From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 819451382C5 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 06:13:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 332EAE0BFA; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 06:13:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-it0-x22f.google.com (mail-it0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D86FDE0BBA for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 06:13:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-it0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id z143-v6so7221507itc.0 for ; Sun, 01 Apr 2018 23:13:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=funtoo-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=g9kx19nd2H9QCPf0IT7eMKH89wEsWkSwih4Jf1GY9K4=; b=hzXH+f8wXLRnerVWx3LGBh85zdmJ0WbgMXitTsVs4ImZhnVPrVgQImgRaY4JqSxBS0 givndbub1FZmQMthbMmkGKmhhzPiRgqug2ZtM6X4uEZi28RpiCKNUckltT0Ak72RQ0PJ Jo+/dMcF/kDexTrIrlOAwBofhaDGRXz1iR/cpsdt/kBUFkXf6dlR8zYXP83rc+nuQA3s o7VzqRO94pZxk6Rm7cGIcv2i1Enq4dNyTVvRlQUcEUzpQtUH0aU0/Cb12Sp5F2BKytIy 0sWlKeLTrF6I4T1lzDntZMrp5Lw4xVDcRLsDu2BhAlN/H4uTYJLTay+ntG6XRp4PNTg+ muew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=g9kx19nd2H9QCPf0IT7eMKH89wEsWkSwih4Jf1GY9K4=; b=nAa46wVUJdmo7tp8CNNpyQGFl2L+S1RHradkQGST44rxGa08jahUgAq9B1PfaJj8iv XsQ9w0EsvF8HqzdAXCaA7lWFYUQB2YwkDaV85gpbY3rSVtU+wO4RCgh43cqqNDViMfQ6 ysXCJF+NSE8hr40pACFwhunjJLejH9qb1vb7iF+8zbq0snuFQ6DxKYb3PLp/sIS3CZp2 M8TLexvoPo9FMPF1oeyORiv3OaZ2kAIb89KJgb+jRwhFQuFi5WDZ/Won0oeq2pX2nxVr p4al3Td/BOeGFx5eosMJ3GoMVm0Y0EQP4InsHJldUrr92l/QO0rENBX8+gbq8h7xkzLC MH+g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tD3KxXUCzP8EDj3Lkc3rZSDD7g76Q8LJTEmG/npITeMIex+x/PD XsMtXpHDZvDlvXWFTT8faZIyizGv8U2DXhIMdeXoT7GRefM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+uL0GxpuDoAqKY6danwlmVqKnjDVrUQaPfqzZOv7pfgU8LS9RmbIwT5AiEJYGuBG6nGggiL4cQFQ6aMbFAgxM= X-Received: by 2002:a24:7dcc:: with SMTP id b195-v6mr10898063itc.149.1522649623190; Sun, 01 Apr 2018 23:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.79.78.215 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Apr 2018 23:13:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Robbins Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2018 00:13:42 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: [gentoo-project] Burden of proof To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e871320568d77d6a" X-Archives-Salt: 8565bf75-7fbc-4d65-bfd8-dea1e84d478c X-Archives-Hash: 455500c3096092d5c659c3242ab0ba31 --000000000000e871320568d77d6a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I am going to post some things I have seen from a Council member, and people can judge whether this is appropriate. First, mgorny derails a technical conversation to lecture and berate me, saying "now I see why you've never returned to Gentoo", in #gentoo-portage: [technical conversation.... ] 2018-02-24 04:48:54 [Arfrever] drobbins: See this example (version-conditional exec()): https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/portage.git/tree/pym/portage/process.py?id=39c797992bcdf8403521d8b61bb3e592135b3307#n196 2018-02-24 05:28:01 drobbins [Arfrever]: yes, so that's all code that can now be removed. 2018-02-24 05:28:19 drobbins the concept is that it adds to the LOC count, doesn't add any functionality 2018-02-24 05:28:46 drobbins it's an awesome exercise in backwards compatibility that doesn't have a large benefit on a distro that is moving to 3.6. 2018-02-24 05:56:09 --> zmedico (~quassel@gentoo/developer/zmedico) has joined #gentoo-portage 2018-02-24 07:32:21 -- perfinio1 is now known as perfinion 2018-02-24 08:24:51 mgorny drobbins: are you convinced someone will actually remove all the compat cruft? 2018-02-24 08:25:12 mgorny portage is practically unmaintained, so i'd rather not make major changes like making upgrades a nightmare for the sake of few patches 2018-02-24 08:32:44 <-- Shentino (~Shentino@unaffiliated/shentino) has quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-02-24 08:33:05 --> Shentino (~Shentino@unaffiliated/shentino) has joined #gentoo-portage 2018-02-24 08:33:41 drobbins mgorny: yes, I am convinced, and it just allows a lot of compat code to be dropped. 