[gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Daniel Campbell]

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I'm not going to mince words here: why did we kick out a contributor who
was helping the Gentoo cause? I've looked over logs that were shared
with me and the worst thing I could find was an off-color joke. Worse
things occur on these mailing lists that never see Comrel's inbox, so
why this?

Ian's ban was recently lifted (or so I heard). Correspondence from a
member of Proxy Maintainers was shared with me, calling for Ian to be
banned from #gentoo-proxy-maint on Freenode, despite Ian not visiting
said channel recently. What is the reasoning for this?

What I'm looking for is undeniable proof that Ian was irrevocably
damaging and threatening to Gentoo, to justify his dismissal and
accompanying ban. If such information will not or cannot be provided,
then it indicates to me that there *is* no proof, and without it I will
call for his reinstatement for the next council meeting.

I am not alone in requesting accountability from the top of Gentoo. I
will take the results of this conversation into consideration when it's
time to vote next year, as Gentoo is suffering from staffing issues and
practices like this actively damage Gentoo's ability to attract and
retain contributors. I have personally met people who have suffered as a
result of this debacle; people willing and eager to help us out that are
still struggling to join our ranks. So what gives?

This distribution should not turn away anyone willing (and able) to
help. This is a critical flaw that could accelerate our decline.

Thank you for your time.
-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6


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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I'm not going to mince words here: why did we kick out a contributor who
> was helping the Gentoo cause? I've looked over logs that were shared
> with me and the worst thing I could find was an off-color joke. Worse
> things occur on these mailing lists that never see Comrel's inbox, so
> why this?

This does not sound like you have the full picture of the years over
which Ian attempted to contribute to Gentoo. I was involved for a long
time, basically from the start of Ian's tenure as a developer, and I
fully support his being kicked out.

> What I'm looking for is undeniable proof that Ian was irrevocably
> damaging and threatening to Gentoo, to justify his dismissal and
> accompanying ban. If such information will not or cannot be provided,
> then it indicates to me that there *is* no proof, and without it I will
> call for his reinstatement for the next council meeting.

As I'm not a member of ComRel or Council or whatever and I haven't
kept any logs, I think you're being to binary about this. Even if
there is no single thing that shows Ian "irrevocably damaging and
threatening" Gentoo, there can still be a reason to prevent him from
participating in some of our venues. I think the problem with Ian is
that, as hard as he may try to contribute, I found his contributions
to be net negative to the distribution. As such, I do think his
presence is damaging to Gentoo. (And please note that I initially
encouraged him to join us, and, as lead of the Python team at the
time, spent significant time ironing out issues that arose from his
attempts at contribution.)

> I am not alone in requesting accountability from the top of Gentoo. I
> will take the results of this conversation into consideration when it's
> time to vote next year, as Gentoo is suffering from staffing issues and
> practices like this actively damage Gentoo's ability to attract and
> retain contributors. I have personally met people who have suffered as a
> result of this debacle; people willing and eager to help us out that are
> still struggling to join our ranks. So what gives?
>
> This distribution should not turn away anyone willing (and able) to
> help. This is a critical flaw that could accelerate our decline.

I respectfully but strongly disagree. Some people that are willing and
able to help can in the end turn out to be negative contributors. It
is imperative for our community that we can identify those people and
minimize their impact on the distribution both socially and
technically.

Cheers,

Dirkjan

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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I have no interest in this matter either way. I am just curious and facts can 
always help reinforce ones point of view.

On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 5:10:36 PM EST Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> As such, I do think his
> presence is damaging to Gentoo. (And please note that I initially
> encouraged him to join us, and, as lead of the Python team at the
> time, spent significant time ironing out issues that arose from his
> attempts at contribution.)

Were these issues technical in nature? Lacking Q/A or adherence to Gentoo 
packaging policies, etc. Likely could support your statement with a link or 
two to reverted commits, fixes, bugs, etc.

> I respectfully but strongly disagree. Some people that are willing and
> able to help can in the end turn out to be negative contributors. It
> is imperative for our community that we can identify those people and
> minimize their impact on the distribution both socially and
> technically.

Again out of curiosity do you have any examples to share, like of negative 
contributions.

I respect your opinion, given your past interactions helping to recruit. Some 
links/facts can always help and make it less opinionated.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michał Górny]

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On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 05:43:46 -0800
Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I'm not going to mince words here: why did we kick out a contributor who
> was helping the Gentoo cause? I've looked over logs that were shared
> with me and the worst thing I could find was an off-color joke. Worse
> things occur on these mailing lists that never see Comrel's inbox, so
> why this?
> 
> Ian's ban was recently lifted (or so I heard). Correspondence from a
> member of Proxy Maintainers was shared with me, calling for Ian to be
> banned from #gentoo-proxy-maint on Freenode, despite Ian not visiting
> said channel recently. What is the reasoning for this?
> 
> What I'm looking for is undeniable proof that Ian was irrevocably
> damaging and threatening to Gentoo, to justify his dismissal and
> accompanying ban. If such information will not or cannot be provided,
> then it indicates to me that there *is* no proof, and without it I will
> call for his reinstatement for the next council meeting.
> 
> I am not alone in requesting accountability from the top of Gentoo. I
> will take the results of this conversation into consideration when it's
> time to vote next year, as Gentoo is suffering from staffing issues and
> practices like this actively damage Gentoo's ability to attract and
> retain contributors. I have personally met people who have suffered as a
> result of this debacle; people willing and eager to help us out that are
> still struggling to join our ranks. So what gives?
> 
> This distribution should not turn away anyone willing (and able) to
> help. This is a critical flaw that could accelerate our decline.

Considering the nature of comrel operation, I don't think a public
mailing list is an appropriate medium for this conversation. In fact,
I'm not even sure if you already haven't disclosed confidential
information.

However, in order to hopefully satisfy your curiosity, I'm going to
tell you something general: there are people who can do a lot of harm
to Gentoo without breaking any obvious rules.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny
<http://dev.gentoo.org/~mgorny/>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 05:43:46 -0800
Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
> This distribution should not turn away anyone willing (and able) to
> help. This is a critical flaw that could accelerate our decline.

Gentoo is about the community, not about the product, and things have
been this way for quite a while now. Most of the Gentoo community don't
use Gentoo the distribution, just Gentoo the social medium, and any
threat to this must be eliminated. That's why Gentoo likes forums,
wikis, and long lists of emerge options, rather than high quality
documentation and good defaults: the more confusion and misinformation
there is out there, the more forum posts it takes to resolve a problem,
and the better the community is as a result.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Matthias Maier]

> [...]

You, Sir, are the perfect troll.

Best,
Matthias

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 10:29:13 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:
>
> Considering the nature of comrel operation, I don't think a public
> mailing list is an appropriate medium for this conversation. In fact,
> I'm not even sure if you already haven't disclosed confidential
> information.

 I have always been a fan of operating in public. I question things that must 
be kept confidential. This is about open source software after all. Not to 
mention an open source project, and non profit foundation. This was how I felt 
when I was a Trustee, and did not like discussing anything related to Gentoo 
or the Foundation in private then.

The only deviation is on matters of security vulnerabilities. That is for 
technical and safety reasons. For anything else, I believe it is just an 
excuse rather than any hard requirement. It is surely not any legal 
requirement to keep information private.

In the United States lots of information must be made public for good reason. 
Sadly nothing relating to Gentoo would fall into public disclosure acts to my 
knowledge, but I am not a lawyer.
 
> However, in order to hopefully satisfy your curiosity, I'm going to
> tell you something general: there are people who can do a lot of harm
> to Gentoo without breaking any obvious rules.

IMHO there are more people harming Gentoo that are part of Gentoo than anyone 
that has been cast outside of Gentoo for any reason, motivated or forced.

The general attitude expressed in this reply is exactly that. It is not 
inviting for others and IMHO shows how those that are part of Gentoo are 
harming it much more than anyone driven away.

Thus Gentoo not being now what it was, and hardly a relevant or popular 
distro. Despite VERY popular things being based on Gentoo, Chrome OS and 
CoreOS. Which ChromeOS over took Apple in educational usage. That alone is 
quite impressive, and Gentoo is not benefiting much from either.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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Never having had any direct Ciaran McCreesh. I long saw him as a problem 
because of what ever his past was, having left, been removed etc. I really do 
not know. But I always assumed he was a trouble maker.

It wasn't till I found myself in such a category, that I realized. Much of 
what I just said about Ciaran applies to others perception of myself.

If Ciaran is trolling, I would say others made him into such. Others caused 
him to be an outcast to where instead of being able to contribute directly. He 
has been forced for a very long time to do such via external means. Seeing his 
name on PMS, and knowing his involvement in other things is proof of such.

It just goes to show, this whole idea of removing people from the project 
simply does not work. Ciaran is not a Gentoo developer, he is still around and 
very much part of the community. Many in Gentoo are still benefiting from his 
efforts directly or not.

I think it is ridiculous to continue this stupid trend. People come from all 
over the world. From many areas that do not get along Socially now and likely 
never will. Those that do today may not tomorrow. Gentoo cannot solve all the 
social problems of the world.

Gentoo need not focus on Social matters, but Technical.

All this focus on social behavior has cost Gentoo tremendously on the 
technical front. No amount of justification will ever change that fact. If 
Gentoo is ultimately suffering Technically. What is the real benefit with all 
this social policing?

There is no benefit....

Ciaran is NOT a troll. He is not how most will make him out to be, and should 
likely have never been driven away from Gentoo. Ciaran, and many others, all 
of Exherbo, Funtoo, and others including myself should be reunited.

Who knows what would come of Gentoo if all this talent reunited. Would there 
be chaos for sure? But out of chaos comes the entire Universe, the big bang. 
Chaos can lead to some wonderful things. I am not sure harmony really leads to 
wondrous beauty. Mother nature is surely not very harmonious, she is a mean 
bitch, but she does amazingly beautiful work out of  chaos.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Alec Warner]

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On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 5:43 AM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I'm not going to mince words here: why did we kick out a contributor who
> was helping the Gentoo cause? I've looked over logs that were shared
> with me and the worst thing I could find was an off-color joke. Worse
> things occur on these mailing lists that never see Comrel's inbox, so
> why this?
>

So I'd expect a thread like this when you had exhausted some other avenues
of escalation. Its not clear you have.

1) Did you talk to comrel? It appears maybe you did, and they shared some
logs with you, and you evaluated them and disagreed with the outcome.
2) Did you ask them why they chose to enforce the rule against this
particular developer, or why they are not working on removing other
developers who say worse things? FWIW discretion in rule enforcement can be
a big deal, so I appreciate you bringing it up.

If you don't like their answers, I think this thread is an appropriate
forum to being them up, but not beforehand.


>
> Ian's ban was recently lifted (or so I heard). Correspondence from a
> member of Proxy Maintainers was shared with me, calling for Ian to be
> banned from #gentoo-proxy-maint on Freenode, despite Ian not visiting
> said channel recently. What is the reasoning for this?
>
>
Did you ask the channel owners? If their answer is unsatisfactory, escalate
upward.

I'm not going to speculate on why the idea was proposed (he isn't banned
there currently, according to my IRC client.)

What I'm looking for is undeniable proof that Ian was irrevocably
> damaging and threatening to Gentoo, to justify his dismissal and
> accompanying ban. If such information will not or cannot be provided,
> then it indicates to me that there *is* no proof, and without it I will
> call for his reinstatement for the next council meeting.
>

I suspect "irrevocably damaging and threatening to Gentoo" is likely not
the bar for dismissal from the project (and the bar is perhaps lower.)

You can dislike the bar, and I wholeheartedly encourage any efforts to
change it.


> I am not alone in requesting accountability from the top of Gentoo. I
> will take the results of this conversation into consideration when it's
> time to vote next year, as Gentoo is suffering from staffing issues and
> practices like this actively damage Gentoo's ability to attract and
> retain contributors. I have personally met people who have suffered as a
> result of this debacle; people willing and eager to help us out that are
> still struggling to join our ranks. So what gives?
>

> This distribution should not turn away anyone willing (and able) to
> help. This is a critical flaw that could accelerate our decline.
>

So if I openly insult people of other nationalities or races on a regular
basis on mailing lists or in chat, but I'm also a prolific Gentoo
contributor; that is OK?

I get that there are essentially two main problems with excluding people.

1) Prosecutorial Discretion (why kick out person1 but not person2; who was
also bad) which leads to people upset at uneven enforcement.
2) Judging contributors as good / bad can be tricky, because sometimes you
will allow bad people to stay in the project and good people will get
kicked out.

We can avoid this by just never excluding people. I doubt that is really
tractable because in the case of actual harassment, I expect the organs of
the community to act. In the oughts' this was the case (mailing lists got
bad and we had the code of conduct, Proctors, etc.) Would people leave if
we went back to that?


>
> Thank you for your time.
> --
> Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
> OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
> fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Luis Ressel]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 17:19:12 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> Ciaran is NOT a troll. He is not how most will make him out to be,
> and should likely have never been driven away from Gentoo. Ciaran,
> and many others, all of Exherbo, Funtoo, and others including myself
> should be reunited.

I think you may be interpreting this wrongly and tamiko didn't intend
to insult Ciaran at all. I might've actually sent a similar mail myself
if tamiko hadn't been faster. Ciaran's mails to the gentoo MLs are
always worth reading because they either contain interesting technical
remarks or hilarious jokes. What's wrong with acknowledging that?

Regards,
Luis

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 5:28:02 PM EST Alec Warner wrote:
>
>  FWIW discretion in rule enforcement can be a big deal, so I appreciate you
>  bringing it up.

I must say this is a pretty ironic comment. I guess maybe you have learned 
over the years. Given you were the 1 person who complained on me and got 
devrel to act in 2008. Not opinion, fact!
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=236479#c6

Of course the harassment I received which motivated me to resign as a Trustee 
was completely ignored. In part because the above complaint was made to one of 
the harassers...

> I suspect "irrevocably damaging and threatening to Gentoo" is likely not
> the bar for dismissal from the project (and the bar is perhaps lower.)

Considerably lower!

> You can dislike the bar, and I wholeheartedly encourage any efforts to
> change it.

I would hope so given the long term impact such actions can cause.

> So if I openly insult people of other nationalities or races on a regular
> basis on mailing lists or in chat, but I'm also a prolific Gentoo
> contributor; that is OK?

That depends on many factors, but to an extent yes it is OK because this is a 
technical project and needs people who are prolific contributors. Not everyone 
has good human relation skills. Does that mean they lack in technical?

Maybe the quizzes need to be modified for behavior and social tests? If you 
want to really insure people have the right demeanor for Gentoo. Seems they 
focus on technical things for a reason. 

> We can avoid this by just never excluding people.

That is likely a better approach, the opposite hasn't really helped Gentoo.

> I doubt that is really tractable because in the case of actual harassment, I 
> expect the organs of the community to act. 

This is not a very clear statement. You say not tractable, but then say expect 
the organs of the community to act. Unless that is mean sarcastically. Seems 
to imply the community would act to deal with any harassment. Which is likely 

> Would people leave if  we went back to that?

Better question to ask is
"What will it take for people to want to join?"

To much focus on kicking and people leaving. No focus on doing something to 
actually attract others to the community and grow it...

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Thursday, December 1, 2016 3:04:15 AM EST Luis Ressel wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 17:19:12 -0500
> 
> "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> > Ciaran is NOT a troll. He is not how most will make him out to be,
> > and should likely have never been driven away from Gentoo. Ciaran,
> > and many others, all of Exherbo, Funtoo, and others including myself
> > should be reunited.
> 
> I think you may be interpreting this wrongly and tamiko didn't intend
> to insult Ciaran at all. I might've actually sent a similar mail myself
> if tamiko hadn't been faster. Ciaran's mails to the gentoo MLs are
> always worth reading because they either contain interesting technical
> remarks or hilarious jokes. What's wrong with acknowledging that?

