From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D8651392EF for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2014 22:30:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A5E52E08A1; Fri, 4 Jul 2014 22:30:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-vc0-f171.google.com (mail-vc0-f171.google.com [209.85.220.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2AF9E08A0 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2014 22:30:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id id10so2034477vcb.30 for ; Fri, 04 Jul 2014 15:30:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=lDP0P8yprzuvmepYwzuQp5XV5FRvlZiDuGhkCocnxCM=; b=qU9CfIZ8yQExNCHXyimyzDiHF9FbO7ELG/7YfJi+Q48E27P4hPzs9fgZdrJ7bdnHji 1S94GNEe2NNsQPi4DaXTBTBu8zhCea2YVCa/n9x2qOEBQiOTvgiqPF9v5eM3K/qvD1+J SWKh6LMYIQl/XiH1JJCawGGSZUW4UOHjoq8LChvZLH1k+yUOh1A537Oa/k8revT+zTqY Ol8rP5AsXKyv+1qj+66aXUz6jWxKkNyKPALHXQhK1A8lATyaUxeeezpWpAxEss5SAKma p0vswUN7Lg4QV184L3ie7zt7MvzJ4uZS5TKIt+DzYJP2cyMeuYzHR/9tVW9Kj8Pc74th OTBA== Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.117.209 with SMTP id kg17mr9837089vdb.28.1404513044026; Fri, 04 Jul 2014 15:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Sender: freemanrich@gmail.com Received: by 10.52.72.19 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Jul 2014 15:30:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <539BD2E2.7030803@gentoo.org> <3677509.vVmt2iqRkA@kailua> <53B53E12.10209@opensource.dyc.edu> <1827087.o57vyRvkxh@kailua> <53B58E33.5010906@gentoo.org> <53B6834C.5050003@gentoo.org> Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 18:30:43 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: leaP6a4DkQvhM_l0o9SxkVVeqfU Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election From: Rich Freeman To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Archives-Salt: 6865a424-4e9e-4835-85bd-ebdfb77a65a6 X-Archives-Hash: b4caf14c2c5499d40604e3f9c4e397ec On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Denis Dupeyron wrote: > You are perfectly right to speak publicly. The point I was trying to > make in this email is very simple. The only good way of changing how a > team operates, for better or worse, is to join it. Ordering people > around without actually doing anything only works if you're the one > signing the paychecks. Nobody is issuing orders here. I only advocate for ComRel and Infra what I advocate for QA, and I've yet to hear anybody in QA complain about being ordered around by the Council, or anybody on it. When things get stirred up I sometimes check in with them, and it is more out of interest and care and a desire to help/support than any desire to boss anybody around. In my post I stated, "Please note that I'm not suggesting that anybody is really trying to keep secrets here - it is just easier to have a discussion and not write up minutes than it is to announce things on lists, and so things probably happen that way." The reason that I did this was that I wanted to express my concerns with the structural organization of Gentoo, and not the actual performance of the teams. QA was an easy fix because it had basically gone inactive. I think that the design of ComRel and Infra is prone to problems, but that doesn't mean that anything they do is guaranteed to fail. Bad algorithms can achieve good results, especially if they're run on good hardware, but that doesn't change the fact that under other circumstances they can fail. I'm certainly not the only one who has raised concerns with Gentoo's meta-structure. I believe one of our Trustee candidates also expressed an interest in trying to change things. In any case, I'm running for Council, and I think people have the right to know where I stand. That doesn't mean that I don't intend to be sensitive to the teams I'd potentially advocate interfering with, and I'd encourage ComRel/Infra members to express their own opinions on the issue. > > Have we reached a point where council members are such divas that they > can't even be told when they missed a perfectly good opportunity to > shut up? So, this really isn't helpful. My intent was to discuss an issue that I think is important. By all means disagree with me, even vigorously. However, I don't believe I've done anything to earn personal criticism in this thread. At no point did I tell anybody to withhold criticism of my ideas, or even of myself. However, I also don't think that your email really set the kind of tone that I, at least, like seeing on the lists. Nobody should be ashamed to speak up if they disagree with an idea, and they should be even less ashamed to speak up if they have an idea. Maybe making ComRel subordinate to the Council is a stupid idea, certain to doom Gentoo. I think it is more helpful to focus on the idea/argument. Or, just don't vote for me if you prefer. Or heck, just ping me and feel free to converse by email/IRC/etc. Honestly, I was torn between just letting this thread die without a response, or posting this. I post this mainly out of the concern that perhaps my original post communicated some kind of disagreement with the work being done in ComRel and Infra. That really was not my intent at all - I just think that our meta-structure can be improved. I know that is frustrating for any team to be criticized when the're composed of volunteers that are in all likelihood conscientiously just trying to do the best job that they can. Rich