* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 12:15 ` Anthony G. Basile
@ 2014-07-17 12:36 ` Samuli Suominen
2014-07-17 14:28 ` Richard Yao
2014-07-17 13:04 ` Rich Freeman
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread
From: Samuli Suominen @ 2014-07-17 12:36 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
On 17/07/14 15:15, Anthony G. Basile wrote:
> On 07/17/14 07:49, hasufell wrote:
>> Dirkjan Ochtman:
>>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 1:38 PM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>> Doesn't that make the vote invalid?
>>>
>>> I don't see why it would. Maybe if voters would have known in advance
>>> that their votes might be compromised.
>>>
>>
>> IMO, it doesn't matter if the violation had an effect on the result. It
>> matters that there was a violation of procedure.
>>
>
> Unfortunately it does have an effect since council members now know
> who voted for them and who didn't and this can make for bad feelings,
> impartiality etc. I'm not sure how to deal with this since a re-vote
> will not make this knowledge go away. While not a perfect solution,
> maybe we should just try to ignore it as much as possible?
>
For what's it worth, I couldn't care less if my voting is public or not,
it's nothing personal to anyone, it's only what I think is best for the
distribution
And I hope others feel the same way (even those whom didn't get elected)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 12:36 ` Samuli Suominen
@ 2014-07-17 14:28 ` Richard Yao
2014-07-17 17:37 ` Tom Wijsman
2014-07-17 17:50 ` Seemant Kulleen
0 siblings, 2 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: Richard Yao @ 2014-07-17 14:28 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org
> On Jul 17, 2014, at 8:36 AM, Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org> wrote:
> For what's it worth, I couldn't care less if my voting is public or not,
> it's nothing personal to anyone, it's only what I think is best for the
> distribution
>
> And I hope others feel the same way (even those whom didn't get elected)
>
I admit that I had some initial negative feelings when I saw that the only less popular option than myself was reopening nominations, but I got over it after realizing that people's opinions were none of my business. I had refrained from making unsolicited statements on my positions in the belief that someone should ask first, but none did.
I think that is unfortunate that no one asked and that the outcome might have been different had a single person asked, but c'est la vie. I bear no ill will toward anyone who cast a vote (or did not cast a vote). How people voted should have no bearing on the interactions between those voting and those on the ballot.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 14:28 ` Richard Yao
@ 2014-07-17 17:37 ` Tom Wijsman
2014-07-19 12:47 ` hasufell
2014-07-17 17:50 ` Seemant Kulleen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread
From: Tom Wijsman @ 2014-07-17 17:37 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project; +Cc: ryao
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On Thu, 17 Jul 2014 10:28:07 -0400
Richard Yao <ryao@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I admit that I had some initial negative feelings when I saw that the
> only less popular option than myself was reopening nominations, but I
> got over it after realizing that people's opinions were none of my
> business. I had refrained from making unsolicited statements on my
> positions in the belief that someone should ask first, but none did.
It appears that the Council stayed nearly the same; iotw, the community
confirms that they want the current Council to continue doing what
they've been doing (or give them a second chance or ...).
Given that, I'm fine with where I am in the sorting; especially since
they pursue a goal similar enough to what I wrote down in the manifesto.
You can consider to look at this from the positive side; given
master-council-201406 you can see that some people rank you high,
especially this time with confs-council-201406 you can see which people
rank you high. It can be of a surprise to you... :)
--
With kind regards,
Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer
E-mail address : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 17:37 ` Tom Wijsman
@ 2014-07-19 12:47 ` hasufell
2014-07-19 20:19 ` Tom Wijsman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread
From: hasufell @ 2014-07-19 12:47 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
Tom Wijsman:
> You can consider to look at this from the positive side; given
> master-council-201406 you can see that some people rank you high,
> especially this time with confs-council-201406 you can see which people
> rank you high. It can be of a surprise to you... :)
>
Thanks for telling people to look at confidential information that was
leaked by accident.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-19 12:47 ` hasufell
@ 2014-07-19 20:19 ` Tom Wijsman
2014-07-19 20:46 ` hasufell
0 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread
From: Tom Wijsman @ 2014-07-19 20:19 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project; +Cc: hasufell
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On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 12:47:39 +0000
hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Tom Wijsman:
> > You can consider to look at this from the positive side; given
> > master-council-201406 you can see that some people rank you high,
> > especially this time with confs-council-201406 you can see which
> > people rank you high. It can be of a surprise to you... :)
>
> Thanks for telling people to look at confidential information that was
> leaked by accident.
