From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8A0138A1A for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2015 00:07:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D26F0E08F2; Mon, 16 Feb 2015 00:06:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pd0-f182.google.com (mail-pd0-f182.google.com [209.85.192.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B06EE08EA for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2015 00:06:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pdbfp1 with SMTP id fp1so31340711pdb.9 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2015 16:06:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=dPjZ8vG46Dgs9oF8YMnBHdnDJQTnlKUk1r71H8uWR0E=; b=WRLS2UnoXHg4qv+Cl+JndMKxSPNaVsHJiqYRXr7C8JWaA6yDxs37XGFFdsTDmREdKP Vq+1dr7M1TowMz30juSRrW1ZGz61izwl6yrKmHqqh6YT+aHWJCM933+OB7hYfH3oSk6i n6H3Sob4idPzcJAHbsrELarEmM5izTrxV2Y+iaO3bLfvtR6LkROU5vRx90DAL5WTAXM5 l2zXAphh68obEZFZ1CoZtzY8k6jiKR9JEeTRq8qHD9qMiclfSDmGs5nJw+Dm72Dn36nl 0/nB9l+H0dd0R9rh2H4ofQeBWdJj3HmMTBmbmoM7pWQU3gNHnK5se4/0DRMc0LfE8cG9 SeJg== Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.233.74 with SMTP id tu10mr34696506pac.135.1424045217406; Sun, 15 Feb 2015 16:06:57 -0800 (PST) Sender: freemanrich@gmail.com Received: by 10.70.85.39 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Feb 2015 16:06:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <54E12A9C.3080803@gentoo.org> References: <201502142148.30540.dilfridge@gentoo.org> <20150215070454.12e20dda@pomiot.lan> <54E0C6B2.1080004@gentoo.org> <20150215174248.29a9621b@googlemail.com> <54E12A9C.3080803@gentoo.org> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 19:06:57 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Ef7Tg3gSIC5haLRB4w3YO0fslDM Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo, GitHub, and the Social Contract From: Rich Freeman To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Archives-Salt: fa866b71-8502-4280-9fee-885afc6524de X-Archives-Hash: 3ee3f309e05326764beea07a2b5ea01f On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Patrick Lauer wrote: > On 02/16/15 01:42, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: >> On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 11:17:54 -0500 >> "Anthony G. Basile" wrote: >>> But the big difference here is that github is a company while infra >>> is volunteer work. >> >> And the equipment and hosting is paid for by... >> > > Volunteers. > Honestly, it is a lot more complex than that. Infra could probably provide a better overview, but I'm not sure how much time they want to spend on giving one, so I'll muddle through as best I can from what I've seen in my time as a Trustee. Gentoo infra consists of many elements. There is the hardware, the maintenance of the hardware, the OS/software and the maintenance of that, and the money to pay for all that stuff. One of the largest areas of infra by volume are the mirrors. These are almost entirely hands-off on Gentoo's part as far as I'm aware. They're mostly donated by organizations, and they're told how to set them up, and they just run some Gentoo-provided scripts/etc to stay up to date. The money/labor to keep them running/bandwidth/etc is all donated by the mirror hosts. I'm sure that if something goes wrong somebody from Gentoo infra helps them out, so there probably is a bit of labor on their part. Not really anything in the way of "equipment and hosting" though. Then you have the core infra. This is stuff where infra spends the bulk of its time. As I understand it some of the hardware is Gentoo-owned, and some of it is owned by sponsors who provide infra access to it. Almost all of this stuff has a sponsor providing hosting/network/power/etc, and generally if a disk dies or whatever it ends up being an employee of a sponsor or such who swaps stuff out for us (perhaps with us sending them the hardware to swap with). Sponsor-provided stuff tends to have the bulk of the costs paid by sponsors. Gentoo-owned stuff tends to have the money come from Gentoo, which comes from our many donors (lots of individuals, and Google Summer of Code is a big source of income I believe even after expenses). Recently Gentoo has been kicking in for some of the costs at one of our sponsors, but they kick in a fair bit themselves. So, quite a bit of labor comes from volunteers. However, the "paid for" bit largely comes down to our sponsors, augmented by numerous small donations from within the community. All that said, I honestly don't consider the risk of one of our sponsors "censoring" us is all that likely unless Gentoo as a community really got out of hand (such that being associated with us were damaging to their reputations). The more realistic risk with our model is that individual sponsors can come and go - maybe a sponsor gets bought out or goes out of business or just is having hard times and can't afford to support us any longer. This happens on occasion, and obviously we try to be gracious about it since they ARE donors (usually they work with us on migration too). However, my sense is that most/all of our infra is hand-built servers running on bare metal, which means that moving services around involves a lot of labor. It isn't like copying a disk image to a new VM provider and cutting over DNS, let alone something like puppet/chef/ansible. As we build out new infra services (whether they be git, gitlab, or whatever) it would be really nice if the server configs (minus credentials) could be open. That would make it far easier for others to contribute to them, automate their deployment, and so on. There really shouldn't be any reason that somebody shouldn't be able to set up their own gentoo.org with everything but the domain name. Sure, we won't get there overnight, but it is a direction that makes sense. We just don't have the manpower to be excluding potential contributions. -- Rich