From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: <gentoo-project+bounces-7059-garchives=archives.gentoo.org@lists.gentoo.org> Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAFD4139083 for <garchives@archives.gentoo.org>; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:51:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 415BCE0F3D; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:51:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pg0-x22b.google.com (mail-pg0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C057DE0F2F; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:51:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pg0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id k134so7030845pga.3; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:51:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=L/bnagNthdyidsK/qWVWNI/nVGMnOFd010xM84mMYs8=; b=o6uridF72ay83Nklhr43FjUTkZLCdRS0O0wrycpvvrkqIEQhPduht5356UE/EXr49g Q3XNZdtzo8EopHge31SETRtO/XSCjlCojgkoPtsxgv+9VqSUJ068++VjeVgJxPKrs9YG Iw1+YVzbzfbkNk3lsvImYmLycUpoaLWZBgQ1T801aOYqwDsXZ2YMjXNcP94cnnpIut0Q gj1wb3+CrJ9kb3xB/4a3/rriWnO1IOIbJN3wqQCApVxek/4XOJA2L+j/HiB5Y2spA+G9 NEVFdobZT3hQnLrzpgb5/BVwfesjdDZkXSMpdEEx6QY1dtodn1TzUZPre2I7uEqeMwNy YhYQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=L/bnagNthdyidsK/qWVWNI/nVGMnOFd010xM84mMYs8=; b=p446R4NDM6ayIV7xjG925OlhtWyfqlRHcMyOBmULolCRpPBHqMKbNKlQKu/fW3fuFG mFUYkS2fTflTXjVzn8+pPz1ev/GblQfNJt4NPMbfRHlUV1sHvGBawuMMK0Z4IZWUEBK6 4G4+rmzphrPde3OyzLk1yaTMsycNZbpXpkTz2M7qLQD0V3/b6ppd/fPNNLferr9s09kF kGm83VMWCInaM9crPasuj/IUe7co+jeBkBB0KS8wbmH1pxdD+MN2eS2gx0SUcxXcdu4r SazY9GURabtjilRI5NboBwMlkFBjpGdZBP3nK85AK1rukQ/Q6BmKoBGoP7M+oyHYcPuo /FGg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX4FbJoHJB4gkY2tRA/1HOeX36njdI29WlWSGluL6iBrpF8xz1sk 0pM/BTnkmIk3txdEyM9zHMt6F4sm2v3UHbyf+VlrTw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMay7GfqRbT4ucglLvsklkGAP9wi9CCIyrhb1QznJh9YJ/QfWiAK1QRG8Dx1xSqbHuCCrphDOkJKQxUwLr68/cI= X-Received: by 10.99.110.203 with SMTP id j194mr11864860pgc.92.1512348700221; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:51:40 -0800 (PST) Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org> List-Help: <mailto:gentoo-project+help@lists.gentoo.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gentoo-project+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org> List-Subscribe: <mailto:gentoo-project+subscribe@lists.gentoo.org> List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list <gentoo-project.gentoo.org> X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: freemanrich@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.151.169 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:51:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <CAEdQ38HOdq1-48YP-1270pw3FN6W+Q3mvWYGw8wBG9GtDteyGA@mail.gmail.com> References: <1512256684.30000.48.camel@gentoo.org> <CAEdQ38HOdq1-48YP-1270pw3FN6W+Q3mvWYGw8wBG9GtDteyGA@mail.gmail.com> From: Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 19:51:39 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: VXiiB9fJf9m0hgFITwUep9pd6rE Message-ID: <CAGfcS_nX83=okx0vkrT22-8xd-kcyvBEt6pfyUtCapLGHo15BA@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] [RFC] Splitting developer-oriented and expert user mailing lists To: gentoo-project <gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org> Cc: gentoo-dev <gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Archives-Salt: 05419ef2-9a6f-4ecb-a7fd-40f00be6de6c X-Archives-Hash: cbc1dad0981492ca7e7e1342db2c4880 On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 7:37 PM, Matt Turner <mattst88@gentoo.org> wrote: > > With gentoo being a non-profit organization, an alternative way to > view it could be the trade-off of seeing developers / maintainers / > staff leave It isn't just the risk of leaving, but the risk of them never joining in the first place. If a flamewar goes back and forth, then it creates an environment where only people who like to participate in flamewars will want to join (thus creating a positive feedback loop). If a troll periodically posts and everybody ignores them, then it creates an environment where it seems as if the developers ignore the users (an outsider could mistake trolling for questions/feedback), and thus people will assume it is a toxic environment and not want to join. While I'm sure toxic coworkers are a problem in any organization, I suspect they're far more impactful when the organization effectively broadcasts their activity to the entire world. I'm all for free expression. That doesn't mean that Gentoo needs to expend its resources to broadcast messages that actually harm Gentoo, or provide a platform for people who have done egregious things (like unwanted gender-based attention, attacking people over disabilities, or whatever), whether the victims of such activities have been dragged through the mud publicly or not. -- Rich