Thank you too, by explicitly quoting it you've pointed to it as well;
if you haven't noticed yet, it is quoted over and over again even before
my e-mail thus what you do is be a pot that calls the kettle black...
--
With kind regards,
Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer
E-mail address : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-19 20:19 ` Tom Wijsman
@ 2014-07-19 20:46 ` hasufell
2014-07-19 20:53 ` Seemant Kulleen
2014-07-19 21:03 ` Tom Wijsman
0 siblings, 2 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: hasufell @ 2014-07-19 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
Tom Wijsman:
> On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 12:47:39 +0000
> hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> Tom Wijsman:
>>> You can consider to look at this from the positive side; given
>>> master-council-201406 you can see that some people rank you high,
>>> especially this time with confs-council-201406 you can see which
>>> people rank you high. It can be of a surprise to you... :)
>>
>> Thanks for telling people to look at confidential information that was
>> leaked by accident.
>
> Thank you too, by explicitly quoting it you've pointed to it as well;
> if you haven't noticed yet, it is quoted over and over again even before
> my e-mail thus what you do is be a pot that calls the kettle black...
>
I'm not talking about quotes, I'm talking about your lack of attitude.
I hope you will never be an election official.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-19 20:46 ` hasufell
@ 2014-07-19 20:53 ` Seemant Kulleen
2014-07-19 21:03 ` Tom Wijsman
1 sibling, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: Seemant Kulleen @ 2014-07-19 20:53 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
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Can you two take the cat fighting offline please?
On Jul 19, 2014 1:46 PM, "hasufell" <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Tom Wijsman:
> > On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 12:47:39 +0000
> > hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Tom Wijsman:
> >>> You can consider to look at this from the positive side; given
> >>> master-council-201406 you can see that some people rank you high,
> >>> especially this time with confs-council-201406 you can see which
> >>> people rank you high. It can be of a surprise to you... :)
> >>
> >> Thanks for telling people to look at confidential information that was
> >> leaked by accident.
> >
> > Thank you too, by explicitly quoting it you've pointed to it as well;
> > if you haven't noticed yet, it is quoted over and over again even before
> > my e-mail thus what you do is be a pot that calls the kettle black...
> >
>
> I'm not talking about quotes, I'm talking about your lack of attitude.
>
> I hope you will never be an election official.
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-19 20:46 ` hasufell
2014-07-19 20:53 ` Seemant Kulleen
@ 2014-07-19 21:03 ` Tom Wijsman
1 sibling, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: Tom Wijsman @ 2014-07-19 21:03 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project; +Cc: hasufell
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On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 20:46:19 +0000
hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I'm not talking about quotes. [...]
So; that means that you are talking off-topic, about that kitchen stuff.
--
With kind regards,
Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer
E-mail address : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 14:28 ` Richard Yao
2014-07-17 17:37 ` Tom Wijsman
@ 2014-07-17 17:50 ` Seemant Kulleen
2014-07-18 3:06 ` Richard Yao
1 sibling, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread
From: Seemant Kulleen @ 2014-07-17 17:50 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
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I think it is unfortunate that you chose silence as your platform,
Richard. In an election with so many options, expecting people to ask you
why you stood means you want others to do work just to get to know your
option. That is neither fair nor scalable.
The result represents that. If you do something or want something, please
understand that it is your job to do express yourself, not the community's
job to pull from you.
Unspoken expectations are most likely to lead to disappointment, I suppose
:)
Cheers,
Seemant
On Jul 17, 2014 7:28 AM, "Richard Yao" <ryao@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 17, 2014, at 8:36 AM, Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> > For what's it worth, I couldn't care less if my voting is public or not,
> > it's nothing personal to anyone, it's only what I think is best for the
> > distribution
> >
> > And I hope others feel the same way (even those whom didn't get elected)
> >
>
> I admit that I had some initial negative feelings when I saw that the only
> less popular option than myself was reopening nominations, but I got over
> it after realizing that people's opinions were none of my business. I had
> refrained from making unsolicited statements on my positions in the belief
> that someone should ask first, but none did.