2018-02-24 08:35:01 drobbins there is additional work and complexity involved in adding functionality and maintaining compatibility with 2.7 2018-02-24 08:35:23 drobbins so if you feel that portage is not maintained enough, this will help reduce the work load 2018-02-24 08:35:49 mgorny 'helping reduce the work load' does not imply the work will actually happen 2018-02-24 08:35:58 mgorny most important goals so far don't have much py2/py3 trouble 2018-02-24 08:36:19 mgorny and adding extra complexity to make things faster when they need to be made correct first is not helpful 2018-02-24 08:36:34 drobbins there is an effort to integrate async functionality into portage which is hampered by 2.7 compatibility 2018-02-24 08:36:54 drobbins it actually reduces complexity, but whatever. It seems you are convinced it's a bad idea. 2018-02-24 08:38:57 drobbins standardizing on the official async implementation rather than using a home-grown one for compatibility with python 2.7 seems like a win to me 2018-02-24 08:39:11 mgorny i'd like to see async working correctly first 2018-02-24 08:39:25 drobbins what do you mean? 2018-02-24 08:39:36 mgorny there is the socks proxy for distcc written using async, and it has serious exception handling problems 2018-02-24 08:39:48 mgorny or signal handling 2018-02-24 08:40:24 <-- Zero_Chaos (~zerochaos@gentoo/developer/pentoo/zerochaos) has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-02-24 08:40:53 drobbins I don't think that is indicative of the python async implementation [mgorny loses it....] 2018-02-24 08:41:02 --> Zero_Chaos (~zerochaos@gentoo/developer/pentoo/zerochaos) has joined #gentoo-portage 2018-02-24 08:41:41 mgorny w/e 2018-02-24 08:41:47 mgorny portage API is a horrible pile of cheap hacks 2018-02-24 08:41:53 mgorny that needs to be fixed to make it useful 2018-02-24 08:42:02 mgorny not added more hacks so that cheap hacks may be a bit faster 2018-02-24 08:42:11 drobbins agreed 2018-02-24 08:42:25 drobbins that is a good reason to use an actual language feature instead of a roll-your-own async implementation 2018-02-24 08:42:36 drobbins since one is now available. 2018-02-24 08:43:02 drobbins I needed to get my tree regeneration going a lot faster. It now takes 65 mins instead of over 4 hours. 2018-02-24 08:43:34 drobbins I think that zmedico is trying to do things not as hacks but have a strategic plan for implementing new technology 2018-02-24 08:43:51 mgorny so you had a broken scripting, and instead of fixing it you're adding hacks to portage to workaround your problem 2018-02-24 08:44:03 drobbins how was my scripting broken? 2018-02-24 08:44:07 drobbins since you know so much 2018-02-24 08:44:07 mgorny (protip: egencache has --jobs) 2018-02-24 08:44:32 drobbins protip: egencache does not function when you are working on assembling trees that you haven't generated metadata for yet 2018-02-24 08:44:47 mgorny then you should've generated the metadata first 2018-02-24 08:44:54 drobbins and protip: don't protip me 2018-02-24 08:45:19 mgorny (or used trees with metadata) 2018-02-24 08:45:19 mgorny (or shouldn't be assembling stuff in the first place) 2018-02-24 08:45:19 drobbins oh yes, you are right. 2018-02-24 08:45:28 drobbins thanks for the correction ;) 2018-02-24 08:45:55 mgorny the multi-repo model has implemented for a reason 2018-02-24 08:45:56 drobbins anything else you'd like to correct me on? 2018-02-24 08:46:49 mgorny your attitude 2018-02-24 08:47:04 drobbins what is wrong with my attitude? 2018-02-24 08:47:15 mgorny now i see why you've never really returned to gentoo 2018-02-24 08:47:21 * mgorny out 2018-02-24 08:47:23 <-- mgorny (~quassel@gentoo/developer/mgorny) has left #gentoo-portage ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.") 2018-02-24 08:48:58 drobbins I agree, mgorny out. 2018-02-24 08:49:46 drobbins why does he get so pissed all the time? 2018-02-24 08:51:35 zmedico that's a good question 2018-02-24 08:52:07 slyfox_ i don't think it's you specifically 2018-02-24 08:53:56 zmedico psychology is a complex topic --000000000000e871320568d77d6a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am going to post some things I have seen from a Council = member, and people can judge whether this is appropriate. First, mgorny der= ails a technical conversation to lecture and berate me, saying "now I = see why you've never returned to Gentoo", in #gentoo-portage:
=

[technical conversation.... ]

=
2018-02-24 04:48:54=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Arfrever]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = drobbins: See this example (version-conditional exec()): https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/por= tage.git/tree/pym/portage/process.py?id=3D39c797992bcdf8403521d8b61bb3e5921= 35b3307#n196
2018-02-24 05:28:01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Arfrever]: yes, so that's all code that ca= n now be removed.
2018-02-24 05:28:19=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the concept is that it adds to the LOC count, d= oesn't add any functionality
2018-02-24 05:28:46=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 it's an awesome exercise in = backwards compatibility that doesn't have a large benefit on a distro t= hat is moving to 3.6.
2018-02-24 05:56:09=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--&g= t;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0zmedico (~quassel@gentoo/developer/zmedico) has joine= d #gentoo-portage
2018-02-24 07:32:21=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 perfinio1 is now known as perfinion
2018-02-24 08:= 24:51=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 drobbins: are you convinced someone w= ill actually remove all the compat cruft?
2018-02-24 08:25:12=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 portage is practically unmaintained, so i'= ;d rather not make major changes like making upgrades a nightmare for the s= ake of few patches
2018-02-24 08:32:44=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<--= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Shentino (~Shentino@unaffiliated/shentino) has quit (Re= mote host closed the connection)
2018-02-24 08:33:05=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0-->=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Shentino (~Shentino@unaffiliated/shentino)= has joined #gentoo-portage
2018-02-24 08:33:41=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mgorny: yes, I am convinced, and it = just allows a lot of compat code to be dropped.
2018-02-24 08:35:= 01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there is addition= al work and complexity involved in adding functionality and maintaining com= patibility with 2.7
2018-02-24 08:35:23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbi= ns=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 so if you feel that portage is not maintained= enough, this will help reduce the work load
2018-02-24 08:35:49= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 'helping reduce the work load' doe= s not imply the work will actually happen
2018-02-24 08:35:58=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 most important goals so far don't have mu= ch py2/py3 trouble
2018-02-24 08:36:19=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorny= =C2=A0 and adding extra complexity to make things faster when they need to = be made correct first is not helpful
2018-02-24 08:36:34=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there is an effort to inte= grate async functionality into portage which is hampered by 2.7 compatibili= ty
2018-02-24 08:36:54=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 it actually reduces complexity, but whatever. It seems you ar= e convinced it's a bad idea.
2018-02-24 08:38:57=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 standardizing on the official as= ync implementation rather than using a home-grown one for compatibility wit= h python 2.7 seems like a win to me
2018-02-24 08:39:11=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 i'd like to see async working correctly first
2018-02-24 08:39:25=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 what do you mean?
2018-02-24 08:39:36=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= mgorny=C2=A0 there is the socks proxy for distcc written using async, and i= t has serious exception handling problems
2018-02-24 08:39:48=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 or signal handling
2018-02-24 08:40= :24=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<--=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Zero_Chaos (~zerochaos@gen= too/developer/pentoo/zerochaos) has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
<= div>2018-02-24 08:40:53=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 I don't think that is indicative of the python async implementation=

[mgorny loses it....]

<= div>
2018-02-24 08:41:02=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-->=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Z= ero_Chaos (~zerochaos@gentoo/developer/pentoo/zerochaos) has joined #gentoo= -portage
2018-02-24 08:41:41=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 w/e<= /div>
2018-02-24 08:41:47=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 portage API i= s a horrible pile of cheap hacks
2018-02-24 08:41:53=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 that needs to be fixed to make it useful
2018= -02-24 08:42:02=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 not added more hacks so tha= t cheap hacks may be a bit faster
2018-02-24 08:42:11=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 agreed
2018-02-24 0= 8:42:25=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is a go= od reason to use an actual language feature instead of a roll-your-own asyn= c implementation
2018-02-24 08:42:36=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 since one is now available.
2018-02-2= 4 08:43:02=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I needed = to get my tree regeneration going a lot faster. It now takes 65 mins instea= d of over 4 hours.
2018-02-24 08:43:34=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbin= s=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think that zmedico is trying to do things no= t as hacks but have a strategic plan for implementing new technology
<= div>2018-02-24 08:43:51=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 so you had a broken= scripting, and instead of fixing it you're adding hacks to portage to = workaround your problem
2018-02-24 08:44:03=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0dr= obbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 how was my scripting broken?
20= 18-02-24 08:44:07=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 si= nce you know so much
2018-02-24 08:44:07=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorn= y=C2=A0 (protip: egencache has --jobs)
2018-02-24 08:44:32=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 protip: egencache does not= function when you are working on assembling trees that you haven't gen= erated metadata for yet
2018-02-24 08:44:47=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mg= orny=C2=A0 then you should've generated the metadata first
20= 18-02-24 08:44:54=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 an= d protip: don't protip me
2018-02-24 08:45:19=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 (or used trees with metadata)
2018-02-24 08:45= :19=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 (or shouldn't be assembling stuff i= n the first place)
2018-02-24 08:45:19=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbin= s=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 oh yes, you are right.
2018-02-24 08= :45:28=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 thanks for th= e correction ;)
2018-02-24 08:45:55=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorny=C2= =A0 the multi-repo model has implemented for a reason
2018-02-24 = 08:45:56=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 anything el= se you'd like to correct me on?
2018-02-24 08:46:49=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 your attitude
2018-02-24 08:47:04=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 what is wrong with my atti= tude?
2018-02-24 08:47:15=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorny=C2=A0 now i s= ee why you've never really returned to gentoo
2018-02-24 08:4= 7:21=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mgorny out
2018-02= -24 08:47:23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<--=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mgorny (~quassel@= gentoo/developer/mgorny) has left #gentoo-portage ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.&q= uot;)
2018-02-24 08:48:58=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I agree, mgorny out.
2018-02-24 08:49:46=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0drobbins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 why does he get so pissed = all the time?
2018-02-24 08:51:35=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0zmedico that= 's a good question
2018-02-24 08:52:07=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sly= fox_ i don't think it's you specifically
2018-02-24 08:53= :56=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0zmedico psychology is a complex topic

--000000000000e871320568d77d6a--