothered appealing anything. The past will never
> be let go and I will always be sought out for any sort of punishment.
> No matter what this says to others outside Gentoo. Which per above
> contributors were already being neglected...
> 
> Really funny stuff!
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 14:56:03 +0200
> From: David Seifert <soap@gentoo.org>
> To: wlt-ml@o-sinc.com
> Cc: comrel@gentoo.org, infra@gentoo.org, github@gentoo.org
> Subject: Your temporary 2 week suspension on interacting on the Gentoo
> Github page
> 
> 
> Dear William,
> 
> Gentoo's Github team has unanimously decided to prevent you from
> posting and/or interacting with most projects hosted on Gentoo's
> Github page for 2 weeks. This was done in response to your comment
> 
> https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pull/1721#issuecomment-300178677
> 
> which is not the place to post comments and recount how Gentoo Java is
> struggling with its staffing needs at the moment or historically. The
> Github page and review functionality are for code-centric feedback and
> technical discussions, not about Gentoo-meta issues or the like. We
> want to keep the Github page a friendly environment for all non-Gentoo
> contributors.
> 
> Please also take note of the fact that Gentoo's Github interface is
> not part of the official Gentoo workflow, and as such is provided as a
> best-effort service by the Github Project. None of this pertains to
> your access under the aegis of the Gentoo workflow (Bugzie/ML/etc).
> 
> Kind Regards
> David
> on behalf of the Gentoo Github Team
> 
> 



-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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