>
> I think that is unfortunate that no one asked and that the outcome might
> have been different had a single person asked, but c'est la vie. I bear no
> ill will toward anyone who cast a vote (or did not cast a vote). How people
> voted should have no bearing on the interactions between those voting and
> those on the ballot.
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 17:50 ` Seemant Kulleen
@ 2014-07-18 3:06 ` Richard Yao
2014-07-18 5:57 ` Ulrich Mueller
2014-07-18 10:07 ` Alexander Berntsen
0 siblings, 2 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: Richard Yao @ 2014-07-18 3:06 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org
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I felt that posting a platform before someone asked would be inappropriate, so I made the conscious decision to wait for a single person to ask before posting anything. No one asked, so I posted nothing.
> On Jul 17, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Seemant Kulleen <seemantk@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think it is unfortunate that you chose silence as your platform, Richard. In an election with so many options, expecting people to ask you why you stood means you want others to do work just to get to know your option. That is neither fair nor scalable.
>
> The result represents that. If you do something or want something, please understand that it is your job to do express yourself, not the community's job to pull from you.
>
> Unspoken expectations are most likely to lead to disappointment, I suppose :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Seemant
>
>> On Jul 17, 2014 7:28 AM, "Richard Yao" <ryao@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>> > On Jul 17, 2014, at 8:36 AM, Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> > For what's it worth, I couldn't care less if my voting is public or not,
>> > it's nothing personal to anyone, it's only what I think is best for the
>> > distribution
>> >
>> > And I hope others feel the same way (even those whom didn't get elected)
>> >
>>
>> I admit that I had some initial negative feelings when I saw that the only less popular option than myself was reopening nominations, but I got over it after realizing that people's opinions were none of my business. I had refrained from making unsolicited statements on my positions in the belief that someone should ask first, but none did.
>>
>> I think that is unfortunate that no one asked and that the outcome might have been different had a single person asked, but c'est la vie. I bear no ill will toward anyone who cast a vote (or did not cast a vote). How people voted should have no bearing on the interactions between those voting and those on the ballot.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-18 3:06 ` Richard Yao
@ 2014-07-18 5:57 ` Ulrich Mueller
2014-07-18 10:07 ` Alexander Berntsen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: Ulrich Mueller @ 2014-07-18 5:57 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
>>>>> On Thu, 17 Jul 2014, Richard Yao wrote:
> [...]
> On Jul 17, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Seemant Kulleen <seemantk@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> On Jul 17, 2014 7:28 AM, "Richard Yao" <ryao@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On Jul 17, 2014, at 8:36 AM, Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
>> [...]
> [...]
Please don't top-post.
Ulrich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-18 3:06 ` Richard Yao
2014-07-18 5:57 ` Ulrich Mueller
@ 2014-07-18 10:07 ` Alexander Berntsen
2014-07-18 11:37 ` Rich Freeman
1 sibling, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread
From: Alexander Berntsen @ 2014-07-18 10:07 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
On 18/07/14 05:06, Richard Yao wrote:
> I felt that posting a platform before someone asked would be
> inappropriate, so I made the conscious decision to wait for a
> single person to ask before posting anything. No one asked, so I
> posted nothing.
People are likely inclined to take this as either arrogance or
nonchalance -- i.e. like you could take a council position or leave
it. Please post something next time. You will likely be higher on my
list if you will.
- --
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-18 10:07 ` Alexander Berntsen
@ 2014-07-18 11:37 ` Rich Freeman
2014-07-19 12:58 ` Ciaran McCreesh
0 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2014-07-18 11:37 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 6:07 AM, Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> On 18/07/14 05:06, Richard Yao wrote:
>> I felt that posting a platform before someone asked would be
>> inappropriate, so I made the conscious decision to wait for a
>> single person to ask before posting anything. No one asked, so I
>> posted nothing.
> People are likely inclined to take this as either arrogance or
> nonchalance -- i.e. like you could take a council position or leave
> it. Please post something next time. You will likely be higher on my
> list if you will.
Live and learn...
Don't take rankings too personally. The algorithm has to stick
something at the top, and something at the bottom, and it isn't like
we have tons of dead wood on the ballot. Having somebody who
genuinely cares about Gentoo and wants to contribute coming in last
was a fairly likely outcome as a result.