Very likely but my focus wasn't so much on the terms or otherwise. It was just 
a good opportunity for me to express something I have long felt.

I realized that my perception of Ciaran was likely completely wrong based on 
my own situation and black label outcast status probably a year or more ago. I 
just never had the chance to speak up on such.

Joke or not, I felt it was a good time to share my thoughts on him. I believe 
there are others out there as well. Trolling aspect aside, the rest of my 
comments regarding him and others still stand.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Sam Jorna (wraeth)]

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On Wed, 2016-11-30 at 21:10 -0500, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> > So if I openly insult people of other nationalities or races on a
> > regular
> > basis on mailing lists or in chat, but I'm also a prolific Gentoo
> > contributor; that is OK?
> 
> That depends on many factors, but to an extent yes it is OK because this
> is a 
> technical project and needs people who are prolific contributors. Not
> everyone 
> has good human relation skills. Does that mean they lack in technical?

So if the recipient of one of those insults invokes a mediator, and the
mediator says "This thing is bad, and this is why; don't do this thing", we
can ignore them provided we've contributed more? How does that encourage
people to participate - particularly, new participation - knowing that
there is nothing they can do, bar leaving, to stop the derogatory remarks?

Further, this has the potential to cause significant divisivness,
flamewars, and even more bikeshedding.

-- 
Sam Jorna (wraeth)
GPG ID: 0xD6180C26

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Nathan Zachary]

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On 30/11/16 21:32, Sam Jorna (wraeth) wrote:
> On Wed, 2016-11-30 at 21:10 -0500, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
>>> So if I openly insult people of other nationalities or races on a
>>> regular
>>> basis on mailing lists or in chat, but I'm also a prolific Gentoo
>>> contributor; that is OK?
>> That depends on many factors, but to an extent yes it is OK because this
>> is a 
>> technical project and needs people who are prolific contributors. Not
>> everyone 
>> has good human relation skills. Does that mean they lack in technical?
> So if the recipient of one of those insults invokes a mediator, and the
> mediator says "This thing is bad, and this is why; don't do this thing", we
> can ignore them provided we've contributed more? How does that encourage
> people to participate - particularly, new participation - knowing that
> there is nothing they can do, bar leaving, to stop the derogatory remarks?
>
> Further, this has the potential to cause significant divisivness,
> flamewars, and even more bikeshedding.
>
I am immediately reminded of one of my favourite quotes for Denis Dupeyron:

"There is no amount of contribution that would compensate for even the
slightest inadequate behavior."


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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:38:11 PM EST Nathan Zachary wrote:
>
> I am immediately reminded of one of my favourite quotes for Denis Dupeyron:
> 
> "There is no amount of contribution that would compensate for even the
> slightest inadequate behavior."

Was that before or after he was removed from Comrel for likely no reason?

Having met him in person, and had other interactions with him. I cannot for 
the life of me understand why that would be the case. At the same time, I 
think he voted for moderation against me years ago. It does not change my 
opinion of him, then or now.

In fact Dennis recommend I work in my own overlay and avoid trying to 
contribute to Gentoo some time ago... I won't go so far as to quote him on 
that one :)

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michał Górny]

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On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 21:14:08 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, December 1, 2016 3:04:15 AM EST Luis Ressel wrote:
> > On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 17:19:12 -0500
> > 
> > "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:  
> > > Ciaran is NOT a troll. He is not how most will make him out to be,
> > > and should likely have never been driven away from Gentoo. Ciaran,
> > > and many others, all of Exherbo, Funtoo, and others including myself
> > > should be reunited.  
> > 
> > I think you may be interpreting this wrongly and tamiko didn't intend
> > to insult Ciaran at all. I might've actually sent a similar mail myself
> > if tamiko hadn't been faster. Ciaran's mails to the gentoo MLs are
> > always worth reading because they either contain interesting technical
> > remarks or hilarious jokes. What's wrong with acknowledging that?  
> 
> Very likely but my focus wasn't so much on the terms or otherwise. It was just 
> a good opportunity for me to express something I have long felt.

That's one of the problems with you. You take everything as good
opportunity to express what you have long felt, and divert every topic
into your hurt feelings and how Gentoo is bad, except for you and some
randomly chosen people who have left Gentoo... and well, unlike you, I
don't feel like repeating the story on yet another thread where you
have replied. Write a book, make millions selling it and let others
live peacefully.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny
<http://dev.gentoo.org/~mgorny/>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michał Górny]

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On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 17:09:09 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 10:29:13 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:
> >
> > Considering the nature of comrel operation, I don't think a public
> > mailing list is an appropriate medium for this conversation. In fact,
> > I'm not even sure if you already haven't disclosed confidential
> > information.  
> 
>  I have always been a fan of operating in public. I question things that must 
> be kept confidential. This is about open source software after all. Not to 
> mention an open source project, and non profit foundation. This was how I felt 
> when I was a Trustee, and did not like discussing anything related to Gentoo 
> or the Foundation in private then.

There is a difference between operating in public from day one,
and asking someone to expose possibly-confidential facts.
For the latter, you need agreement of all interested parties.

> > However, in order to hopefully satisfy your curiosity, I'm going to
> > tell you something general: there are people who can do a lot of harm
> > to Gentoo without breaking any obvious rules.  
> 
> IMHO there are more people harming Gentoo that are part of Gentoo than anyone 
> that has been cast outside of Gentoo for any reason, motivated or forced.
> 
> The general attitude expressed in this reply is exactly that. It is not 
> inviting for others and IMHO shows how those that are part of Gentoo are 
> harming it much more than anyone driven away.

Did you ever estimate how much harm to actual Gentoo development do
never-ending mailing list threads that bring no point whatsoever except
for provoking a lot of developers to reply, who would otherwise be
doing technical work on Gentoo?

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny
<http://dev.gentoo.org/~mgorny/>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Nick Vinson]

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On 11/30/2016 08:10 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> I'm not going to mince words here: why did we kick out a contributor who
>> was helping the Gentoo cause? I've looked over logs that were shared
>> with me and the worst thing I could find was an off-color joke. Worse
>> things occur on these mailing lists that never see Comrel's inbox, so
>> why this?
> 
> This does not sound like you have the full picture of the years over
> which Ian attempted to contribute to Gentoo. I was involved for a long
> time, basically from the start of Ian's tenure as a developer, and I
> fully support his being kicked out.
> 
>> What I'm looking for is undeniable proof that Ian was irrevocably
>> damaging and threatening to Gentoo, to justify his dismissal and
>> accompanying ban. If such information will not or cannot be provided,
>> then it indicates to me that there *is* no proof, and without it I will
>> call for his reinstatement for the next council meeting.
> 
> As I'm not a member of ComRel or Council or whatever and I haven't
> kept any logs, I think you're being to binary about this. Even if
> there is no single thing that shows Ian "irrevocably damaging and

Zlg didn't ask for the proverbial "smoking gun".  I doubt seriously
anyone expects there to be one specific awful thing that is just beyond
redemption.  More likely (and zlg can point out if I'm wrong here), I
expect zlg is wanting to see the totality of evidence.  Given that his
goal is to request Ian's reinstatement, it makes sense to me that he'd
want to know what he has to argue against.

> threatening" Gentoo, there can still be a reason to prevent him from
> participating in some of our venues. I think the problem with Ian is
> that, as hard as he may try to contribute, I found his contributions
> to be net negative to the distribution. As such, I do think his
> presence is damaging to Gentoo. (And please note that I initially

Could you provide specifics?  Maybe some emails supporting this
position?  Even if you don't have them any more, I would think the
archives would contain a few copies to support your opinion.

If nothing else, could you at least provide enough information so those
interested would have an idea of where to "dig"?

> encouraged him to join us, and, as lead of the Python team at the
> time, spent significant time ironing out issues that arose from his
> attempts at contribution.)
> 

This sounds to me as if you're basing your opinion of Ian solely on your
interactions with him while you lead the Python project.  If that's a
fair statement, I find it curious that you would believe those
interactions were so negative that they should be used to justify
keeping someone out of Gentoo some two years later, but not provide any
specific account of those interactions.  Even if some of the finer
details are a bit hazy, I would think that those interactions would be
vivid enough to describe here.  I'm also confident that someone else,
would be able to corroborate those claims.

- Nicholas Vinson (username234)

>> I am not alone in requesting accountability from the top of Gentoo. I
>> will take the results of this conversation into consideration when it's
>> time to vote next year, as Gentoo is suffering from staffing issues and
>> practices like this actively damage Gentoo's ability to attract and
>> retain contributors. I have personally met people who have suffered as a
>> result of this debacle; people willing and eager to help us out that are
>> still struggling to join our ranks. So what gives?
>>
>> This distribution should not turn away anyone willing (and able) to
>> help. This is a critical flaw that could accelerate our decline.
> 
> I respectfully but strongly disagree. Some people that are willing and
> able to help can in the end turn out to be negative contributors. It
> is imperative for our community that we can identify those people and
> minimize their impact on the distribution both socially and
> technically.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dirkjan
> 


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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:17:09 AM EST Michał Górny wrote:
>
> That's one of the problems with you. 

The problem with you is you are not very personable and I do not see people 
flocking to want to work with you... Really not sure who you think you are, 
when you approach people such as this. Must be a culture difference.

> You take everything as good
> opportunity to express what you have long felt, and divert every topic
> into your hurt feelings and how Gentoo is bad, except for you and some
> randomly chosen people who have left Gentoo... and well, unlike you, I
> don't feel like repeating the story on yet another thread where you
> have replied. Write a book, make millions selling it and let others
> live peacefully.

What are you adding here? Anything positive? Anything relevant to others on 
the list? Surely sounds like allot of personal opinion directed at me, 
personal insults, and nothing beneficial for the project.

Why you cannot simply avoid commenting when you see my name. It is people like 
you who go out of your way to make negative remarks towards others that is 
causing this negative atmosphere in Gentoo....

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:46:14 AM EST Michał Górny wrote:
>
> There is a difference between operating in public from day one,
> and asking someone to expose possibly-confidential facts.
> For the latter, you need agreement of all interested parties.

Please this is Gentoo, what really needs to be confidential? This is not 
proprietary stuff. This is not governmental secretive work. Nothing need be 
confidential. Point blank period.

Only exception as stated is matters of technical security vulnerabilities till 
addressed or a solution available.
 
> Did you ever estimate how much harm to actual Gentoo development do
> never-ending mailing list threads that bring no point whatsoever except
> for provoking a lot of developers to reply, who would otherwise be
> doing technical work on Gentoo?

Given the fact Gentoo mailing lists go inactive for periods of time. Given the 
fact that lots of things have issues no one notices. You are assuming Gentoo 
is much more popular that it is.

You are also assuming I am not doing any work....

If I wasn't limited to commenting on lists, Maybe Gentoo would be benefiting 
from my work. Work that needs to be done per things you have proposed but 
expect others to do the leg work like EAPI 6 changes etc.

Just because you get no benefit from a lengthy thread on a mailing list. Do not 
assume others or the larger community has no interest.

Sorry Michał Górny Gentoo is bigger than just YOU. You are not the sole 
developer or community member. Deal with it!

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Thursday, December 1, 2016 7:15:38 AM EST William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> On Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:46:14 AM EST Michał Górny wrote:
> >
> > Did you ever estimate how much harm to actual Gentoo development do
> > never-ending mailing list threads that bring no point whatsoever except
> > for provoking a lot of developers to reply, who would otherwise be
> > doing technical work on Gentoo?
> 
> Given the fact Gentoo mailing lists go inactive for periods of time. Given
> the fact that lots of things have issues no one notices. You are assuming
> Gentoo is much more popular that it is.
>

So this BS logic is likely part of that which went into moderating me long ago 
on -nfp. You can see any posts there are 100% public and any CoC violations at 
best were very minor.

Lets take Michał Górny about mailing list activity and stats. Once I left the 
-nfp list, it died as it did before. It is of no surprise to me many things 
have not changed or happened since then.

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/

Years of inactivity with very few posts. The most active period ~2008 when I 
was a Trustee. Things were happening like reinstating the foundation, public 
review of by laws which were later adopted, and a bank account was obtained. 
Thus list activity directly reflected activity in the foundation. No list 
activity, nothing much going on in foundation and less with the community. 
Hardly a sign of work being done, or mailing list activity causing work to not 
be done.

Had I not been driven away the -nfp list and community would likely still be 
active. But I was the problem. I went away and things died in my absence. it 
really is not a good argument and facts do not support that. Even less work 
was done in my absence despite list activity being minimal.

Now lets take a look at Project, very few posts before I showed up in 
November. I was NOT the only one posting or commenting. Which again shows the 
community coming alive and communicating.

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/

I am also quite shocked at how little activity is taking place on -dev mailing 
list. Arguable the most important and popular list of any. But the numbers do 
not seem as off there, It does seem like months in the thousands or close are 
lesser in recent years. But over all stats seem to vary heavily historically.

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/

We could go further and compare monthly list activity to monthly commit 
activity. I think this is stupid. Conversation is only good. The only people 
seeking to prevent conversation are those trying to preserve or keep the 
status quo.

That the same people are talking about things being confidential and wanting to 
reduce mailing list activity is a bit concerning.

If an optional mailing list for a volunteer project distracts you from doing  
your work. That to me seems like a personal issue than anything to do with a 
list being over active. Lists should be active, it is a sign of an active 
community.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michał Górny]

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On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 07:10:03 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:17:09 AM EST Michał Górny wrote:
> > You take everything as good
> > opportunity to express what you have long felt, and divert every topic
> > into your hurt feelings and how Gentoo is bad, except for you and some
> > randomly chosen people who have left Gentoo... and well, unlike you, I
> > don't feel like repeating the story on yet another thread where you
> > have replied. Write a book, make millions selling it and let others
> > live peacefully.  
> 
> What are you adding here? Anything positive? Anything relevant to others on 
> the list? Surely sounds like allot of personal opinion directed at me, 
> personal insults, and nothing beneficial for the project.

I am serious. Please write it all down in a single, coherent piece.
The whole story would certainly be of interest to many of us. But if
you just give short fragments of it in various posts, we are unable to
keep track of it and have no clue what did exactly happen and in what
order.

> Why you cannot simply avoid commenting when you see my name. It is people like 
> you who go out of your way to make negative remarks towards others that is 
> causing this negative atmosphere in Gentoo....

I try to. But then, there is always at least one person who replies to
you and then I have 15 mails in my inbox, and I have to figure out if
any of them has any added value.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny
<http://dev.gentoo.org/~mgorny/>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michał Górny]

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On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 07:15:38 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:46:14 AM EST Michał Górny wrote:
> >
> > There is a difference between operating in public from day one,
> > and asking someone to expose possibly-confidential facts.
> > For the latter, you need agreement of all interested parties.  
> 
> Please this is Gentoo, what really needs to be confidential? This is not 
> proprietary stuff. This is not governmental secretive work. Nothing need be 
> confidential. Point blank period.

Well, since you suggested cultural differences already... I don't know
what your culture suggests but if someone confides in me, I don't go
repeating what he told me on a public mailing list.

> > Did you ever estimate how much harm to actual Gentoo development do
> > never-ending mailing list threads that bring no point whatsoever except
> > for provoking a lot of developers to reply, who would otherwise be
> > doing technical work on Gentoo?  
> 
> Given the fact Gentoo mailing lists go inactive for periods of time. Given the 
> fact that lots of things have issues no one notices. You are assuming Gentoo 
> is much more popular that it is.
> 
> You are also assuming I am not doing any work....
> 
> If I wasn't limited to commenting on lists, Maybe Gentoo would be benefiting 
> from my work. Work that needs to be done per things you have proposed but 
> expect others to do the leg work like EAPI 6 changes etc.
> 
> Just because you get no benefit from a lengthy thread on a mailing list. Do not 
> assume others or the larger community has no interest.
> 
> Sorry Michał Górny Gentoo is bigger than just YOU. You are not the sole 
> developer or community member. Deal with it!

