From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067E0138A1A for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2015 23:02:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 69401E08C4; Wed, 21 Jan 2015 23:02:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pa0-f52.google.com (mail-pa0-f52.google.com [209.85.220.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDB6DE08B8 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2015 23:02:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id kx10so25235535pab.11 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2015 15:02:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=tFaxTohXNRu4EtwXhWemzf3ZMEgWoYRutpS4bfz47fc=; b=kyGI12fbArFDpdigvOj6PT+GlL8woJ6zdcFv2Q+VM3ss5ShydjOMt+pVt8U/7kIUTg jFGs8N2SPjaew7qSlN3Csn902XFPZus6s2WK8cfGIdqXaQQXDI3qIKkI2xx6tF4hIiqt 5UGyLT2I7f8kmAhTUwEpGW2c1LYJ3/hJx32ZF1VtTOmVs4N+GZbYoTUu2UpDV6RMJyuy Ee1pBP0hq7gpEgql/ZyocF5cMte506i0RJURlaYAeYC6lfBqrF55of0Yih/nXmxXbwha QCSHbHEb9Z/tc10rZ5rF6pf7f6SPEAl0yqBr0I9TAKd4WdPMvGOhO1SOEB8opoSb1Xcl W1eQ== X-Received: by 10.66.157.67 with SMTP id wk3mr66021165pab.95.1421881352678; Wed, 21 Jan 2015 15:02:32 -0800 (PST) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.70.37.197 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jan 2015 15:02:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20150114034323.GA22358@comet.hsd1.mn.comcast.net> <54B7D189.1000108@gentoo.org> <20150115191001.GD22358@comet.hsd1.mn.comcast.net> <54BF2444.20106@gentoo.org> <54BFD57E.3020704@hasufell.de> <54C007DE.306@gentoo.org> From: Seemant Kulleen Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 15:02:12 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Some focus for Gentoo To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Cc: hasufell Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b86e36cf07153050d318c79 X-Archives-Salt: 6ef049df-01e7-4a99-ba38-c38698a6cda9 X-Archives-Hash: e6fed2f0d1359ff677c6eb40955a4dd0 --047d7b86e36cf07153050d318c79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Please understand my context: I absolutely love Gentoo Linux -- it's been that way since some March day in early 2001. On 21 January 2015 at 12:44, Rich Freeman wrote: > > I'm not saying that anything bundles libs... SONAME, etc). > > I don't see how you'd check for vulnerable libraries other than using > heuristics > . T > Such a model also only promotes choice to a degree. > > but the > only thing as a Council we really have the power to do is to forbid > people from working on other things, or to expel hot air. The latter > can accomplish some good, but not much. > The Council's power is irrelevant this early in the discussion. No offense intended, but I see too many posts talking about Council's limited powers, and the fact that the Council can really only talk, but all that is fodder for a different thread. I would absolutely LOVE IT if the Council (and its members) would refrain from further expellations of hot air. Silence is not only more preferable, but more factually correct in such situations. > If I had solutions I'd be posting them. Apologies if it seems like > I'm nitpicking. The thing is that while the status quo has some clear > deficiencies, in some ways it is also the best Gentoo has really ever > been. > It's not the nitpicking as such, but the irrelevant tangents that make for difficult to consume wall-of-text emails. And no, it is NOT the best that Gentoo has ever been. Gentoo has yet to actually be the best it can be. That requires -- drum roll -- FOCUS! Gentoo is bloated and slow and takes forever and is full of fighting on the mailing lists. That last item is the only thing that's remained consistent. > Or put another way, where else are we going to go? Maybe that is why > so many of us that seem to have so much conflict with each other all > stick around. > Not sure what this is about (I almost snipped it). As someone who only ever uses Gentoo Linux, the thing I want to know from the developer community is: what exactly are you building? It's not a choice machine. Gentoo hasn't ever been a choice machine. I've been seeing variations of "Gentoo is about choice. Right? Right???" for a while now. It isn't -- it's about providing sensible options as alternatives to sensible defaults. The danger of stopping at "but but it's about choice!! CHOICE!!!!!!!eleven!!" is that the shit will not stop at that point. Any arbitrary damned thing becomes a choice (USE flag bloat makes those flags basically useless, for example). Here's what hasn't changed in the Gentoo experience: the emotion of fulfillment, achievement and satisfaction after that initial install -- the install you really care about. That feeling, that "je ne sais quoi" (I dunno what) -- that emotion is unique to the Gentoo experience. Instead of endless technical upmanships in these posts, I'd prefer to see the developer and leader community focus on the Gentoo experience as a product, and figure out how to maximise delivery of the Gentoogasm. Cheers, Seemant --047d7b86e36cf07153050d318c79 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please understand my context: I absolutely love Gentoo Lin= ux -- it's been that way since some March day in early 2001.
On 21 January 2015 = at 12:44, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