Definitely don't take election results as some kind of judgement of
the work you're doing. Writing ebuilds, designing package managers,
being on Comrel, being a Trustee, being on Infra, and being on QA are
all very different roles - just to pick some examples. People look
for different things when voting about one vs the other. Also, most
who were elected were incumbents, and not being an incumbent isn't
something that anybody new can do anything about.
Just keep doing good work! The nice thing about Gentoo is that
anybody who wants to step up and take things in a new direction can do
so fairly easily as long as it doesn't impact the average experience.
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-18 11:37 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2014-07-19 12:58 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2014-07-19 13:14 ` Rich Freeman
2014-07-21 3:58 ` Donnie Berkholz
0 siblings, 2 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2014-07-19 12:58 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
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On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 07:37:09 -0400
Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Don't take rankings too personally. The algorithm has to stick
> something at the top, and something at the bottom, and it isn't like
> we have tons of dead wood on the ballot.
The more interesting issue is the number of times some people were
ranked below _ron, though. There are people serving on the Council who,
for some developers, are less preferable than rerunning the entire
election with new candidates.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-19 12:58 ` Ciaran McCreesh
@ 2014-07-19 13:14 ` Rich Freeman
2014-07-21 3:58 ` Donnie Berkholz
1 sibling, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2014-07-19 13:14 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 8:58 AM, Ciaran McCreesh
<ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 07:37:09 -0400
> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Don't take rankings too personally. The algorithm has to stick
>> something at the top, and something at the bottom, and it isn't like
>> we have tons of dead wood on the ballot.
>
> The more interesting issue is the number of times some people were
> ranked below _ron, though. There are people serving on the Council who,
> for some developers, are less preferable than rerunning the entire
> election with new candidates.
>
Whatever. Votes are preferences. I'd just as soon that people be
honest with them. I sometimes vote for people below reopen and I'm
not going to be bothered if some place me below it. You can never
elect a body that matches everybody's preferences, and I'd like to
think that people would tend to vote for council members that will
strive to at least try to represent everybody regardless of whether
they disagree.
For my part, if somebody thinks I'm about to do something stupid,
you're always welcome to let me know. I try to post my feelings on
any controversial issue on -project before any meeting to give people
the opportunity to do just that. I can't promise that I'll agree, but
I will listen with the assumption that devs in general are fairly
smart people. Usually I try to favor compromises that at least
provide some way for everybody to get what they want, since that is
the "Gentoo Way(TM)."
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-19 12:58 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2014-07-19 13:14 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2014-07-21 3:58 ` Donnie Berkholz
1 sibling, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: Donnie Berkholz @ 2014-07-21 3:58 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
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On 13:58 Sat 19 Jul , Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 07:37:09 -0400
> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Don't take rankings too personally. The algorithm has to stick
> > something at the top, and something at the bottom, and it isn't like
> > we have tons of dead wood on the ballot.
>
> The more interesting issue is the number of times some people were
> ranked below _ron, though. There are people serving on the Council who,
> for some developers, are less preferable than rerunning the entire
> election with new candidates.
It does suggest, as I have in the past, that we need a more flexible
mechanism for sizing the council. 7 was merely chosen to be the number
for the first election.
Might be worth some experimentation as to whenever _ron ends up above a
certain percentage for any given candidate, going back historically. The
overall effect would be similar to a minority veto on candidates by
shrinking the council rather than replacing them with someone else.
--
Thanks,
Donnie
Donnie Berkholz
Council Member / Sr. Developer, Gentoo Linux <http://dberkholz.com>
Analyst, RedMonk <http://redmonk.com/dberkholz/>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 12:15 ` Anthony G. Basile
2014-07-17 12:36 ` Samuli Suominen
@ 2014-07-17 13:04 ` Rich Freeman
2014-07-17 13:16 ` hasufell
2014-07-17 14:12 ` Richard Yao
2014-07-17 14:20 ` Ulrich Mueller
3 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2014-07-17 13:04 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 8:15 AM, Anthony G. Basile <blueness@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 07/17/14 07:49, hasufell wrote:
>>
>> Dirkjan Ochtman:
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 1:38 PM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't that make the vote invalid?
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't see why it would. Maybe if voters would have known in advance
>>> that their votes might be compromised.
>>>
>>
>> IMO, it doesn't matter if the violation had an effect on the result. It
>> matters that there was a violation of procedure.