Did you ever count how many community members have unsubscribed from
the lists because of your posts? Maybe I'm one of the few who are blunt
enough to tell it straight to you but this is what's happening.
And it's not limited to you, of course.

Why I don't do that? Because I still want to have some influence
on Gentoo. I don't want to learn that someone did something silly
because everyone ignored the thread, so obviously there was no
opposition.

Of course you could consider that what you're doing has some positive
effect. For example, Gentoo is gaining new mailing lists so that people
can discuss on very specific topics without having to filter out all
the noise.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny
<http://dev.gentoo.org/~mgorny/>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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 We have never had good interactions. If you do not have something on a 
neutral technical nature to discuss with me. Again I will repeat. Why do you 
bother replying to my posts and purposely seeking to interact with me rather 
than avoid?

I do my best to avoid you, please try to the same, thank you!

On Thursday, December 1, 2016 4:41:53 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:
>
> Well, since you suggested cultural differences already... I don't know
> what your culture suggests but if someone confides in me, I don't go
> repeating what he told me on a public mailing list.

We come from different countries, thus different cultures. What may not be 
rude or impolite to yours may be to mine. Thus your approach most times coming 
off as not friendly, rude, insulting, and not inviting for others to want to 
be on the receiving end of Michal Gorny's comments....

With regard to your implication. If something is not requested to be kept 
private, I tend to not think what they are saying need be hidden from the 
world. I also believe knowing who I am speaking with, I am not sharing 
anything they would actually mind. Thus your just making something out of 
nothing. Assuming another might take issue.

This happened before with a post I made about Daniel Robbins. It was falsely 
reported to Daniel. He was angry at first. Then we discussed it, and he THANKED 
ME for making a private email public. He also apologized for having been 
mislead about me sharing private information publicly.
  
> Did you ever count how many community members have unsubscribed from
> the lists because of your posts? Maybe I'm one of the few who are blunt
> enough to tell it straight to you but this is what's happening.
> And it's not limited to you, of course.

Do you have any numbers from infra to confirm this?
At the same time do people start to subscribe from your posts?

I know for a fact based on interacting with you. How you conduct yourself will 
drive way more people away from Gentoo than it will ever attract.

You can say what ever you like about me, and think what ever. But I can prove 
you wrong at many turns with facts. Like that I provided on -nfp activity or 
lack there of before and after me. The same goes for Java. There was no Java 
team when I joined. Most all devs that were on that team came after me. I 
helped organize meetings and many things that fell apart in my absence.

We have very different styles. 

> Why I don't do that? Because I still want to have some influence
> on Gentoo. I don't want to learn that someone did something silly
> because everyone ignored the thread, so obviously there was no
> opposition.

From my perspective you seem to want to run Gentoo. You seem to want to drive 
the agenda on many things. You seem to think you are the ultimate authority. 
You also seem to realize how abrasive and unfriendly you are at times. Either 
intentional or not. It does not make working with you pleasant in anyway.

At times when I have tried to get your help, you provided very little. At that 
same time, I emailed Diego Elio Pettenò on auto tools related questions. He 
was VERY friendly and helpful. I had not had any contact with him in a long 
time. He was overseas in Asia very busy but still made time to reply to my 
email with an in depth reply that took time.

> Of course you could consider that what you're doing has some positive
> effect. For example, Gentoo is gaining new mailing lists so that people
> can discuss on very specific topics without having to filter out all
> the noise.

Mentioned by 1 person... How many are subscribed to this list? What percentage 
of list subscribers is represented but that comment?

For all that you accuse me of, I recommend you self reflect on your own 
actions, behavior and demeanor. If I had not had a history with Gentoo, and 
did not have many systems running it for some time that is not easy to switch 
to another. I would NEVER join Gentoo seeing people like you around.

At the same time, when you were talking about leaving Gentoo I said stay. Do I 
like Michał Górny. No! I do not like Michał Górny. I think he is very rude, 
unfriendly, impolite, disrespectful, and disagree with much of how he conducts 
himself.

HOWEVER, Michał Górny does have allot of technical skills to contribute to 
Gentoo. So despite his many social flaws, which I can overlook and deal with. 
He should remain a part of Gentoo for technical benefits and reasons.

There is no better proof than that, for why comrel need not exist, and why 
people can work with and be around those they dislike. It is called being a 
professional, an adult...

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Thursday, December 1, 2016 4:27:12 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:
>
> I am serious. Please write it all down in a single, coherent piece.
> The whole story would certainly be of interest to many of us. But if
> you just give short fragments of it in various posts, we are unable to
> keep track of it and have no clue what did exactly happen and in what
> order.

You never will, it wasn't understood in the past. If people do not care enough 
to research the matter and formulate their own opinion. Anything produced will 
not really matter, because they do not really care.

If you do look, it does not take much, and my 1st email about returning months 
ago pretty much said it all. People did not pay attention because they do not 
care.

I do not expect anyone involved in Gentoo to really care about social matters 
effecting another. This is a technical project. Most do not even care about 
other parts of Gentoo they are not using or working in, technically. They 
surely won't care about social things.

I also was not the only one and people like Alec Warner, Jorge Manuel B. S. 
Vicetto, and others were around then and now. They could also shed light but 
remain silent. I assume because they know the whole thing was wrong, very 
wrong. But it might embarrass them and/or change things in Gentoo. Things they 
do not want to happen, thus they stay silent.

If anything i did was that bad, it would be pretty easy to point to that 
specifically. That applies to others as well not just myself. Why I say much of 
this social stuff is BS if things cannot be provided publicly about how people 
have breached the CoC in public mediums.
 
> > Why you cannot simply avoid commenting when you see my name. It is people
> > like you who go out of your way to make negative remarks towards others
> > that is causing this negative atmosphere in Gentoo....
> 
> I try to. But then, there is always at least one person who replies to
> you and then I have 15 mails in my inbox, and I have to figure out if
> any of them has any added value.

Given how you have treated me anytime we interact. Just assume if my name is 
involved it is of no benefit to you.... Seriously been one of the rudest people 
I have come across in open source in some time. I do not mean that as 
offensive but constructive criticism. Please self reflect. Read  your comments 
as if someone typed that to you. I really do not think you would like how you 
treat others.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 11/30/2016 08:10 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> I'm not going to mince words here: why did we kick out a contributor who
>> was helping the Gentoo cause? I've looked over logs that were shared
>> with me and the worst thing I could find was an off-color joke. Worse
>> things occur on these mailing lists that never see Comrel's inbox, so
>> why this?
> 
> This does not sound like you have the full picture of the years over
> which Ian attempted to contribute to Gentoo. I was involved for a long
> time, basically from the start of Ian's tenure as a developer, and I
> fully support his being kicked out.

I fully concede I don't have the full picture, and a lot of the
reasoning for that is it's kept so hush-hush. Naturally, my first
reaction to secrecy is to find out why it's treated so specially when a
lot of our affairs are left to public discourse. I'm open to new
evidence and facts; any probing I've done into this subject has been met
with hand-waving, which imo doesn't engender trust among us. So rather
than beat around the bush, I chose to speak directly and candidly.

>> What I'm looking for is undeniable proof that Ian was irrevocably
>> damaging and threatening to Gentoo, to justify his dismissal and
>> accompanying ban. If such information will not or cannot be provided,
>> then it indicates to me that there *is* no proof, and without it I will
>> call for his reinstatement for the next council meeting.
> 
> As I'm not a member of ComRel or Council or whatever and I haven't
> kept any logs, I think you're being to binary about this. Even if
> there is no single thing that shows Ian "irrevocably damaging and
> threatening" Gentoo, there can still be a reason to prevent him from
> participating in some of our venues. I think the problem with Ian is
> that, as hard as he may try to contribute, I found his contributions
> to be net negative to the distribution. As such, I do think his
> presence is damaging to Gentoo. (And please note that I initially
> encouraged him to join us, and, as lead of the Python team at the
> time, spent significant time ironing out issues that arose from his
> attempts at contribution.)

I can understand a stance like that; are there bugs or a history of
reversions that I can reference to corroborate this? At the core of it,
there should be clear evidence that his contributions hurt or otherwise
make maintaining the distribution difficult. I hope that if I were in
that sort of situation, that efforts would be made to illustrate why my
contributions were subpar and steps I could take to improve them in the
long run. So if Ian's contributions really weren't helping us, there
should be a history that indicates such.

>> I am not alone in requesting accountability from the top of Gentoo. I
>> will take the results of this conversation into consideration when it's
>> time to vote next year, as Gentoo is suffering from staffing issues and
>> practices like this actively damage Gentoo's ability to attract and
>> retain contributors. I have personally met people who have suffered as a
>> result of this debacle; people willing and eager to help us out that are
>> still struggling to join our ranks. So what gives?
>>
>> This distribution should not turn away anyone willing (and able) to
>> help. This is a critical flaw that could accelerate our decline.
> 
> I respectfully but strongly disagree. Some people that are willing and
> able to help can in the end turn out to be negative contributors. It
> is imperative for our community that we can identify those people and
> minimize their impact on the distribution both socially and
> technically.

I think I understand where you're coming from -- sometimes people can be
toxic in their attitudes and make contributing a pain for other
developers. I've not really seen any evidence of Ian being that type of
person, however. Some off-color jokes that may have been in poor taste,
maybe a misunderstanding or two, but that doesn't strike me as a big
problem. We're a worldwide community, and naturally there may be
language or cultural barriers or norms that clash. I think that's
completely normal and expected. It's how we deal with those differences
that gauges our social merit.

If we're wanting to keep someone out -- be it Ian or someone else --
*some* sort of evidence or reasoning is necessary. Evidence that shows a
given person doesn't have the distribution's best interests in mind or
evidence that someone can't work well with (many) others. Note the
plural; sometimes two particular people just don't get along. Rather
than expelling one of the two, I think it's fair to expect developers to
acknowledge each others' differences but respect each other as people.
If they can't respect each other, then they should be able to work on
their own projects without harassing each other.

Other cases like William's departure, Diego's, Ciaran's, etc are also of
interest to me (I will save those for some other time), because our
ability to handle conflict will reflect on us as a distribution and
knowing the history of the organization one is part of is important.
It's hard to know where to go next if you don't know where you've been.
I hope that viewpoint makes sense to someone besides me.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dirkjan
> 

(apologies if I misunderstood something; still haven't had my coffee yet)
-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6


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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Jason A. Donenfeld]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:35 PM, Ciaran McCreesh
<ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 05:43:46 -0800
> Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> This distribution should not turn away anyone willing (and able) to
>> help. This is a critical flaw that could accelerate our decline.
>
> Gentoo is about the community, not about the product, and things have
> been this way for quite a while now. Most of the Gentoo community don't
> use Gentoo the distribution, just Gentoo the social medium, and any
> threat to this must be eliminated. That's why Gentoo likes forums,
> wikis, and long lists of emerge options, rather than high quality
> documentation and good defaults: the more confusion and misinformation
> there is out there, the more forum posts it takes to resolve a problem,
> and the better the community is as a result.

Anybody this hilarious should pretty clearly just be elected king.

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Gregory Woodbury]

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Is Gentoo the community, or is Gentoo the distribution?

This is a bit long and rambling:

tl;dr    Organizations should avoid bureaucracy and do as much as
           possible in the spirit of open source.

Undoubtedly, I am part of the community; because I use the distribution
directly
as my OS of choice. My contributions are limited by the fact that I am not a
developer; not that I do not contribute at all. The stuff I do do is mainly
historical
and in conversations with those who can make changes.

I have been around long enough to see the rise and fall of many distros and
many batches of in-fighting and arguments in many of them.  From my
observations,
decisions and strategies that are not out front and in the open cause more
trouble
than public disagreements over issues and inter-person disagreements. A
fair
number of projects/distros have "died" due to "invisible" strategic changes
than
have disbanded due to public "flamewars" between people. Some promising
distros have "died" because they never obtained the needed critical mass of
users and developers to continue beyond the founding stage. Quite a few have
lost key people because of changes in strategic directions that simply
appeared
from "nowhere" without proper public discussion and planning.

It is obvious that a distribution depends on both the actual "product"
AND the people who make and support it.

One thing that attracted me to Gentoo, even while I was primarily involved
with a different major distro project, was that it was high quality and
very transparent
in discussions of its goals and methods.  Over the last few years, this
transparency
has faded as more formalism and bureaucracy has been developing.

One of the main problems with bureaucracy is that those who are in
positions of responsibility tend to get caught up in the preservation of the
bureaucratic system and their place within it, rather than in providing
good
"service" to the folks that use the system. They will point to the rules and
proper procedures that need to be followed instead of getting a problem
solved in the most direct and efficient manner available.  Adding privacy
concerns about the way the bureaucracy works internally further complicates
the situation by often making it impossible for a user to find out who to
interact with and what procedures/rules need to be complied with in order
to get something done. [This, of course, is most evident in governmental
bureaucracies, when it becomes "politics".]

This is NOT to say that organization is bad. The problems of anarchy is
that it too leads to nothing getting done because no one is responsible for
anything other that what they want to do.

The purpose of organization is to provide a structure whereby people become
responsible for some aspect of providing the services, and they do the
necessary
things to see that problems get solved. If they can't solve the problems by
themselves, they will know (due to the organization) that other resources
are
available to help out with the solution.  This implies that the
organization should
be transparent and public, even if sometimes someone has to do something
that they might not want to do. Even in an all volunteer organization, when
someone
accepts a responsibility to provide some, or part of, a service they will
do so
even if it might not be just what they want to do at any given time. They
may just
have to suck it up and do it, or find someone else who will accept the
responsibily
to solve the problem. At some point, the organization itself may have to
react
and say that "this needs to be done" and find a way to get it done. This
should
be part of the organizations culture, either formally, such as a code of
conduct,
or informally by encouragement to do the right thing by the organizers.

All of this should be obvious to folks who have been out in the working
world,
be it academic, technical, or commercial. It will also be clear to folks
who have
had to deal with their governments for more than small and simple stuff.

So, as far as Gentoo: I think the distro has become a bit too bureaucratic
and
has lost some of the will to get things done. To salvage the project, it
will need
to open up and focus on getting things done rather than to focus on being a
community that doesn't want to offend anybody. I don't keep track of names
of specific people in general, since that makes it too easy to think "oh,
that is
just ______'s style of thinking/doing" and to dismiss their failure to
accept the
responsibilities they have taken on.

I agree with several stated opinions that everything should be open and out
in public (with obvious temporary exceptions for security issues. Gentoo is
not
dealing with any sort of proprietary secrets, and the spirit of open source
should
be the guiding principle.

-- 
G.Wolfe Woodbury
redwolfe@gmail.com

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Gregory Woodbury <redwolfe@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So, as far as Gentoo: I think the distro has become a bit too bureaucratic
> and
> has lost some of the will to get things done. To salvage the project, it
> will need
> to open up and focus on getting things done rather than to focus on being a
> community that doesn't want to offend anybody.

So, while I agree with the majority of your post in general, I don't
see how it really fits Gentoo.  Most of those in leadership have been
fairly up-front that they're much more concerned about pragmatism than
rules.  There are certainly reasons to have
rules/guidelines/documentation/etc, but we'll never have a perfect set
of rules and we don't let written rules stand in the way of doing the
right thing.

When somebody messes up, comrel deals with it.  If they have a problem
with comrel the council deals with it.  If the community has a problem
with the council they can vote for a different council.  I don't
really see a lot of bureaucracy here.

In fact, I think this is one of the largest misconceptions I see in
debates on this general topic.  People seem to think that if they
could just see all the data they could point out where some reasoning
was wrong and change the Council's minds, as if there is some kind of
logical argument at stake which must be won.