I'm not saying that anything bundles libs... SONAME, etc).
<snipped unnecessary technical tangent.>
=C2=A0
I don't see how you'd check for vulnerable libraries other than usi= ng
heuristics
<snipped unnecessary technical suppositi= on>.=C2=A0 T

=C2=A0
Such a model also only promotes choice to a degree.
&l= t;snipped redundant argument about choice -- not different from current sta= tus quo>
=C2=A0
<snipped bginning of this> but the
only thing as a Council we really have the power to do is to forbid
people from working on other things, or to expel hot air.=C2=A0 The latter<= br> can accomplish some good, but not much.

The Council's power is irrelevant this early i= n the discussion.
No offense intended, but I see too many posts talking = about Council's limited powers, and the fact that the Council can reall= y only talk, but all that is fodder for a different thread.

I would absolutely LOVE IT if the Council (and its members) would refrai= n from further expellations of hot air.=C2=A0 Silence is not only more pref= erable, but more factually correct in such situations.
=C2=A0=
If I had solutions I'd be posting them.=C2=A0 Apologies if it se= ems like
I'm nitpicking.=C2=A0 The thing is that while the status quo has some c= lear
deficiencies, in some ways it is also the best Gentoo has really ever
been.

It's not the nitpicking as su= ch, but the irrelevant tangents that make for difficult to consume wall-of-= text emails.

And no, it is NOT the best that G= entoo has ever been.=C2=A0 Gentoo has yet to actually be the best it can be= .
That requires -- drum roll -- FOCUS!

Gent= oo is bloated and slow and takes forever and is full of fighting on the mai= ling lists.=C2=A0 That last item is the only thing that's remained cons= istent.
=C2=A0
Or put another way, where else are we going to go?=C2=A0 Maybe that is why<= br> so many of us that seem to have so much conflict with each other all
stick around.

Not sure what this is abo= ut (I almost snipped it).

As someone who only ever uses Gentoo= Linux, the thing I want to know from the developer community is: what exac= tly are you building?

It's not = a choice machine.=C2=A0 Gentoo hasn't ever been a choice machine. I'= ;ve been seeing variations of "Gentoo is about choice. Right?=C2=A0 Ri= ght???" for a while now.

It is= n't -- it's about providing sensible options as alternatives to sen= sible defaults.=C2=A0 The danger of stopping at "but but it's abou= t choice!! CHOICE!!!!!!!eleven!!"=C2=A0 is that the shit will not stop= at that point.=C2=A0 Any arbitrary damned thing becomes a choice (USE flag= bloat makes those flags basically useless, for example).

Here= 's what hasn't changed in the Gentoo experience: the emotion of ful= fillment, achievement and satisfaction after that initial install -- the in= stall you really care about.

That f= eeling, that "je ne sais quoi" (I dunno what) -- that emotion is = unique to the Gentoo experience.

In= stead of endless technical upmanships in these posts, I'd prefer to see= the developer and leader community focus on the Gentoo experience as a pro= duct, and figure out how to maximise delivery of the Gentoogasm.

Cheers,
S= eemant

<= br>
--047d7b86e36cf07153050d318c79--