>>
>
> Unfortunately it does have an effect since council members now know who
> voted for them and who didn't and this can make for bad feelings,
> impartiality etc. I'm not sure how to deal with this since a re-vote will
> not make this knowledge go away. While not a perfect solution, maybe we
> should just try to ignore it as much as possible?
Well, we could invoke the right to be forgotten, right? Problem solved.
I think the only practical option is to try to prevent something like
this from happening again, but I don't what to call in the UN to
supervise the elections team either. Let's just move on...
Re-voting doesn't seem likely to change anything and you could always
debate which is the "right" outcome. That would seem like a major
waste of time IMHO - as it is we won't have any substantive Council
meetings in July, and if we do a re-vote there probably won't be
anything serious in August either. If we try to rush a vote in a few
days then there will be complaints that people didn't get a chance to
vote for whatever reason.
I don't have strong feelings one way or another, but I would encourage
pragmatism...
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 13:04 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2014-07-17 13:16 ` hasufell
2014-07-17 14:26 ` Rich Freeman
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: hasufell @ 2014-07-17 13:16 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
Rich Freeman:
> I think the only practical option is to try to prevent something like
> this from happening again
The reason this happened is IMO not just the failure of an election
official, but the fact that it's technically even possible.
Why is there any mapping between id and developer name (or why have the
election officials access to this mapping... by definition it's already
a non-anonymous election then)?
I think it should be clear that this is also a technical issue and needs
to be improved.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 13:16 ` hasufell
@ 2014-07-17 14:26 ` Rich Freeman
2014-07-17 15:59 ` Alexander Berntsen
2014-07-17 17:14 ` Manuel Rüger
2014-07-18 7:01 ` Joshua Kinard
2 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2014-07-17 14:26 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 9:16 AM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Rich Freeman:
>> I think the only practical option is to try to prevent something like
>> this from happening again
>
> The reason this happened is IMO not just the failure of an election
> official, but the fact that it's technically even possible.
>
> Why is there any mapping between id and developer name (or why have the
> election officials access to this mapping... by definition it's already
> a non-anonymous election then)?
>
> I think it should be clear that this is also a technical issue and needs
> to be improved.
>
Sure, as much process as technical, but if the elections team is
looking for something to keep them busy until next year, this might be
worth some attention. It is also the sort of thing that anybody could
contribute to.
Heck, we could even migrate the sources to git while we're at it. :)
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 14:26 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2014-07-17 15:59 ` Alexander Berntsen
2014-07-17 16:29 ` hasufell
0 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread
From: Alexander Berntsen @ 2014-07-17 15:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
On 17/07/14 16:26, Rich Freeman wrote:
> Sure, as much process as technical, but if the elections team is
> looking for something to keep them busy until next year, this might
> be worth some attention. It is also the sort of thing that anybody
> could contribute to.
There's another technological and sociological solution to be
considered: defining the problem out of existence. I.e. make elections
transparent.
- --
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 15:59 ` Alexander Berntsen
@ 2014-07-17 16:29 ` hasufell
0 siblings, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: hasufell @ 2014-07-17 16:29 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
Alexander Berntsen:
> On 17/07/14 16:26, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> Sure, as much process as technical, but if the elections team is
>> looking for something to keep them busy until next year, this might
>> be worth some attention. It is also the sort of thing that anybody
>> could contribute to.
> There's another technological and sociological solution to be
> considered: defining the problem out of existence. I.e. make elections
> transparent.
And cause less people to vote?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 13:16 ` hasufell
2014-07-17 14:26 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2014-07-17 17:14 ` Manuel Rüger
2014-07-17 17:16 ` Rich Freeman
2014-07-18 0:59 ` Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
2014-07-18 7:01 ` Joshua Kinard
2 siblings, 2 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: Manuel Rüger @ 2014-07-17 17:14 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
On 07/17/2014 03:16 PM, hasufell wrote:
> Why is there any mapping between id and developer name (or why have
> the election officials access to this mapping... by definition it's
> already a non-anonymous election then)?
>
That's a valid point. Can an election official reply to it, please?
This is not meant in an offensive way, I'd just like to understand the
workflow of the election.