I haven't seen many appeals, but when I vote to uphold a comrel
decision typically it is fairly obvious that something wrong was done,
and I'm more interested in whether the person involved acknowledges
that what they did was wrong and that they intend to not continue to
do it.

In the well over 100 posts and IRC logs that this general topic has
attracted I've seen all kinds of things:

1.  Arguments about whether complaints about people should be handled
in public or private.

2.  Arguments about whether we should be concerned about anybody's
non-technical behavior at all.

3.  Arguments about the process.

4.  Arguments that Gentoo would be better off if only person A were a developer.

5.  Arguments that Gentoo would be better off if only persons B and C
were still developers, apparently setting aside the fact that when
person C last quit they expressed that it was in part out of
frustration that person B was even allowed to post on the lists.

6.  Arguments that because we haven't kicked out everybody who does
anything wrong we can't kick out anybody who does anything wrong.

7.  Suggestions that there are conspiracies or personal biases or that
Gentoo devs don't care about anybody who isn't a dev or that nobody is
interested in recruiting/leading/whatevering.

8.  People complaining that Comrel does too much.

9.  People complaining that comrel does too little.

The one thing I haven't seen is anybody saying, "Ok, maybe I blew it,
and I'm sorry, I promise I won't do it again."  And, honestly, when I
see an appeal that is probably the one thing I'm most interested in
seeing.

Sure, if there were no evidence that somebody did something wrong then
I would back them up in an appeal.  However, the fact is that most of
us blow it at one point or another and the thing that
recruiters/comrel/council/etc end up looking for is signs that
somebody is committed to following the CoC in the future, regardless
of what has happened in the past.


-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Thursday, December 1, 2016 6:48:33 PM EST Rich Freeman wrote:
>
> The one thing I haven't seen is anybody saying, "Ok, maybe I blew it,
> and I'm sorry, I promise I won't do it again."  And, honestly, when I
> see an appeal that is probably the one thing I'm most interested in
> seeing.

Do you ever wonder why despite different situations and reasons no one is 
saying that? Think about it for a bit. What would cause you to not say the 
above?

That right there is the biggest issue. That comment is one sided. It is 
expected from the "miss-behaving developer", but it never comes from Gentoo.
I have never seen anyone in Comrel/devrel say the above.

Ok maybe I blew it and mishandled a situation. Maybe we should not have 
censored someone on IRC/MailingList, etc. Maybe we overreacted with punishment 
etc and made a situation much bigger. Maybe we did not need to get involved.

Just because you dial 911 and police show up. Does not mean they do anything.

The blame always falls on the individual. Never others, or the process. It is 
very one sided. I have seen far more mistakes on the other side. Which is why 
there is no way I would ever say the above. Others likely have their own 
similar reasoning.

Do as  I say, not as I do, no way Jose!!!

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 7:45 PM, William L. Thomson Jr.
<wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
>
> That right there is the biggest issue. That comment is one sided. It is
> expected from the "miss-behaving developer", but it never comes from Gentoo.
> I have never seen anyone in Comrel/devrel say the above.
>
> Ok maybe I blew it and mishandled a situation. Maybe we should not have
> censored someone on IRC/MailingList, etc. Maybe we overreacted with punishment
> etc and made a situation much bigger. Maybe we did not need to get involved.
>

If I ever feel that I've handled a situation incorrectly in my role on
the Council, I'll be sure to apologize.

I've stated how I feel about the CoC in general in my manifesto
several times.  Hopefully nobody is too shocked that I maintain a
similar position still.  I'm happy to revise it as needed in the
future, but ultimately if individuals appeal cases to the Council, and
I see evidence that they weren't following the CoC, and I am not
convinced that they intend to follow the CoC in the future, then I'm
not going to interfere with Comrel.  That is a general statement, and
those who feel that it applies to themselves can apply it as
appropriate.

It isn't like this happens very often.  About the only thing that
Comrel could to not "overreact" (if that is how we deem such cases) is
to never kick anybody out for any reason at all.  I doubt it has
happened more than a half-dozen times or so in the entire history of
Gentoo, though I can't vouch personally for its early history.

I get that your position is that we simply shouldn't enforce a code of
conduct.  You're welcome to hold that opinion, and I'd never advocate
censoring it.  However, it isn't the opinion I hold, and that is
something I've always been up-front about, as have a few others on the
Council.  Ultimately it is a call the developers get to make in the
end by choosing who they vote for.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Ian Delaney]

On Thu, 1 Dec 2016 18:48:33 -0500
Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Gregory Woodbury <redwolfe@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > So, as far as Gentoo: I think the distro has become a bit too
> > bureaucratic and
> > has lost some of the will to get things done. To salvage the
> > project, it will need
> > to open up and focus on getting things done rather than to focus on
> > being a community that doesn't want to offend anybody.  
> 
> So, while I agree with the majority of your post in general, I don't
> see how it really fits Gentoo.  Most of those in leadership have been
> fairly up-front that they're much more concerned about pragmatism than
> rules.  There are certainly reasons to have
> rules/guidelines/documentation/etc, but we'll never have a perfect set
> of rules and we don't let written rules stand in the way of doing the
> right thing.
> 

WHAT ?

> When somebody messes up, comrel deals with it.  If they have a problem
> with comrel the council deals with it.  If the community has a problem
> with the council they can vote for a different council.  I don't
> really see a lot of bureaucracy here.
> 

WHAT ?

> In fact, I think this is one of the largest misconceptions I see in
> debates on this general topic.  


You might

> People seem to think that if they
> could just see all the data they could point out where some reasoning
> was wrong and change the Council's minds, as if there is some kind of
> logical argument at stake which must be won.
> 

Well yes.

> I haven't seen many appeals, but when I vote to uphold a comrel
> decision typically it is fairly obvious that something wrong was done,
> and I'm more interested in whether the person involved acknowledges
> that what they did was wrong and that they intend to not continue to
> do it.
> 

WHAT?

> In the well over 100 posts and IRC logs that this general topic has
> attracted I've seen all kinds of things:
> 
> 1.  Arguments about whether complaints about people should be handled
> in public or private.
> 
> 2.  Arguments about whether we should be concerned about anybody's
> non-technical behavior at all.
> 
> 3.  Arguments about the process.
> 
> 4.  Arguments that Gentoo would be better off if only person A were a
> developer.
> 
> 5.  Arguments that Gentoo would be better off if only persons B and C
> were still developers, apparently setting aside the fact that when
> person C last quit they expressed that it was in part out of
> frustration that person B was even allowed to post on the lists.
> 
> 6.  Arguments that because we haven't kicked out everybody who does
> anything wrong we can't kick out anybody who does anything wrong.
> 
> 7.  Suggestions that there are conspiracies or personal biases or that
> Gentoo devs don't care about anybody who isn't a dev or that nobody is
> interested in recruiting/leading/whatevering.
> 
> 8.  People complaining that Comrel does too much.
> 
> 9.  People complaining that comrel does too little.
> 
> The one thing I haven't seen is anybody saying, "Ok, maybe I blew it,
> and I'm sorry, I promise I won't do it again."  And, honestly, when I
> see an appeal that is probably the one thing I'm most interested in
> seeing.
> 
> Sure, if there were no evidence that somebody did something wrong then
> I would back them up in an appeal.  However, the fact is that most of
> us blow it at one point or another and the thing that
> recruiters/comrel/council/etc end up looking for is signs that
> somebody is committed to following the CoC in the future, regardless
> of what has happened in the past.
> 
> 

My oh my oh my. How many times do I have to say it. Once more this time
in the ML. I DIDN'T SEE THE EVIDENCE. YOU REFUSED TO SHOW IT TO ME
DESPITE A FORMAL REQUEST via "SUBJECT: request for data" leaving me to
appeal by reverse engineering and deductive reasoning, only to have
ffffalll guy smirk and insist my detective work was all wrong as usual.

So still you expect me to own up to something I do not know that I did.
What I can say with confidence is that the data used as 'evidence' in
the tribunal called comrel was /query data logs commandeered by comrel
or supplied by a user still protected behind the curtain of
confidentiality, thereby breaching the trust that IS /query message, to
the convenience of the submitters and to comrel, who said that's fine
we got it; let's get sentencing.

NO. Do not expect me to bow to that level of abuse of process.
Still you put the outcome of a broken and questionable and now
openly challenged system as high priority over the broken and
questionable and now openly challenged system.

A new term for this: pants on head

There will be no meaningful reform until this wrong is righted and the
system that made this outcome repaired. By all appearances that means it
will NOT occur with you as a member of council, and indeed likely most
other current members for whom you speak.

Everything you have said and done has displayed servitude to rule and
protocol to the point of expulsion of an actively contributing and
respected developer trying to support gentoo and its users. And still
you attempt claim to act by pragmatism and defend the indefensible.
The concocted election of February, the replies of the installed
councillor were NOTHING but citations of rule and process to justify
the election and the process. I took MANY prompts by concerned users to
get him to volunteer something other than rule and quotes from the
gentoo bible to explain any rationale for it being called. No-one was
fooled. Bureaucracy lead and dictated everything to do with it.

I have patience.

-- 
kind regards

Ian Delaney

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Thursday, December 1, 2016 8:02:18 PM EST Rich Freeman wrote:
> I'm happy to revise it as needed in the
> future, but ultimately if individuals appeal cases to the Council

You really love this appeal to council concept. I maintain the position such 
should never be necessary and is a WASTE of everyone's time. I rather do work 
than waste time with such.

I guess you haven't better things to do so rather waste your time handling 
appeals than making sure they never occur. Never seen someone advocate and 
talk about an appeal process so much.

> It isn't like this happens very often.  

I do not believe there has ever been such disruption to Gentoo by any 
individual or group to have ever justified Comrel and the like.

> I get that your position is that we simply shouldn't enforce a code of
> conduct. 

My opinion is the CoC and enforcement has destroyed the Gentoo community and 
is slowly destroying the distro. To many fail to realize everything they hope 
to accomplish and protect via CoC is being ripped apart by the CoC and 
enforcement.

Do work, stop this social nonsense really!!!

Disban comrel, get rid of the CoC. Focus more on getting more people involved 
in Gentoo. Use novel technical concepts like Email and IRC filters to ingore 
people who bother you. This person A made me leave the mailing list or Gentoo. 
Really I guess you did not get much benefit from Gentoo. If you have true 
technical benefit you cannot leave and will deal with what ever for a FREE 
operating system that is pretty complex.

Really, stop acting like this is a bunch of children that need chaperones to 
babysit and make sure everyone behaves and treats each other nicely. What ever 
happened to having thick skin in tech.

Freaking emo generation, lift up your dresses, grab your balls and man up!!!
No offense to LGBT.... PC nonsense....

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Ian Delaney]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 17:10:36 +0100
Dirkjan Ochtman <djc@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> > I'm not going to mince words here: why did we kick out a
> > contributor who was helping the Gentoo cause? I've looked over logs
> > that were shared with me and the worst thing I could find was an
> > off-color joke. Worse things occur on these mailing lists that
> > never see Comrel's inbox, so why this?  
> 
> This does not sound like you have the full picture of the years over
> which Ian attempted to contribute to Gentoo. I was involved for a long
> time, basically from the start of Ian's tenure as a developer, and I
> fully support his being kicked out.
> 

Well you would. And I wonder if I should critique your history of rare
presence in IRC, indecisiveness and blatant intolerance to simple
expression of innocent humour because you didn't even recognise it,
mistaking it as many do as sarcasm, the catch all culprit for all things
alternate to straight and serious. 

> > What I'm looking for is undeniable proof that Ian was irrevocably
> > damaging and threatening to Gentoo, to justify his dismissal and
> > accompanying ban.

And it absent here I believe.

> > If such information will not or cannot be provided, then it
> > indicates to me that there *is* no proof, and without it I will
> > call for his reinstatement for the next council meeting.  
> 
> As I'm not a member of ComRel or Council or whatever and I haven't
> kept any logs, 

I have them. Also:

From: Dirkjan Ochtman <djc@gentoo.org>
To: IAN DELANEY <della5@iinet.com.au>
Subject: Re: hmm
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:22:44 +0200

From: Dirkjan Ochtman <djc@gentoo.org>
To: IAN DELANEY <della5@iinet.com.au>
Subject: Re: here we go again
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 10:17:55 +0200

I believe I am far better positioned than you to reflect and cite from
the past.

> I think you're being to binary about this. Even if
> there is no single thing that shows Ian "irrevocably damaging and
> threatening" Gentoo, there can still be a reason to prevent him from
> participating in some of our venues. 

Any excuse to appease your bias.

> I think the problem with Ian is
> that, as hard as he may try to contribute, I found his contributions
> to be net negative to the distribution. As such, I do think his
> presence is damaging to Gentoo. (And please note that I initially
> encouraged him to join us, and, as lead of the Python team at the
> time, spent significant time ironing out issues that arose from his
> attempts at contribution.)
> 
> > I am not alone in requesting accountability from the top of Gentoo.
> > I will take the results of this conversation into consideration
> > when it's time to vote next year, as Gentoo is suffering from
> > staffing issues and practices like this actively damage Gentoo's
> > ability to attract and retain contributors. I have personally met
> > people who have suffered as a result of this debacle; people
> > willing and eager to help us out that are still struggling to join
> > our ranks. So what gives?
> >
> > This distribution should not turn away anyone willing (and able) to
> > help. This is a critical flaw that could accelerate our decline.  
> 
> I respectfully but strongly disagree. Some people that are willing and
> able to help can in the end turn out to be negative contributors.

You are really leaving yourself wide open here.  The case was over
g-p-m, never 'team(!) python'.

> It is imperative for our community that we can identify those people
> and minimize their impact on the distribution both socially and
> technically.
> 

And you can pick and choose these?

> Cheers,

really?

> 
> Dirkjan
> 

What djc is suggesting here is that of this guy had it coming by my
personal preference of style and stoicism.  Here I was thinking it was
about events long after I withdrew from routine participation in team
python for reason he might find insane.

Still, ty for your thoughts, as they are.

-- 
kind regards

Ian Delaney

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 8:34 PM, Ian Delaney <della5@iinet.com.au> wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Dec 2016 18:48:33 -0500
> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> The one thing I haven't seen is anybody saying, "Ok, maybe I blew it,
>> and I'm sorry, I promise I won't do it again."  And, honestly, when I
>> see an appeal that is probably the one thing I'm most interested in
>> seeing.
>>
>> Sure, if there were no evidence that somebody did something wrong then
>> I would back them up in an appeal.  However, the fact is that most of
>> us blow it at one point or another and the thing that
>> recruiters/comrel/council/etc end up looking for is signs that
>> somebody is committed to following the CoC in the future, regardless
>> of what has happened in the past.
>>
>>
>
> My oh my oh my. How many times do I have to say it. Once more this time
> in the ML. I DIDN'T SEE THE EVIDENCE. YOU REFUSED TO SHOW IT TO ME
> DESPITE A FORMAL REQUEST via "SUBJECT: request for data" leaving me to
> appeal by reverse engineering and deductive reasoning, only to have
> ffffalll guy smirk and insist my detective work was all wrong as usual.

So, here is the problem with trying to have a conversation like this
in public.  I can't even confirm or deny whether you have been the
subject of a comrel action or appeal.

If I knew you were given an example of a situation where you had
violated the CoC, I couldn't point that out either, nor could I cite
situations where this very matter was discussed, were that to have
happened.

And this is the downside to conducting matters like this in private.
You're welcome to make whatever accusations you wish, and nobody is
really free to contradict them.

However, I do think this is preferable to watching everybody go back
and forth and line up and take sides (which is basically what happens
when you try to do something like this in public; just look at the
start of this thread).  So, if you want to assume I was a part of
something sinister, then be my guest.