Cheers,
Manuel
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 17:14 ` Manuel Rüger
@ 2014-07-17 17:16 ` Rich Freeman
2014-07-17 17:49 ` Rich Freeman
2014-07-18 0:59 ` Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
1 sibling, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2014-07-17 17:16 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 1:14 PM, Manuel Rüger <mrueg@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On 07/17/2014 03:16 PM, hasufell wrote:
>> Why is there any mapping between id and developer name (or why have
>> the election officials access to this mapping... by definition it's
>> already a non-anonymous election then)?
>>
>
> That's a valid point. Can an election official reply to it, please?
>
> This is not meant in an offensive way, I'd just like to understand the
> workflow of the election.
Probably worth noting that even if we keep election officials blind,
Infra will still have access by virtue of having root on the
directories containing the ballots.
That would be solved by my proposal, potentially, but it is purely
vaporware now...
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 17:16 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2014-07-17 17:49 ` Rich Freeman
0 siblings, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2014-07-17 17:49 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> That would be solved by my proposal, potentially, but it is purely
> vaporware now...
>
Well, not entirely vaporware - apparently others have investigated this further:
http://crypto.stanford.edu/pbc/notes/crypto/voting.xhtml
My proposal would be method 1. Receipts could be viewed as a feature
or a bug depending on your perspective - for Gentoo it probably isn't
a big deal since nobody cares that much how we vote, and we have them
today.
What I couldn't find was any actual implementations. That sounds like
an interesting project.
I did spot Helios online, which seems to be a usable implementation
already. This does not use the algorithm above as far as I can tell
on first glance, but purports to solve the same basic problems. That
is probably worth a close examination as the project seems to be a
fairly serious one.
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 17:14 ` Manuel Rüger
2014-07-17 17:16 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2014-07-18 0:59 ` Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
1 sibling, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto @ 2014-07-18 0:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
On Thu, 17 Jul 2014, Manuel R?ger wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On 07/17/2014 03:16 PM, hasufell wrote:
>> Why is there any mapping between id and developer name (or why have
>> the election officials access to this mapping... by definition it's
>> already a non-anonymous election then)?
>>
>
> That's a valid point. Can an election official reply to it, please?
The election officials get the master ballot and the confirmatiion ids
file, so they can send each voter their confirmation id - that is an
important part of the election as that's what allows each voter to confirm
their ballot wasn't "tampered". This is how I was able to send the
confirmation emails to all voters.
Why do election officials get that mapping? Because the current election
software doesn't have any automatic method to take care of this and relies
in the election officials. This does mean that officials have access to
the ballots - and as others already mentioned, any infra team member has
access to the dirs in pecker.
Given the above, why are we using this election software? Because that's
what we've been using forever - at least this is what I was handed back in
2008 and believe goes back to azarah. I've looked in the past at
alternatives, exactly due to some of these concerns as well as other
technical issues that affect the software.
I've contacted the debian developer responsible by devotee[1] a few times
in the past, but didn't move forward as he had some plans to update it as
at the time it was too tied to debian's infra and I end up losing track of
this.
[1] - https://www.debian.org/vote/
> This is not meant in an offensive way, I'd just like to understand the
> workflow of the election.
No offense taken.
> Cheers,
>
> Manuel
>
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>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 13:16 ` hasufell
2014-07-17 14:26 ` Rich Freeman
2014-07-17 17:14 ` Manuel Rüger
@ 2014-07-18 7:01 ` Joshua Kinard
2014-07-18 9:39 ` Rich Freeman
2 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread
From: Joshua Kinard @ 2014-07-18 7:01 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
On 07/17/2014 09:16, hasufell wrote:
> Rich Freeman:
>> I think the only practical option is to try to prevent something like
>> this from happening again
>
> The reason this happened is IMO not just the failure of an election
> official, but the fact that it's technically even possible.
>
> Why is there any mapping between id and developer name (or why have the
> election officials access to this mapping... by definition it's already
> a non-anonymous election then)?
>
> I think it should be clear that this is also a technical issue and needs
> to be improved.
Maybe instead of developer name, the mapping should be between conf id and
developer UID on woodpecker for purposes of uniquely validating the vote.
Possibly even a dedicated and unique voting ID (VID), stored only in LDAP,
visible only to the developer (I think this is possible, though I'll assume
that infra can see everything anyways).
When the votes are tallied, these VIDs are hashed and the election officials
can only see the link between conf id and the hash, but the software can be
granted some LDAP read permission to look the VID up and auto-generate an
e-mail to that dev's mbox directly.