As Gregory said earlier, we need to avoid "being a community that
doesn't want to offend anybody."  I think people getting offended by
issues like this is basically inevitable.

I think that most of the general pros and cons to handling matters in
private have already been discussed ad nauseum.  If something new
comes up that warrants a reply I'll do so, but otherwise feel free to
refer to the countless responses I've already given as I don't think
it profits everybody to hear them again.  I'm not surprised that there
is disagreement on a matter like this.  I can only promise to be
up-front about things and if people have a problem they're welcome to
vote for somebody else.  I can't really discuss what has transpired in
any specific Council appeal.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:46:31 PM EST Rich Freeman wrote:
>
> So, here is the problem with trying to have a conversation like this
> in public.  I can't even confirm or deny whether you have been the
> subject of a comrel action or appeal.

You should be doing EVERYTHING in public... You represent the public interest 
and a public community based on open source concepts.

> If I knew you were given an example of a situation where you had
> violated the CoC, I couldn't point that out either, nor could I cite
> situations where this very matter was discussed, were that to have
> happened.

That is absolutely absurd. Gentoo does not have any NDA that you have signed 
and are legally bound to. This cloak of secrecy is of concern and should not 
exist. It need not exist. How many times does it need be said that nothing 
regarding Gentoo should be confidential. It is ridiculous to think otherwise.

If there are legal reasons to keep matters private that is one thing. But I 
think more legal arguments would support it being made public. Not to mention 
potential liability keeping information in private while taking action in 
public. Essentially defaming people.

Either release all details in their entirety.  Or refrain from any action. 
Doing anything otherwise for a public project based around open source 
software is essentially censorship. Denying freedom of information. That is a 
horrible precedence to set for a open community....

If Gentoo has no tolerance for proprietary software, it should be the same for 
keeping information from the public. Regarding any matter other than security. 
Even security should not be confidential once a fix is available.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:57 PM, William L. Thomson Jr.
<wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
>
> How many times does it need be said that nothing
> regarding Gentoo should be confidential.
>

Evidently, once more.  I've stated the reasons I disagree.  That's
fine, we're allowed to disagree.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Thursday, December 1, 2016 10:04:21 PM EST Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:57 PM, William L. Thomson Jr.
> 
> <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> > How many times does it need be said that nothing
> > regarding Gentoo should be confidential.
> 
> Evidently, once more.  I've stated the reasons I disagree.  That's
> fine, we're allowed to disagree.

Here run this software, and no matter how it may effect you. You cannot see 
how the software does its thing.... It is closed source!

That is exactly what you are saying you support. Actions being taken that 
effect Gentoo community and distribution. Yet you advocate keeping that 
process, and data secret. Making everyone subject to the outcome.

Open source project with closed processes. That is complete insane thinking 
for leadership of an open source project! Seriously step back and think about 
that a bit. There is no difference between closed source software and what  
you are supporting.

Not meaning offensively, just take it logically. Is there any difference?

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:22 PM, William L. Thomson Jr.
<wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, December 1, 2016 10:04:21 PM EST Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:57 PM, William L. Thomson Jr.
>>
>> <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
>> > How many times does it need be said that nothing
>> > regarding Gentoo should be confidential.
>>
>> Evidently, once more.  I've stated the reasons I disagree.  That's
>> fine, we're allowed to disagree.
>
> Here run this software, and no matter how it may effect you. You cannot see
> how the software does its thing.... It is closed source!
>
> That is exactly what you are saying you support.

This is like saying that if you don't believe in releasing security
vulnerabilities before a timely patch is released that you don't
support open source.  They are different matters and the right policy
for one isn't necessarily the same as the right policy for the other.

We don't have to handle source code the way we handle interpersonal
conflict.  As I've already stated numerous times, I think the pros are
worse than the cons to opening this stuff up.  I'm not aware of any
Council members or Trustees who disagree on this, actually, and I've
talked in private with most.  Certainly none have publicly posted
anything contrary in these threads.

I really don't want to have a running debate on whether person A has
done something bad in the past.  I want to see person A refrain from
doing bad things in the future, and we can all go back to the reason
we all came here in the first place, and make improvements to the way
these situations are handled where they make sense.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Thursday, December 1, 2016 11:03:04 PM EST Rich Freeman wrote:
>
> This is like saying that if you don't believe in releasing security
> vulnerabilities before a timely patch is released that you don't
> support open source.

I have repeatedly said security is one exception.

>  I'm not aware of any
> Council members or Trustees who disagree on this, actually, and I've
> talked in private with most.  Certainly none have publicly posted
> anything contrary in these threads.

I am a former Trustee. I know that means nothing. Part of why I stepped down 
was I was constantly harassed. What I mean by such is I was constantly 
contacted in private regarding foundation matters. I did not feel comfortable 
discussing any of that in private. I felt it all should be in public.

I guess I failed to add stuff like this to the By Laws during the review long 
ago. To ensure Gentoo would always be open, its processes, data, etc.

> I really don't want to have a running debate on whether person A has
> done something bad in the past.  I want to see person A refrain from
> doing bad things in the future, and we can all go back to the reason
> we all came here in the first place, and make improvements to the way
> these situations are handled where they make sense.

Bad is a perception thing. What may be bad to you may not be to another.
The atmosphere is responsible for the bad more than individuals.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Ian Delaney]

On Thu, 1 Dec 2016 21:46:31 -0500
Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 8:34 PM, Ian Delaney <della5@iinet.com.au>
> wrote:
> > On Thu, 1 Dec 2016 18:48:33 -0500
> > Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >  
>  [...]  
> >
> > My oh my oh my. How many times do I have to say it. Once more this
> > time in the ML. I DIDN'T SEE THE EVIDENCE. YOU REFUSED TO SHOW IT
> > TO ME DESPITE A FORMAL REQUEST via "SUBJECT: request for data"
> > leaving me to appeal by reverse engineering and deductive
> > reasoning, only to have ffffalll guy smirk and insist my detective
> > work was all wrong as usual.  
> 
> So, here is the problem with trying to have a conversation like this
> in public.  I can't even confirm or deny whether you have been the
> subject of a comrel action or appeal.
> 
> If I knew you were given an example of a situation where you had
> violated the CoC, I couldn't point that out either, nor could I cite
> situations where this very matter was discussed, were that to have
> happened.
> 
> And this is the downside to conducting matters like this in private.
> You're welcome to make whatever accusations you wish, and nobody is
> really free to contradict them.
> 

How's  this working for you / gentoo? 
Hint, this thread and its predecessors.

> However, I do think this is preferable to watching everybody go back
> and forth and line up and take sides (which is basically what happens
> when you try to do something like this in public; just look at the
> start of this thread).  So, if you want to assume I was a part of
> something sinister, then be my guest.
> 

Get over it. They have already.

> As Gregory said earlier, we need to avoid "being a community that
> doesn't want to offend anybody."  I think people getting offended by
> issues like this is basically inevitable.
> 
> I think that most of the general pros and cons to handling matters in
> private have already been discussed ad nauseum.  If something new
> comes up that warrants a reply I'll do so, but otherwise feel free to
> refer to the countless responses I've already given as I don't think
> it profits everybody to hear them again.  I'm not surprised that there
> is disagreement on a matter like this.  I can only promise to be
> up-front about things and if people have a problem they're welcome to
> vote for somebody else.  I can't really discuss what has transpired in
> any specific Council appeal.
> 

Can you promise you can bear to endorse reform changes that represent
council's stance that directly contradict your own personal opinion.
i.e. Once they hit council agenda items and council meetings, you vote
according to the views and wants of the minuscule number of people in
ian's fanclub?

-- 
kind regards

Ian Delaney

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Ian Delaney]

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On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 11:33:19 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

>  We have never had good interactions. If you do not have something on
> a neutral technical nature to discuss with me. Again I will repeat.
> Why do you bother replying to my posts and purposely seeking to
> interact with me rather than avoid?
> 
> I do my best to avoid you, please try to the same, thank you!
> 
> On Thursday, December 1, 2016 4:41:53 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:
> >
> > Well, since you suggested cultural differences already... I don't
> > know what your culture suggests but if someone confides in me, I
> > don't go repeating what he told me on a public mailing list.  
> 
> We come from different countries, thus different cultures. What may
> not be rude or impolite to yours may be to mine. Thus your approach
> most times coming off as not friendly, rude, insulting, and not
> inviting for others to want to be on the receiving end of Michal
> Gorny's comments....
> 
> With regard to your implication. If something is not requested to be
> kept private, I tend to not think what they are saying need be hidden
> from the world. I also believe knowing who I am speaking with, I am
> not sharing anything they would actually mind. Thus your just making
> something out of nothing. Assuming another might take issue.
> 
> This happened before with a post I made about Daniel Robbins. It was
> falsely reported to Daniel. He was angry at first. Then we discussed
> it, and he THANKED ME for making a private email public. He also
> apologized for having been mislead about me sharing private
> information publicly. 
> > Did you ever count how many community members have unsubscribed from
> > the lists because of your posts? Maybe I'm one of the few who are
> > blunt enough to tell it straight to you but this is what's
> > happening. And it's not limited to you, of course.  
> 
> Do you have any numbers from infra to confirm this?
> At the same time do people start to subscribe from your posts?
> 
> I know for a fact based on interacting with you. How you conduct
> yourself will drive way more people away from Gentoo than it will
> ever attract.
> 
> You can say what ever you like about me, and think what ever. But I
> can prove you wrong at many turns with facts. Like that I provided on
> -nfp activity or lack there of before and after me. The same goes for
> Java. There was no Java team when I joined. Most all devs that were
> on that team came after me. I helped organize meetings and many
> things that fell apart in my absence.
> 
> We have very different styles. 
> 
> > Why I don't do that? Because I still want to have some influence
> > on Gentoo. I don't want to learn that someone did something silly
> > because everyone ignored the thread, so obviously there was no
> > opposition.  
> 
> From my perspective you seem to want to run Gentoo. You seem to want
> to drive the agenda on many things. You seem to think you are the
> ultimate authority. You also seem to realize how abrasive and
> unfriendly you are at times. Either intentional or not. It does not
> make working with you pleasant in anyway.
> 
> At times when I have tried to get your help, you provided very
> little. At that same time, I emailed Diego Elio Pettenò on auto tools
> related questions. He was VERY friendly and helpful. I had not had
> any contact with him in a long time. He was overseas in Asia very
> busy but still made time to reply to my email with an in depth reply
> that took time.
> 
> > Of course you could consider that what you're doing has some
> > positive effect. For example, Gentoo is gaining new mailing lists
> > so that people can discuss on very specific topics without having
> > to filter out all the noise.  
> 
> Mentioned by 1 person... How many are subscribed to this list? What
> percentage of list subscribers is represented but that comment?
> 
> For all that you accuse me of, I recommend you self reflect on your
> own actions, behavior and demeanor. If I had not had a history with
> Gentoo, and did not have many systems running it for some time that
> is not easy to switch to another. I would NEVER join Gentoo seeing
> people like you around.
> 
> At the same time, when you were talking about leaving Gentoo I said
> stay. Do I like Michał Górny. No! I do not like Michał Górny. I think
> he is very rude, unfriendly, impolite, disrespectful, and disagree
> with much of how he conducts himself.
> 
> HOWEVER, Michał Górny does have allot of technical skills to
> contribute to Gentoo. So despite his many social flaws, which I can
> overlook and deal with. He should remain a part of Gentoo for
> technical benefits and reasons.
> 
> There is no better proof than that, for why comrel need not exist,
> and why people can work with and be around those they dislike. It is
> called being a professional, an adult...
> 

Right conversation, wrong thread.
This was meant to be about me :)

- -- 
kind regards

Ian Delaney
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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Gregory Woodbury]

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While Gentoo is not currently bureaucracy-bound in terms of technical
service,
I am seeing a fair amount of bureaucratic-think in a few situations that
are more
community oriented.  I will not take sides in any particular complaints,
that is a
useless effort when there is not enough information available for me to
analyze.

So far, there are rumors and allegations, but no hard data available. Some
want
all the data out in the open, and others are more comfortable with dealing
with it
in a more controlled manner in private. The difference of opinion is the
crux
of the matter. Certainly, though, I have an opinion that a person directly
involved
should have access to the full data.  While the situation is not a "legal"
case, there
is no requirement to apply "rules of evidence" and other such formalities;
however,
some aspects of the USA's rules and rights may be generally applicable. We
surely
do not want to get involved in the quibbling and other tactics of folks who
might
want to be CoC and ComRel "lawyers"!!

I also am of the opinion that there should be appropriate principles that
guide folks
in their use of the various forums that abound for the community. The
electronic
virtual communities have the advantage off being able to create as many
topic
specific channels as they need or want, but care needs to be taken to not
allow
too many to the extent that no-one knows where to put a conversation.  The
history
of Usenet News is a perfect example of this phenomenon.

One thought that occurs to me is that some sort of compromise may be needed:
certain social problems could be discussed in informal private
conversations, but
before an action is taken as a resul some sort of public disclosue and
analysis
should be made available ro the community.  This is in keeping with the
traditions
of various bodies around the world. It offers a balance of the ability to
deliberate candidly
with the transparency of showing the why and wherefores. Ideally, the
summary
of the deliberations should be given with some delay before the actions are
implemented to allow for community opinions to be gauged.

To me, the secrecy and confidentiality that does occur shows that there is
some incipient
bureaucracy-think developing. It needs correcting fairly quickly to
preserve Gentoo's
reputation as a fair and open-minded community.

[I will point out that we should not be so open-minded that our brains fall
out!]

Compromise is the word of the day.

-- 
G.Wolfe Woodbury
redwolfe@gmail.com

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 1:10 PM, William L. Thomson Jr.
<wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
>> You take everything as good
>> opportunity to express what you have long felt, and divert every topic
>> into your hurt feelings and how Gentoo is bad, except for you and some
>> randomly chosen people who have left Gentoo... and well, unlike you, I
>> don't feel like repeating the story on yet another thread where you
>> have replied. Write a book, make millions selling it and let others
>> live peacefully.
>
> What are you adding here? Anything positive? Anything relevant to others on
> the list? Surely sounds like allot of personal opinion directed at me,
> personal insults, and nothing beneficial for the project.

For what it's worth, I agree with Michał that your presence on the
mailing list can be overwhelming (with overly long emails) to other
list participants, while you often stray off-topic or pivot a thread
towards some issue or history that you care about.

As you may remember, I wrote the following when you initially appeared
on the Gentoo:

> Your post does not make me confident about your ability to see the
> bigger picture and work with other developers. On the other hand, if
> current Java developers think you'll make a net positive contribution,
> then it makes sense to me to follow their judgement for now.

In my mind, your behavior on the mailing lists since then has
confirmed my initial suspicion.

On the other hand, Michał is a productive and technically competent
core Gentoo contributor, even though I've asked him privately in the
past to try and let fewer of his frustrations leak onto the mailing
list and IRC.

Cheers,

Dirkjan

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:30 PM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I fully concede I don't have the full picture, and a lot of the
> reasoning for that is it's kept so hush-hush. Naturally, my first
> reaction to secrecy is to find out why it's treated so specially when a
> lot of our affairs are left to public discourse. I'm open to new
> evidence and facts; any probing I've done into this subject has been met
> with hand-waving, which imo doesn't engender trust among us. So rather
> than beat around the bush, I chose to speak directly and candidly.

I respect that, and it's why I responded. I do think it would have
been better to handle this with ComRel through private channels, since
the larger issue appears to me that you don't trust ComRel's
judgement, and/or you dislike the secrecy around ComRel.

On the latter issue, I can understand the desire for privacy, but it
may also be the case that it's hard for ComRel to gain trust from the
broader community if they can't give a little more rationale behind
their decisions/reasoning. While I think we probably don't want this
stuff to be fully public, I think it would make sense for ComRel to
grant access to their documentation in specific cases where a
respected community member has reason to doubt a ComRel decision.

> I can understand a stance like that; are there bugs or a history of
> reversions that I can reference to corroborate this? At the core of it,
> there should be clear evidence that his contributions hurt or otherwise
> make maintaining the distribution difficult. I hope that if I were in
> that sort of situation, that efforts would be made to illustrate why my
> contributions were subpar and steps I could take to improve them in the
> long run. So if Ian's contributions really weren't helping us, there
> should be a history that indicates such.

There is; but I'm sorry, I have limited free time and don't really
want to spend it digging through emails and bugs from years ago. All I
wanted to state in my message that, as a somewhat impartial observer,
I agreed with the ComRel decision in this case. I think there are
other developers who would say the same, I'd be happy to name them
privately if you want to inquire more after this.

>> I respectfully but strongly disagree. Some people that are willing and
>> able to help can in the end turn out to be negative contributors. It
>> is imperative for our community that we can identify those people and
>> minimize their impact on the distribution both socially and
>> technically.
>
> I think I understand where you're coming from -- sometimes people can be
> toxic in their attitudes and make contributing a pain for other
> developers. I've not really seen any evidence of Ian being that type of
> person, however. Some off-color jokes that may have been in poor taste,
> maybe a misunderstanding or two, but that doesn't strike me as a big
> problem. We're a worldwide community, and naturally there may be
> language or cultural barriers or norms that clash. I think that's
> completely normal and expected. It's how we deal with those differences
> that gauges our social merit.

I'll just say I felt the same way about Ian in the beginning, but over
time had to admit I was wrong.

> If we're wanting to keep someone out -- be it Ian or someone else --
> *some* sort of evidence or reasoning is necessary. Evidence that shows a
> given person doesn't have the distribution's best interests in mind or
> evidence that someone can't work well with (many) others. Note the
> plural; sometimes two particular people just don't get along. Rather
> than expelling one of the two, I think it's fair to expect developers to
> acknowledge each others' differences but respect each other as people.
> If they can't respect each other, then they should be able to work on
> their own projects without harassing each other.

This just goes back to trust in ComRel, which I would argue is maybe a
wider/separate discussion (which could also encompass the other cases
you mention).

Cheers,

Dirkjan

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:51 AM, Ian Delaney <della5@iinet.com.au> wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Dec 2016 21:46:31 -0500
> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> And this is the downside to conducting matters like this in private.
>> You're welcome to make whatever accusations you wish, and nobody is
>> really free to contradict them.
>>
>
> How's  this working for you / gentoo?
> Hint, this thread and its predecessors.

I do think this is preferable to watching everybody go back
and forth and line up and take sides (which is basically what happens
when you try to do something like this in public; just look at the
start of this thread).  So, if you want to assume I was a part of
something sinister, then be my guest.

Apologies for sounding like a broken record, but one of the reasons I
write long emails is the anticipation of objections, like the one you
just raised, and which I had already responded to in the paragraph
immediately after the one you quoted.

>
> Can you promise you can bear to endorse reform changes that represent
> council's stance that directly contradict your own personal opinion.
> i.e. Once they hit council agenda items and council meetings, you vote
> according to the views and wants of the minuscule number of people in
> ian's fanclub?
>

I'm not sure I actually understand your question.  Are you asking
whether I'd uphold a Council decision that I personally disagree with?
 Of course, that's how we operate.  Would I endorse a decision that I
disagree with?  Probably not, and I wouldn't expect anybody to
"endorse" a decision they disagreed with.  This isn't a cult.  When I
vote I represent what I perceive to be the general needs/desires of
the entire community, and not any particular individual.  On major
topics I try to be up-front about how I will tend to vote so that
people can decide whether they want me to represent them.

And I'm all for various reforms, as I've stated in the preceding
threads and in my manifestos, such as more oversight of comrel and
ideally some kind of resolution to the Council/Trustee split.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Friday, December 2, 2016 6:50:15 AM EST Rich Freeman wrote:
> 
> I do think this is preferable to watching everybody go back
> and forth and line up and take sides (which is basically what happens
> when you try to do something like this in public; just look at the
> start of this thread).  So, if you want to assume I was a part of
> something sinister, then be my guest.

Regardless of that, you could be part of shedding light and clearing the air 
once and for all. Not to mention putting forth processes to ensure this is not 
recurring.

>  This isn't a cult.  

Maybe not, but aspects can be very cliquish...

Small groups with the power reluctant to change, all in agreeance  preserving 
status quo. Friendly within while external can be an annoyance...

Sound familiar?

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Friday, December 2, 2016 10:00:36 AM EST Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 1:10 PM, William L. Thomson Jr.
> 
> <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> >> You take everything as good
> >> opportunity to express what you have long felt, and divert every topic
> >> into your hurt feelings and how Gentoo is bad, except for you and some
> >> randomly chosen people who have left Gentoo... and well, unlike you, I
> >> don't feel like repeating the story on yet another thread where you
> >> have replied. Write a book, make millions selling it and let others
> >> live peacefully.
> > 
> > What are you adding here? Anything positive? Anything relevant to others
> > on
> > the list? Surely sounds like allot of personal opinion directed at me,
> > personal insults, and nothing beneficial for the project.
> 
> For what it's worth, I agree with Michał that your presence on the
> mailing list can be overwhelming (with overly long emails) to other
> list participants, while you often stray off-topic or pivot a thread
> towards some issue or history that you care about.

Not surprising. Despite the fact that Michał Górny comments were even more off 
topic, and had nothing of value to add to the discussion. But instead was a 
personal attack and was insulting. I would almost say that is CoC violation 
right there and you are supporting such comments and behavior.

You are welcome to use a novel feature called Email filter... You do not have 
to read anything I post. Nor does Michał Górny need to reply to my posts. 
Which I get a direct email in addition to the one for the list. So it shows up 
in my inbox bypassing my list filters. I 

> As you may remember, I wrote the following when you initially appeared

Did you read what you wrote? Read it again

> on the Gentoo:
> > Your post does not make me confident about your ability to see the
> > bigger picture and work with other developers. On the other hand, if
> > current Java developers think you'll make a net positive contribution,
> > then it makes sense to me to follow their judgement for now.

The only other active Java dev did speak up. No one listened.... If you all 
did, I would have been silent long ago working....

He even warned you all

"wltjr is afflicted with verbal diarrhoea which, while annoying, is not
a crime."

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/
24dc672eb7ad1fb61174f91d6e680378
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/
e04f608b9dd11eec31e6129988f09b70

> In my mind, your behavior on the mailing lists since then has
> confirmed my initial suspicion.

Do you know me? Have you ever interacted with me? Have you ever worked with 
me? Maybe get to know someone before making judgments on them. You can observe 
many things, thinking you know something you do not.
 
That is also the biggest issue with Comrel. They make no effort to get to know 
the people they are working with. That may be the first time those people have 
ever interacted in Gentoo.

> On the other hand, Michał is a productive and technically competent
> core Gentoo contributor, even though I've asked him privately in the
> past to try and let fewer of his frustrations leak onto the mailing
> list and IRC.

I am prevented from being able to directly contribute. Given that fact, your 
statement is quite insulting. Implying I am not a productive member and I 
should head the way to those that are and never question anything.

You are basically saying what I have all along. No matter how you conduct 
yourself, your contributions to Gentoo outweigh it all. Because I am not a 
Gentoo Developer, and Michał Górny. He is valued and I am a pest. 

I can show public facts on how Michał Górny has violated the CoC. While I am 
not a fan of Comrel. Just as a test I reported Michał Górny for a clear breach 
of the CoC. Nothing happened. I guess I should have filed a public bug than 
private email...

I also see Michał Górny introducing a good deal of work that needs to be done. 
He is not the one doing the work. Nor finding people to do to the work. I would 
question this core contribution benefit in the over all grand scheme.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 8:57 AM, William L. Thomson Jr.
<wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> On Friday, December 2, 2016 6:50:15 AM EST Rich Freeman wrote:
>>
>> I do think this is preferable to watching everybody go back
>> and forth and line up and take sides (which is basically what happens
>> when you try to do something like this in public; just look at the
>> start of this thread).  So, if you want to assume I was a part of
>> something sinister, then be my guest.
>
> Regardless of that, you could be part of shedding light and clearing the air
> once and for all. Not to mention putting forth processes to ensure this is not
> recurring.

I've already stated that I'm in favor of having Comrel operate more
like QA with its lead confirmed by the Council, and this seems likely
to happen.  While I consider the matter somewhat orthogonal I suspect
we may also see some kind of rationalization of the Council/Trustee
bodies.  And I am in fact open to suggestions as to how the process
might operate more openly while not turning every major dispute into a
free-for-all or discouraging the subjects of harassment from coming
forward.

Perhaps something like this might be a compromise, I'm interested in
how Debian handles such situations:
https://lwn.net/Articles/611340/

>
> Small groups with the power reluctant to change, all in agreeance  preserving
> status quo. Friendly within while external can be an annoyance...
>
> Sound familiar?
>

Not really.

What I see is a handful of people raising the same objections over and
over again.  The fact that a few people hold an opinion in a distro
with hundreds of contributors doesn't make it a majority position, or
mean that leadership is blind to the desires of the community when
they disagree.

I'm all for improvements when they're improvements.  I'm not going to
agree to a change because a few people are willing to keep asking for
it endlessly.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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The current discussion on the list has likely reached the ending point
of its usefullness.

In order to protect multiple involved parties and interests it is in the
nature of ComRel's operations to be bound by a promise of
confidentiality. No further communication on this topic will be made by
ComRel. Opinions by single members should not be seen as a statement of
the team; official statements are made by an authorized officer which
often is the ComRel lead and is specifically marked "on behalf of ComRel".

Although there is limited information that can be provided from
ComRel on specific matters, it has been determined to share the
following summary:

On 2016-05-28, after complaints and discussion, idella4 was retired with
a 6 months ban on all gentoo communication channels (comrel team vote; 5
yes, 1 no, 0 abstain, 3 missing (non-responsive))

On 2016-08-17 idella4 filed an appeal with the Council, following which
all information was released and made available to the council members.

On 2016-10-02 the council made a final vote and determined to uphold the
ComRel decision. The vote was formally "The council overturns the Comrel
decision regarding idella4[...]" with result of 4 no, 1 abstention, and
2 members recused since they are also comrel members.

On behalf of ComRel,

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Aaron Bauman]

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On 12/02/2016 10:43 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> On Thursday, December 1, 2016 8:02:18 PM EST Rich Freeman wrote:
>> I'm happy to revise it as needed in the
>> future, but ultimately if individuals appeal cases to the Council
> You really love this appeal to council concept. I maintain the position such 
> should never be necessary and is a WASTE of everyone's time. I rather do work 
> than waste time with such.
>
> I guess you haven't better things to do so rather waste your time handling 
> appeals than making sure they never occur. Never seen someone advocate and 
> talk about an appeal process so much.
>
>> It isn't like this happens very often.  
> I do not believe there has ever been such disruption to Gentoo by any 
> individual or group to have ever justified Comrel and the like.
>
>> I get that your position is that we simply shouldn't enforce a code of
>> conduct. 
> My opinion is the CoC and enforcement has destroyed the Gentoo community and 
> is slowly destroying the distro. To many fail to realize everything they hope 
> to accomplish and protect via CoC is being ripped apart by the CoC and 
> enforcement.
>
> Do work, stop this social nonsense really!!!
>
> Disban comrel, get rid of the CoC. Focus more on getting more people involved 
> in Gentoo. Use novel technical concepts like Email and IRC filters to ingore 
> people who bother you. This person A made me leave the mailing list or Gentoo. 
> Really I guess you did not get much benefit from Gentoo. If you have true 
> technical benefit you cannot leave and will deal with what ever for a FREE 
> operating system that is pretty complex.
>
> Really, stop acting like this is a bunch of children that need chaperones to 
> babysit and make sure everyone behaves and treats each other nicely. What ever 
> happened to having thick skin in tech.
>
> Freaking emo generation, lift up your dresses, grab your balls and man up!!!
> No offense to LGBT.... PC nonsense....
If this isn't cause for violating the CoC I don't know what is...
>



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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michał Górny]

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On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 20:43:03 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, December 1, 2016 8:02:18 PM EST Rich Freeman wrote:
> > I'm happy to revise it as needed in the
> > future, but ultimately if individuals appeal cases to the Council  
> 
> You really love this appeal to council concept. I maintain the position such 
> should never be necessary and is a WASTE of everyone's time. I rather do work 
> than waste time with such.
> 
> I guess you haven't better things to do so rather waste your time handling 
> appeals than making sure they never occur. Never seen someone advocate and 
> talk about an appeal process so much.

In a perfect world the appeal process is unnecessary and a waste of
time, of course. However, based on the presumption that the world isn't
perfect and the disciplinary actions might be misguided, there's
an appeal process to help rule that out.

Of course, this makes only sense if there's a doubt as to
the legitimacy of the punishment in reference to the rules. If you know
that the punishment is well deserved and instead focus on claiming that
the rules are wrong, the appeal process doesn't make sense for you.

> > It isn't like this happens very often.    
> 
> I do not believe there has ever been such disruption to Gentoo by any 
> individual or group to have ever justified Comrel and the like.
> 
> > I get that your position is that we simply shouldn't enforce a code of
> > conduct.   
> 
> My opinion is the CoC and enforcement has destroyed the Gentoo community and 
> is slowly destroying the distro. To many fail to realize everything they hope 
> to accomplish and protect via CoC is being ripped apart by the CoC and 
> enforcement.
> 
> Do work, stop this social nonsense really!!!
> 
> Disban comrel, get rid of the CoC. Focus more on getting more people involved 
> in Gentoo. Use novel technical concepts like Email and IRC filters to ingore 
> people who bother you. This person A made me leave the mailing list or Gentoo. 
> Really I guess you did not get much benefit from Gentoo. If you have true 
> technical benefit you cannot leave and will deal with what ever for a FREE 
> operating system that is pretty complex.
> 
> Really, stop acting like this is a bunch of children that need chaperones to 
> babysit and make sure everyone behaves and treats each other nicely. What ever 
> happened to having thick skin in tech.
> 
> Freaking emo generation, lift up your dresses, grab your balls and man up!!!
> No offense to LGBT.... PC nonsense....

This could work if everyone was able to work with one another putting
their differences aside. Of course, this works for most of us. Even
though we shout at one another occasionally, and sometimes offend them,
we can move on and continue working towards better Gentoo.

That said, I don't agree with the concept of filtering. It's a bad idea
since it only causes more disruption, confusion, ignorance
and in the end more conflicts. But that's not important here.

What's important that this will never work for everyone. There are
people who simply can't work with one another and eventually one of
them leaves Gentoo. Sure, that happens, we have to live with it. There
is really no point in banning developer A because B said he left/would
leave because of him, even if we consider B much more beneficial to
Gentoo than A.

However, some people have the quality of being toxic to the point of
causing Gentoo to lose multiple contributors (contributions), sometimes
over even a very short period of time. That's where disciplinary strong
actions from Comrel become necessary. Of course, that's a rare case but
it happened.

Besides, Comrel is doing a really good job in resolving minor conflicts
that do not require any disciplinary action. Most of the time all that
the developers need from Comrel is an advice how to peacefully resolve
a particular conflict.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny
<http://dev.gentoo.org/~mgorny/>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Mon, 5 Dec 2016 19:55:16 +0900
Aaron Bauman <bman@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Freaking emo generation, lift up your dresses, grab your balls and
> > man up!!! No offense to LGBT.... PC nonsense....  
>
> If this isn't cause for violating the CoC I don't know what is...

Responding to William does nothing except create drama, so your
allegation of a CoC violation is in clear violation of the CoC. Report
yourself for retraining immediately.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michał Górny]

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On Monday, December 5, 2016 3:01:54 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:

Please "reply to list" and stop sending me two copies. One of which arrives in 
my inbox. 2nd request. Thank you!

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, December 5, 2016 3:01:54 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:
> 
> However, some people have the quality of being toxic to the point of
> causing Gentoo to lose multiple contributors (contributions), sometimes
> over even a very short period of time. That's where disciplinary strong
> actions from Comrel become necessary. Of course, that's a rare case but
> it happened.

Sometimes in taking action to protect the community. You kill the community.

Such IS the case with Gentoo Java. Comrel drove me away, and killed the team. 
That is a FACT! The reason why is I helped to build the team and keep it 
together. I organized meetings, brought on more developers etc. For everyone 
who says I am toxic. History and facts will prove otherwise. Go look!

You all can say you are protecting the community by driving away people. 
People whom you are not working with. Not doing the work they would. Not find 
another to do the work. Your claim of protecting the community and not driving 
others away. Did literally just that. I am NOT the only one either!

However no matter how many times those facts are brought up. No matter how 
long Gentoo Java goes neglected. People still deny the facts and refuse to 
change course. While more are NOT coming!

This logic does not make sense, and there are no results to justify the 
approach.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Sunday, December 4, 2016 7:36:22 PM EST Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
>
> On 2016-05-28, after complaints and discussion, idella4 was retired with
> a 6 months ban on all gentoo communication channels (comrel team vote; 5
> yes, 1 no, 0 abstain, 3 missing (non-responsive))

That seems a bit harsh.

Please ensure that this 6 month period is respected and lifted on time. Not 
accidentally remaining for years. As has been the case before. I would think 
the ban to have a specific term, starting Dec 1 2016, lifting May 1st 2017 for 
example.

Please ensure that things put in place to restrict for any period are lifted 
on time. Thank you!

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Kent Fredric]

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On Mon, 05 Dec 2016 09:21:03 -0500
Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Monday, December 5, 2016 3:01:54 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:
> 
> Please "reply to list" and stop sending me two copies. One of which arrives in 
> my inbox. 2nd request. Thank you!
> 

What motive was there for William to send this email with "From: mgorny" in the headers?

Its a weird thing to notice.

But weirder to do.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 12/05/2016 03:31 PM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> On Sunday, December 4, 2016 7:36:22 PM EST Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
>>
>> On 2016-05-28, after complaints and discussion, idella4 was retired with
>> a 6 months ban on all gentoo communication channels (comrel team vote; 5
>> yes, 1 no, 0 abstain, 3 missing (non-responsive))
> 
> That seems a bit harsh.
> 
> Please ensure that this 6 month period is respected and lifted on time. Not 
> accidentally remaining for years. As has been the case before. I would think 
> the ban to have a specific term, starting Dec 1 2016, lifting May 1st 2017 for 
> example.
> 
> Please ensure that things put in place to restrict for any period are lifted 
> on time. Thank you!
> 


In this case it has already been lifted

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2016 09:27:44 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> On Monday, December 5, 2016 3:01:54 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:
> > However, some people have the quality of being toxic to the point of
> > causing Gentoo to lose multiple contributors (contributions),
> > sometimes over even a very short period of time. That's where
> > disciplinary strong actions from Comrel become necessary. Of
> > course, that's a rare case but it happened.  
> 
> Sometimes in taking action to protect the community. You kill the
> community.
> 
> Such IS the case with Gentoo Java. Comrel drove me away, and killed
> the team. That is a FACT! The reason why is I helped to build the
> team and keep it together. I organized meetings, brought on more
> developers etc. For everyone who says I am toxic. History and facts
> will prove otherwise. Go look!
> 
> You all can say you are protecting the community by driving away
> people. People whom you are not working with. Not doing the work they
> would. Not find another to do the work. Your claim of protecting the
> community and not driving others away. Did literally just that. I am
> NOT the only one either!
> 
> However no matter how many times those facts are brought up. No
> matter how long Gentoo Java goes neglected. People still deny the
> facts and refuse to change course. While more are NOT coming!
> 
> This logic does not make sense, and there are no results to justify
> the approach.

William, you are missing the bigger picture here. Allow me to explain:

Gentoo historically had a small community and difficulty in enlarging
it due to the competence barrier. Many people who wanted to become part
of the community could not, because they were unable to reach the level
of skill needed to either become a developer, or to make sufficiently
many forum posts with dodgy kernel patches.

A few attempts were made to fix this, which you may remember. The
Gentoo Webapps project and Gentoo Alt OS X and Cygwin ports tried
removing technical competence as a barrier to entry for developers, but
other than the short-term increase in forum posts from people with
broken systems due to global-scope mkdir calls, this did very little to
increase the community.

But comrel, devrel, and the like provide an excellent opportunity to
diversify Gentoo's talent pool and keep everyone busy. Suddenly people
who have never written a line of code in their lives and who can't
understand the whole "metadata invariance in global scope" issue can
make helpful contributions to the community. Look how Gentoo has grown!
Now you don't even have to make it through the install guide to be able
to join in. This community that you think has died is larger than ever.
Sure, you were driven away, but look at how many forum posts are
generated by people having Java problems!

Now, in case you're thinking that I'm joking, remember that the
Golgafrinchans died from a disease contracted from public telephones.
If you truly care about the Gentoo community, you should be working to
ensure that an entire team has to keep itself busy dealing with you.
This short-term complaint-spamming approach of yours is only giving them
a few fish. Why not get yourself a few sock puppets recruited as
developers, so Gentoo has an opportunity to establish an investigative
forensics team to determine who they are? For bonus points, get
yourself on that team -- I can't even begin tell you how much fun being
on comrel has been for one of my aliases, and I'm currently working on
recruiting Wulf and Bryan's alts to join in the fun even more.

Yours with upmost sincerity,
-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michał Górny]

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On Mon, 05 Dec 2016 09:21:03 -0500
Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Monday, December 5, 2016 3:01:54 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:
> 
> Please "reply to list" and stop sending me two copies. One of which arrives in 
> my inbox. 2nd request. Thank you!

'Reply all' is a standard practice used and understood on many
professional mailing lists. I really find it hard to understand why
the Gentoo mailing lists are the ones where frequently a 'newcomer' (or
new-noticer) complains about that instead of setting up their mail
service to filter duplicates.

Additionally, please do not spoof as me. This is really unprofessional.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny
<http://dev.gentoo.org/~mgorny/>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 3:34:42 AM EST Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Dec 2016 09:21:03 -0500
> 
> Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On Monday, December 5, 2016 3:01:54 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:
> > 
> > Please "reply to list" and stop sending me two copies. One of which
> > arrives in my inbox. 2nd request. Thank you!
> 
> What motive was there for William to send this email with "From: mgorny" in
> the headers?
> 
> Its a weird thing to notice.
> 
> But weirder to do.

Not sure what happened. I was meaning to reply to him off list. Seems I may 
have posted to list instead of emailing him directly.

Looking at the email in my sent folder, looks like I swapped fields around in 
kmail and sent it as if I was mgorny. Stupid kmail allows you to type in an 
email and replace the one from your identity. Simply mistake not intentional.

Which I must say has clearly shown a flaw in Gentoo and a BIG one. If I can 
pose as another... Seems no SPF, or other DKIM, DMARC.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, December 5, 2016 3:40:04 PM EST Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> 
> In this case it has already been lifted

I was going to ask, the initial text was hard to process. I could not tell if 
the appeal overturned or upheld Comrel's decision. It sounded like it was 
upheld.

None the less, please ensure any bans or restrictions are lifted on time. That 
has been problematic in the past. Not nefarious, just easily overlooked.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, December 5, 2016 3:55:38 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Dec 2016 09:21:03 -0500
> 
> Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On Monday, December 5, 2016 3:01:54 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:
> > 
> > Please "reply to list" and stop sending me two copies. One of which
> > arrives in my inbox. 2nd request. Thank you!
> 
> 'Reply all' is a standard practice used and understood on many
> professional mailing lists. I really find it hard to understand why
> the Gentoo mailing lists are the ones where frequently a 'newcomer' (or
> new-noticer) complains about that instead of setting up their mail
> service to filter duplicates.

You are the ONLY one I ever get a copy of an email in my inbox and 2 copies 
from. I have been on mailing lists for decades and I hosted them as well.

https://www.google.com/search?q=reply+to+list+net+etiquette

> Additionally, please do not spoof as me. This is really unprofessional.

Gentoo should not allow for such. Not may fault things are not setup properly 
and Gentoo allows others to pose as them.

Maybe if you GPG sign emails, they will know the author. Which also was not 
verified as that email was signed with email address not matching the To: field.


-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Kent Fredric]

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On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 3:34:42 AM EST Kent Fredric wrote:

Now I am you, this is NOT good and IMHO egg on Gentoo's face...

When did Gentoo stop requiring devs to GPG sign emailis? That is one way to 
prevent such issue. But still would not stop things like what I am doing now. 
This is pretty bad... Guess I should file a bug to -infra...

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michał Górny]

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On Mon, 05 Dec 2016 09:27:44 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> On Monday, December 5, 2016 3:01:54 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:
> > 
> > However, some people have the quality of being toxic to the point of
> > causing Gentoo to lose multiple contributors (contributions), sometimes
> > over even a very short period of time. That's where disciplinary strong
> > actions from Comrel become necessary. Of course, that's a rare case but
> > it happened.  
> 
> Sometimes in taking action to protect the community. You kill the community.
> 
> Such IS the case with Gentoo Java. Comrel drove me away, and killed the team. 
> That is a FACT! The reason why is I helped to build the team and keep it 
> together. I organized meetings, brought on more developers etc. For everyone 
> who says I am toxic. History and facts will prove otherwise. Go look!

One does not exclude the other. Sometimes you have to weight between
two bad choices, and attempt to choose the lesser evil. Can you prove
that your coexistence with other developers will be beneficial
long-term to Gentoo as a whole?

Yes, we heard you the previous 50 times, Java is in bad state. However,
many other areas of Gentoo are not that bad. How can you guarantee,
especially considering your behavior so far, that your work on Gentoo
-- while causing improvement in Java status -- wouldn't cause other
developers to reduce their productivity on other areas of Gentoo?

> You all can say you are protecting the community by driving away people. 
> People whom you are not working with. Not doing the work they would. Not find 
> another to do the work. Your claim of protecting the community and not driving 
> others away. Did literally just that. I am NOT the only one either!
> 
> However no matter how many times those facts are brought up. No matter how 
> long Gentoo Java goes neglected. People still deny the facts and refuse to 
> change course. While more are NOT coming!
> 
> This logic does not make sense, and there are no results to justify the 
> approach.

I'm sorry for not finding a better word for it but this really sounds
like blackmail. 'You must recruit me, or your Java will suffer!' Do you
really think we ought to recruit people based on how persistent they
are in blackmailing us?

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny
<http://dev.gentoo.org/~mgorny/>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Yury German]

> On Dec 5, 2016, at 10:00 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Which I must say has clearly shown a flaw in Gentoo and a BIG one. If I can 
> pose as another... Seems no SPF, or other DKIM, DMARC.
> 

Look enough instigating already…. You want to know what is going to affect your future work status, etc… it is SH*T like mailing list where you are instigating problems non stop. You are not happy camper!!!! EVERYONE IN THE WORLD who reads this list already got this. Hell if I was hiring someone and I would do a search on the Internet, the previous Gentoo stuff would not even phase me… what you are doing here would be an immediate blacklist for you for any jobs possible within the company. 

You are not happy with the way Gentoo is run, OK we get that to. You are not happy with anything to do with Gentoo… then enough already please move yourself to another distribution and leave the people that are working on Gentoo and would be much happier without you just bothering them. There are a lot of other distributions that you could use, so stop whining… and just go somewhere else. 

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, December 5, 2016 10:00:45 AM EST William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
>
> Which I must say has clearly shown a flaw in Gentoo and a BIG one. If I can
> pose as another... Seems no SPF, or other DKIM, DMARC.

SPF is in place, but something is amiss.

gentoo.org.             3600    IN      SPF     "v=spf1 mx ptr include:%{l}.%
{o}.spf.gentoo.org. ?all"
gentoo.org.             3600    IN      TXT     "v=spf1 mx ptr include:%{l}.%
{o}.spf.gentoo.org. ?all

Maybe something on my end, as I do run my own mail server. But still Gentoo 
mail servers should not be processing these emails and sending them back to me 
or something...

Didn't see DMARC or DKIM, but I have been slacking on those myself.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, December 5, 2016 4:10:17 PM EST Michał Górny wrote:
>
> One does not exclude the other. Sometimes you have to weight between
> two bad choices, and attempt to choose the lesser evil. Can you prove
> that your coexistence with other developers will be beneficial
> long-term to Gentoo as a whole?

Yes I proved it before. If others get out of the way I would do it again.
 
> Yes, we heard you the previous 50 times, Java is in bad state. 

Are you doing anything to make it better? Or just causing grief for those who 
are? You can do the work and I will go away. How does that sound?

> owever,
> many other areas of Gentoo are not that bad. How can you guarantee,
> especially considering your behavior so far, that your work on Gentoo
> -- while causing improvement in Java status -- wouldn't cause other
> developers to reduce their productivity on other areas of Gentoo?

You behavior has been FAR worse than mine has ever been. But I rather not cast 
stones, we all live in glass houses. I simply leave you be, and I have no idea 
why you cannot do the same. I try to NOT reply to your posts. I wish you could 
do the same.

Or go work on Java, and I will go away...
Or find someone to work on Java and I will go away...

> I'm sorry for not finding a better word for it but this really sounds
> like blackmail. 'You must recruit me, or your Java will suffer!' Do you
> really think we ought to recruit people based on how persistent they
> are in blackmailing us?

Hardly, you can do the work. You can find someone to do the work.
Or get out of my way and I will do the work. I do not care just make sure the 
work is done.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 12/05/2016 10:12 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> 
> SPF is in place, but something is amiss.

SPF doesn't have anything to do with the "From" address.


> Didn't see DMARC or DKIM, but I have been slacking on those myself.

DMARC and DKIM are things that the sender of the message does, so the
fact that you are slacking on them is why they are absent.

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, December 5, 2016 10:17:26 AM EST Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 12/05/2016 10:12 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> > SPF is in place, but something is amiss.
> 
> SPF doesn't have anything to do with the "From" address.

Do you know about SPF at all? That is EXACTLY its purpose...

 "Email spam and phishing often use forged "from" addresses, so publishing and 
checking SPF records can be considered anti-spam techniques."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Policy_Framework

> > Didn't see DMARC or DKIM, but I have been slacking on those myself.
> 
> DMARC and DKIM are things that the sender of the message does, so the
> fact that you are slacking on them is why they are absent.

These are things you do so your mail server is not abused and people do not 
pose as sending from your domain.

I have run my own mail servers for 16+ years. I am pretty familiar with email 
stuff....

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, December 5, 2016 10:10:51 AM EST Yury German wrote:
> > On Dec 5, 2016, at 10:00 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Which I must say has clearly shown a flaw in Gentoo and a BIG one. If I
> > can
> > pose as another... Seems no SPF, or other DKIM, DMARC.
> 
> Look enough instigating already…. You want to know what is going to affect
> your future work status, etc… it is SH*T like mailing list where you are
> instigating problems non stop. 

Would this problem be known if I had not exposed it?

> You are not happy camper!!!! EVERYONE IN THE
> WORLD who reads this list already got this. Hell if I was hiring someone
> and I would do a search on the Internet, the previous Gentoo stuff would
> not even phase me… what you are doing here would be an immediate blacklist
> for you for any jobs possible within the company.

Given I have been self employed since 2000. My concern for getting a job is 
very little. It hasn't happened regardless of stuff like this on list. IMHO 
the biggest challenge is going from Entrepreneur to Employee. Its different 
mindsets.

Employers question loyalty of Entrepreneur's. Employees tend to be loyal to 
their employer. Entrepreneur's tend to be loyal to themselves.

All other challenges are minor.

> You are not happy with the way Gentoo is run, OK we get that to. 

Not liking 1 entity in Gentoo is not speaking of Gentoo as a whole. Do I think 
Gentoo's overall structure could improve surely. But that is not what I am 
discussing. I am not talking about merging Foundation and Council, 
restructuring Gentoo.

Simply getting a problem out of the way so it is no longer a problem for 
Gentoo. A problem that has effected MANY more than just myself. I am not doing 
this for me, I am doing it for all others who have been effected.

If I have to sacrifice myself for the sake of others, so be it. Consider me a 
freedom fighter. The price of freedom most times is death.

> You are not
> happy with anything to do with Gentoo… then enough already please move
> yourself to another distribution and leave the people that are working on
> Gentoo

Once again I am not doing anything. I have not contributed anything, nor 
documentation etc. Others are getting in the way of MY work...

> and would be much happier without you just bothering them. There are
> a lot of other distributions that you could use, so stop whining… and just
> go somewhere else.

Do you think I would be happier if people treated me better? Or stopped 
getting in the way of progress. Or if they just did the work themselves or 
found someone to do it. I would happily go away.

You all are not making it happen. So you want me to go away so things will not 
happen for even longer? That does not sound like a good strategy.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 12/05/2016 10:24 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> On Monday, December 5, 2016 10:17:26 AM EST Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>> On 12/05/2016 10:12 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
>>> SPF is in place, but something is amiss.
>>
>> SPF doesn't have anything to do with the "From" address.
> 
> Do you know about SPF at all? That is EXACTLY its purpose...
> 

No, it isn't. Please just stop.

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Yury German]

> 
> Do you think I would be happier if people treated me better? Or stopped 
> getting in the way of progress. Or if they just did the work themselves or 
> found someone to do it. I would happily go away.
> 
> You all are not making it happen. So you want me to go away so things will not 
> happen for even longer? That does not sound like a good strategy.

We know by know that you are the impediment of whatever religion’s icon reincarnated,  and you can fix all problems with Gentoo, world starvation, world pieces etc single handily. So go have fun doing it I am personally SICK of this so with a single button click (In GENTOO) I am making you at least go away. Look… the blacklist button is working in Gentoo… well I guess one thing we will not have to fix.

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Mon, 05 Dec 2016 10:26:17 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> On Monday, December 5, 2016 10:10:51 AM EST Yury German wrote:
>  [...]  
> > 
> > Look enough instigating already…. You want to know what is going to affect
> > your future work status, etc… it is SH*T like mailing list where you are
> > instigating problems non stop.   
> 
> Would this problem be known if I had not exposed it?

Would it be exposed if I'd not noticed the mistake?

Also, what happens when I attempt spoofing senders? *Lets see*

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, December 5, 2016 10:34:06 AM EST Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 12/05/2016 10:24 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> > On Monday, December 5, 2016 10:17:26 AM EST Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> >> On 12/05/2016 10:12 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> >>> SPF is in place, but something is amiss.
> >> 
> >> SPF doesn't have anything to do with the "From" address.
> > 
> > Do you know about SPF at all? That is EXACTLY its purpose...
> 
> No, it isn't. Please just stop.

You are factually wrong! If you think I am, provide a link and proof where I 
am wrong.

"Originally SPF stood for Sender Permitted From...."

"SPF allows the owner of an Internet domain to specify which computers are 
authorized to send mail with "from" addresses in that domain, using Domain 
Name System (DNS) records. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Policy_Framework

Why do you think it is called "SENDER" as in who the email is FROM....

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, December 5, 2016 10:35:14 AM EST Yury German wrote:
> > Do you think I would be happier if people treated me better? Or stopped
> > getting in the way of progress. Or if they just did the work themselves or
> > found someone to do it. I would happily go away.
> > 
> > You all are not making it happen. So you want me to go away so things will
> > not happen for even longer? That does not sound like a good strategy.
> 
> We know by know that you are the impediment of whatever religion’s icon
> reincarnated,  and you can fix all problems with Gentoo, world starvation,
> world pieces etc single handily. So go have fun doing it I am personally
> SICK of this so with a single button click (In GENTOO) I am making you at
> least go away. Look… the blacklist button is working in Gentoo… well I
> guess one thing we will not have to fix.

Really amazing the tone of emails that are found acceptable. Much less the 
content. Or the threats that seem to go completely outside policy.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 12/05/2016 10:36 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> 
> You are factually wrong! If you think I am, provide a link and proof where I 
> am wrong.

http://www.openspf.org/FAQ/Envelope_from_scope

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, December 5, 2016 10:42:53 AM EST Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 12/05/2016 10:36 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> > You are factually wrong! If you think I am, provide a link and proof where
> > I am wrong.
> 
> http://www.openspf.org/FAQ/Envelope_from_scope

Nothing there says From field is excluded. It just says it is difficult 
technically. I think you are misreading that. It even says majority not ALL, 
and concludes with

"If you want to use the "From:" header as the subject of authentication with 
SPF, you need to be familiar with the following:"

None the less, something is off in Gentoo and needs to be address. People 
should not be able to pose as Gentoo developers. Compose an email using my 
email addresses and see what message you get back from SMTP servers. Properly 
configured ones :)

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Kent Fredric]

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On Mon, 05 Dec 2016 10:53:29 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:

> Compose an email using my 
> email addresses and see what message you get back from SMTP servers. 

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/adc634b0fd1a8b42305bf783f06ac218

The question is: who got that email, and who didn't? 

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 12/05/2016 10:53 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> Compose an email using my 
> email addresses and see what message you get back from SMTP servers. 
> 

"250 ok", from the looks of it.

  $ cat wlt.msg
  Subject: Please, just stop.
  From: William L. Thomson Jr. <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com>
  To: wlt-ml@o-sinc.com

  Please, just stop.
  $ sendmail wlt-ml@o-sinc.com < wlt.msg

It went through just fine:

Dec  5 11:09:59 mail2 postfix/smtp[31569]: 3tXV080H06z15Rg:
to=<wlt-ml@o-sinc.com>,
relay=mail1.obsidian-studios.com[173.230.135.215]:25, delay=535,
delays=533/0.06/0.28/1.6, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 ok 1480954199 qp
17876)

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 5:03:38 AM EST Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Dec 2016 10:53:29 -0500
> 
> "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> > Compose an email using my
> > email addresses and see what message you get back from SMTP servers.
> 
> https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/adc634b0fd1a8b42305bf783f
> 06ac218
> 
> The question is: who got that email, and who didn't?

Looks like the problem is even worse. Gentoo mailing lists are not checking 
SPF records. This is Gentoo specific. Send it to a Gmail or other properly 
setup SMTP server and/or proxies and you should get a rejection per SPF.

Not only can gentoo.org email addresses be spoofed on Gentoo mailing lists, 
but so can individuals. Good thing I GPG sign my emails. But this IMHO is 
pretty embarrassing for an organization such as Gentoo.

Something is very off technically!

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, December 5, 2016 11:11:24 AM EST Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 12/05/2016 10:53 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> > Compose an email using my
> > email addresses and see what message you get back from SMTP servers.
> 
> "250 ok", from the looks of it.
> 
>   $ cat wlt.msg
>   Subject: Please, just stop.
>   From: William L. Thomson Jr. <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com>
>   To: wlt-ml@o-sinc.com
> 
>   Please, just stop.
>   $ sendmail wlt-ml@o-sinc.com < wlt.msg
> 
> It went through just fine:
> 
> Dec  5 11:09:59 mail2 postfix/smtp[31569]: 3tXV080H06z15Rg:
> to=<wlt-ml@o-sinc.com>,
> relay=mail1.obsidian-studios.com[173.230.135.215]:25, delay=535,
> delays=533/0.06/0.28/1.6, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 ok 1480954199 qp
> 17876)

Your email client and headers are off. This is why it came through.

X-Assp-Envelope-From: root@mail2.viabit.com
X-Assp-Intended-For: wlt-ml@o-sinc.com

Also my scoring in ASSP is to low, as it should have been rejected.

X-Assp-Received-SPF: none ip=65.246.80.16 mailfrom=root@mail2.viabit.com
	helo=mail2.viabit.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: assp1.obsidian-studios.com; spf=none
X-Assp-Message-Score: 20 (SPF none)
X-Assp-IP-Score: 20 (SPF none)
X-Assp-Message-Score: 25 (MX missing: mail2.viabit.com (Mail From:))
X-Assp-IP-Score: 25 (MX missing: mail2.viabit.com (Mail From:))
X-Assp-Tag: MessageLimit
X-Assp-Spam: YES (Probably)
X-Assp-Spam-Reason: MessageScore passed low limit
X-Assp-Message-Totalscore: 45
X-Assp-Spam-Level: **********

I will adjust this on my end. Thanks for pointing that out :) But ASSP did its 
job, just I had my scoring to low.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 12/05/2016 11:21 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> 
> I will adjust this on my end. Thanks for pointing that out :) But ASSP did its 
> job, just I had my scoring to low.
> 

Please let me know when you think you've fixed it, so I can prove
otherwise =P

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Monday, December 5, 2016 11:28:17 AM EST Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 12/05/2016 11:21 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> > I will adjust this on my end. Thanks for pointing that out :) But ASSP did
> > its job, just I had my scoring to low.
> 
> Please let me know when you think you've fixed it, so I can prove
> otherwise =P

Go ahead, spam me all you like. Others are welcome to the same. Its why I run 
ASSP for over a decade. I already lowered my scoring and showed you why it 
went through. You need to make sure your sending it as if you were me. I need 
to see the following.

X-Assp-Envelope-From: wlt-ml@o-sinc.com
X-Assp-Intended-For: wlt-ml@o-sinc.com

However you sent it before, it was not from me as you seemed to think. You can 
see ASSP saw the headers, and to ASSP the from address was

X-Assp-Envelope-From: root@mail2.viabit.com

You need to ensure your sending it as me to me. But even if you repeat, I 
lowered the threshold for scoring. It should be rejected now.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Pacho Ramos]

El lun, 05-12-2016 a las 11:39 -0500, William L. Thomson Jr. escribió:
> On Monday, December 5, 2016 11:28:17 AM EST Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> > 
> > On 12/05/2016 11:21 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> > > 
> > > I will adjust this on my end. Thanks for pointing that out :) But
> > > ASSP did
> > > its job, just I had my scoring to low.
> > 
> > Please let me know when you think you've fixed it, so I can prove
> > otherwise =P
> 
> Go ahead, spam me all you like. Others are welcome to the same. Its
> why I run 
> ASSP for over a decade. I already lowered my scoring and showed you
> why it 
> went through. You need to make sure your sending it as if you were
> me. I need 
> to see the following.
> 
> X-Assp-Envelope-From: wlt-ml@o-sinc.com
> X-Assp-Intended-For: wlt-ml@o-sinc.com
> 
> However you sent it before, it was not from me as you seemed to
> think. You can 
> see ASSP saw the headers, and to ASSP the from address was
> 
> X-Assp-Envelope-From: root@mail2.viabit.com
> 
> You need to ensure your sending it as me to me. But even if you
> repeat, I 
> lowered the threshold for scoring. It should be rejected now.
> 

Can we please try to stop derailing the mail threads? What is this
adding to the original topic of the thread? (if we are ever able to
remember it after lots of unrelated messages on this and other threads)

Re: [gentoo-project] Evidence of idella4's damage to Gentoo, please

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 12/05/2016 11:50 AM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
>>
>> You need to ensure your sending it as me to me. But even if you
>> repeat, I 
>> lowered the threshold for scoring. It should be rejected now.
>>
> 
> Can we please try to stop derailing the mail threads?

Sorry... my original point was that this retarded rant about our mail
servers accepting spoofed "From:" headers is unfounded.

The same message still goes through with a forged "From" header:

  $ sendmail -f michael@orlitzky.com wlt-ml@o-sinc.com < wlt.msg

Dec  5 11:52:53 mail2 postfix/smtp[19091]: 3tXVxJ0Dzbz15Rx:
to=<wlt-ml@o-sinc.com>,
relay=mail1.obsidian-studios.com[173.230.135.215]:25, delay=450,
delays=448/0.03/0.27/1.1, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 ok 1480956773 qp
18788)

Something is not "off" with our mail servers, and there is currently no
way to prevent "From" spoofing without significant collateral damage.

[gentoo-project] Infra response re SPF.

[Robin H. Johnson]

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This is the official infra response re SPF in this case.

On Mon, Dec 05, 2016 at 12:03:02PM -0500, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> Something is not "off" with our mail servers, and there is currently no
> way to prevent "From" spoofing without significant collateral damage.
Correct.

Infra does maintain an SPF page as well.
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Infrastructure/SPF

A lot of developers prefer to send mail out via their own mailservers,
and not use the Gentoo mailserver for outgoing mail. This means we
either need to allow them declare those servers, or make sure their mail
won't be rejected anyway.

Our base SPF rule as pointed out:
gentoo.org.	IN TXT "v=spf1 mx ptr include:%{l}.%{o}.spf.gentoo.org. ?all"

Most important is the ?all on the end, but the include bit needs further
explanation.

We have 4 choices for the terminal rule:

+all - allow everything. NOPE!
-all - strictly disallow everything not explicitly permitted. NOPE!
~all - softfail everything not explicitly permitted. MAYBE...
?all - make no statement. MAYBE...

There's an additional wrinkle, in that not all SPF validation
implementations support SPF macros. Notable this includes Gmail when
I last checked. SPF also has recursion depth problems (eg it's easy to
exceed the max depth in the specification).

If the macros are NOT supported, then using "~all" will result in
SpamAssassin contributing +1 to toward the spam score. "?all" will
contribute 0.0 to the score.

If the SPF implementation does supports macros, a developer with
their own mail server can get their own record (gentooSPF in LDAP):
| robbat2.gentoo.org.spf.gentoo.org. IN TXT "v=spf1 include:_spf.orbis-terrarum.net ~all"
So the complete evaluation is:
"mx ptr include:_spf.orbis-terrarum.net ~all ?all"
(_spf.orbis-terrarum.net expands to IP blocks and back to Gentoo)
And if you try to forge mail from me, you will get a SPF SOFTFAIL.

If the SPF implementation does NOT support macros, the SPF
evaluation is:
"mx ptr ?all"
And, if you tried to forge mail from me, it will be accepted.

Furthermore, we have some wildcards for the implementations that DO
support macros, to help improve scores and catch known cases:
lists.gentoo.org.spf.gentoo.org. IN TXT "v=spf1 a:lists.gentoo.org -all"
*.lists.gentoo.org.spf.gentoo.org. IN TXT "v=spf1 a:lists.gentoo.org -all"
*.gentoo.org.spf.gentoo.org. IN  TXT "v=spf1 ~all" (for unknown
developer names)

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Trustee & Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

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Re: [gentoo-project] Infra response re SPF.

[Alex Xu]

On Mon, 5 Dec 2016 19:25:52 +0000
"Robin H. Johnson" <robbat2@gentoo.org> wrote:

> This is the official infra response re SPF in this case.
> 
> On Mon, Dec 05, 2016 at 12:03:02PM -0500, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> > Something is not "off" with our mail servers, and there is
> > currently no way to prevent "From" spoofing without significant
> > collateral damage.  
> Correct.
> 
> Infra does maintain an SPF page as well.
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Infrastructure/SPF
> 
> A lot of developers prefer to send mail out via their own mailservers,
> and not use the Gentoo mailserver for outgoing mail. This means we
> either need to allow them declare those servers, or make sure their
> mail won't be rejected anyway.
> 
> Our base SPF rule as pointed out:
> gentoo.org.	IN TXT "v=spf1 mx ptr
> include:%{l}.%{o}.spf.gentoo.org. ?all"

isn't the "right" solution to just not allow that