Doesn't eliminate the possibility of someone sleuthing around to eventually
link dev -> conf id, but in the event this happens in the future, the file
containing the linkages will only show hashes -> conf id.
</brainstorm>
--
Joshua Kinard
Gentoo/MIPS
kumba@gentoo.org
4096R/D25D95E3 2011-03-28
"The past tempts us, the present confuses us, the future frightens us. And
our lives slip away, moment by moment, lost in that vast, terrible in-between."
--Emperor Turhan, Centauri Republic
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-18 7:01 ` Joshua Kinard
@ 2014-07-18 9:39 ` Rich Freeman
0 siblings, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2014-07-18 9:39 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:01 AM, Joshua Kinard <kumba@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 07/17/2014 09:16, hasufell wrote:
>> Rich Freeman:
>
> Doesn't eliminate the possibility of someone sleuthing around to eventually
> link dev -> conf id, but in the event this happens in the future, the file
> containing the linkages will only show hashes -> conf id.
>
Well, if you want to do something simple to obfuscate the dev->ID
mapping, why not just have votify generate a random ID when creating
the initial ballot, and store it in the ballot file? Then the dev
knows what their ID is, since they can see it, and there is no need to
email it to them. The only way for anybody else to find out is to go
poking in home directories to look at the files. ID length would
ensure uniqueness, or you could use a GUID of some sort.
That is the approach those blind signing protocols use - the voter
generates a unique ID and thus can ID their votes in the master
ballot. All the extra magic in those designs allow them to do it
without even infra being able to ID them, but you can get the
user-generated-ID benefits easily enough without doing all the crypto.
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 12:15 ` Anthony G. Basile
2014-07-17 12:36 ` Samuli Suominen
2014-07-17 13:04 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2014-07-17 14:12 ` Richard Yao
2014-07-17 14:20 ` Ulrich Mueller
3 siblings, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: Richard Yao @ 2014-07-17 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org
It is regrettable that the leak occurred, but I think the impact of the leak is overblown. If any council member feels that his ability to make sound technical judgments was compromised by the leak, then he should resign. If none believe that they have been compromised, then I see no reason to worry about "bad winners". We presumably voted on our perceptions of the technical decisions that others would make. Knowledge of how people voted is irrelevant in making technical decisions.
That being said, I am concerned about retribution in the form of harassment from the losers. Such behavior has no place in an open source project, but I fear that not everyone subscribes to this ideal. Little can be done about those that do not, but c'est la vie.
The most we can do now is to endeavor to prevent recurrences of this leak. I think it is important that the election officials not "beat themselves up" over this. Nothing is a better teacher than experience and any feelings of regret are best channelled into the positive outlet of being more careful in the future. e.g. making a checklist of what to do and another checklist of what not to do.
> On Jul 17, 2014, at 8:15 AM, "Anthony G. Basile" <blueness@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> On 07/17/14 07:49, hasufell wrote:
>> Dirkjan Ochtman:
>>>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 1:38 PM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>> Doesn't that make the vote invalid?
>>>
>>> I don't see why it would. Maybe if voters would have known in advance
>>> that their votes might be compromised.
>>
>> IMO, it doesn't matter if the violation had an effect on the result. It
>> matters that there was a violation of procedure.
>
> Unfortunately it does have an effect since council members now know who voted for them and who didn't and this can make for bad feelings, impartiality etc. I'm not sure how to deal with this since a re-vote will not make this knowledge go away. While not a perfect solution, maybe we should just try to ignore it as much as possible?
>
> --
> Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D.
> Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened]
> E-Mail : blueness@gentoo.org
> GnuPG FP : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA
> GnuPG ID : F52D4BBA
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council Elections Results for term 2014-2015
2014-07-17 12:15 ` Anthony G. Basile
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2014-07-17 14:12 ` Richard Yao
@ 2014-07-17 14:20 ` Ulrich Mueller
3 siblings, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread
From: Ulrich Mueller @ 2014-07-17 14:20 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 374 bytes --]
>>>>> On Thu, 17 Jul 2014, Anthony G Basile wrote:
> Unfortunately it does have an effect since council members now
> know who voted for them and who didn't and this can make for bad
> feelings, impartiality etc.
For my part, I haven't looked up any confirmation IDs (except my own
one which was sent to me in the confirmation e-mail) and I don't
intend to do so.
Ulrich
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread